Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:49, 22 November 2023

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Pseudoscience article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16Auto-archiving period: 2 months

Template:Vital article

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to pseudoscience and fringe science, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Arbitration Ruling on the Treatment of Pseudoscience In December of 2006 the Arbitration Committee ruled on guidelines for the presentation of topics as pseudoscience in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience. The final decision was as follows: Neutral point of view as applied to science: Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, a fundamental policy, requires fair representation of significant alternatives to scientific orthodoxy. Significant alternatives, in this case, refers to legitimate scientific disagreement, as opposed to pseudoscience. Serious encyclopedias: Serious and respected encyclopedias and reference works are generally expected to provide overviews of scientific topics that are in line with respected scientific thought. Misplaced Pages aspires to be such a respected work. Obvious pseudoscience: Theories which, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus, such as Time Cube, may be so labeled and categorized as such without more justification. Generally considered pseudoscience: Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience. Questionable science: Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized. Alternative theoretical formulations: Alternative theoretical formulations which have a following within the scientific community are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Pseudoscience. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Pseudoscience at the Reference desk.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Skepticism Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Sociology Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sociology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of sociology on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SociologyWikipedia:WikiProject SociologyTemplate:WikiProject Sociologysociology Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Alternative medicine This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative medicine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Alternative medicine related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Alternative medicineWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative medicineTemplate:WikiProject Alternative medicineAlternative medicine Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Alternative views Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative views, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion.Alternative viewsWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative viewsTemplate:WikiProject Alternative viewsAlternative views Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Paranormal Top‑importance This article falls under the scope of WikiProject Paranormal, which aims to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to the paranormal and related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit the attached article, help with current tasks, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and discussions.ParanormalWikipedia:WikiProject ParanormalTemplate:WikiProject Paranormalparanormal Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Philosophy: Logic / Science Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Philosophy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of content related to philosophy on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the general discussion about philosophy content on Misplaced Pages.PhilosophyWikipedia:WikiProject PhilosophyTemplate:WikiProject PhilosophyPhilosophy Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Associated task forces: /  Logic Philosophy of science Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Science Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Science, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Science on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ScienceWikipedia:WikiProject ScienceTemplate:WikiProject Sciencescience Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Both the hard and soft sciences have problems with pseudoscience

Forgive me if I have missed coverage of this in the article, but the strong opposition to adding Holocaust denial to this article/subject leads me to think we need to deal with this topic in this article. I suspect that we tend to think of pseudoscience only from the background of denial of the facts in the hard sciences.

Because "Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge" (Sagan), we need to get away from focusing on the "denial of facts" common to all pseudoscientific claims. It's more about "wrong thinking" (logical fallacies) than "wrong facts". The wrong facts of pseudohistory (as in holocaust denial) are often completely different than the wrong facts of pseudoscience (like homeopathy and chiropractic "vertebral subluxation"), but the logical fallacies are the same, ergo both types are pseudoscientific.

I think much of the problem is related to various demarcation issues, differing terminologies, and the confluence and similarities of the logical fallacies that occur in both pseudohistory and pseudoscience. Also, how does one define science? There are several types: hard, soft, natural, social, etc. I am not a good person to do this, as I am not an expert at discussing all the epistemological angles of this stuff. My background is in the hard sciences, specifically medical science, not the soft/social sciences.

So we need coverage (maybe one good paragraph would be enough) of pseudoscience as wrong thinking, per Sagan. If something involves wrong thinking, it might be categorized as pseudoscience. That should be our inclusion criteria. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:15, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes I would agree. The demarcation problem is a central thing here, and I think we should provide several different methods of it from the most salient thinkers on the subject.Good sources for such a paragraph would include:

• Carl Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World
• Michael Shermer's Science and Pseudoscience: Revisiting the Demarcation Problem and The Skeptic encyclopedia of pseudoscience
• Brian Regal's Pseudoscience : a critical encyclopedia
• Massimo Pigliucci's Philosophy of pseudoscience : reconsidering the demarcation problem
• Martin Gardner's Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science
• Scott Lilienfeld's Science and pseudoscience in clinical psychology
• William Williams' Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience : From Alien Abductions to Zone Therapy
• Ben Goldacre's Bad Science

— Shibbolethink 18:50, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

It seems to me that the way to mention these subjects would be to take Pseudo-scholarship out of the ==See also== section and explain its relationship to this narrower subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:47, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

External links

There are ten entries in the "External links". Three seems to be an acceptable number and of course, everyone has their favorite to add for four. The problem is that none is needed for article promotion.

• ELpoints #3) states: Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links.
• LINKFARM states: There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to the external links section of an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Misplaced Pages. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate.
• WP:ELMIN: Minimize the number of links.

The "External links" section needs trimming. -- Otr500 (talk) 08:45, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

We're not in linkfarm territory as the links obviously don't dwarf the article. Which links are you proposing to remove and why? VQuakr (talk) 17:18, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Reply: I apologize for any sarcasm that might seem evident, and I mean this in the nicest of ways, but I cannot (or will not) discuss or debate with someone that would argue that blue is not really blue. Your reply causes me to be flabbergasted. Nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links, unequivocally doesn't mean 6, 8, or 10. See: ELNO #1 Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article. In other words, the site should not merely repeat information that is already or should be in the article. Links that may be used to improve the page in the future can be placed on the article's talk page. As an afterthought; everything looks great. -- Otr500 (talk) 02:10, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Not what I said but ok. VQuakr (talk) 21:14, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Three or four may be a typical number, but there is no rule saying that 10 can't be offered. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:49, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Feyerabend

I have removed the line about Paul Feyerabend under ===Criticism of the term===, because the cited source does not criticize the term, or even say anything about it. A quick search indicates that the entire book contains exactly one instance of the word pseudoscience, in the preface, when he says that Kuhn's terminology has "turned up in various forms of pseudoscience". Feyerabend using the term without comment does not make sense as a source to support a claim that he criticized the term, and the question of the dividing line between Science (e.g., physics) and Non-science (e.g., theology) does not make really sense for an article that is neither about science nor about non-science nor about the dividing line between the two. I have wondered whether it might have been added primarily as a coatrack for the quotation in the note, which is about a different source. If someone feels strongly about Misplaced Pages including that information, I suggest that you move it to an article like Demarcation problem instead. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:00, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Should UFO still be categorized as Pseudoscience and fringe science?

Creationism vs Creation Science

I understand that the list for pseudoscience's is a quote,

"that creationism, astrology, homeopathy, Kirlian photography, dowsing, ufology, ancient astronaut theory, Holocaust denialism, Velikovskian catastrophism, and climate change denialism are pseudosciences."

but should the link for creationism be changed to Creation Science rather than Creationism, seeing that that page is dedicated to the specific pseudoscientific claims instead of Creationism, which is more philosophical. Chip K. Daniels (talk) 05:47, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Creationism has sections on different types. Young Earth creationism, Gap creationism, Day-age creationism, Progressive creationism, Creation science, Neo-creationism, Intelligent design, Geocentrism, Omphalos hypothesis are all pseudoscience.

changing the link seems like a reasonable suggestion to me. and if creation science is what we use for that subject on wikipedia, i think it makes sense for the text to also be changed to Creation Science. Handpigdad (talk) 04:52, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

We use the term "creation science" for creation science and "creationism" for creationism. Both are pseudoscience (see my contribution above; I moved yours down because it is newer, see WP:THREAD), so there is no good reason to replace it. --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:53, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Merge proposal Cargo cult science

I propose merging Cargo cult science into Pseudoscience. Cargo cult science (not to be confused with Cargo cult) it is just a definition (WP:NOTDICTIONARY) and the whole article is based entirely on Richard Feynman speech. A quick mention in pseudoscience would be enough. Another option would be to RM cargo cult science into somehting like "Feynmans's 1934 commencement speech". --ReyHahn (talk) 14:39, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree with the proposal to merge. Feynman's thoughts on the topic might merit more than a quick mention here; perhaps a paragraph.--Srleffler (talk) 22:00, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Not a bad idea. I don't think the speech is notable as a speech; unlike, say, "We choose to go to the Moon", nobody talks about the build-up to it, the process of writing it, etc. XOR'easter (talk) 16:45, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

One could also compare to Feynman's own There's Plenty of Room at the Bottom. I don't think we can write a similar article from references to this speech. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 17:18, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Strong oppose. I link to this article frequently. I like it the way it is. WP:USEFUL says usefulness is a necessary but not sufficient criterion for including an article on Misplaced Pages, so I concede that the mere fact that I find this article useful may be insufficient reason to refrain from putting a thumb in my eye. The reason I look at Misplaced Pages is because I find it useful. I wish there were a way for the number of off-site links to a Misplaced Pages article to count for something. My first question is: who or what is being harmed by the existence of the Cargo cult science article? That is, what purpose does the proposed merge serve? And "enough" for what? (With reference to the evidence-free assertion "A quick mention in pseudoscience would be enough.") Feynman made points in this speech that resonate to the current day and which bear on the Replication crisis in social psychology and related fields. Feynman anticipated that crisis decades before it came to light, and he might have prevented it, had more people heeded his advice. The talk was also reprinted verbatim in Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman! (an article that links to Cargo cult science, naturally) and is arguably part of what made that book a best-seller in its niche and keeps the book relevant. Also, the year for the speech was 1974, not 1934. --Teratornis (talk) 08:31, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

The question is about notability, since the whole article is based on the speech itself. Before this discussion, there was some preliminary discussion at WT:PHYS#Cargo_cult_science. Btw, WP:NOHARM is another argument to be avoided.

That being said, I am a bit uncomfortable with merging to Pseudoscience. That article should focus on the big picture, and a brief mention of Feynman's talk there may seem like trivia. The book Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman! might be better target for merge. It would also allow more of the current content to be preserved. Perhaps have a section of its own there. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 09:31, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I can understand if this is not the right target but an article just to provide a definition does not seem right WP:Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary. Either the article is about the speech or about pseudoscientific practices. As an alternative I would agree with merging it into Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!.--ReyHahn (talk) 11:31, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Why would you merge it into a 1985 book, when it comes from a 1974 speech (which was reprinted in the campus magazine at the time, and other places later)? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:51, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose: cargo cult science is such a typical Feynman thing that is deserves its own article, as it has now. It definitely needs to be mentioned and wikilinked in this Pseudoscience article. - DVdm (talk) 09:34, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

But then if you oppose could you provide your opinion on what the article should be about, is it about pseudoscientific practices or about Feynman's speech?--ReyHahn (talk) 11:29, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I.m.o. the current article is just fine as it is. DVdm (talk) 13:42, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Would you be against rewriting the lead to make it about the Feynman's speech?--ReyHahn (talk) 14:12, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

• I just went through the articles that link to it, only 7 article cite it without relegating it to "See Also" but except for one, all the rest link to cargo cult science by making a reference to Feynman "Feyman in his speech...". The article seems to be just an easter egg to Feynman and not about cargo cult practices.--ReyHahn (talk) 14:08, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose, Cargo-Cult Science refers to action where researchers do not know what to do and refer to methods where it resembles scientific ones while it is actually an imitation of scientific thought. It does not always happens in fields where it is accepted as pseudoscience, for instance it can happen in physics. Cactus Ronin (talk) 18:20, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

While this has become a common metaphorical interpretation of the phrase "cargo cult" it is not what Feynman described in his address. The entire thing is just a colorful description of confirmation bias. 2601:642:4600:3F80:80FC:12CB:6E21:D6E2 (talk) 02:49, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Should cargo-cult science remain as it is? Is it truly a term if it does not refer to Feynman?--ReyHahn (talk) 16:21, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Cargo cult is a specific type of pseudoscience, and a reasonable place to have an article per WP:SUMMARY. It is not (as of this writing) a mere dictionary definition of the term. VQuakr (talk) 17:56, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

• Pseudoscience articles under contentious topics procedure
• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• All unassessed articles
• B-Class Skepticism articles
• Top-importance Skepticism articles
• WikiProject Skepticism articles
• B-Class sociology articles
• Mid-importance sociology articles
• B-Class Alternative medicine articles
• B-Class Alternative views articles
• Top-importance Alternative views articles
• WikiProject Alternative views articles
• B-Class paranormal articles
• Top-importance paranormal articles
• WikiProject Paranormal articles
• B-Class Philosophy articles
• Mid-importance Philosophy articles
• B-Class logic articles
• Mid-importance logic articles
• Logic task force articles
• B-Class philosophy of science articles
• Mid-importance philosophy of science articles
• Philosophy of science task force articles
• B-Class science articles
• Top-importance science articles