Talk:Empress Myeongseong: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 06:45, 12 July 2023 editRenamed user 1oj3saabam (talk \| contribs)77,173 edits →Renaming article: ReplyTag: Reply ← Previous edit		Revision as of 07:19, 12 July 2023 edit undoRenamed user 1oj3saabam (talk \| contribs)77,173 edits downgrading article to C; so much of it is unreadably poor and unsourcedNext edit →
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Eulmi Incident grammar and style issues

There are numerous grammatical errors and style issues in the Eulmi Incident section. A bit of it will require familiarity with Misplaced Pages style standards, which I don't have.

anachronism

There seems to be some unacknowledged time-travel involved here: "By age 20, the queen consort began to wander outside her apartments at Changgyeong Palace and play an active part in politics in spite of the Daewongun and various high officials who viewed her as becoming meddlesome. The political struggle between the queen consort and Heungseon Daewongun became public when the son she bore died prematurely 4 days after birth. Heungseon Daewongun publicly accused her of being unable to bear a healthy male child, while she suspected her father-in-law of foulplay through the ginseng emetic treatment he had brought her. The Daewongun then directed Gojong to conceive through a concubine, Lee Gwi-in from the Yeongbo Hall (영보당귀인 이씨), and on 16 April 1868, she gave birth to Prince Wanhwa (완화군), whom the Daewongun entitled as crown prince."

When Queen Min was 20, it would have been 1871. The "concieve-an-heir-via-a-concubine" directive must have happened no later than early 1867.

When did QMin give birth to her son? - it could have been no later than early 1867, within two years of the marriage, when she could have been no more than just turned 17. Was father-in-law on her case already at that stage?

Much further down the page, we find: "Her first pregnancy five years after marriage ended in despair and humiliation when her infant son died shortly after birth." This would have been 1871 or 1872. If this is the case, then dad-in-law's directive could not have been in response to the death of Min's first son.

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Title

Our article on the Korean Empire implies it was established in 1897, and this person seems to have died before that. This leads me to suspect most English-language reliable sources probably call her "Queen Min" (Donald Keene's Emperor of Japan: Meiji and His World, 1852–1912 definitely does). Is there any reason we don't? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:42, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Split proposed

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to be bold and split toobigtokale (talk) 05:53, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi, I propose that we split off the Assassination section into a separate article.

For size, the current article is pretty long (as indicated by template on page as of 10 July 2023). As per XTools, the number of bytes of readable prose in the article is 55,665. It fits in the "May need to be divided" category of WP:SIZESPLIT.

But I have more arguments beyond size:

It seems like a separate-enough topic to me, and the Korea wiki agrees . The assassination itself is surrounded by additional significant controversy that could/should be discussed in greater detail in a separate article, and not on the article for the Empress.
- Anecdotal, but I've when I've written on Korea-related pages, I've needed to refer to the assassination specifically on a number of occasions, but not the Empress herself.
The current article has a lot of issues; fixing them is honestly daunting even for me because of its sheer length (especially if you include the assassination portion). The full article is probably a 20-40 minute read; I'm betting the vast majority of people don't read much of the body because they're put off by the length and mixed quality.
- The assassination portion I'd argue is somewhat better off; if it's split into its own article, that article wouldn't be so rough.
- In other words, splitting could help compartmentalize areas that need fixing and make it less daunting of a task. People would actually read more of each article, so potentially more fixes

Thanks! First time doing a split proposal like this, lmk if I did something wrong toobigtokale (talk) 23:41, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Almost forgot: Title.

I'm open to ideas, but will explain my reasoning below:

For the title of the new article, I think either "Assassination of Empress Myeongseong" or "Eulmi Incident" could work. An alternative is "Assassination of Queen Min", which but I think consistency with the title of this article is important.

Research

Google ngrams (case insensitive)

Google Scholar (exact string match, case insensitive):

Assassination of Empress Myeongseong: 46 results
Eulmi Incident: 69 results
Assassination of Queen Min: 258 results

Google Books (exact string match, case insensitive):

Assassination of Empress Myeongseong: 539 results
Eulmi Incident: 313 results
Assassination of Queen Min: 1930 results

If anything, "Assassination of Queen Min" seems most common. Anecdotally, this fits what I've seen too. However, as per WP:CONSUB, if we assume the title "Empress Myeongseong" for this article is appropriate (idk, haven't researched this) then we should do "Assassination of Empress Myeongseong".

I personally prefer "Assassination of Empress Myeongseong". It's more descriptive; "Eulmi Incident" is jargony even in Korean. toobigtokale (talk) 00:00, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Tbh I don't think you're gonna get much resistance (or much discussion here at all). I would suggest that you be WP:BOLD and do it. As for the title, I generally believe it's important that it be consistent with the article title here, though that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. :3 F4U (they /it) 05:04, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks as always for the input. This is a relatively more popular article than the Kim Gu one so wanted to play it safe. I'll go ahead and make the change. toobigtokale (talk) 05:49, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Renaming article

Hi, I did some research and I think the article should be named "Queen Min" instead of "Empress Myeongseong".

Reasoning:

See WP:TITLE. The most WP:COMMONNAME in reliable English publications is "Queen Min" on Google Ngram, Google Books (12,100 vs 489), and Google Scholar (1,420 vs 242). It also matches the common title formats for other Joseon queens.

I'll go ahead and make the change, but please respond if disagree. toobigtokale (talk) 06:13, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Ok actually nvm, I just saw the dumpster fire that is Talk:Empress_Myeongseong/Archive_2#Requested_move

I disagree with most of the oppose arguments made in there, but think the point about name overlap is a valid concern. Anecdotal but I still think "Queen Min" is way more common than "Empress Myeongseong" in Eng lang literature. I'll hold back, not really looking to dive into the weeds of that rn.

Complicates things a little for the upcoming assassination section split. "Assassination of Queen Min" genuinely seems to be more common than "Assassination of Empress Myeongseong", although maybe some other "Queen Min" has been assassinated before (googling doesn't seem to show that).

Regardless, based on WP:COMMONNAME and the Volgograd part of WP:CONSUB I think there's a reasonably strong argument to use "Queen Min" for that article. But there's some wiggle room.

I'm going to name it "Empress Myeongseong" for now, but I'm very much on the fence. I think not making it consistent will just make it confusing to the average reader who doesn't know/care about Misplaced Pages policies. And there hasn't been much momentum to rename this article to "Queen Min" in recent years, idk if that'll change and I'm not looking to be the changer. toobigtokale (talk) 06:45, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

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