Talk:Seewoosagur Ramgoolam: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 17:31, 19 July 2023 editAdamantine123 (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers28,941 editsNo edit summaryTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Advanced mobile edit← Previous edit		Revision as of 11:51, 23 July 2023 edit undoVaroon2542 (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users1,485 edits →Recent use of Indian express source: ReplyTag: Reply Next edit →
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	:::{{Talk quote\|21The permanent confusion between varna and jati blurs the classification. Thus the majority of Hindu Mauritians call themselves Vaish, rather than Koiri or Kurmi, more precise but less known levels of identification (especially among non-Hindus). In doing so, Mauritian usage differs from Indian usage, where the jati remains more relevant on a daily basis, and where the “Vaishya” never form a majority. In addition, the subdivisions into surnames and lineages (gotra)14 complicate identification. The Gwalbansh lineage of the jati Ahir, for example, is claimed and perceived as a caste. General discourses also confuse caste with geographical origin (the “Bengali caste”), community origin (the “Marathi caste”) and even ethnic origin (the “Hindu caste”, even the “Chinese caste”)15. Finally, the Brahmin category is reserved in Mauritius for those acting as priests.}}		:::{{Talk quote\|21The permanent confusion between varna and jati blurs the classification. Thus the majority of Hindu Mauritians call themselves Vaish, rather than Koiri or Kurmi, more precise but less known levels of identification (especially among non-Hindus). In doing so, Mauritian usage differs from Indian usage, where the jati remains more relevant on a daily basis, and where the “Vaishya” never form a majority. In addition, the subdivisions into surnames and lineages (gotra)14 complicate identification. The Gwalbansh lineage of the jati Ahir, for example, is claimed and perceived as a caste. General discourses also confuse caste with geographical origin (the “Bengali caste”), community origin (the “Marathi caste”) and even ethnic origin (the “Hindu caste”, even the “Chinese caste”)15. Finally, the Brahmin category is reserved in Mauritius for those acting as priests.}}
	:::{{U\|Varoon2542}}, this is what one of your source say, it talks about distinction between Varna and caste on Mauritius and India. But this doesn't say anything about caste of Seeosagar Ramgoolam. You are basically doing ]. Joining two sources to come at a particular conclusion. Please, provide '''relevant quote''' for your addition.--] (]) 17:31, 19 July 2023 (UTC)		:::{{U\|Varoon2542}}, this is what one of your source say, it talks about distinction between Varna and caste on Mauritius and India. But this doesn't say anything about caste of Seeosagar Ramgoolam. You are basically doing ]. Joining two sources to come at a particular conclusion. Please, provide '''relevant quote''' for your addition.--] (]) 17:31, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
			::::'''Source n°1'''
			::::The anthropological study by the French professor states
			::::''Depuis l’indépendance, le pouvoir politique est effectivement monopolisé par les descendants d’engagés indiens (notamment bhojpuris hindous de caste Vaish)'' = "Since independence, political power has been effectively monopolised by the descendents of indentured indians (notably bhojpuri hindus of the Vaish caste"
			::::''Caste notamment du premier dirigeant de l'île Maurice indépendante, Seewoosagur Ramgoolam, père de l'actuel Premier Ministre.''= "Notably the caste of the first leader of independent Mauritius, Seewoosagur Ramgoolam, father of the actual Prime Minister" (The prime minister at the time of the study was Navinchandra Ramgoolam
			::::Thus there is consensus on Seewoosagur Ramgoolam being Vaish
			::::'''Source n°2'''
			::::Here is an extract by the study published by the University of Mauritius
			::::''2.8.4 Caste importance in political authority
			::::The Vaish caste population is the largest and thus probably to see the choice of Prime Minister of the island. Not solely is it expected that any future Prime Minister is going to be a Hindu, however conjointly from the Vaish community. This was the case with the previous one, the late Sir Seewoosagur Ramgoolam (whom was from the Kurmi), succeeding Prime Minister, Aneeroodh Jugnauth (who is from Ahir), followed by The Honourable Navinchandra Ramgoolam.''
			::::Source n°3
			::::The Indian Express writes
			::::'''''Papers supplied by authorities of the island country''' showed that Ramgoolam hailed from the backward "Kurmi" caste—which made him a caste fellow of Chief Minister Nitish Kumar''
			::::Only the indian source mentions the term "backward" and is additional confirmation of the "Kurmi" subgroup
			::::I would also like to point out that the hypertext of "Kurmi' sends to "Kushwara" as there is no article on "Kurmi" and in the "Kushwara" article, it is clearly mentioned that the subgroups include "Koeris". So all in all, every subgroup gets mentioned in one way or the other.
			::::'''For the sake of clarity, this is what I asnwered to you on my talk page'''
			::::''And how did you decide that only one source is reliable?
			::::The sources you are criticising are mauritian sources and the one you are backing is an indian one. What is this? '''Indian imperialism?'''
			::::Should I remind you that the article is on a MAURITIAN statesman?
			::::I'm saying this for the last time. Indian constitutional provisions have no relevancy in Mauritius. There are no forward, backward, scheduled caste, schedules tribe in Mauritian law, societal discourse, anywhere. Just because one clueless indian journalist used one of those terms, doesn't make it more relevant in the mauritian context.
			::::If you knew anything about Mauritius, you would have known that in Mauritius what you indians call forward castes are termed "Grand nations" and what you call backward castes are called "Ti nations" but you don't speak Mauritian creole, do you? What do you exactly know about Mauritius?
			::::One of the sources I inserted is the only comprehensive research work on the issue of castes in Mauritius. It was done by a french professor and it's available in English. The second one is by a Mauritian researcher. Give them a read
			::::BTW, you are not only edit warring, you are also '''removing sources that go against your narrative''' which is dishonest and malicious
			::::If you want to disprove my point then go find a Mauritian article that makes reference to indian terminology in Mauritius. Feel free to learn french fast to read "]" or you could read some of the articles published in English by "]"
			::::I don't care much about your threats. If you wish to have me banned, move the issue on the relevant page and let us see what the administrators think."
			::::I don't have any trust in you. You are clearly editing on ideological lines'' ] (]) 11:51, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

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Knighthood

One of my students recently brought me a coin from Mauritius that has an image of Seewoosagur Ramgoolam on it. He is listed in the inscription as "Doctor The Right Honourable Sir Seewoosagur Ramgoolam KT". Does this mean that Seewoosagur Ramgoolam was a Knight of the Order of the Thistle, or is it meant to be Kt.?--Evadb 12:54, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Scratch that...I found the entry in the London Gazette HERE. It looks like it is a regular knighthood.--Evadb 13:04, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

This needs formatting

This needs to be redone in the manner of other articles on politicians. This article is not appropriate, updated nor enough to describe Sir Ramgoolam as he is the father of the nation of Mauritius. I am going to take care of it but it shall take few days and weeks to update properly. Can anyone help to find sources for this article? Pritish.Seeboo (talk · contribs)

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Recent use of Indian express source

Varoon2542, your edit summary and ground, on which you are reverting things are not appropriate. You are not providing reliable source to back what you are writing there. The two sources other than Indian express, which you put there are not saying anything clearly and I guess are not reliable. The Indian express source says something and as per WP: STICKTOSOURCE, you need to follow it. The ground that Indian constitutional provision are not applicable in Mauritius is not appropriate for removal of sourced content.-Admantine123 (talk) 10:40, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

I also observed that you added a journal in non English language, which is not saying anything about their caste. Yet, you are doing WP: Synthesis to proove your point.-Admantine123 (talk) 11:43, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Varoon2542, can you provide the English translation of the source (relevant quote) you are referring to? If it contains what you are adding, it should be included with what other sources say.-Admantine123 (talk) 17:19, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

21The permanent confusion between varna and jati blurs the classification. Thus the majority of Hindu Mauritians call themselves Vaish, rather than Koiri or Kurmi, more precise but less known levels of identification (especially among non-Hindus). In doing so, Mauritian usage differs from Indian usage, where the jati remains more relevant on a daily basis, and where the “Vaishya” never form a majority. In addition, the subdivisions into surnames and lineages (gotra)14 complicate identification. The Gwalbansh lineage of the jati Ahir, for example, is claimed and perceived as a caste. General discourses also confuse caste with geographical origin (the “Bengali caste”), community origin (the “Marathi caste”) and even ethnic origin (the “Hindu caste”, even the “Chinese caste”)15. Finally, the Brahmin category is reserved in Mauritius for those acting as priests.

Varoon2542, this is what one of your source say, it talks about distinction between Varna and caste on Mauritius and India. But this doesn't say anything about caste of Seeosagar Ramgoolam. You are basically doing WP: SYNTHESIS. Joining two sources to come at a particular conclusion. Please, provide relevant quote for your addition.--Admantine123 (talk) 17:31, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Source n°1

The anthropological study by the French professor states

Depuis l’indépendance, le pouvoir politique est effectivement monopolisé par les descendants d’engagés indiens (notamment bhojpuris hindous de caste Vaish) = "Since independence, political power has been effectively monopolised by the descendents of indentured indians (notably bhojpuri hindus of the Vaish caste"

Caste notamment du premier dirigeant de l'île Maurice indépendante, Seewoosagur Ramgoolam, père de l'actuel Premier Ministre.= "Notably the caste of the first leader of independent Mauritius, Seewoosagur Ramgoolam, father of the actual Prime Minister" (The prime minister at the time of the study was Navinchandra Ramgoolam

Thus there is consensus on Seewoosagur Ramgoolam being Vaish

Source n°2

Here is an extract by the study published by the University of Mauritius

2.8.4 Caste importance in political authority

The Vaish caste population is the largest and thus probably to see the choice of Prime Minister of the island. Not solely is it expected that any future Prime Minister is going to be a Hindu, however conjointly from the Vaish community. This was the case with the previous one, the late Sir Seewoosagur Ramgoolam (whom was from the Kurmi), succeeding Prime Minister, Aneeroodh Jugnauth (who is from Ahir), followed by The Honourable Navinchandra Ramgoolam.

Source n°3

The Indian Express writes

Papers supplied by authorities of the island country showed that Ramgoolam hailed from the backward "Kurmi" caste—which made him a caste fellow of Chief Minister Nitish Kumar

Only the indian source mentions the term "backward" and is additional confirmation of the "Kurmi" subgroup

I would also like to point out that the hypertext of "Kurmi' sends to "Kushwara" as there is no article on "Kurmi" and in the "Kushwara" article, it is clearly mentioned that the subgroups include "Koeris". So all in all, every subgroup gets mentioned in one way or the other.

For the sake of clarity, this is what I asnwered to you on my talk page

And how did you decide that only one source is reliable?

The sources you are criticising are mauritian sources and the one you are backing is an indian one. What is this? Indian imperialism?

Should I remind you that the article is on a MAURITIAN statesman?

I'm saying this for the last time. Indian constitutional provisions have no relevancy in Mauritius. There are no forward, backward, scheduled caste, schedules tribe in Mauritian law, societal discourse, anywhere. Just because one clueless indian journalist used one of those terms, doesn't make it more relevant in the mauritian context.

If you knew anything about Mauritius, you would have known that in Mauritius what you indians call forward castes are termed "Grand nations" and what you call backward castes are called "Ti nations" but you don't speak Mauritian creole, do you? What do you exactly know about Mauritius?

One of the sources I inserted is the only comprehensive research work on the issue of castes in Mauritius. It was done by a french professor and it's available in English. The second one is by a Mauritian researcher. Give them a read

BTW, you are not only edit warring, you are also removing sources that go against your narrative which is dishonest and malicious

If you want to disprove my point then go find a Mauritian article that makes reference to indian terminology in Mauritius. Feel free to learn french fast to read "Le Mauricien" or you could read some of the articles published in English by "L'Express"

I don't care much about your threats. If you wish to have me banned, move the issue on the relevant page and let us see what the administrators think."

I don't have any trust in you. You are clearly editing on ideological lines Varoon2542 (talk) 11:51, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

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