Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 06:49, 10 July 2023

Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic: You must be logged-in to an extended confirmed account (granted automatically to accounts with 500 edits and an age of 30 days) You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances) Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Judaism Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Judaism-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JudaismWikipedia:WikiProject JudaismTemplate:WikiProject JudaismJudaism Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Israel Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Project Israel To Do: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Assess : Rate the Unassessed Israel-related articles and Unknown-importance Israel-related articles. Cleanup : Cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category and the tool's wiki page. Collaborate : Participate in WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration. Copyedit : Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005 Deletion sorting : Participate in discussions at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel. Expand : Ayala Procaccia, Diamond industry in Israel, Edna Arbel, Levin Kipnis, Rami Kleinstein, Sephardic Haredim, Zman Tel Aviv, Nachum Heiman, Public Defence (Israel), Prisoner of Zion, Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu, Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran, Pre-Modern Aliyah See also Articles needing translation from Hebrew Misplaced Pages. Geographical coordinates : Add geographic coordinates to Israel articles missing geocoordinate data. Infobox : Add infoboxes to Israel articles needing infoboxes. Maintain : See Israel articles needing attention. Map : See discussion at Module:Location map/data/Israel. Add maps to articles in Misplaced Pages requested maps in Israel. NPOV : Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries Photo : Add pictures to articles in Misplaced Pages requested photographs in Israel. Stubs : See Israel stubs. Update : Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People Other : Translate to Hebrew : David Bar-Hayim, Guy Bavli, and Guy Oseary. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Palestine Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Misplaced Pages. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Sociology Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sociology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of sociology on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SociologyWikipedia:WikiProject SociologyTemplate:WikiProject Sociologysociology Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Politics Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Possible sources

MIT Press 2021 ISBN 10:0262542943 Genomic Citizenship: The Molecularization of Identity in the Contemporary Middle East McGonigle, Ian Ch 2 The “nature” of Israeli citizenship

"Population analysis by geneticists has led to an unresolved debate over Jewish origins (Abu El-Haj 2012; Elhaik 2012; Kohler 2014). Geneticists have begun to describe the genetic basis for common ancestry of the whole of the Jewish population (Behar et al. 2010), even though the historical claims that are entangled with these scientific studies are still contested. One of the most contentious claims made is that European Jews are descended from converts to Judaism from the Khazar Empire, which covered much of Eastern Europe during the second half of the first century CE (Koestler 1976; Sand 2009; Wheelwright 2013). Some rabbis and several population geneticists instead claim that there is a direct line of descent connecting most European Jews to the biblical land of Israel (Sand 2009).2 But Israeli historian Shlomo Sand argues, “The Jews have always comprised significant religious communities that appeared and settled in various parts of the world, rather than an ethnos that shared a single origin and wandered in a permanent exile” (2009, 22) Selfstudier (talk) 17:52, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Title

Maybe Zionism and Jewish genetics? Selfstudier (talk) 18:10, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

The word "race" in the title gives a wider scope - population genetics in this way didn't begin until after Watson and Crick in the 50s. Prior to the 1940s the Zionist discourse of this nature was about race. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:20, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

NPOV Issues

This article has multiple NPOV issues:

1. It largely ignores the widely held conventional view, which is that the majority of Jewish ethnic groups have common ancestry from the ancient Middle East. This view is currently supported by the majority of genetic studies, as well as recent research linking the major Jewish groups to ancient Canaanite DNA and other modern Levantine populations.
   
2. It uses a questionable 1974 article (Haddad, Hassan S. (1974). "The Biblical Bases of Zionist Colonialism". Journal of Palestine Studies. . 3 (4): 98-99) whose relevance for the topic, reliability and neutrality are currently being discussed on another article, Zionism, (see Talk:Zionism#Question) after the same editor added it there and was immediately challenged; Here, it is added without offering any opposing viewpoints, ignoring the issues brought up in the aforementioned discussion. Tombah (talk) 19:02, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Tombah. On 1., the article says "It is likely that many modern Jews have at least one ancestral line from Levant". What more do you want?

On 2. if you think the article is "questionable" I suggest you raise it at RSN. On the other talk discussion you are referring to, it was established that Haddad was a distinguished professor at Saint Xavier University. Anyway, it is being used in a different way here, so if you wish to oppose its use here you will need to explain. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:17, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

For point #1, no sources have been presented establishing this claim of a "widely held conventional view", while, on the contrary, the page contains several sources that establish quite a separate and contrasting narrative. If there is an alternative perspective, source it. In the discussion of Haddad, that material is unbalanced likewise simply calls for other sources to be added to balance it. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:26, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

For point #1, The ancestral connection between Jews and the ancient Middle East is supported by a vast body of genetic scientific research. This topic is already covered in depth in our articles on Genetic studies on Jews with many RS mentioning shared ancestry derived from the ancient Middle East; the Middle Eastern descent of Ashkenazis in particular, totally ignored by this article; genetic heritage of the Canaanites that lives on in Jewish and non-Jewish Levantine populations; similarity to other Levantine groups, with articles touching on the relations between Palestinians and Jewish divisions (here), the connection between Lebanese, Palestinians and Sephardic Jews, described in one article as "three Near-Eastern populations sharing a common geographic origin", Samaritans and Jews, etc. You ask me to demonstrate that 1+1 is 2.

For #2, do you claim that the view that Zionism is colonialism is universally accepted? We all know it is one point of view among many, usually held by anti-Zionists. That makes it problematic to base large parts of this article on that source, and that is a violation of WP:NPOV. Tombah (talk) 11:15, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

References

1. Carmi S, Hui KY, Kochav E, Liu X, Xue J, Grady F, Guha S, Upadhyay K, Ben-Avraham D, Mukherjee S, Bowen BM, Thomas T, Vijai J, Cruts M, Froyen G, Lambrechts D, Plaisance S, Van Broeckhoven C, Van Damme P, Van Marck H, Barzilai N, Darvasi A, Offit K, Bressman S, Ozelius LJ, Peter I, Cho JH, Ostrer H, Atzmon G, Clark LN, Lencz T, Pe'er I (September 2014). "Sequencing an Ashkenazi reference panel supports population-targeted personal genomics and illuminates Jewish and European origins". Nature Communications. 5: 4835. Bibcode:2014NatCo...5.4835C. doi:10.1038/ncomms5835. PMC 4164776. PMID 25203624.
2. Agranat-Tamir L, Waldman S, Martin MS, Gokhman D, Mishol N, Eshel T, Cheronet O, Rohland N, Mallick S, Adamski N, Lawson AM, Mah M, Michel MM, Oppenheimer J, Stewardson K, Candilio F, Keating D, Gamarra B, Tzur S, Novak M, Kalisher R, Bechar S, Eshed V, Kennett DJ, Faerman M, Yahalom-Mack N, Monge JM, Govrin Y, Erel Y, Yakir B, Pinhasi R, Carmi S, Finkelstein I, Reich D (May 2020). "The Genomic History of the Bronze Age Southern Levant". Cell. 181 (5): 1153–1154. doi:10.1016/j.cell.2020.04.024. PMID 32470400.
3. Lucotte, Gérard; Mercier, Géraldine (1 January 2003). "Y-chromosome DNA haplotypes in Jews: comparisons with Lebanese and Palestinians". Genet. Test. 7 (1): 67–71. doi:10.1089/109065703321560976. PMID 12820706.
4. Shen P, Lavi T, Kivisild T, Chou V, Sengun D, Gefel D, Shpirer I, Woolf E, Hillel J, Feldman MW, Oefner PJ (September 2004). "Reconstruction of patrilineages and matrilineages of Samaritans and other Israeli populations from Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA sequence variation". Human Mutation. 24 (3): 248–60. doi:10.1002/humu.20077. PMID 15300852. S2CID 1571356.

@Tombah:

1. The point is already made in the article. It is made dispassionately, not described as "conventional" as you do, because we would need a source for this.

2. The source is used for just one sentence, and how now been watered down with in-line attribution.

Onceinawhile (talk) 06:31, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Comment

Interestingly enough, according to one article, While several non-Palestinian writers in the Arab world included the Israelites among the ancient Semitic peoples, Palestinian writers rejected this notion, since it might have given some credence to the Jewish link to Palestine. They resolved this conflict by denying any historical link between the ancient Hebrews and modern Jews, describing the latter as descendants of the Caucasian Khazar nation that had adopted Judaism during the eighth century, or as an amalgamation of people from various ethnic groups who had embraced Judaism in the course of the past two thousand years. Litvak, Meir (1994). "A Palestinian Past: National Construction and Reconstruction". History and Memory. 6 (2): 24–56. ISSN 0935-560X. I'm (almost) surprised to see elements of Palestinian propaganda on Misplaced Pages as well. Tombah (talk) 11:26, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:FORUM, a "Comment" in response to what exactly? Place this in context of improvement to the article, please. Selfstudier (talk) 11:52, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Comment on this piece as a whole, which is starting to resemble not only an anti-Zionist essay but also starts to bore a faint smell of antisemitism due to enormous cherry-picking of sources and denial of evidence, now even claiming that all studies involved with Jews should be rejected because the reliability of the study might be impacted by "Zionist" attitudes. Tombah (talk) 06:48, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Recent revert

@Drsmoo: please explain this revert, with your edit comment "Not in source, the phrase “Jewish scientific racism” could be construed as antisemitic":

• OLD TEXT: "The connection between Zionism and early 20th century Jewish scientific racism and, since the 1950s, genetic science, has been widely studied by historians and anthropologists."
• Drsmoo TEXT: "The connection between Zionism and early 20th century genetic science, has been widely studied by historians and anthropologists."
• ORIGINAL SOURCE QUOTE: "Historians and anthropologists have critically examined how the structuring assumptions of Jewish race science in early-twentieth-century Europe and North America, and their relationship to Zionist nationalism, reverberate within the genetic studies of Jewish populations by Israeli scientists from the 1950s to the present."

Your edit changed the meaning - there was no "early 20th century genetic science" relating to this topic. Early 20th century race science is one topic, and genetic studies from the 1950s to the present, is another.

And our article scientific racism states that the term "race science" (used in the original source above) is a synonym used by its proponents. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:55, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

The source doesn’t call the studies racist, nor does it call them pseudoscientific. The phrase “Jewish Scientific Racism”, which seems to have been invented in this article, sounds eerily similar to the Nazi term “Jewish physics”. I will undo my revert now per 1RR, but will remove it again once ruled permit. Drsmoo (talk) 23:32, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Shall we just change "scientific racism" to "race science" then? Onceinawhile (talk) 23:44, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes Drsmoo (talk) 00:15, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Ruppin

• There are quite a number of views that emphasized Jews as a mixed 'race'. Herzl proposed that. See the Mauschel page.
• A key thinker here was Arthur Ruppin, whose views I've sketched out here.

Nishidani (talk) 23:11, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Interesting, thanks. Two points for additional sub-topics in this article come to mind reading that:

(1) the classification of Jewish groups by early Zionists could be covered here (e.g. Anat Leibler, “Disciplining Ethnicity: Social Sorting Intersects with Political Demography in Israel’s Pre-State Period,” Social Studies of Science 44, no. 2 (2014), p. 273.); and

(2) Zionist views of Palestinian race / genetics could fit here too.

Onceinawhile (talk) 23:51, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Misplaced Pages talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by reviewer, closed by Narutolovehinata5 (talk) 14:43, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment or view
• Article history

• ... that the genetic origin of modern Jews is considered important within Zionism, as it seeks to provide a historical basis for the belief that descendants of biblical Jews have "returned"? Source: McGonigle, Ian V. (2021). Genomic Citizenship: The Molecularization of Identity in the Contemporary Middle East. MIT Press (originally a Harvard PhD Thesis, published March 2018). p. 36 (c.f. p.54 of PhD). ISBN 978-0-262-36669-4. Retrieved 2023-07-08. The stakes in the debate over Jewish origins are high, however, since the founding narrative of the Israeli state is based on exilic 'return.' If European Jews have descended from converts, the Zionist project falls prey to the pejorative categorization as 'settler colonialism' pursued under false assumptions, playing into the hands of Israel's critics and fueling the indignation of the displaced and stateless Palestinian people. The politics of 'Jewish genetics' is consequently fierce. But irrespective of philosophical questions of the indexical power or validity of genetic tests for Jewishness, and indeed the historical basis of a Jewish population 'returning' to the Levant, the Realpolitik of Jewishness as a measurable biological category could also impinge on access to basic rights and citizenship within Israel.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Gracie Graves and the Kids from Room 402

Created by Onceinawhile (talk). Self-nominated at 07:35, 9 July 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Zionism, race and genetics; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Article is new enough and long enough. However, it's the subject of a POV flag and there's ongoing debate on the talk page about the article's WP:NPOV. Indeed, the article's (lengthy) lede section largely pulls from 2 journal articles that seem to not represent scholarly consensus to frame the discussion. Hook is interested, but the cited source seems to be one scholar's opinion, rather than a fact. Would suggest waiting to have more editors, especially with more specialized subject matter expertise than I, weigh in on the matter at hand in the article. Longhornsg (talk) 08:07, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi Longhornsg thanks for your comment. Since you have an interest in the subject of Jewish History (WikiProject), please could you comment on the article talk page and help develop the article there? Your comments above seem intended to cast doubt (“seem to not… seem to be”), which is helpful if you are willing to provide the evidence underpinning your uncertainty. Onceinawhile (talk) 11:43, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Article is a transparent attempt to portray studies on Jewish Genetics as "Zionist" and thereby ideological/untrustworthy, without any source actually describing the studes as such. The article itself is full of Synth and assertions that are not actually in the sources. The article should be deleted, and certainly not featured on a "Did you know". Drsmoo (talk) 13:54, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Note: the above editor has been adding various tags to the article. When challenged to explain the above claims he wrote: Allegations of bias and synth in a wikipedia article are not substantiated by scholarly reliable sources, they are an individual judgement. The observation that an article combines disparate ideas to push an original viewpoint is not something that would be sourced. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:07, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

After the allegations of bias were substantiated, the above editor and a supporting editor asked me to provide "sources" to prove that the article was biased/Synth. As if it has been subject to a scholarly peer review and JSTOR had articles about this wiki page. Drsmoo (talk) 16:22, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

I archived reference to this nomination on the article's (very crowded) talk page as I assumed the conversation was over but that was reverted as it has not been closed. I oppose the nomination for the moment. The article is very unstable and has been under heavy dispute. Although the contention is starting to quieten, the article is nowhere near consensus-approved enough to feature. There has been a conversation for nearly two months over whether it needs to be renamed, for example. BobFromBrockley (talk) 08:51, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

• The article's neutrality has been in dispute for over a month at this point, and the prior reviewer's assessment still seems largely correct. It reads like an essay on a particular aspect of race science, and issues are still being identified (for example, an editor just today was removing close paraphrasing from sources). The talk page still has active disputes regarding the content and presentation of perspectives. All together, I doubt that this article is "reasonably complete and not some sort of work in progress". Not presentable and given the time spent already, I find it unlikely that it will become presentable in a reasonable time frame for DYK. — Wug·a·po·des 21:51, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Anti-Zionism and the scale of the modern Jewish connection

Reading some lower quality media on this matter, there seems to be a common strawman argument along the following lines:

• Statement: "Modern Jews may not be primarily descended from ancient Israelites"
• Response: "You are denying there is a connection between modern Jews and the Israelites"

"May not be primarily descended from" and "there is connection between" are very different thresholds.

We must be careful to keep an eye on this nuance. It is not tenable to suggest that mainstream Palestinians or anti-Zionists deny all "connection" - it is patently clear that a connection exists, culturally and probably biologically. The only debate is over the scale of this connection, and in particular whether this connection to the land is stronger than the connection that the Palestinians have.

Onceinawhile (talk) 06:47, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

• All unassessed articles
• Start-Class Judaism articles
• Low-importance Judaism articles
• Start-Class Israel-related articles
• Low-importance Israel-related articles
• WikiProject Israel articles
• Start-Class Palestine-related articles
• Low-importance Palestine-related articles
• WikiProject Palestine articles
• Start-Class sociology articles
• Low-importance sociology articles
• Start-Class politics articles
• Low-importance politics articles
• WikiProject Politics articles