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The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

This article is biased

Including a section at the top saying," Ngo's coverage of antifa and Muslims has been controversial, and the accuracy and credibility of his reporting have been disputed by other journalists. He has been frequently accused of sharing misleading or selective material and described as a provocateur." This is all hearsay. I nominate this for deletion or revision. Persecuting someone for their political beliefs is against Wikipedias rules. Its hate speech and a smear.2600:100F:B136:6A3F:0:2C:1E3D:7B01 (talk) 13:39, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

It's well documented in reliable sources WP:RS. We just document what reliable sources say. O3000, Ret. (talk) 14:33, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

The word "frequently" (a bold substitution for "widely") was contested in 2021 and as far as I can tell it lacked sufficient support. Dunno why it's still there. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:54, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I removed the one word. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:09, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for that removal. Springee (talk) 15:43, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I do feel like this is a problematic sentence given the low quality/bias of the sources making the claims but I also think there has been a consensus to include something to help summarize why a number of sources consider Ngo to be a controversial reporter (for lack of a better term). Removing this sentence leaves us with a stub of an into. It used to be longer but a good bit of content was rightly/wrongly removed from the lead over time. If you can think of a good way to summarize a lot of the article body I think people would at least be open to the suggestion. Springee (talk) 15:48, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Simply read any of Ngo's 'reporting' and you'll understand why his reporting is inaccurate. Any impartial person would see that at best he's a far-right activist. Idk go to journalism dude Teenyplayspop (talk) 03:49, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

The guy literally calls anyone with dyed hair and a mugshot "antifa" for simply being at a protest. If we are being fair hes a lazy journalist that is always a grifter Teenyplayspop (talk) 03:53, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Ngo is a journalist? I thought he was known only for his role in misinformation campaigns. Dimadick (talk) 09:29, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree, I was just being generous. Teenyplayspop (talk) 19:33, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the description is accurate and reliably sourced. TFD (talk) 04:52, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

We go with what reliable sources say around here. AlanS 10:54, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Right-wing journalist or conservative journalist?

@Springee you reverted my edit to refer to the subject as an American right-wing journalist and in your edit summary you claimed that previous talk page discussion had arrived at the subject being conservative. I've just had a search through the archives and I found two discussions titled Right-wing conservative journalist and Conservative or right-wing? with the latter having almost non-existent participation. My review of the former discussion, which was a lengthy one and involved many editors, indicates that no consensus was arrived at. If there are any other discussions which have occurred that I've missed please let me know so I can make myself aware of a bit of talk history. AlanS 12:46, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I definitely don't recall a previous consensus agreeing not to call him right-wing; I'd be a bit surprised, since finding sources establishing that he's right-wing is relatively straightforward. My read is that the previous discussion reached no consensus and petered out - but we have better sources now. See eg:

• right-wing provocateur Andy Ngo
• right-wing activist Andy Ngo
• far-right agitator Andy Ngo

I don't think it can be excluded at this point. Note also that most of these sources were published after the one lengthy discussion we had; academic coverage takes time to appear, after all. --Aquillion (talk) 21:34, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Are you sure those are better sources? Are they incidental mentions (ie they mention as an example as opposed to actually try to describe the person and their views). This is also a BLP so we should be more cautions in our choice of words when they are supported by RS. But if the intent is to trot out keyword searches of academic (or academicish) papers, "calling attention to a comment by conservative journalist Andy Ngo", "conservative speakers to campus, such as Ben Shapiro, Andy Ngo", "For example, Andy Ngo, a provocative conservative journalist, hid his identity and press

credentials as a survival measure, reflecting reports of attacks on other journalists." (note that this paper cites the NYPost even though we have decided it's not an acceptable source), "Portland-based conservative journalist Andy Ngo". I am aware that my concern regarding even academic sources throwing out terms like "right wing" without careful consideration would also apply to "conservative". While conservative is often used to suggest a POV, right-wing is sometimes (not always) used as a more pejorative way. It's better to stick with the more impartial term, which is also the long term stable term. Springee (talk) 22:07, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Just because "right-wing" can be used by some in a pejorative way, that does not take away it's actual meaning and make it POV. If WP:RS refer to someone as someone as "right-wing" using it correctly, then we are open to doing the same. You need to bear in mind also that not everyone reading Misplaced Pages is from the USA. The 350 million people in the US is a small fraction of the global population and what people refer to as conservatism in the USA is very much in realms of what is considered to be "right-wing" by a lot of the rest of the world. AlanS 00:14, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

• "Right-wing" is the primary description of the subject in the sources I cited, broadly in contexts where the fact that he's right-wing is central to their point or to what they're saying about him; this supports the idea that it's a central descriptor for him and a major part of his notability. I don't think it's reasonable to presume that academics who make examining American right-left politics a major part of their career would use the term carelessly; and, of course, there is no contradiction between "right-wing" and "conservative" - the latter is, in this context, simply a more precise and specific description of his politics. Also, the first source you cited is an undergraduate journal, while this source you presented actually says Rightwing activists like Portland-based conservative journalist Andy Ngo... - I assume you missed the first three words by accident because you grabbed the description from a search result without checking, but still. And one of the remaining ones is in the context of discussing popular right-wing speakers. If your argument based on that is that we should describe him as both conservative and right-wing, or as a right-wing conservative, I could go with that, but nothing in the sources you've presented contradicts the fact that he's right-wing or that this is a significant part of his notability. --Aquillion (talk) 14:08, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  If you are correct that they aren't using the term loosely then you should be able to find them defining the term. As for the specific quote you highlight, the put Ngo in a group (right wing activist) but specifically described him as a conservative journalist. It seems they feel that conservative journalist is the better term. I see no reason to cram "right wing" into the opening of the lead. It would be better to remove any of these subjective terms and stick with more factual terms. Springee (talk) 14:20, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Conservative and (american)right wing are the same exact thing. Teenyplayspop (talk) 03:31, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Pretty much. What we call conservativism in Australia, and I imagine most the rest of the world where it generally means slow to change, is entirely different to American Conservatism which to me seems to be a lot more reactionary and looking to the past. AlanS 12:04, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

@Aquillion, that was my read, that no concensus was reached and the discussion petered out. Note: while there were claims in the discussion that sources given for the subject being "right-wing" were not reliable, my read was that there were actual WP:RS given and that some were trying to muddy the waters by claiming that sources which stated the subject was "right-wing" were from Rolling Stone or similar. AlanS 00:05, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

This is another recent related discussion. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:18, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish, thank you for that. The link one you posted also looks like it didn't really go anywhere either. I'm thinking this needs more discussion followed by an RfC potentially because it has not been resolved. Particular as I raised above re: USA ideas over what constitutes "right-wing" and "conservative" being drastically different to global ideas, I would like to see a determination one way or the other. I've got a report to work on today. It's 10:30am here in cloudy Australia and I've got to meet family afterwards for the weekend. I'm thinking of pinging everyone who was involved in the three discussion that have been identified so far when I get time. AlanS 00:33, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

The fact that (specifically) people (and "sources") who don't like someone tend to use the term "right wing" says much about which term is negative/POV and which one one is neutral. The context is that we are talking about a US political term and so it's common meaning in that context is relevant. And the common meaning of adding "wing" in that context is to add connotations that it is in the smaller more extreme group within right/conservative. Also, IMO it's a valid editor discussion/decision, as one can find a "source" that says whatever one is hoping to find. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 17:54, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

"Right-wing" is a notable term used by numerous WP:RS in relation to the subject. Just because some may have a perception that it's a pejorative term, does not take away from the fact that it's a descriptive terms which has well defined meaning. In fact the subject has been quoted as referring to himself as "centre-right" which is a subset of "right-wing". AlanS 01:29, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't agree that it is well defined. If it is we should be able to point to a clear, widely accepted definition. Instead there seem to be a range of things that are viewed as right wing. In the case of Ngo (or any BLP/group description) it would be far better if we could point to sources that explain what aspects make Ngo "right wing" and then say those things. Basically these labels are often crude shorthand for actual positions/actions. We should identify the positions/actions rather than the vague short hand. I will note, "right wing" isn't nearly as problematic as "far-right" given the range of things the Misplaced Pages article associates with far right. Still, if the sources use it in a pejorative fashion (as N8000 notes) then we should err on the side of not using it. If a source provides good evidence we can include the evidence directly and bypass the label. Springee (talk) 03:11, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

You can disagree if you like, however the fact is that "right-wing" is a fairly well understood idea and the fact that some hotheads on campuses in the USA throw it around as a pejorative is irrelevant for our purposes. Your country is all of 350 million people on this planet out of 8 billion people who aren't having this issue about whether "right-wing" is a pejorative. My purpose here is to get this discussion going and then move then into an RfC when appropriate. AlanS 13:58, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

right wing is a notable term used by political scientists to describe someone who is pro-capitalist. That's all it is. I consider myself left wing and don't see that as a pejorative. My family considers themselves "the right" and they don't see that as a pejorative. Teenyplayspop (talk) 03:38, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Here is Adolph Reed, a Marxist and a political scientist describing the American left numerous times. Yet it is not a perjorative

https://harpers.org/archive/2014/03/nothing-left-2/ Teenyplayspop (talk) 03:40, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

And here is Thomas Sowell, a conservative political scientist etc (that i deeply disagree with) using "Right" and "The Left" not as pejoratives..

https://www.pressenterprise.com/2016/03/22/thomas-sowell-black-and-white-left-and-right/ Teenyplayspop (talk) 03:42, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

In addition to the existing sources, Aquillion points out three high-quality journals that use "right wing". We can rely on them to use the term appropriately even if they do not specifically define or explain why they use it. There's no reason to shy away from certain words just because they may be viewed as negative, and to do so would in fact be a BLP violation. –dlthewave ☎ 03:30, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

It is in no way shape or form a BLP violation to not use a subjective label in the opening sentence of a biography. Additionally, since we have RSs that have used conservative this shouldn't be an issue. Springee (talk) 04:12, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I should point out that "conservative" can be as much as a pejorative as "right-wing". Should we cease using the term "conservative" from here on out? AlanS 14:01, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Ding ding ding Teenyplayspop (talk) 14:28, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm glad you see my point. AlanS 14:34, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm seeing a lot of twisting and turning to try and keep out how reliable sources describe Ngo. Editors personal opinion about the subjectiveness of "right-wing" and how reliable sources are using the word is just that: their opinion. No policy or guideline supports (in this instance) ignoring a common description used among multiple reliable sources. When it comes down to it, this seems like WP:IDONTLIKEIT. ––FormalDude (talk) 03:34, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Agreed Teenyplayspop (talk) 03:43, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Why wouldn't IDONTLIKEIT apply to those who want to put it in when we already have a RSed "conservative" description? Again, if we want to step up the quality of the writing perhaps we shouldn't use these labels at all or we should use them later in the intro. Springee (talk) 04:14, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Because for some reason you like the "conservative" description but don't like "right-wing" despite both being equally supported by RS. ––FormalDude (talk) 04:21, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Why do you think we need both if they are synonymous? If they are equally supported wouldn't having both be redundant? Springee (talk) 04:23, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I never said they're synonymous. You're bludgeoning this discussion, and I'm gonna stop indulging you. ––FormalDude (talk) 04:27, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Let's be clear, you replied to me then got upset that I responded. OK. Springee (talk) 04:29, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

If it's not a negative / pejorative, then why do people who don't like Ngo strive so hard to hard to use/select that term? North8000 (talk) 14:04, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I assume for the reasons they have stated. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:44, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Pinging @BeŻet. @Jweiss11, @Shinealittlelight, @TFD, @Vexations, @Simonm223, @Paul McDonald, @Binksternet, @Calton, @Bacondrum, @Lovemankind83, @Jlevi, @SPECIFICO as far as I can tell from links I've found to previous discussions you are editors that have been involved in prior discussions on this topic and may be interested. My read is that pervious discussion have gone nowhere. Lets have a bit of discussion and then lets make this one go somewhere with an RfC perhaps when appropriate? AlanS 14:29, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

My stance hasn't changed. There are enough sources describing Ngo as "right-wing", and since conservatism is a right wing stance, it makes more sense to use that descriptor, especially given Ngo's associations and activities. BeŻet (talk) 14:42, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, might be the time of night here in Australia but I found what you said a bit confusing. Can you clarify your position? AlanS 14:46, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Right-wing is honestly somewhat inexact but it's probably the best we can do within the bounds of WP:RS and WP:BLP - calling him conservative rather than right-wing would be more exact but less correct and less well supported by reliable sources. Simonm223 (talk) 15:31, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

There are various ways Ngo's politics could be described. OTOH, each of these terms could have different meanings depending on context. Our concern is choosing the term that is most likely to convey to readers his politics. Conservative unfortunately could mean moderate Republican. Far right could mean neo-Nazi. Right-wing best conveys his actual position: to the right of the mainstream Republican Party. TFD (talk) 16:52, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

@The Four Deuces notably he's described himself as centre-right, which is a subset of right-wing so I don't see what others have an issue with?AlanS 17:35, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

If he describes himself as center right and that is a subset of right-wing perhaps that is the best description to use. It doesn't conflict with right-wing and it reflects both his own views and views of others. Springee (talk) 17:41, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

That would potentially be one way to deal with things if it was backed up by a sufficient amount of WP:RS. However, I'm always sceptical of self-ascription to an extent and I hope that others are also. A good example for maintaining scepticism in regards to self-ascription of political positions is number of people in the United States who call themselves "centrists" because they have a political position between that of The Democrats and The Republicans, when a lot of the rest of world hold both parties to be objectively right-wing, with the Republicans having hard-right elements.

So yes if there were sufficient WP:RS that referred to the subject as centre-right but that was not merely conveying his views then I wouldn't be opposed to that but otherwise I generally don't put much stock in what others think about themselves because I think they often aren't sufficiently qualified to make those assessments. AlanS 04:57, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages should avoid self-id for political leanings of political operatives who have specific political objectives. We should instead use reliable third-party sources. Simonm223 (talk) 13:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

John McCain called himself center-right. The difference is that most people would agree with McCain, while Ngo is more often see as far or extreme right. TFD (talk) 18:41, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I would agree with you, particularly given his associations, however the WP:RS say right-wing, so I believe that is what we ought to go with. AlanS 04:59, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Center-right is generally a moderate position. Reading through his history, there seems nothing moderate about his activities. Neither has he appeared to be far-right. Right-wing seems the clearest term. The fact that an editor doesn't like some RS that use the term doesn't negate its use. O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:30, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Which political stances of his are outside of center-right? Really this gets to one of my big concerns with these labels. We are happy to use the label but we aren't saying why it applies. Springee (talk) 18:46, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

aligning himself with Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer most notably. His Twitter functions as a doxxing list where he calls everyone antifa and a pedophile. He's a grifter more than anything Teenyplayspop (talk) 18:53, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

we know that he was embedded with the proud boys and the video taken then said that he protects the proud boys and the proud boys protect him. I think he has clear far right affiliations. Right wing is tepid. commie (talk) 19:31, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

We don't know that at all. The sources that claimed that are questionable and Reason did a great job showing why the video in question doesn't show what was claimed. Can you point to source for your claim that he protects the PBs and they protect him? Springee (talk) 20:02, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Springee, please stop demanding that other editors explain why or provide evidence that Ngo is far-right (or any other alignment). It's supported by reliable sources, and that's our standard. It's not incumbent on us to explain further and insisting that we do so is beginning to be disruptive. –dlthewave ☎ 20:18, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Please review the claim in question. Ngo is being accused of being embedded with the PBs and having a mutual protection agreement. What is the evidence for that? Asking for evidence to support a red flag claim about a BLP isn't disruptive. Please AGF. Springee (talk) 20:27, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

It is a common mistake among new editors, or those who are unfamiliar with our policies, to insist that other editors prove that reliable sources are correct. Please review Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, not truth. The claim being made is that Ngo is right-wing. That claim has been verified by reliable sources that use it in their own voice. End of story. –dlthewave ☎ 20:49, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

The specific claim I questioned was embedded with the PB. No doubt that RS source have said he is right wing. Springee (talk) 21:18, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

My mistake. it was Patriot prayer. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=awN9J88j4mA&feature=youtu.be

it does seem like there's little difference. although this might be a stronger claim that he's far right. commie (talk) 22:07, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Funny, I also forgot it was PP, not PB :D. Anyway, as Reason noted, the video doesn't show he was embedded nor that he had a mutual protection agreement. Springee (talk) 22:26, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

We're straying far from the topic at hand: Whether or not "right wing" is a description that's sufficiently supported by reliable sources. This tangent concerning what may or may not have taken place in a video or who Ngo may be associated with are irrelevant to that question. –dlthewave ☎ 22:59, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I have so much of it from Andrew Duncomb and Alan Swinney's personal social media videos when they were doing 'flag waves' in the northwest during 2020/2021. But apparently thats not a real source apparently according to wiki. You can pretend he's not what we say he is and we can just roll our eyes i guess Teenyplayspop (talk) 20:49, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree, the fact that some people think that "right-wing" is a pejorative is not a reason to not use it. That attitude really is extremely US-centric and the US population makes up 350 million out of 8 billion people. "Right-wing" is a well understood term which is used by numerous WP:RS. AlanS 05:03, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

The term right-wing is defined negatively as opposition to the Left, which in turn is defined as socialism, communism and anarchism. The more vehement the opposition, the more right-wing one is. It's also about associations. If your political allies are right-wing, so are you. Ngo of course is known for his opposition to the Left and his alliance with the far right.

The SPLC has an article about Ngo (described as a "right-wing provocateur") saying he gave a speech about the dangers of antifa for the hard right Polish government. Other speakers they have had include Steve Bannon, Milo Yiannopoulos and Dennis Prager.

A lot of right-wing figures concentrate on specific issues, such as abortion or immigration. They don't need to fill in a checklist to be considered right-wing.

People like Ngo often describe themselves in moderate tones. But then they describe moderates in extreme tones. So the Republicans are left-wing, Democrats are far left and anyone to their left is openly trying to destroy Western civilization.

TFD (talk) 20:38, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

What is "people like Ngo?" if you could tell us that, then we will have the answer to the riddle. SPECIFICO talk 22:47, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

People who are considered extreme right in reliable sources. TFD (talk) 02:58, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Pinging @Thenightaway, @Ivar the Boneful, @MJL, @Pudeo, @Gerntrash, @Darryl Kerrigan, @RightCowLeftCoast, @Jack Sebastian, @Blz_2049, @MrClog, I've subsequently picked up that you were also editors involved in previous discussions about whether the subject should be referred to as conservative or right-wing in the lead and therefore may be interested in this discussion. AlanS 12:41, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I was involved in a few discussions more than four years ago. It mostly had to do with whether or not to call Andy Ngo a journalist at all (and whether we should label him politically as well). It doesn't make a difference to me whether he's described as conservative or right-wing on here. I don't see a difference. –MJL ‐Talk‐ 18:50, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

• OK, earlier I ran a google news search for "andy ngo" + 'right wing' vs "andy ngo" + 'conservative' (the name was quoted in the search, the label was not). Initially I thought I found about 2:1 in favor of conservative. However, I must have done the search incorrectly. When I repeated it today I found ~411 hits for right wing but only 350 for conservative. Thus it does appear that right wing is the term more commonly used. With that in mind and with the consensus I've made the change. Springee (talk) 19:51, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I have a lot of respect for the researched opinions by TFD and Springee; they make good points and I'm cool with "right wing" Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:50, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

That went a lot smoother than I imagined. Thankyou everyone involved. TarnishedPath 04:14, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Good, because I'd like to keep both feet firmly planted in "whatever you all decide is fine by me" -- thanks for the callback, but I've been away from this one so long that I'd have to research all over again and I doubt that I'd bring any additional thoughts.--Paul McDonald (talk) 13:46, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

References

1. Copsey, Nigel; Merrill, Samuel (December 2020). "Violence and Restraint within Antifa: A View from the United States". Perspectives on Terrorism. 14 (6): 122–138. ISSN 2334-3745.
2. Fiorella, Giancarlo; Godart, Charlotte; Waters, Nick (March 2021). "Digital Integrity: Exploring Digital Evidence Vulnerabilities and Mitigation Strategies for Open Source Researchers Get access Arrow". Journal of International Criminal Justice. 19 (1): 147–161. Retrieved 2023-08-09.
3. Loadenthal, Michael (19 June 2023). "We Protect Us: Cyber Persistent Digital Antifascism and Dual Use Knowledge". Studies in Conflict & Terrorism: 1–28. doi:10.1080/1057610X.2023.2222903. ISSN 1057-610X.

ngo lost his civil suit

i don't care to write up the update.

i don't even know if these are reliable sources:

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/miacathell/2023/08/09/andy-ngo-antifa-trial-hacker-testimony-n2626762 https://www.dailydot.com/debug/andy-ngo-lawsuit-verdict/ commie (talk) 15:28, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Currently the page reads, "Hacker and Richter were found not liable after their attorney argued they were positively identified as the assailants in videos of the assault." Based on the cited articles, shouldn't it be, "Hacker and Richter were found not liable after their attorney argued they were not positively identified as the assailants in videos of the assault." Or am I misreading? --164.67.18.166 (talk) 15:38, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't see an issue with that change. Here is perhaps a better article from Oregon Live via MSN . It may be worth noting that there were 6 defendents total. One settled out of court and three were found guilty by default for failing to appear. Springee (talk) 22:25, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Default judgement can be overturned by a judge alone without defence intervention and I'm not sure use of the term "guilty" is correct where there has been no criminal conviction. AlanS 00:17, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

@Kire1975: Good attention to detail here, but I think there's a simple solution. The Daily Beast story in this instance appears to be wholly derivative of the Oregonian piece (at the bottom of the DB article it links that article, stating "Read it at The Oregonian.") By contrast, I'm pretty sure the Oregonian and Mercury are both written by reporters who were in the courtroom. The streaming link for this trial was not available outside the courtroom, and transcripts are not available yet even to reporters, so that's significant. Also, it might not be clear because of the way the Oregonian displays their page, but their story is actually pretty detailed; it's just mostly behind a paywall. So, I think the best thing is just to remove the DB as a source here, and leave the Mercury and the Oregonian (which are both well-established sources). -Pete Forsyth (talk) 23:36, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Very reasonable and well thought out. Good collaborative effort. There are others on here who are against taking it to the talk page and taking it directly to the Edit warring noticeboard. That is why I was forced to undo my own edit, even though the WP:DAILYBEAST article is not reliable for "controversial statements of fact related to living persons." Kire1975 (talk) 04:53, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Your statement is not accurate. There is no consensus on reliability. That is not the same as "not reliable" and you would be well not to refer to me in the third person in a negative sense, particularly when you chose not to bring matters to the talk page yourself given that you engaged in confirmed edit warring. AlanS 13:48, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Is reliability a non-binary question? The title of the piece calls him a troll. It's certainly not WP:NEUTRAL. Kire1975 (talk) 23:09, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Asking if reliability is a non-binary question is irrelevant as reliability of the publication has not been determined by consensus. Per your second sentence I refer you to WP:RS where a section reads "Misplaced Pages articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject." AlanS 01:42, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

WP:BLP requires a positive consensus for inclusion, and that covers sources. If something is WP:DUE it will be covered in better sources, which I believe the lawsuit information is. Additionally, if something is found only in biased sources, especially those without consensus for reliability, it's probably not due. There's no reason to use subpar sourcing when better sources exist. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:48, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Notably someone didn't try and obtain consensus, they choose to edit war. I'm not tied to the source and if they'd chosen to come here and discuss it rather than edit war I don't see any reason why it couldn't have been resolved. AlanS 02:21, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps I missed something but I felt that everyone here was operating in good faith. I'm certainly not a fan of the original sources but I felt they were sufficient to say Ngo didn't prove liability. The subsequent article updates looked like improvements and we settled on better sourcing in the end. I think we should include that the absent defendants were found liable by default but otherwise I think things worked out in the end. BTW, yes AlanS, you are correct, I should have said "liable" vs "guilty" above. I don't think I added "guilty" to the article space. Springee (talk) 02:37, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Yeah I didn't see "guilty" in the article space. AlanS 04:39, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

User:AlanS: You're casting aspersions. I didn't edit war. The edit warring noticeboard discussion did not find that I edit warred. Please strike. Kire1975 (talk) 06:10, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

@Kire1975 you self-reverted for no reason? I really see no reason to continue this. AlanS 06:17, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I self reverted after being made aware of the 1RR rule. There was no edit war. Kire1975 (talk) 06:20, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I hope you're not suggesting that edit warring is a criminal offence or that Misplaced Pages operates courts of law. Your analogy doesn't work. You gave me a laugh though. I'll strike the comment to resolve this. AlanS 11:54, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

If my analogy doesn't work, you are accusing me of bad faith. No need to strike it, then. Kire1975 (talk) 06:00, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Um, no I didn't accuse you of bad faith. As far as I'm aware bad faith is not required to violate edit warring restrictions. All that is required is not sufficiently making ones self aware of the conditions of editing. In any case I already striked the comment that got your back up as a show of good faith, please refer to my comment above. As I suggested on WP:AN3 I could very well tag your talk with warnings re: WP:AGF also if I was so inclined. There's really no need for this continue. I suggest you undo your last edit on my talk and we drop this. TarnishedPath 09:05, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

RfC: "journalist" in lede

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Survey (RfC: "journalist" in lede)

Question: Should we describe Andy Ngo as a journalist in the lede?
Note: An RfC in 2021 came to no concensus on whether to call Ngo a journalist in the article lede section and thus WP:QUO was maintained. TarnishedPath 04:16, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

• Nah. Andy Ngo is pretty clearly, per the sources, in the same occupation as James O'Keefe. While O'Keefe claims to be a journalist, we don't describe him as such in the lead of his article. Instead we describe him as a "political activist". That phrase, IMO, fits Ngo much better: the sources we have use "provocateur" quite a bit for him, and unlike an actual conservative journalist (such as Andrew Neil or Brit Hume) he rarely does any sort of basic factual reporting, instead devoting all of his time to conservative activism. Loki (talk) 05:44, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
• No - Sources have, mostly in the past, sporadically called him a journalist, but usually with qualifiers or sometimes even just in scare quotes. My observation is that more recent sources do not use this as a simple description. "Provocateur" seems like a more neutral term for his activities, and confusing the two would be misleading to readers. To put it another way, his form of "journalism" would have to be summarized and contextualized per reliable source, not presented as a basic fact in the lead. The point of the lead is to explain why someone is significant enough to have an article. Per many sources, he is significant in large part due to his self-aggrandizing pseudo-journalism. To call him a journalist would be to misrepresent the reason he even has an article, as well as be an insult to actual journalists. Grayfell (talk) 06:29, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Sporadically called him a journalist is a stretch. Here are the many sources from the last RfC. The Independent, The Times, RealClearPolitics, The Washington Post, Westword, Variety, Sky News, Slate, Vox, The New York Times, the BBC, and The Guardian all describe him as a journalist. This assertion that the sources presented in the last RfC are mostly in the past is bizarre since it provides no reason to disregard them. It is causality violation to cite sources from the future, so we can only use sources from the past. News sources do not provide a continuous drip-feed of articles about Andy Ngo every 24 months (this RfC was opened exactly 2 years to the day after the last one was closed) so I don't get the purpose of only considering sources since the last RfC. According to his Misplaced Pages article, Andy Ngo has not had any substantial events in his career since 2021. So why should we dismiss all these sources published in 2021 that call him a journalist? Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 07:43, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes. Per my comments in the previous discussion, one does not have to be a good journalist to be a journalist. Loki complains that Ngo rarely does any sort of basic factual reporting and Grayfell says that calling him a journalist would be an insult to actual journalists. Even if this is true, this doesn't address the above issue. Claas Relotius and Stephen Glass both fabricated stories, yet are described as "former journalists" because they wrote about the news as a job. This is like saying the Daily Mail isn't a newspaper anymore because we deprecated it as a source for making stuff up.

Trying to establish our own code of ethics for how good a journalist must be before we can call Ngo such is blatant WP:Original research + WP:Synthesis, and we must stick to what reliable sources call Andy Ngo. Not invent strange subjective standards that disqualify people deemed as self-aggrandizing because you don't like that some journalists are lazy. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 07:13, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

• Yes. The lead should summarise the article, and the article is replete with discussion of activities such as being the editor of various newspapers, publishing op-eds in other newspapers, engaging in punditry, "covering" things, "reporting" things... these are acts of journalism, so it seems fair to summarise them as him being a journalist (particularly since numerous sources also describe him this way). Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 08:10, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
• Yes Nothing has changed, he is still a journalist per reliable sources through the years. (2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023)

Journalist/author Andy Ngo, who has reported extensively on Antifa activities, has won $300,000 in damages stemming from a 2019 attack. Three defendants have been ordered to pay conservative journalist Andy Ngo $300,000. Conservative journalist Andy Ngo. Conservative journalist Andy Ngo. Mr. Ngo is an independent journalist in the Portland area. The conservative journalist Andy Ngo. One journalist, Andy Ngo, was attacked so severely. A critical tweet by a center-right journalist Andy Ngo. Right-wing U.S. journalist Andy Ngo. Andy Ngo, a Portland-based journalist. Journalist Andy Ngo. Far-right users like journalist Andy Ngo. On Jun 29, 2019, a journalist named Andy Ngo. Conservative journalist Andy Ngo. Isaidnoway (talk) 11:11, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

• Yes, for exactly the reasons cited by Chess above. Repeatedly bringing this up (this is the third time in three years) is getting tiresome. Dorsetonian (talk) 10:22, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
• Yes based on a sufficient number of reliable sources. Burrobert (talk) 11:21, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
• Yes More than enough recent and older sources use the term and any objective review of his work would support "journalism". As was said above "journalism" doesn't have to mean "good". The objections such as "sporadically" claiming journalist or that he really is an "activist" etc aren't supported by RSs nor an objective view of his work in reporting activities on the ground and being an editor at a news site. Even if we don't like the things he says or where he says them that doesn't mean his isn't engaged in journalism. Springee (talk) 12:04, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

• No Reliable sources do not refer to Ngo as "a journalist," but always qualify it, so he is described as a "right-wing journalist," "far right journalist" or "conservative journalist." They are implying he is not a journalist in the full sense of the term. Compare with terms such as "frontier justice," "barroom philosopher," "revisionist historian." TFD (talk) 12:17, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

  I disagree with the logic of this argument. Consider if we describe someone as a "civil rights lawyer" or a "rocket scientist" or a "nuclear physicist" or a "molecular biologist" or even a "dirt work contractor". In every case we are refining the primary label (lawyer, scientist, physicist, etc). We aren't saying someone who is a "civil rights lawyer" isn't actually a lawyer. They clearly are a lawyer. Instead we are providing more refinement to the description. A patent lawyer might not have as refined a view on a recent civil rights incident. A rocket scientist might not be able to speak as meaningfully on the issues with the newest Intel chip designs. That doesn't mean they aren't lawyers or scientists. Thus even if we think Ngo's work is "right-wing journalism" that still puts him in the larger bucket of "journalism". Also, the lead currently says, "right wing journalist" rather than just journalist. Springee (talk) 12:32, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

  The equivalent would be financial journalist or sports journalist. There are courses in financial and sports journalism just as there are for molecular biology or civil rights law.

  Theoretically, journalists are supposed to be neutral and report the news objectively. They are supposed to report stories, not be part of them.

  Also, this has similarities to the discussion about Julian Assange. While he is at least by some definitions a journalist, his article does not call him one. That's because he doesn't meet the definition of what the average person would consider to be a journalist. TFD (talk) 12:47, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

  I agree. Whatever your position on Julian Assange, calling him a journalist would be a stretch given he just dumps information that he receives. TarnishedPath 13:30, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

• Yes "Journalist" is a factual term, and it is clearly documented he worked as a journalist for a few outlets. Is he anywhere close to the caliber of journalist as NYTimes writers? Of course not, but he's still a journalist. Trying to diminish the term because RSes associate him on the far right is very much non-neutral; journalists exists across the entire range of the political spectrum. He also would be a political activist (as noted above), which doesn't change that he was a journalist too. --Masem (t) 13:05, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
• As Before. My remark on the second RfC, referring to the first RfC, ended Closed by Chetsford on 29 November 2020. If this RfC is not discarded, then I believe the next closer should determine whether this fits WP:CCC "consensus can change" description, or WP:CCC "disruptive" description. Chetsford closed the second RfC and finished by saying Until next year's RfC, I interpret that as pro "consensus can change". Okay but this time I'm hoping closer opinion can change. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:27, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
• No. Many high-quality sources overtly cast doubt on his description as a journalist, which makes it a contested opinion rather than a fact and therefore inappropriate to state in the article voice. See eg. Academics and journalists critical of the far-right have produced a number of books, informed by immersion, including those by . There are also book-length treatments authored by far-right agitator Andy Ngo, and .; the source unambiguously goes out of its way to distinguish Ngo from the list of journalists. Or Andy Ngô, a right-wing provocateur and “media personality,” often portrayed as a journalist.. Or Independent journalist Andy Ngo was described by many news outlets not as a journalist when attacked and beaten on a Portland street by Antifa members in July 2019. The first source notes that he is "often portrayed" as a journalist, but plainly disagrees; the second, as a secondary source, calls him a journalist itself but likewise acknowledges that many mainstream news sources do not. Both of these establish that it's contested opinion, not fact. Other sources, eg. and , use "journalist" with scare quotes, likewise a treatment appropriate for opinion and not for uncontroversial fact. As a note, someone above said that Ngo has not had many events in his career since 2021; I feel compelled to point out that many of these sources are after that date, which implies that academic coverage of him has shifted. It's not uncommon for early coverage to be emotive and driven by rapidly-published repetition of initial reports, while later coverage involves more in-depth analysis and consideration - it's the whole reason WP:RECENTISM exists. The opinion that he is (or was) a journalist can weaken under sustained academic scrutiny even if he does nothing. --Aquillion (talk) 14:30, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

  Can you establish the reliability of those works? You seem to be suggesting that anything with a vail of "scholarship" is automatically unbiased and reliable. How many of the works you list are cited by others? At least one, the one containing "often portrayed as a journalist." is a self published paper that seems to exist to defend Antifa. Are you suggesting that is a good source to establish Ngo's profession? Your first example article is cited by no one. Perhaps that's because it was released in June 2023 but that also means that we can't assume others treat it's claims as reliable. Springee (talk) 15:19, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

No It's important to reflect recent RS for any such label. He is more of a diarist, but journalist would misrepresent his current output to most of our readers. SPECIFICO talk 15:18, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Per Isaidnoway, recent sources refer to him as a journalist. Springee (talk) 15:20, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, of course That's what he does for a living. North8000 (talk) 15:25, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes per last time and Springee and Isawnoway. Nothing significant has changed compared to the last time this was brought up.  Spy-cicle💥  15:29, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Discussion (RfC: "journalist" in lede)

Pinging Coffeeandcrumbs, Wikieditor19920, Cedar777, Dorsetonian, Shinealittlelight, NorthBySouthBaranof, Snooganssnoogans, Masem, Springee, Some of everything, Blueboar, O3000, Morbidthoughts, Chess, TFD, Rhododendrites, Aquillion, Idealigic, Binksternet, PackMecEng, Davide King, RandomGnome, Guy, Anne Drew, Spy-cicle and Chetsford as you have been previously involved in a similar RfC. TarnishedPath 04:25, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Pinging 力, IvoryTower123, Volunteer Marek, HAL333, Thenightaway, Isaidnoway, PraiseVivec, BristolTreeHouse, Pincrete, Sea Ane, Korny O'Near, SPECIFICO, Korny O'Near, -sche, Czello, ScottishFinnishRadish, PackMecEng, LokiTheLiar, FormalDude, Hipocrite, North8000, Stuartyeates, ValarianB, Crossroads, Binksternet, Peter Gulutzan and K.e.coffman as you have been previously involved in a similar RfC. TarnishedPath 04:50, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Oh look, the same argument coming up every year, going on three years now, with the predictability of a national holiday. By the same group of familiar faces. I have no comment on this, I just would like to encourage those of you still obsessively rage-editing Andy Ngo's for hours on end page to step outside, spend some time with your family, get some sun, plan a vacation, take up a ceramics hobby, learn to play tennis... there are many other things you can do in life! :) ~~~~ Wikieditor19920 (talk) 15:37, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

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