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::::::Neither Rossoliński nor Rudling were researching the "anti-Polish" action of UPA or making any kind of their own calculations. Motyka's 2011 ''Od rzezi wołyńskiej do akcji Wisła'' is the most recent of Motyka's calculations. ] (]) 14:57, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
::::::Neither Rossoliński nor Rudling were researching the "anti-Polish" action of UPA or making any kind of their own calculations. Motyka's 2011 ''Od rzezi wołyńskiej do akcji Wisła'' is the most recent of Motyka's calculations. ] (]) 14:57, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
:::::::Is there any way you could give a more detailed summary of what he actually said, perhaps a translation of a direct quotation that we could include in a footnote? I believe it was published in English last year. It would be verify that scholars agree it is definitive compared to other texts. ] (]) 15:30, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
:::::::Is there any way you could give a more detailed summary of what he actually said, perhaps a translation of a direct quotation that we could include in a footnote? I believe it was published in English last year. It would be verify that scholars agree it is definitive compared to other texts. ] (]) 15:30, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
::::::::Sure; in my translation:
::::::::''It is not easy to give the number of people who were victims of all these events. This is not the place to discuss the rich literature on the subject and the interesting discussion accompanying the disputes on the subject. Let us point out that the largest number of Poles suffered death in Volhynia. According to the findings of Władysław and Ewa Siemaszko, in 1943 at least at least 33,000 Poles, of whom about 19,000 are known by name. The total number of those killed at the hands of Ukrainian nationalists there may be in the range of 40 to as many as 60 thousand people. In Eastern Galicia, estimates of of 30-40 thousand Polish victims, while in the lands of present-day Poland 6-8 thousand Poles perished.''
::::::::''In light of the numbers cited, it seems that Polish losses as a result of the UPA's actions probably amounted to about 100 thousand dead (with which is more likely to be slightly less, rather than more than 100 thousand). Any higher numbers quoted - 150 or even 200 thousand victims - are not are confirmed by any serious scientific studies, and their frequent appearance in the media can probably only be explained by a the desire to create a sensation.''
::::::::''Let us note that the vast majority of Polish victims fell before the conclusion of the AK-WiN and UPA agreements in the spring of 1945 (from the meeting in the vicinity of Ruda Różaniecka until the end of 1947 died at the hands of the Ukrainian underground in Poland about 3,000 people, in large part soldiers of the Polish Army, WOP and KBW). This shows how important for the Polish historical memory is the first stage of the conflict.
::::::::''Much controversy surrounds the assessment of Ukrainian losses. Ten years ago, probably as the first Polish historian, I tried to estimate them. To the best of my knowledge at the time, I concluded that 15,000-20,000 Ukrainians were killed as a result of Polish actions. Today, in light of the latest data, I would be inclined to lower the number of Ukrainian victims somewhat. Probably 2,000 to 3,000 Ukrainians were killed at the Polish hand in Volhynia (not counting those killed by auxiliary police). In Eastern Galicia, 1-2 thousand Ukrainians were killed. The situation was completely different in the lands of present-day Poland. More Ukrainians than Poles were killed there in 1943-1947, probably 8-10 thousand (3-4 thousand by the summer of 1944 and 5-6 thousand in the period 1944-1947). The total would give a figure of 10-11 thousand to 15 thousand killed. Again, giving higher numbers is not supported by any scientific research. Let's emphasize it clearly - the numbers of 30, 50 or even 70 thousand killed Ukrainians found in Ukrainian textbooks are simply taken "from the ceiling."'' ] (]) 16:29, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
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A major article section surveys estimates of 10,000 to 30,000 Ukrainian dead among victims, yet they are absent from the infobox, which treats the subject as a one-sided attack and not a conflict with mass killing of civilians by more than one side. Even if that were deemed acceptable, the text tells us that a very large number of Ukrainians were among the victims of UPA, but they are omitted.
There’s a disconnect, belying WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE “to summarize . . . key facts that appear in the article.” It’s like an infobox summarizing some other article, or restricted to only selected parts of this one. —MichaelZ.13:38, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
That depends on how we define the article's topic, and by whom these Ukrainians were killed. I assume the article tells about the massacre of Poles by UPA. If those Ukrainians were killed by UPA, then these figures definitely should be included. If those Ukrainians were killed by Poles, then we need to carefully think how to represent these facts.
We mush avoid a broadly discredited concept of "Second Polish-Ukrainian war", which is being actively pushed by some Ukrainian sources, and which is totally rejected by the international scholarly community. Paul Siebert (talk) 16:44, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
This is about the infobox reflecting the article’s current content, not re-determining and changing the topic. —MichaelZ.13:07, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
Well, the article’s coverage of the topic explicitly includes subsections on “Polish casualties” and “Ukrainian casualties,” with detailed surveys of both of their numbers in sources. The infobox lists “Deaths” of Poles and Czechs. So the summarizing of “key facts that appear in the article” has a very different emphasis by omitting part of that, without any rationale. Clear?
You seemed to be implying that “by whom” someone was killed makes their deaths not key facts. Does the article or sources support such an assessment? —MichaelZ.16:12, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
I think the key logic is that retribution killings are a part of this subject, and not divorced from it. Even if there were a complete article on them, it would remain part of this broader subject in summary style. There is no reason to omit them. —MichaelZ.16:17, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
The question is simple: the infobox provides a list of perpetrators, and it is exhaustive. Therefore, if those 10,000-30,000 Ukrainians were murdered by someone from this list, these deaths should be included. However, if they were killed by somebody else, we cannot add them without expanding the list of perpetrators.
However, if the we adjust the perpetrator list, the article's scope (and probably a title) should be probably modified too. However, before discussing that, please, answer who murdered those Ukrainians. Paul Siebert (talk) 16:41, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
I find this your response aggressive and unfriendly.
In addition, you are missing the point: as I explained, the lists of the victims and perpetrators must be consistent: we must include all victims (irrespective to their ethnicity) provided that they were murdered by the perpetrators listed in the infobox. However, if we include some category of the victims that were killed by someone else (except by Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, Ukrainian Insurgent Army, Mykola Lebed, Roman Shukhevych), then the perpetrator list should be updated accordingly.
If several thousands of Ukrainians were murdered by the same perpetrators that were killing the Poles (again, their list is: "Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, Ukrainian Insurgent Army, Mykola Lebed, Roman Shukhevych"), then I agree that these Ukrainian victims should be included. However, if they were killed by somebody else (e.g. by Polish self-defence), then the latter must be added to the list of the perpetrators.
In the latter case, I anticipate a huge problem: if we list both UPA and Polish self-defence in the perpetrators list, and we list both Ukrainians and Poles in the list of victims, then a reader may be completely confused: who was being murdered and by whom? Instead of providing a clear and brief summary, such an infobox would just confuse a reader. Paul Siebert (talk) 21:06, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
The title is not the article, and it is clear what the article’s content includes. and WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE is also clear: “to identify key facts at a glance.” It is non-NPOV to selectively omit facts you don’t approve of. —MichaelZ.17:11, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
You seem something too, but I think we should stick to the subject and not indulge in innuendo about other editors. —MichaelZ.13:38, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
In addition, the estimates vary from 2 to 30 thousands, not 10-30, as you say. And many sources say that some of them were killed in 1946-47, whereas the infobox define the time of the event as 1943-45. All of that should be specified too, but, again, that may require an adjustment of the article's scope. Paul Siebert (talk) 17:51, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
2 thousand is an estimate for Volyn only. But I suppose if you want the infobox to offer the full range of estimates then you’d want to amend the “c. 100,000” in the infobox as well, right? —MichaelZ.21:34, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
Totally rejected? Timothy Snyder and many other regarded western historians refer to it as a Polish-Ukrainian civil war. It's actually wacky revisionism to suggest otherwise at this point. LeVivsky (ಠ_ಠ) 04:19, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
@Lvivske why did you change the death toll from c. 100k to 50-100k? It goes against the cited source. Also 40-60k is a deathtoll of Volhynia massacres only. Marcelus (talk) 08:06, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
When has Snyder ever said that? You're lying. Timothy Snyder has condemned Bandera as a genocidal war criminal outright. Find better heroes, high time Galehautt (talk) 00:27, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
Is Misplaced Pages slowly becoming the source of polish propaganda?
This article is literally appalling and misses out on every point literally. There are so much of disinformation here whitening out polish occupation of western Ukraine and hundreds of years of enslavement of Ukrainians by Polish invadors, no mentioning of the crimes and cleansing of Ukrainian people on Ukrainian lands occupied by Poland in 1918 by AK starting from 1941. Poland was nothing more than an invador who deprived Ukraine a chance to get independence in 1918. Polish people were not just a minority enhabiting our land but the occupants who exploited Ukraine. It doesn't mentionthe confirmed facts of Russians pretending to be Ukrainians conducting the acts of violence neither mentions the influence of nazi on this tragedy. it is a fully bias polish propaganda not worthy even one minute of attention. Let's start from the point 1 polish people were occupants on the territory of Ukraine same as Russians in Crimea now. You raising up this tragic history in a distorted way will bounce back on you, many countries have historical questions to Poland indeed. i request the authority of Wiki to investigate and protect the global intellectual community from the influx of polish propaganda on your website.
Yes. Yes it has become that. This article is really bad. I remember when editors specifically censored some of the stuff you said, saying "if you dont like it make a new article". It got out of hand enough that I think a lot of people stopped trying to fix it. LeVivsky (ಠ_ಠ) 04:17, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
You guys needs to be more specific, I'm currently rewiriting the article and updating it to the current knowledge Marcelus (talk) 08:05, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 July 2023
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I have found two spelling errors in the section about the Ukrainian view surrounding the classification as a genocide.
1. Change: "Ukrainian historians called for assessing the massacres in the historical context, pointing out historical repressions against Ukrainian population and forced polonizatioin in pre-war Poland."
To: "Ukrainian historians called for assessing the massacres in the historical context, pointing out historical repressions against Ukrainian population and forced polonization in pre-war Poland."
2. Change: "Ukrainian historian Yuri Shapoval openly speaks about "Volhynia Slaugher" and calls for increased recognition of the massacre inside Ukraine, pointing out very complex ethnic composition of these territories, mutual historical resentments and incitement by external parties, Soviets, Germans and Polish government on exile."
To: "Ukrainian historian Yuri Shapoval openly speaks about "Volhynia Slaughter" and calls for increased recognition of the massacre inside Ukraine, pointing out very complex ethnic composition of these territories, mutual historical resentments and incitement by external parties, Soviets, Germans and Polish government on exile."
@Reaper1945: Please provide a substantive reason for your reversion. There's a range with a citation. It's not in the spirit of collaborative editing to just change a number without any reason, without a source, and without a discussion.
|I’m not sure why that request is addressed to me Daniel Quinlan. Also Reaper1945’s edit seems to me correct as it gives the number range in the fully referenced body, which the info box should summarise, rather than arbitrarily picking one source. BobFromBrockley (talk) 04:17, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
I pinged you because of your edit here. I don't have access to that source, but that's the one you left next to the estimate you used. And if there are other sources being used for the Infobox fatality numbers then they should also be cited there. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 04:27, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
@Bobfrombrockley, @Daniel Quinlan; please don't confuse genocide in Volhynia, which indeed consumed c. 50-60k people, with the entire OUN-UPA "anti-Polish action" which resulted in the death of c. 100k people. It's well explained in the lead and the body Marcelus (talk) 05:13, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
I don't have access to that source, which relates solely to Czech deaths and was already there when I edited. My edit was to remove Motyka and his 100,000 in favour of the range of numbers which are given, with sources, in our relevant section, as there is no reason to pick Motyka over the other sources and the infobox should reflect the body.
Motyka, unlike most other historians mentioned on that page, focused his academic work on the Polish-Lithuanian conflict and UPA massacres, reaserching this subject for decades. His calculations are based on extensive read of sources and are by far the most recent ones. Marcelus (talk) 12:25, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
So you're saying we should use Motyka in the infobox but not Grzegorz Rossoliński-Liebe and Per Anders Rudling, for example, who have also been researching this subject for decades? And also Motyka gives slightly different figures in different publications - which source do you want to be the single one cited by the infobox? BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:13, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
Neither Rossoliński nor Rudling were researching the "anti-Polish" action of UPA or making any kind of their own calculations. Motyka's 2011 Od rzezi wołyńskiej do akcji Wisła is the most recent of Motyka's calculations. Marcelus (talk) 14:57, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
Is there any way you could give a more detailed summary of what he actually said, perhaps a translation of a direct quotation that we could include in a footnote? I believe it was published in English last year. It would be verify that scholars agree it is definitive compared to other texts. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:30, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
Sure; in my translation:
It is not easy to give the number of people who were victims of all these events. This is not the place to discuss the rich literature on the subject and the interesting discussion accompanying the disputes on the subject. Let us point out that the largest number of Poles suffered death in Volhynia. According to the findings of Władysław and Ewa Siemaszko, in 1943 at least at least 33,000 Poles, of whom about 19,000 are known by name. The total number of those killed at the hands of Ukrainian nationalists there may be in the range of 40 to as many as 60 thousand people. In Eastern Galicia, estimates of of 30-40 thousand Polish victims, while in the lands of present-day Poland 6-8 thousand Poles perished.
In light of the numbers cited, it seems that Polish losses as a result of the UPA's actions probably amounted to about 100 thousand dead (with which is more likely to be slightly less, rather than more than 100 thousand). Any higher numbers quoted - 150 or even 200 thousand victims - are not are confirmed by any serious scientific studies, and their frequent appearance in the media can probably only be explained by a the desire to create a sensation.
Let us note that the vast majority of Polish victims fell before the conclusion of the AK-WiN and UPA agreements in the spring of 1945 (from the meeting in the vicinity of Ruda Różaniecka until the end of 1947 died at the hands of the Ukrainian underground in Poland about 3,000 people, in large part soldiers of the Polish Army, WOP and KBW). This shows how important for the Polish historical memory is the first stage of the conflict.
Much controversy surrounds the assessment of Ukrainian losses. Ten years ago, probably as the first Polish historian, I tried to estimate them. To the best of my knowledge at the time, I concluded that 15,000-20,000 Ukrainians were killed as a result of Polish actions. Today, in light of the latest data, I would be inclined to lower the number of Ukrainian victims somewhat. Probably 2,000 to 3,000 Ukrainians were killed at the Polish hand in Volhynia (not counting those killed by auxiliary police). In Eastern Galicia, 1-2 thousand Ukrainians were killed. The situation was completely different in the lands of present-day Poland. More Ukrainians than Poles were killed there in 1943-1947, probably 8-10 thousand (3-4 thousand by the summer of 1944 and 5-6 thousand in the period 1944-1947). The total would give a figure of 10-11 thousand to 15 thousand killed. Again, giving higher numbers is not supported by any scientific research. Let's emphasize it clearly - the numbers of 30, 50 or even 70 thousand killed Ukrainians found in Ukrainian textbooks are simply taken "from the ceiling."Marcelus (talk) 16:29, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
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,_Emblem_of_Russia_(1991%E2%80%931992).svg)
Referencing and citation: criterion met
Done Xan747 (talk) 17:50, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
The redirect Volyn Crime has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 July 27 § Volyn Crime until a consensus is reached. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 01:33, 27 July 2023 (UTC)