Misplaced Pages

:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 21: Difference between revisions - Misplaced Pages

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
< Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion | Log Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 18:49, 23 August 2023 edit+JMJ+ (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users20,658 editsm →Category:18th-century people from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth by occupation← Previous edit Revision as of 21:27, 23 August 2023 edit undoMarcelus (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users9,608 edits →Category:18th-century people from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth by occupation: ReplyTag: ReplyNext edit →
Line 80: Line 80:
*] is fine, the PLC one is a bit iffy but I guess both trees can exist as an overcat. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]&#124;]</sub> 00:13, 23 August 2023 (UTC) *] is fine, the PLC one is a bit iffy but I guess both trees can exist as an overcat. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]&#124;]</sub> 00:13, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
*'''Oppose renaming''', but agree with the '''procedural solution.''' Perhaps it would be wise to have overcats for states - ], ] and ], while there would be separate category trees for nationalities/ethnicities like ], ], and probably ] and others if there are enough people. After all, many ethnicities lived in that state. I am hesitant about the creation of categories for Belarusians and Ukrainians considering that they were both just Ruthenian in the past and drawing a line when one becomes another before the 20th century is rather complicated. Perhaps a ] would be a solution? Just throwing out ideas, perhaps they will give rise to something better later.--] (]) 18:48, 23 August 2023 (UTC) *'''Oppose renaming''', but agree with the '''procedural solution.''' Perhaps it would be wise to have overcats for states - ], ] and ], while there would be separate category trees for nationalities/ethnicities like ], ], and probably ] and others if there are enough people. After all, many ethnicities lived in that state. I am hesitant about the creation of categories for Belarusians and Ukrainians considering that they were both just Ruthenian in the past and drawing a line when one becomes another before the 20th century is rather complicated. Perhaps a ] would be a solution? Just throwing out ideas, perhaps they will give rise to something better later.--] (]) 18:48, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
*:Please reread my propostion; I don't propose renaming anything, but just to restore the previous state of affairs, which was wrongfuly changed. If we do that we can start talking about new category trees for countries, which I think is in general good idea. ] (]) 21:27, 23 August 2023 (UTC)


==== Fooian culture to Culture of Fooland part 2 ==== ==== Fooian culture to Culture of Fooland part 2 ====

Revision as of 21:27, 23 August 2023

< August 20 August 22 >

August 21

Category:Eskimo Joe members

Nominator's rationale: As per WP:SMALLCAT. There are 3 core notable members of this band in its 26 year history, this is unlikely to change. The first line of Eskimo Joe outlines these band members. LibStar (talk) 23:34, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Category:Religion in the Arab world

Nominator's rationale: WP:OVERLAPCAT WP:REDUNDANTFORK WP:ARBITRARYCAT. Follow-up to Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 20#Category:Irreligion in the Arab world. @Marcocapelle and Fayenatic london: pinging previous participants who requested this new fresh nomination. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:44, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
PS: See also Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 17#Greek Orthodoxy. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:30, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Category:18th-century people from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth by occupation

Nominator's rationale: The category and all subcategories name was changed on Feb 19, 2022 based on two erroneous premises:

1. "the Polish state did not exist," which is untrue because the Polish state did not collapse until 1795; it existed in the form of the Kingdom of Poland since the early Middle Ages, in union/federation with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania since 1569.

2. "nationality is the same as being subject to a single state", this is untrue as this concept has a much broader meaning: nationality is the status of belonging to a particular nation, defined as a group of people organized in one country, under one legal jurisdiction, or as a group of people who are united by a common culture, history, traditions, and awareness of a common origin. Polish nationality existed in both the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries, the existence of a sovereign Polish state is irrelevant.

Besides:

3. we base Misplaced Pages on reliable secondary sources, if they describe, for example, Hugo Kołłątaj as a Polish reformer, etc. then that is how Misplaced Pages should describe him, and he should be able to be included in his defining category.

4. the author of the original proposal was banned permanently for sockpuppetry. There is a risk of manipulation of the original vote.

5. category names are inconsistent ("people from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth" vs. "Polish-Lithuanian actors"); Polish-Lithuanian identity is something much different, referring to people with dual Polish and Lithuanian identities.

6. the previous move was done messily and created a hole in the tree ordering Poles according to centuries, and leaving dozens of other nations and ethnicities (Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Germans, Latvians, Karaites, Roma, Jews, Hungarians, Vlachs, Armenians, Greeks, Russians and others) out of the PLC people categories

Previous discussions on this topic: 2023 March 22, Misplaced Pages:Move_review/Log/2022_March#2022_March - previous move review, 2022 June 28 - previous nominator request to move back. Related current discussion about 18th century Lithuanian categories.

Proposed solution: create a separate category tree for Category:People from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, leaving Polish people category tree untouched. Marcelus (talk) 22:22, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Fooian culture to Culture of Fooland part 2

Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C (all are in Category:European culture by country) & WP:C2D (all main articles are called Culture of Fooland). Follow-up to consensus established at Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 9#Fooian culture to Culture of Fooland. I recommend leaving a redirect (already exists in 3 cases). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:38, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:51, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
Speedy rename per WP:C2C and predecent consensus was opposed by @Marcelus: Oppose, foonian culture and culture of foo isn't the same. Further talks resulted in the decision to move to full.
Pinging participants from previous discussion for this follow-up: @Marcocapelle, Laurel Lodged, and Fayenatic london: for your consideration. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:05, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
@Nederlandse Leeuw please inform all potentially inerested Wikiprojects Marcelus (talk) 22:07, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
Culture of foo is much better category name, as it is much broader. For example, Hungarian culture includes the culture of Hungary, but also, for example, the culture of Hungarians in Romania or in the USA. Besides, the borders are changing. Franz Liszt was born outside modern Hungary. Marcelus (talk) 22:45, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
  • I am no longer opposing this. A while back I read it as "Culture in Fooland" and therefore opposed it because I thought it would exclude expatriates. But in hindsight "Culture of Fooland" still covers that too. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:36, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
    Fooian culture also covers expatriates, and is much broader in general, because not linked to a particular country, but to a culture as a whole; care to elaborate why you are advocating narrower scope? Logically culture of Foo should be a subcategory of Fooian culture, not replacing it. Marcelus (talk) 06:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
  • Support, following renaming of "society" categories likewise, here and here. I think I opposed these in the past, on the basis that culture also applies in the diasporas, but as Marcocapelle says, this is not a conclusive objection. – Fayenatic London 06:37, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
  • Rationale expanded: WP:C2C (all are in Category:European culture by country) & WP:C2D (all main articles are called Culture of Fooland). This helps new participants understand the nomination. The main article names are the more important argument than consistency in category tree naming. WP:C2D can take precedence over WP:C2C. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
  • Comment I might add the observation that since the early days of English Misplaced Pages, roughly c. 2001-2006, all articles in this category were created under the title of Culture of Fooland, while in the c. 2003-2008, all the redirects called Fooian culture were created to redirect readers to Culture of Fooland. The move logs don't always accurately preserve the early history of renaming or deleting pages, but it may be that in the early days some articles were originally named Fooian culture (which is why the first sentence of these articles may still feature the boldened phrase Fooian culture today), but they were moved to avoid confusion with the language of the same name. In other cases, Culture of Fooland already existed, and Fooian culture was created as a redirect to it (far more common). Around the same time, subcategories of countries were created about that country's culture. E.g. Category:Barland would have a subcategory named Barian culture. From June 2004 onwards, these subcategories were all grouped into Category:Culture by country.
Some examples
And this pattern holds true for almost all these articles and their redirects in the 2000s. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
  • Comment The following main articles were moved from Fooian culture to Culture of Fooland:
Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:18, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
But we are debating the scope of categories, not articles, aren't we? Marcelus (talk) 15:24, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
They are the same. They have always been the same. Both the main articles and the connected categories have always included expatriates, and the spreading or influence of the culture of Fooland abroad.
E.g. from the day that Culture of Greece was created on 23 February 2003, it included a reference to (Ancient) Greek philosophy, which originated in Ancient Greece, but spread around Asia, Africa and Europe later. At the time, the article (Ancient) Greek philosophy indicated: There are clear unbroken lines of influence from early Greek philosophers, through early Muslim philosophy especially the Mutazilite school, to the Renaissance and hence the secular sciences of the modern day. There has never been the suggestion that just because the article is named Culture of Greece, we can't talk about how that culture spread abroad outside Greece. Today, Culture of Greece#Philosophy, science and mathematics states: The tradition of philosophy in ancient Greece accompanied its literary development. Greek learning had a profound influence on Western and Middle Eastern civilizations. The works of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and other Greek philosophers profoundly influenced Classical thought, the Islamic Golden Age, and the Renaissance.
Similarly, there is no need to be worried that whatever Culture of Belarus is spread abroad can't be mentioned. E.g. Culture of Belarus#Literature tells a little story: By the 16th century, Polotsk resident Francysk Skaryna translated the Bible into Belarusian. It was published in Prague and Vilnius between 1517 and 1525, making it the first book printed in Belarus or anywhere in Eastern Europe. Nobody is saying we can't mention that just because Prague is not located inside Belarus. This is a nice example of the culture of Belarus being spread abroad, and that's okay. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:33, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
I really think that we should dicuss it case by case, possibly with involvement of Wikiprojects, unlike you I don't consider myself expert on every culture on earth. Category:Azerbaijani culture is the best example of that, afaik state of Azerbaijan isn't the main center of Azerbaijani culture. Azerbaijani culture shows it quite well. Marcelus (talk) 16:43, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
I've posted invitations to participate in this CfR to WikiProject Countries and WikiProject Culture. I don't think it will be necessary to request permission from everyone at, say, WP:WikiProject Andorra to rename Category:Andorran culture to Category:Culture of Andorra if the main article has been called Culture of Andorra since 2004 and the scope of the main article and adjoining category have remained unchanged for the past 19 years. But if you think so, go ahead. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Category:Viziers of the medieval Islamic world

Nominator's rationale: Follow-up to several recent precedents:
As the precedents have established, "the medieval Islamic world" was not a "country", so this is an WP:ARBITRARYCAT that can be upmerged. Unlike the precedents, I think "medieval" is also WP:NONDEFINING in this case and having a "medieval" subcat doesn't improve navigation, so it's better to just upmerge to parent Category:Viziers. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:10, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 20:42, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Category:Greek Orthodoxy by continent

Nominator's rationale: Simply a better way of organising the same information for easier navigation. Right now there is a lot of duplication and sub-sub-categorisation going on:
Current structure
Greek Orthodoxy by continent
  • Greek Orthodoxy in Asia‎ (2 C)
    • Greek Orthodoxy in the Middle East‎ (6 C, 2 P)
      • Greek Orthodoxy in Egypt‎ (2 C, 5 P)
      • Greek Orthodoxy in Israel‎ (1 C, 1 P)
      • Greek Orthodoxy in Lebanon‎ (3 C, 4 P)
      • Greek Orthodoxy in the State of Palestine‎ (1 C, 7 P)
      • Greek Orthodoxy in Syria‎ (2 C, 8 P)
      • Greek Orthodoxy in Turkey‎ (3 C, 8 P)
    • Greek Orthodoxy in the Arab world‎ (4 C)
      • Greek Orthodoxy in Egypt‎ (2 C, 5 P)
      • Greek Orthodoxy in Lebanon‎ (3 C, 4 P)
      • Greek Orthodoxy in the State of Palestine‎ (1 C, 7 P)
      • Greek Orthodoxy in Syria‎ (2 C, 8 P)
  • Greek Orthodoxy in Europe‎ (4 C, 4 P)
    • Greek Orthodoxy in Greece‎ (2 C, 7 P)
    • Croatian Orthodox Church‎ (3 P)
    • Greek Orthodoxy in Turkey‎ (3 C, 8 P)
    • Greek Orthodoxy in the United Kingdom‎ (1 C, 3 P, 1 F)
  • Greek Orthodoxy in North America‎ (1 C, 3 P)
    • Greek Orthodoxy in the United States‎ (3 C, 1 P)
As you can see, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine and Turkey are all mentioned twice. But at the core, these are country-based categories and there is no need for continental or regional layers in between. Those are redundant. Instead, I propose:
Proposed new structure
Greek Orthodoxy by country
  • Croatian Orthodox Church‎ (3 P)
  • Greek Orthodoxy in Egypt‎ (2 C, 5 P)
  • Greek Orthodoxy in Greece‎ (2 C, 7 P)
  • Greek Orthodoxy in Israel‎ (1 C, 1 P)
  • Greek Orthodoxy in Lebanon‎ (3 C, 4 P)
  • Greek Orthodoxy in the State of Palestine‎ (1 C, 7 P)
  • Greek Orthodoxy in Syria‎ (2 C, 8 P)
  • Greek Orthodoxy in Turkey‎ (3 C, 8 P)
  • Greek Orthodoxy in the United Kingdom‎ (1 C, 3 P, 1 F)
  • Greek Orthodoxy in the United States‎ (3 C, 1 P)
I'd like to establish consensus on this first before going on a tagfest throughout all the subcategories and sub-sub-categories. That's only gonna make people confused. We can do that once we agree that we should simplify this tree by making it country-based. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:58, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 20:15, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedians who believe that a hot dog is (not) a sandwich

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: speedy delete per author request. ✗plicit 13:24, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Nominator's rationale: Fails WP:USERCAT for lacking any discernible collaborative function. * Pppery * it has begun... 13:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Recipients of the Ulloor Award

Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SHAREDNAME, WP:OCAWARD, and WP:NONDEFINING
There are 3 different "Ulloor Awards" issued by 2 different organisations that are all named after renowned Malayalam poet Ulloor S. Parameswara Iyer. In practice the 2 articles in this category don't treat the award as defining, (1) mentioning it in passing with other honours or (2) not mentioning it at all. The recipients are already listified here, here and here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Category:Prix Emmanuel Roblès recipients

Nominator's rationale: Per WP:OCAWARD and WP:NONDEFINING
The Emmanuel Roblès Prize is a French literary award for an author's first novel. The award might be initially defining for these young authors but, by the time they are notable enough for a Misplaced Pages article, this award is usually mentioned in passing with other honours. This is one of many French literary award categories created in late 2016/early 2017 by a banned editor. The contents are already listified here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Category:Military personnel of the medieval Islamic world

Nominator's rationale: As the precedents have established, "the medieval Islamic world" was not a "country", so these are WP:ARBITRARYCATs that can be upmerged. Follow-up to Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 27#Category:Treaties of the medieval Islamic world, Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 29#Foreign relations of the medieval Islamic world, Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 29#Category:Governors of the medieval Islamic world. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:19, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:37, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Category:People associated with the University of Auckland

Nominator's rationale: "People associated with" is a vague category. We already have as better categories: Category:Academic staff of the University of Auckland and Category:University of Auckland alumni. LibStar (talk) 00:22, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
That is just WP:OTHERSTUFF to be nominated too. It is telling that there is no parent category and you can only get there by typing in the search bar. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:41, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
Yes, Whataboutism is a logical fallacy, but logical and syllogistic fallacies can still be true some of the time. The nominator's rationale: '"People associated with" is a vague category' surely applies to all "People associated with..." categories. If "People associated with..." is a vague category, then all "People associated with.." categories are therefore vague, and should accordingly all be nominated for deletion on the identical grounds that they're a "vague category". Why is "People associated with the University of Auckland" vaguer than, say, "People associated with the University of Edinburgh"? Not everyone "associated with" a university is an academic staff member or alumnus. Same goes for other "associated with" categories. Chrisdevelop (talk) 12:14, 22 August 2023 (UTC)