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Did you know

• 13 Dec 2024 – Frankfurt silver inscription (talk · edit · hist) was nominated for DYK by Renerpho (t · c); see discussion

Good article nominees

• 23 Dec 2024 – Transgender health care misinformation (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist (t · c); start discussion
• 15 Dec 2024 – Conspiracy theories about the 2024 Atlantic hurricane season (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by Dan Leonard (t · c); see discussion
• 14 Dec 2024 – Flying saucer (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by Rjjiii (t · c); start discussion
• 23 Aug 2024 – Epistemology (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by Phlsph7 (t · c); see discussion

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• 21 Dec 2024 – Avril Lavigne replacement conspiracy theory (talk · edit · hist) is requested to be moved to Avril is dead by Kailash29792 (t · c); see discussion
• 19 Dec 2024 – Sowa Rigpa (Traditional Tibetan medicine) (talk · edit · hist) is requested to be moved to Traditional Tibetan medicine by Seefooddiet (t · c); see discussion
• 19 Dec 2024 – 2024 Northeastern United States drone sightings (talk · edit · hist) is requested to be moved to 2024 United States drone sightings by Very Polite Person (t · c); see ]
• 16 Dec 2024 – 2024 New Jersey drone sightings (talk · edit · hist) move request to 2024 Northeastern United States drone sightings by Very Polite Person (t · c) was closed; see ]
• 11 Dec 2024 – InfoWars (talk · edit · hist) move request to Infowars by ElijahPepe (t · c) was moved to Infowars (talk · edit · hist) by Adumbrativus (t · c) on 18 Dec 2024; see discussion

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• 02 Dec 2024 – Amulet (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for merging to Ta'wiz by Klbrain (t · c); see discussion
• 24 Nov 2024 – Omphalos hypothesis (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for merging to Last Thursdayism by Викидим (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Jul 2024 – Peter A. Levine (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for merging to Somatic experiencing by Klbrain (t · c); see discussion

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• 08 Jul 2024 – List of common misconceptions (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for splitting by WhatamIdoing (t · c); see discussion

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Water ionizer

Over at Talk:Water_ionizer#Water_Ionizers I am being accused of violating NPOV and 'Status Quo Stonewalling on an article that seriously lacks NPOV' on this article, which is about pseudo-scientific devices used to produce 'Alkaline water', which proponents argue has numerous health benefits. More voices at the article talk would be very much appreciated. - MrOllie (talk) 21:13, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

This has now expanded to a thread at Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#New_Zealand_Herald,_Whanganui_Chronicle,_opinion_piece? MrOllie (talk) 18:32, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

I was thinking of asking for help here as well. Thanks. --Hipal (talk) 20:39, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

For clarity on a few points, to make sure I don't get lumped in with the "proponents has numerous health benefits":

1. I'm arguing that water ionizers produce alkaline water. As far as I can find, the only sources that claim that they do not produce alkaline water largely refer to the Misplaced Pages article itself and are thus cyclical citations. Even many sources critical of their health benefits (as they should be) agree that they produce alkaline water. The mechanism behind this is well-understood, and I've provided multiple studies confirming this fact. The main scientific dispute about water ionizers is about the benefits of the water produced.
2. Alkaline water has numerous studies that have come to the conclusion that it is helpful for reflux diseases. Even studies that are critical of alkaline water's claimed health benefits tend to concede that the one area it is helpful for is for reflux diseases.
3. Alkaline water does not change body pH. Alkaline water does not change blood pH. Alkaline water is not some weird kind of "structured water" or "spherical whatever.". Alkaline water is not a magic cure-all. Alkaline water does not help cancer. Alkaline water does not help diabetes. The only solid evidence for alkaline water's medical benefit is in helping treat the symptoms reflux diseases. There are a few more things that there is some extremely limited shaky evidence for, but I wouldn't advocate for the inclusion of any of those in the article, given how shaky the studies are.
4. Water ionizers are sold via scammy MLM's and pyramid schemes that charge way more than the product should cost and engage in predatory tactics.

I am not someone arguing for magic and snake oil. I'm attempting to add nuance to an unuanced article. Ronnocerman (talk) 01:21, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Triggernometry

• Triggernometry (podcast) (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

This came to my attention because an editor keeps adding stuff in about Sam Harris which looks rather COATRACK-y. However, more generally there was an AfD on this article which was closed with a redirect, which has not happened. In my understanding this podcast is pretty much a platform for all things fringe and culture wars, but I don't think it's received much attention from good sources. More eyes welcome. Bon courage (talk) 12:46, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

@Bon courage: There was also a deletion review: Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2023 March 22#Triggernometry (podcast). The outcome was to allow recreation... —Alalch E. 01:47, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Oh yes, "... subject to a possible reexamination at AfD". Did that ever happen? Whatever, we we ended up with was poor with bad sourcing, OR and COATRACKING. As suggested in that review the way to proceed now is to follow WP:SPLIT if there's enough material in the Kisin article to merit that, Bon courage (talk) 01:56, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

If the content beneath the redirect is restored (yet) again we need to allow for another AfD (i.e. start one), unless all of the changes that introduce new sourcing relative to the originally AfDd version are subject to being reverted for some serious reason (then the version of the article would be pared back to something (near-)identical to the version discussed in the AfD, so it would make no sense to AfD the same version of the same article twice). I don't think that anyone ever will propose a split, realistically. —Alalch E. 02:05, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Okay, let's see what happens and if/how the re-merge gets un-merged. Bon courage (talk) 02:18, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oh well, the full puffery/OR version has been restored with an accusation of bad faith (baked into the edit summary no less).. The article is already getting over 300/views/day and promises to be a WP:FRINGE locus. More eyes probably helpful. Bon courage (talk) 11:29, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

I read your most recent comment here and went over to the article. I also noticed the arguing, which I read only enough to realize that it would never resolve. So I tackled the article on my own as a new viewer (not having noticed it had had a prior AfD, LOL) and cut cut cut some junk, until I gave up and wrote instead my evaluation on the talk page (which is when I noticed the prior AfD). So if the editor who un-redirected it doesn't re-redirect it himself, I'm happy enough to submit to AfD myself. I'll give him either a day or two, or until he notices my eval and writes something that tells me he isn't going to re-redirect it.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 06:50, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

• I've just noticed there is an article on the co-host, Francis Foster (comedian), which has similar issues. Bon courage (talk) 16:41, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

  I’ve went ahead and started a deletion discussion. Fermiboson (talk) 11:09, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Galactic Federation (ufology)

Galactic Federation (ufology) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Found this article because I'm working on Scientology topics and the page creator mistakenly tied together Scientology and... what is this stuff. The topic seems to have been discussed back in 2020 at FTN Archive 76, but that was before this article was created. I have no clue about this topic but it sure looks hokum FRINGE to me.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 00:47, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. AfD just filed. Utter nonsense with no place on WP. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 02:28, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

And while we're on the subject, Ground Crew Project needs the attention of someone with a chainsaw. It's a credulous play-by-play summary of a crazy UFO religion that may just satisfy the letter of WP:FRINGE but has massive NPOV issues and is basically a platform for deranged nutbaggery. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 03:11, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Ground Crew Project has excellent WP:FRIND sources, something you don't often see in these kinds of articles. From what I've read, the few instances of credulous prose may have been unintentional. I copyedited the lead accordingly. The body may be a bit bloated and could use some copyediting tweaks, but it is solidly referenced. - LuckyLouie (talk) 13:09, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

The AfD just closed as merge to Ground Crew Project. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 18:38, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

RSN

A discussion is going on at RSN. See Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Books by Anthroposophists are not RS. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:20, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Richard Webster (British author)

• Richard Webster (British author) (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Wrote against Satanic Panic (amongst other things). IPs (probably one person) added lots of stuff in October, most of which seems inappropriate to me, so I blanket-reverted. More eyes may be useful. --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:14, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Effects of pornography on young people#Consumption effects on the brain

IMHO, this whole section is WP:FRINGE. E.g. Gail Dines is not an expert on brains, why should we trust her judgment about human brains? Further, correlation does not prove causation. tgeorgescu (talk) 13:14, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

The sourcing looks questionable for the claims being made, certainly. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:20, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. I removed the bit that was sourced to Dines. The rest could certainly be pared down and copy edited for tone –– or perhaps removed entirely, since it's making general claims based on a single study. Have other studies shown similar results? Generalrelative (talk) 14:05, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Claims about effects on the brain should meet WP:MEDRS, and the cited source clearly does not. 'Removed entirely' is the way to go. MrOllie (talk) 14:19, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Anthroposophy#Religious nature

Anthroposophy could not be a revival of the Gnosis for example, as the Gnosis was strictly guarded in hidden and ancient mysteries. (emphasis mine). There is no evidence that the Gnosis was strictly guarded. There are Gnostic gospels which spell it all out, including passwords for passing by the Archons. The OP conflates Gnosticism with mystery religions. Very much not the same thing. Rudolf Steiner does not pass for a legitimate scholar of Gnosticism. He passes for a neognostic cult leader.

So, even if Steiner claimed that the Gnosis was strictly guarded, he is not a WP:RS for such claim, nor are Anthroposophists who take his claim at face value. Since he did claim that, he was either an ignoramus or a liar.

Version available at . tgeorgescu (talk) 15:42, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes thank you this certainly is an interesting question - has the Gnosis ever truly been published though? For example, would it have ever been published on paper in the Gnostic gospels? As I understand, the Gnosis as it was known was generally only selectively passed on in ancient times in select private in-person ceremonies, with great penalties for transmitting it beyond those closed circles etc hm SamwiseGSix (talk) 15:56, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

White-washing on Richard Hanania

This article has recently been white-washed after Hanania has complained on the talk-page . Richard Hanania is a white nationalist who has written articles for various neo-nazi magazines such as Counter-Currents, Occidental Observer and VDARE. If you check the old lead , many sources have now been removed. The lead now says "Richard Hanania is an American right-wing academic". Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:40, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

New lead, more white-washing - "Richard Hanania is an American academic" Psychologist Guy (talk) 23:02, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

"a white nationalist who has written articles for various neo-nazi magazines" maybe, but he wrote those blog posts in 2008-2012 and has disavowed them as wrong. So the article seems pretty balanced (not "white washed") to clarify that.

The old lead wasn't well written, but I have updated it as of now. Per MOS:LEADELEMENTS, the lead can include "mention of significant criticism or controversies". Many experienced users on the talk page have suggested the significant prominence given to his (since disavowed) opinion pieces from 2008 constitutes NPOV. Putting "right wing" before academic seems strange, hence I put it in the second sentence that He has been described as right wing and libertarian, and a supporter of "enlightened centrism". Zenomonoz (talk) 00:37, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

I am not seeing any good sourcing for the academic claim, he is known as a political commenter. We have sourcing that says he still makes racist comments "Hanania no longer writes for those publications. And though he may claim otherwise, it doesn’t appear that his views have changed much. He still makes explicitly racist statements and arguments, now under his own name" , which is also found in four other sources , , , . Psychologist Guy (talk) 01:18, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

He was a research fellow at Columbia University and a visiting fellow at another uni. Academic is an appropriate title and operating a think tank is his primary job. Meets requirements per WP:NPROF. Zenomonoz (talk) 08:45, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Seems WaPo describes him as a "Political science researcher". Zenomonoz (talk) 10:34, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm happy to describe this person as a "researcher" if that's what the Washington Post says, but he meets none of the criteria of WP:NPROF. He is notable rather for the controversy he's created, so WP:GNG. Generalrelative (talk) 21:24, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

It really looks like reliable sources are still primarily describing this person as a white supremacist/nationalist to this day, so pointing out his far-right activism in the lead is not a violation of WP:RECENTISM or WP:UNDUE. But given his disavowal of those views (which might be or might not be disingenuous), I think describing him as a white supremacist/nationalist in wikivoice also does not look like the right choice here. That being said, I think we should definitely talk about his far-right activism in the first paragraph of the lead. Saying that he is known for being anti-woke and a libertarian before pointing out his far-right activism is probably undue. Also, whoever put "heterodox commentary" in that infobox was almost certainly trying to white-wash the article, that really looks like an WP:EUPHEMISM. SparklyNights 03:12, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

"The Misplaced Pages page on me is still just a summary of hit pieces. No reason a pseudonym that got no attention at the time should be in the introduction, I'd appreciate people deleting it, or putting at the bottom. Worth fighting this or impossible?" , page protection might be a good idea. Psychologist Guy (talk) 14:05, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

If there was significant IP editing, sure. There was one when Hanania tweeted it, but nobody else has done much. Zenomonoz (talk) 19:51, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Dirk Pohlmann

• Dirk Pohlmann (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Dubious conspiracist guy, article looks whitewashed. --Hob Gadling (talk) 10:03, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Talk:Apollo program#Conspiracy theories

See talk page Parham wiki (talk) 11:16, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Watchmaker analogy

• Watchmaker analogy (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Discussion on German Misplaced Pages spilled over here. Is a professor of media studies, writing in a journalistic source, relevant? --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:29, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Seriously WP:UNDUE, especially in the form of a long quote from Schneider's blog. HuffPost explicitly swears off responsibility for Schneider's text, marking it with "This post was published on the now-closed HuffPost Contributor platform. Contributors control their own work and posted freely to our site". It's like quoting a self-published book. Bishonen | tålk 12:00, 30 October 2023 (UTC).

Robert M. Schoch‎

Latest changes need checking. At the very least I think he should be called a geologist in the infobox, not a scientist. The lead seems to maximise his credentials over his notability as promoting pseudo ideas. Doug Weller talk 16:26, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Schoch is arguably more notable for his historical paleontology work than geology. I've cited his work on the obscure mammal group Dinocerata, which is genuinely solid. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:49, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Gurdon light

• Gurdon Light (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Low edit count users adding vague images without discussion. As I mentioned at Talk:Gurdon_Light, there is no way to WP:V verify a blob of light on a dark background is the Gurdon light. Most user-submitted images to Misplaced Pages are fairly conventional and it is reasonable to assume good faith and trust the uploader. However some images, like this one, are connected to topics that are sufficiently unusual that they cannot be taken at face value. Even modifying the image caption with a caveat ("Photo claimed to be of the Gurdon light in 1994") isn't sufficient. Platforming images that make unverifiable claims doesn't improve the article and isn't in the best interests of Misplaced Pages. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:57, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

OMG, it's a blurry blob! So blurry blobs do exist! --Hob Gadling (talk) 13:51, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

I think perhaps the edit warring user doesn't know about their own talkpage. At any rate, I've posted a final warning there, but I won't be blocking anybody for some hours (just soon off to bed). Bishonen | tålk 22:33, 4 November 2023 (UTC).

Update: oh yes, they do know the way to their page; they just reverted my warning. Bishonen | tålk 23:37, 4 November 2023 (UTC).

Shivapuri Baba

New article describing a Hindu mystic who allegedly lived 137 years without any good sourcing. David Wolfe (raw food advocate) was being cited a source, I have just removed that. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:15, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Seemingly reliable Wiley publication promoting archaeological nonsense concerning Gunung Padang

This is what I just posted to RSN:

Gunung Padang is a fairly recent megalithic site. However, geologist Danny Hilman Natawidjaja author of "Plato Never Lied: Atlantis Is In Indonesia" has claimed it to be much older and to be a buried pyramid. This is nonsense but he along with a number of other authors have had recent work published in a Wiley peer reviewed journal an article backing that claim.Geo-archaeological prospecting of Gunung Padang buried prehistoric pyramid in West Java, Indonesia concluding that "The oldest construction, Unit 4, likely originated as a natural lava hill before being sculpted and then architecturally enveloped during the last glacial period between 25 000 and 14 000 BCE" and buried 9,000 years ago. See also which is not an RS itself but has good background material and sources. I expect attempts to add this to the article. We need to look at the author's BLP as well. Doug Weller talk 10:04, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, no, we aren't going to base article content on such wild primary-source claims from someone writing outside their field of specialist knowledge. As for Natawidjaja's biography, it currently says nothing about pyramids or Atlantis etc, and probably shouldn't until such claims are reported on by sources capable of reflecting how off-the-wall they are. Watchlisted. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:12, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

@AndyTheGrumpl We list his "Plato Never Lied: Atlantis Is In Indonesia", perhaps that could be in the body of the article instead of just tucked away. Colavito is considered an RS and mentions him here. Doug Weller talk 12:01, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Archaeologist Víctor Pérez described Natawidjaja's conclusions as pseudoarchaeology.

That's in the main Gunung Padang article. Which also says:

research.

Natawidjaja's analysis was questioned by other scientists. Vulcanologist Sutikno Bronto suggested that the carbon dating result was influenced by weathering and concluded that the elevation is the neck of an ancient volcano and not a man-made pyramid. Thirty-four Indonesian scientists signed a petition questioning the motives and methods of the Hilman-Arif team. Archaeologist Víctor Pérez described Natawidjaja's conclusions as pseudoarchaeology.

Natawidjaja's conclusions gained the attention of Indonesia's President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, who set up a task force. An archaeologist who did not wish to be named due to the involvement of the country's president, stated:

In archaeology we usually find the 'culture' first … Then, after we find out the artefact's age we'll seek out historical references to any civilisation which existed around that period. Only then will we be able to explain the artefact historically. In this case, they 'found' something, carbon-dated it, then it looks like they created a civilisation around the period to explain their finding.

Plenty there about him. Doug Weller talk 12:37, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

As we mention his work on Gunung Padang, I think it's necessary to mention the criticism. Doug Weller talk 13:27, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

He did an episode of Graham Hancock's Netflix show about Atlantis, Ancient Apocalypse. There was a lot of response content that pushed back against the show, so that may aid in finding WP:FRIND sources. Rjj (talk) 04:54, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

References

1. ^ Pérez García, Víctor Lluís (2017). "Gunung Padang y el megalitismo indo-malayo: Arqueología y pseudoarqueología" (PDF). Arqueoweb: Journal of Archeology on the Internet. 18 (1): 62–104. Archived from the original (PDF) on 2018-05-05. Retrieved 12 November 2022.
2. ^ Bachelard, Michael (2013-07-27). "Digging for the truth at controversial megalithic site. Sydney Morning Herald, 27 July 2013". www.smh.com.au. Retrieved 25 November 2022.
3. Bronto, Sutikno; Langi, Billy B (2017). "Geologi Gunung Padang dan Sekitarnya, Kabupaten Cianjur–Jawa Barat" . Jurnal Geologi Dan Sumberdaya Mineral. 17 (1): 37–49. doi:10.33332/jgsm.geologi.v17i1.28 (inactive 1 August 2023).{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: DOI inactive as of August 2023 (link)

Jeremy Griffith

• Jeremy Griffith (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Discussion on the Talk page about how fringey the guy is and about whether an IP's opinion is a hindrance. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:27, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Is the lab leak at all racist? (episode 94)

• Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory#"informed by racist undercurrents" redux

Probably of interest to fringe-savvy editors. Bon courage (talk) 09:43, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Richat Structure and Atlantis (again)

A student editor, who ironically appears to be part of a class of well known pseudoarchaeology critic John Hoopes, is insisting on adding a really undue 12,000 byte addition regarding the claim that the Richat Structure is Atlantis, which includes no reliable sources specifically about the claim itself, mostly cited to YouTube videos and the conspiracy streaming service Gaia. Other eyes on the page would be appreciated. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:40, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

I've added back a small section to the article mentioning the claims. I don't think 12,000 bytes of prose is due, but a single three sentence paragraph probably suffices. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:56, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

I’ll tell John. Doug Weller talk 19:16, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Steve Fuller (sociologist)

• Steve Fuller (sociologist) (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Could use more NPOV and less FRINGE. But a WP:SPA thinks it needs less NPOV and more FRINGE. --Hob Gadling (talk) 18:19, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

That's a bizarre way to read my corrections to Fuller's entry. In fact, the entry in general suffers from a surfeit of criticism from variously (in)competent sources and a dearth of statements of Fuller's views. (Indeed, the entry is skewed very much towards the creationism debate, which is only part of what Fuller does -- though I realize that this seems to preoccupy Misplaced Pages editors.) I operate from the spirit of NPOV. If you're going to criticize the guy, at least allow him to state his position. It's as simple as that. Morgan Dorrell (talk) 10:57, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

at least allow him - WP:FRINGE says, Quotes that are controversial or potentially misleading need to be properly contextualized to avoid unintentional endorsement or deprecation.

Yes, Fuller seems to be an all-round anti-science activist but the sources concentrate on the creationism aspect. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:27, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

"There's a cabal"

Entertaining thread: Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Guerilla Skepticism on Misplaced Pages project (GSoW) --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:37, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

It's a contentious topic, and some admin inteverion (eg a block) is needed there. There are ongoing aspersions cast against good-faith WIkipedians, edit wars involving several IPs, NOTHERE ADVOCACY behaviors, and possibly MEAT happening as well. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:39, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

"The most ancient settlements in Epirus date to the Middle Paleolithic"

A claim that The most ancient traces of human settlements in Epirus can be found in the late period of the Middle Paleolithic era (40,000-30,000 years ago) on the villages of Xarrë, Konispol (Kreçmoi Cave) and Shën Mari., sourced to and has been added tot he article on Epirus. Not only do I find the sources inadequate for such a claim, but it seems to be WP:FRINGE, as there were no human settlements in the Middle Paleolithic, the earliest human settlements dating to the much later Neolithic. This seems to be a typical Balkan nationalist protochronist fringe claim, all too common in Balkan articles. Any help with this would be greatly appreciated. Khirurg (talk) 05:46, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

I do not think human settlement in this context would refer to permanent settlements. I’m pretty certain they mean evidence of human settlement in the area, not necessarily towns or fortifications, but just evidence of human habitation in the region, such as artefacts from caves and the like. That’s perfectly plausible. Although admittedly, quotes would be useful here because I don’t think it’s been translated properly. Botushali (talk) 09:13, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Biomesotherapy

• Biomesotherapy (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Does not seem to conform to MEDRS or FRINGE. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:35, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Mantell UFO incident

• Mantell UFO incident (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

An old article obviously written by UFO believers. Gives primary weight to fringe explanations. Fixed the lead a bit, but article needs major overhaul. See Talk:Mantell_UFO_incident#NPOV_and_FRINGE_issues. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:38, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Discussion on merging content boards

There is a discussion about possibly merging this notice board on Misplaced Pages:Village pump (idea lab). -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:58, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Etzel Cardeña

Etzel Cardeña (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This article is almost completely credulous and quotes a lot of argumentative claims that are fairly reproachable. Not sure what to do. jps (talk) 23:19, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

A WP:FRINGEBLP that requires criticism of his "expressed views", such as and . - LuckyLouie (talk) 00:56, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Adherents attempting to whitewash Falun Gong

As usual, we've got a group of adherents over at Falun Gong attempting to whitewash the page to fit the group's preferred narrative and hide that the group is entirely centered around the words and whims of one ultra-conversative guy who now and then claims to levitate, Li Hongzhi, over at a big compound in Deer Park, New York. There's a whole propaganda media empire behind this guy, like the Epoch Times and Shen Yun, and his group here in the US and here in Germany. See this October 2023 article from NBC for example. They openly attempt to influence elections and law, and had a lot of success under the Trump administration.

The attempts by the Falun Gong to turn this article into a propaganda leaflet has also been the subject of academic discussion. Falun Gong adherents regularly attempt to rally and push through this or that.

Realizing they can't excise almost every non-Falun Gong-aligned (and by that, usually meaning coming directly from the Falun Gong) source on the topic from the past several years, the latest strategy seems to be to try to bury what they don't like in the article by cherry picking old sources, plastering huge sections of old material about the group as victims of China to bury everything else, and endlessly—and I mean endlessly—attempting to decry most WP:RS-complaint sources from the past several years, especially media reports.

Since these editors come out of the woodwork especially when they think they can move the needle, I highly recommend more eyes and ears on this article. The Falun Gong treats it as a straight up battleground—it is after all another potential propaganda arm from which the group could benefit—and closely monitors it with any number of single purpose accounts. :bloodofox: (talk) 02:28, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I would like to speak to what happened, as I have recently been extensively involved in the talk page discussions relating to Bloodofox's recent edits on the Falun Gong article. I have been less involved with editing the article itself (probably edited less than five times over the past 3 years), due to my relative unfamiliarity with this topic, compared to other regulars at this page.

• For those unacquainted with this topic, Falun Gong has attracted sustained, intense interest from certain parts of our community for almost two decades, in part due to its importance, and its various dimensions that spans human rights, religion and politics, which is what attracted me to this page in the first place.
• On November 8 22:44 (restored after reversion on Nov 10) Bloodofox deleted 5066 characters, essentially 3 entire paragraphs out of 5 paragraphs of the lede of this article. Most of the content deleted by Bloodofox has been stable on this page for months if not years, representing the consensus of many editors from both sides, over the course of a decade, debating almost every line and sometimes word.
• The content deleted by Bloodofox includes the following:
  • How Falun Gong emerged - Source: Freedom House 2017 report.
  • What Falun Gong is - “a meditation, slow moving exercises. Self-identifies as a practise of the Buddhist school. With moral psychologies/philosophies.” Source: Freedom House 2017 report.
  • What happened to Falun Gong - “Initially supported by the Chinese government. Later alleged to be a heretical organization by the Chinese government. Finally subject to "a nationwide crackdown", "a wide range of human rights abuse", with estimated "hundreds of thousands" to be "imprisoned extrajudicially", "torture". "As of 2009, human rights groups estimated that at least 2,000 Falun Gong practitioners had died within China as a result of abuse in custody."” Sources include: Amnesty International 2000, Freedom House 2014, New York Times 2009, China Quarterly 2015.
  • Subsequent developments in Falun Gong movement - “"Millions continued to practise Falun Gong there in spite of the persecution", and "practised in over 70 countries" with "40,000 to several hundreds of thousands" of adherents.” Source: Telegraph 2009, China Quarterly 2015,
• Bloodofox replaced all of the above content with essentially one statement (which is revised and "supplemented" from an existing sentence in the next paragraph):
  • Led by Li Hongzhi, who is viewed by adherents as a deity like figure, Falun Gong practitioners operated a variety of organizations in the US and elsewhere, known for opposing the CCP, feminism, modern medicine ,and being "ultra-conversative".
  • The last assertion is almost exclusively sourced from a single NBC piece, on Epoch Times, a competing media. The first description about "led by Li Hongzhi' and "viewed by adherents as a deity like figure" appears to be sourced from none other than Bloodofox himself.
• No one can reasonably argue that the sources deleted by Bloodofox are unreliable per WP:RS, no such arguments have been made. No one to date (except presumably the Chinese government) has suggested that all the content deleted by Bloodofox is not true, especially the part concerning the persecution of Falun Gong in China.
• A WP:Lede is intended to introduce the article, and summarize its most important content, including any prominent controversies. What was previously a summary of two decades of stable scholarship and journalism of this multidimensional topic has now become a summary of one or two online articles, cherry-picked amongst the sea of sources and information on this topic.
• Is there controversies to Falun Gong? There appears to be. But Falun Gong is not just a controversy. It's also a serious religious and human rights phenomenon.
• To delete all of the above context, background and history, distilled from two decades of journalism and scholarship on this serious topic, and confer exclusive limelight to a passage from a select media article, which is not even mainly about the beliefs of Falun Gong, strikes me as POV-pushing, in serious infringement of WP:Weight, WP:Lede, WP:DUE, WP:NPOV, WP:RECENTISM and WP:SOURCETYPE.
• After being challenged See here, here, and here, on the merits of his edits, Bloodofox engaged in further edits of the same pattern. His justifications for his edits is essentially that all those who challenged his edits are "Falun Gong adherents", and that he is preventing alleged adherents a platform for their views see here, here and . He declares his belief of Falun Gong as an alleged totalitarian movement, out to essentially corrupt the world, his disdain for Falun Gong's alleged influence on conservative parties in different countries (example) and declares his motive as, I quote,
  • "And that's why we're not sweeping everything aside to smokescreen Falun Gong operations by emphasizing at every corner how evil the Chinese government is and how very persecuted Falun Gong is."
• Some editors and my attempt to restore the article to its stable version were quickly reverted by Mr. Ollie, who is also a regular on this page.

In light of all of the above. I believe that Bloodofox's edits are plainly indefensible and needs to be undone. The last version of this article that stood before Nov 8, should be restored, and I seek fellow editor's input on this discussion. Thank you all for reading this lengthy post. HollerithPunchCard (talk) 03:52, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

First, this user appears to have issued a vague threat of violence aimed at me recently ("external assistance will be inevitable") and did not deny that it was a threat when asked to clarify, preferring to again issue another vague statement. Note that I've experienced threats of violence stemming from editing this page before, and academics have also noted vague threats when studying the Falun Gong.

I believe this account gave its angle away by referring to NBC News as a "competing media" of Epoch Times in an attempt to dismiss the October 2023 report, lol. (Now what account have I heard that from before on the talk page?) Anyway, there's a mountain of this material from WP:RS from the past several years and a lot of the Freedom House stuff you're pushing often seems to just be Freedom House citing the Falun Gong. This is the equivalent of laundering a source. Such an approach ist unfortunately typical of the Falun Gong-aligned embedded accounts over at Falun Gong.

And none of this is coming from me, it's coming from a mountain of reporting from the past several years that the group has pushed to get off the article. For example, here's a quote from the NBC News report (bold added). Here's the quote I supposedly invented from the above:

"To his followers, Li is a God-like figure who can levitate, walk through walls and see into the future. His ultra-conservative and controversial teachings include a rejection of modern science, art and medicine, and a denunciation of homosexuality, feminism and general worldliness."

It is also quite well documented at this point that the Falun Gong propaganda arms include the now notorious Epoch Times, a major source for disinformation and backer of far-right politicians in both the US and here in Germany, and organizations like Shen Yun (whose false claims about folk tradition are what introduced me to the Falun Gong in the first place). The fact that this user is attempting to dance around these well-documented facts tells you a lot about what we're dealing with over at Falun Gong. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:45, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I've been editing Misplaced Pages for about 13 years off and on, and the topic of Falun Gong has always interested me from a human rights perspective as well from a contemporary religious perspective. I've stressed repeatedly to the editors involved in this current dispute that Falun Gong is a religious minority undergoing well-documented persecution in China. Within the western diaspora communities in the United States, Europe, and other countries, the group is largely an ethnic and religious minority group with a significant portion being refugees who had to leave China because of their beliefs.

The efforts of @bloodofox and @binksternet in recent days/weeks/months is an alarming attempt to take away the narrative sovereignty of this group. It is not correct at all to dismiss decades of ethnographic and religious scholarship on Falun Gong in favour of a recent article on NBC news, which takes an entirely American-centric view of the issue and focuses on the media outlets run by Falun Gong adherents rather than the religious practices. The viewpoints being pushed on the page right now come from a western hegemonic mindset that disregards the beliefs of indigenous groups (Falun Gong being an indigenous Chinese practice) in favour of arguments that align with a very specific mindset of specific westerners who don't like the way they think and act. That's called bigotry. And refusing to engage in dialogue while attacking editors as SPAs and promoting Fringe theories is disruptive to the entire encyclopedia.

Falun Gong is a sensitive and contentious subject, but we have to remember that this subject is about human beings who have human rights. It is inappropriate for a handful of WK editors who do not share their heritage and are generally unfamiliar with their beliefs to determine how the world should view them. —Zujine|talk 13:15, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

In reality, the Falun Gong is a US-based new religious movement centered around the words and whims of one guy, Li Hongzhi.

He lives at the Falun Gong compound in Dragon Springs in New York. As you know, the group intensely supported the Trump Administration and its media arm, The Epoch Times, gained special access to the Trump administration in particular. Let's not play games here: this is and has been a US-based topic since the Falun Gong leadership left China.

The NBC News article is just one of hundreds covering this topic, especially since the connection between Falun Gong, Shen Yun, and the notorious The Epoch Times became clear around 2016.:bloodofox: (talk) 13:45, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

If you have produced even a fraction of the alleged "hundreds" of articles covering this topic allegedly supporting your edit, I might have been inclined to agree with your edit. You did not. You cobbled your statement from two passing and casual descriptions of Falun Gong from two media articles, that are not even focused on this topic (they were mainly talking about EpochTimes, a media and a performing arts troupe). In so doing, you deleted perfectly credible and serious scholarship books and articles, and reports by well established human rights NGOs, some of which were published as recently as 2018 and 2019, on this topic. And in your defence of your edit, half the time you were WP:SOAPBOXing, and the other half, you were launching blatant WP:PA against other editors, discrediting their edits because of their perceived religious faith. HollerithPunchCard (talk) 14:10, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

"Epoch Times" + "Falun Gong" + any search engine = yes, hundreds of articles. No need to play games. They're indeed all over the Falun Gong talk page. We even have sources discussing Falun Gong's attempt to influence Misplaced Pages coverage. :bloodofox: (talk) 14:21, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Is "alarming attempt to take away the narrative sovereignty of this group" something like "not giving them the right to WP:OWN"? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:28, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Editors are arguing that Freedom House isn't a reliable source because they interviewed Falun Gong adherents about their experiences. That's what I mean about narrative sovereignty. The view of some editors is that the beliefs of Falun Gong should only be represented by people who disagree with them. I don't think that Falun Gong adherents should own this page, and I don't think that is the issue at question here. @Bloodofox took action on this noticeboard after going on a long string of nonconstructive edits that represent his/her/their own POV. That POV is one of aggression towards a minority group. That's my point. All of the attacks on other editors have been about their POV and trying to "out" editors as Falun Gong sympathizers. It's perfectly fine for Christians to edit pages about Christianity and for Muslims to edits pages on Islam. It would be strange to prevent people from editing on topics related to their own religious beliefs. I am not a religious person, but I try to extend respect to religious groups, and I think that an article about a religious group should be approached as a tool to understand that group. I live in Belgium. I don't know anything about NBC News, but if you're telling me that it trumps the works of scholars and human rights organizations who have spent decades researching and reporting on the subject, I have to disagree. And if a handful of editors think they have the right to define a minority group themselves by excluding the participation of people on the basis of having a potentially positive relationship with that group, I have to disagree as well. It's a regressive Euro- (or in this case American-)centric interpretations of a culturally distinct group. —Zujine|talk 17:59, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

"Editors are arguing that Freedom House isn't a reliable source because they interviewed Falun Gong adherents about their experiences" is false. Freedom House cites things like official Falun Gong websites for basic information like demographics and claims of crackdowns. We don't consider any website from the Falun Gong to be an WP:RS. :bloodofox: (talk) 23:57, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

To construe my phrase "external assistance will be inevitable", when I was plainly referring to administrator or arbitrator or other forms of external intervention, as a threat of physical violence, is an astounding distortion of the meaning of my words.

But it does show how Bloodofox tilts at windmills, in his unconcealed activism on this topic. HollerithPunchCard (talk) 13:36, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I invite anyone to take a look at this account's edit history, especially on the Falun Gong, and drawn their own conclusions. As for "unconcealed activism": one could say that I happen to be in the pocket of Big WP:RS, where I don't dance around this project's source requirements. And it's obvious that this topic, which I unfortunately fell into from the bread crumb trail around Shen Yun's manufactured "folk traditions", needs a big dose of Big WP:RS from contemporary WP:RS. And that'd be all that media coverage of the US-based empire around Li Hongzhi and crew you and a crew of 'new' editors here are keen on keeping off the article and/or burying. :bloodofox: (talk) 13:45, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

If you don't wish to "fance around wikipedia's source requirements", if you think you are above complying with Misplaced Pages's rules and policies on source, then frankly and respectfully, I think you should take a break from editing this topic. I appreciate your intense interest on this topic, but I think you are letting your activism get in the way of your editing. HollerithPunchCard (talk) 14:20, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

"Dancing around Misplaced Pages's source requirements" means "trying to circumvent Misplaced Pages's source requirements". Bloodofox does not do that. So, you think you are above complying with Misplaced Pages's rules and policies is wrong. Good luck for your next attempt at reading what people write. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:47, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I did not misread. Bloodofox changed his edit shortly after I made the above comment. HollerithPunchCard (talk) 18:23, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

You do understand that by filling up this thread with personal attacks on Bloodofox you're just proving the point, right? Somebody needs to move this mess to ANI or AE, we're going to need a few topic bans to be handed out I think. MrOllie (talk) 18:29, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Pointing out how Bloodofox's assertion, that whoever disagrees with his edits are Falun Gong adherents, are not arguments to support his deletion of two decades of journalism and scholarship on this topic is not a personal attack. And I think you should explain why you reverted other editors' attempts to restore these deleted sources on this article that has been stable for months, if not years. HollerithPunchCard (talk) 19:12, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

That is not what you are doing, both here and elsewhere. I note your attempt to change the subject, but I decline to help you with that. MrOllie (talk) 19:25, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

• I've added the article to my watchlist and I agree that more input is needed. Further lengthy discussion from the main dispute participants here is not helpful. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:59, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

From the getgo I'm deeply uncomfortable with how this is being raised here. First and foremost: I don't want to wade into this topic for a multitude of reasons; while I have a strong interest in minority religions this topic is, uh, contentious, to say the least, and requires a lot of expertise.

That said, I don't think using the language you are here is appropriate. People of a religion are allowed to edit their own wikipedia article as long as they follow WP:RS, and referring to Falun Gong in the same way as one might refer to people who ardently believe in water memory ignores the fact that one is an outright religion, and the other has only has adherents in the way a religion does.

@Zujine was right to raise narrative sovereignty, though I think the word choices were poor. People belonging to a religion are typically the most educated on the topic of that religion. That doesn't mean an encyclopedia is the place for presenting ones theology as true, but this language which paints Falun Gong's members themselves as the problem, rather than a certain subset. You can't use as broad a brush as is being used here just because their religious beliefs themselves are controversial.

Religions are not fringe theories. I do not think that Falun Gong is an appropriate topic for FTN, but I may be alone in that. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 23:39, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

The Falun Gong is a new religious movement focused on Li Hongzhi, who promotes all sorts of fringe theories about, for example, modern medicine. This is echoed by the group's media arms, like Epoch Times, one of the biggest spreaders of fringe theories in the United States, ranging from vaccines to climate change. It would be difficult to find a more suitable candidate for discussion here than the Falun Gong. :bloodofox: (talk) 23:53, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I didn't say I'm not familiar with it; I wouldn't be as opposed to wading into this situation if I was. :)

"Li Hongzhi, who promotes all sorts of fringe theories about, for example, modern medicine"

Address those on a case by case basis.

"This is echoed by the group's media arms, like Epoch Times"

Absolutely worth mentioning in both the main article and the article on the Epoch Times. The article on Falun Gong itself still needs to maintain an NPOV and just making the article a laundry list of their fringe sins won't fly.

"It would be difficult to find a more suitable candidate for discussion here than the Falun Gong."

Then I think you need to take a biiiiiig step back on this topic. A religion is not a fringe theory, even if it contains or supports fringe theory elements. You're may have a hard time sidestepping just naked prejudice in this process otherwise, it seems? Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 00:13, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Falun Gong is absolutely a fringe topic that needs to be monitored for fringe promotion. The religious group has actively promoted pseudoscience and conspiracy theories, along with helping push such nonsense as Qanon, among many others. If it hadn't been for the decades of all of that, I would be more sympathetic to the claims regarding it as a religion above. But when the religious movement chose to be a mouthpiece for fringe quackery, it became a topic of concern for this noticeboard. Silverseren 23:50, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't disagree that topics relating to Falun Gong need to be approached as fringe topics. Any beliefs which they harbour which are inherently fringe theories, which admittedly are abundant, should be handled on a case-by-case basis. We don't treat the obvious pseudolinguistics of speaking in tongues to be an excuse to bring Pentecostalism under the purview of FTN. Falun Gong itself is a religion, and we need to be careful not to just stomp on WP:NPOV and likely WP:SOAPBOX in addressing what does seem to be some NPOV edits on the other side of the spectrum. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 00:08, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

It is a religion that is much more on the level of a cult of personality around one person and it is that person who has purposefully used the religion they created to push the fringe nonsense. So, no, you can't deal with the religious part separate from the fringe part, as they are purposefully intertwined by the creator and adherents. It is an inherent aspect of the group as a whole. Silverseren 00:11, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

"It is a religion that is much more on the level of a cult of personality around one person and it is that person who has purposefully used the religion they created to push the fringe nonsense."

Well that's certainly one un-nuanced take. Not exactly certain why it belongs in an article on wikipedia since it's blatantly ignoring any pretence of an NPOV approach. A religion is more than its leadership, its also the lived experiences of its adherents. Plenty of religions have very strong central figureheads who abuse their position, that's not unique to Falun Gong.

Also, to re-quote this:

It is a religion that is much more on the level of a cult of personality

I'm beyond uncomfortable with a random member of FTN (or any part of wikipedia) attempting to arbitrate what is and isn't a legitimate religion for the purposes of whether or not it falls under FTN's watchful eye. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 00:15, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

This statement: I'm beyond uncomfortable with a random member of FTN (or any part of wikipedia) attempting to arbitrate what is and isn't a legitimate religion for the purposes of whether or not it falls under FTN's watchful eye. and this one: I do not think that Falun Gong is an appropriate topic for FTN do not appear to be compatible. MrOllie (talk) 00:22, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Of course it's compatible. "Religions are not fringe theories" is a perfectly coherent stance, one which actually made it to the serious level of policy suggestion (albeit a failed one) at Misplaced Pages. We shouldn't be trying to come up with criteria for what counts as a "real religion" here when even scholars of religious studies have generally done away with that value judgement and even the term "cult" in general. Religions just are what they are; both internally and externally diverse.

The point is we shouldn't be trying to ascribe degrees of legitimacy to religious topics to determine whether they're sociological/anthropological topics or fringe theores. We can absolutely tackle individual beliefs which are fringe theories, but we cannot extrapolate that back to calling a religion itself a fringe theory. Raelism is obviously inherently based on a fringe theory (UFOs!) but that doesn't mean it's not a serious religion. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 00:28, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Cults of personality are still religions, just based around singular people. A lot of the new religious movement groups are organized as such. You seem to have a really strong POV trying to support Falun Gong for some reason. I'm just stating general well-known, and well cited in the article even, information about the group. Misplaced Pages is not meant to be a representation of what adherents of a religion think their group is or what it's about, Misplaced Pages is about what reliable sources and especially academic sources say about the subject, purposefully independent of anything connected to the religion in question. Silverseren 00:23, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Study: Why Misplaced Pages is the Last Good Website

Rebecca Watson writes about Sverrir Steinsson writing about Misplaced Pages's handling of fringe subjects: --Hob Gadling (talk) 20:10, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

What a joke! Her feel-good everything is okay no need to worry attitude is ill-informed. The rules are only in place until they are changed. Yes, Misplaced Pages may be the Last Good Website, and the reasons she mentions might be good ones, but it's people we need. Well-trained pro-science dedicated and fair people. Admins are overworked and at a low-time number, so acting as if they are plentiful and sitting around waiting for something to do is nonsense. She would do better to use her audience to actually ask for more people to train-up and help. This kind of nonsense hits a nerve with me. Sgerbic (talk) 21:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Oh and thank you Hob for posting the article, I don't follow her content normally. Sgerbic (talk) 21:27, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I tried to post a comment and the spam filter blocked me. --Orange Mike | Talk 22:08, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I was looking for comments on her blog, but still nothing. I assume she has to approve them. I am stunned with all the ads that are all over that blog. Says a lot about the blogger. Sgerbic (talk) 22:52, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

The video in the article already has 15K views and 300+ comments. Everyone says they love Misplaced Pages and throws them donations. Nothing mentioned about needing more volunteers to help. Just feel-good everything is fine thanks for letting us know. Sgerbic (talk) 23:03, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

To be a bit overly fair, it is not really incumbent upon either Ms. Watson or the author of the paper to advocate for Misplaced Pages. It's possible to say "it's interesting how this thing works" while not supporting said thing in the optimal manner. Just another county heard from! Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 23:13, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Is there a reason for your extremely toxic response to a general video about Misplaced Pages? You seem to have a personal issue with Watson. Silverseren 00:18, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

I think this mostly speaks to the badness of the rest of the internet rather than Misplaced Pages being "good". Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:26, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

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