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Selfstudier

Bloodofox

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Bloodofox

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

HollerithPunchCard (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 02:55, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Bloodofox (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

A topic ban of indefinite or sufficient duration against Bloodofox pursuant to Arbitration Decision December 2022

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Since September 27, 2023, @Bloodofox made dozens of radical changes to Falun Gong, a protected topic WP:CTOP, against community feedback and without consensus.

All attempts for civil, rational, content-focused discussions have failed and are met with aspersions and personal attacks. Attempts to salvage deleted content are quickly reverted (sometimes with the help of another editor, @MrOllie), despite reasoned objections on the talk page. Constructive editing on this topic is currently impossible.

Respectfully, this editor has breached numerous WP:PAGs and including WP:PA, WP:NPOV, WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, WP:NOTADVOCATE, WP:FORUM, WP:ASPERSIONS, WP: BATTLEGROUND, WP: RECENT, WP: LEDE, WP: SOURCETYPE. AE sanctions are necessary to restore normal order and function to this contentious topic.

Removals of stable, well sourced content without discussion

• 09/27/2023 - Diff Diff. Deleted almost two full paragraphs, containing 11 academic sources, on the organizational structure of Falun Gong. This material had been stable and largely uncontested for years. Edit summary claims the information is “obviously incorrect” and outdated, but provides no evidence to support this contention.

• On the talk page, Link other editors point out that the deleted material was well supported by academic experts on Falun Gong, including by a major 2019 scholarly work. Moreover, even if FLG’s organizational structure had changed over time, the encyclopedia should describe that evolution, rather than erasing historical findings.

• Diff Bloodofox offers no evidence on the talk page to support his position, but edit wars to enforce it.

• 11/08/2023 to 11/15/2023 - Diff Removes three full paragraphs of the Lede, along with more than 10 academic sources, human rights NGO reports and media reports that introduced Falun Gong’s history, basic theological beliefs, and the persecution by the Chinese government. The deleted material had been stable for years, if not a decade.

• Other editors argued that deletion of important aspects of this topic, to give greater and exclusive focus to recent media articles and controversies, fails , , , , and Link, Diff, Diff, Diff, Diff, Diff.

• Diff - Bloodofox edit wars to prevent other editors from partially restoring deleted content.

Activism, Personal Attacks and Uncivil Conduct

• Diff, Diff Pushed a POV (e.g. by declaring Falun Gong-related pages as a WP:BATTLEGROUND); did not assume good faith; refused to engage in reaching consensus or making compromise, tries to canvas other editors to join his cause.

• Diff Conducts advocacy and activism against the subject matter, Link, Diff calling of removal of all information and sources uncritical about Falun Gong from Misplaced Pages.
• Diff, Diff, Diff, Diff Cast aspersions and attacks editors who disagree with him as an “adherent” - Continues despite warning and objections - Diff, Diff. Personal attacks on the basis of perceived religious belief.

More explanations and examples are available if the Administrator deems necessary or helpful to determine this request. If so, I would kindly request leave to exceed the word limit to provide these further examples and explanations.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

• 28 February 2021 Bloodofox was believed to be subject to a 0RR ban in February 2021 for editing on this subject, under Discretionary Sanctions. Ban appears to be lifted shortly.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

• Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on Date by Username (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
• Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 15 November 2023(see the system log linked to above).
• Successfully appealed all their own sanctions relating to the area of conflict, on 3 March 2021.
• Otherwise made edits indicating an awareness of the contentious topic.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Over the past two weeks, Bloodofox has made approximately 32 edits to this article, radically changing this article from its last version that stood in September 2023, which version has been substantially stable for months, if not years. Virtually all attempts to restore deleted content, or to revert his/her edits, were reverted within hours. I believe that AE sanctions against Bloodofox are warranted. This article should be rolled back to the version that stood prior to Bloodofox’s first recent edit on September 27, 2023, so that any contested edit can be discussed individually based on the usual WP:BRD cycle.

Response to allegations

• Re Boomerang sanctions and content dispute allegations - just want to be clear that I have not sought to add or remove any content from the article, as far as content goes, prior to this AE request. What I did was to question and criticize the large scale removal of WP:RS based on the WP:PAGs, edit warring to enforce this removal and here, calling other accounts including me adherents, and advocating against the subject matter, to justify such removal. What was supposed to be a WP:BRD cycle has turned into an Edit War/Auto Revert - Cast Aspersion cycle, which I called to end at talk before resorting to this AE request. I'm quite surprised at the prospect that battleground, edit warring and casting aspersion at other editors for their perceived religious identity/beliefs is not sanctionable, but calling for an end to such behaviour is. It may assist to review the Diffs provided by both sides in their entire context.

• Response to Binksternet - Even at this AE request, I continue to be labelled as an adherent, which is baseless and contrary to WP:PA. I have edited the main-space of this article less than five times over the past 3 years, and have been called an adherent as soon as I made any contributions to this topic since day 1. Btw, Binksternet also diff diff edit-warred to enforce Bloodofox's deletion of stable content, and is an involved party in these incidents. HollerithPunchCard (talk) 17:45, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

• Re canvassing - I notified Bloodofox, Warrenmck and Sennala of this AE request and no one else. I notified these 3 because they are the parties directly involved in the WP:NPA incident cited above, on both sides, and in my view, ought to have standing to participate in this proceeding.

• Re ScottishFinnishRadish - I totally understand and agree with SFR's point. On hindsight, I was probably over-assertive in some of my reactions to Bloodofox's WP:ASPERSIONS. It does take reciprocal willingness from both sides to partake in the WP:BRD cycle, and I've come to realize that sometimes, the only sensible solution is to walk away from these situations. This is why I have stopped participating in these discussions, including Bloodofox's latest foray in the RS Noticeboard (the third noticeboard this controversy has been to now - for those who still believe this is a matter for the noticeboard). However, unless something is being done here, me and other editors walking away from this situation is not going to restore the WP:BRD process to this topic area, or undo the Bloodofox's edit-war enforced edits, which is increasingly clear, goes against the grain of community consensus (See The RS Noticeboard Discussion). And soon enough, this topic area is going to be the property of Bloodofox and the handful of self-identified regulars and yes - they do have a POV on this subject matter. HollerithPunchCard (talk) 04:03, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified here

Discussion concerning Bloodofox

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Bloodofox

First, it's worth highlighting that if there's a WP:RS on the article from the past several years, chances are I added it. This also includes building articles like Falun Gong headquarters and compound Dragon Springs, which the Falun Gong article somehow didn't mention at all, and adding lots of material to Epoch Times, the very visible and now quite notorious media branch (or as NBC News puts it "propaganda newsletter") of the Li Hongzhi-centered new religious movement, and others. I first encountered all this when tracing bogus claims of folk traditions around Falun Gong's Shen Yun a few years ago.

Note that the crux of this editor's desire here is that "this article should be rolled back to the version that stood prior to Bloodofox’s first recent edit on September 27, 2023". In other words, they want all the many sources I've introduced from the past several years removed and the editor's preferred, much more 'positive' sources restored, many of them from decades old. In short, this is a content dispute with the openly expressed goal of getting all that less-than-flattering mainstream media coverage, like this very recent NBC News piece, removed from the article in one fell swoop. And they also want me gone so I can't add anymore ("a topic ban of indefinite or sufficient duration"). @HollerithPunchCard: (and most of those echoing his point here) have made lots of edits like this one, where they outright attempt to remove the NBC News piece and media reporting like it, reacting with outrage when we've dared to report on these matters. Revealingly, in an attempt to remove the NBC News reports and those like it, you'll often find some of the accounts below referring to the NBC News and similar entities as "competing media" with the Epoch Times.

That is not normal editing.

As you can probably picture from that read, our Falun Gong and related articles are rough corners of Misplaced Pages. But this is not because we lack RS. This is solely because Falun Gong and related articles are actively lobbied and edited by groups of adherents.

Some of whom have identified themselves on the relevant talk page over the years and some of them have not.

We know this because (1) what would otherwise be totally normal edits and even praised additions of new and quality WP:RS instead typically provoke intense backlash, taunts, and insults, and (2) because scholars have outright written about the Falun Gong's and its leader's Li Hongzhi's attempts to control Misplaced Pages coverage (see for example discussion about this in Lewis 2018: 80). This is exactly the behavior described by scholars like Lewis and it's a reality anyone who attempts to edit any Falun Gong-related article faces.

While I usually ignore personal attacks, I've been on Misplaced Pages a long time and I have never experienced anything like what comes my way from editing these articles. The sheer venom aimed at me for even the most pedestrian and rote article change is remarkable. I can't tell you how many names I've been called there from any number of accounts. Any proposed addition or change from an RS is met with total hostility.

This includes the one who brings this request to your table, @HollerithPunchCard:, who has referred to me as everything from a "vandal" to an "activist" (see this very page) while other editors casually toss around "bigot" (see @Zujine: and others below), to whatever else is on hand to throw my way. It's frankly abusive. And this account is not alone. One CLEANSTART account, @Sennalen:, that followed me around responding to every Falun Gong-related post I made with insults and taunts finally got a 30-some hour block earlier today for it. Back from their block, I see this user is right back at it. Although this account has not disclosed it, it is highly likely this account has edited various Falun Gong-related articles extensively in the past.

I also note that it also looks like the initial poster is engaging in naked Misplaced Pages:Canvassing, including canvasing Sennalen while that account was blocked for lobbing endless personal attacks at me.

I highly recommend WP:BOOMERANG here. Like many embedded accounts at Falun Gong articles, this account has done little more than attempt to remove information, like the NBC News report and numerous others from the past several years, and attempted to stop other accounts from adding more while lobbing a huge amount of personal attacks every step of the way. :bloodofox: (talk) 09:35, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Just a note that the self-injection of @ScottishFinnishRadish: here and, quite newly, over at Falun Gong appears to stem from things not going his way in a content dispute with me over at conspiracy theorist JP Sears's article, where I similarly provided a bunch of media sources that now make up much of the article.

To his credit he opens with a mention of that dispute below (which I had in fact totally forgotten about) but this frankly isn't the place to rehash that or grind axes.

Far more important is that we've got WP:RS discussing Falun Gong adherents historically attempting to control the article and accounts like Thomas Meng (talk · contribs) have previously in fact identified themselves as Falun Gong adherents. Take a gander at this account's attempts at using sources like the Epoch Times.

Enduring both these accounts and drive-by editors telling us to look the other way is a fact that any editor foolish enough to thanklessly edit these ultra-fringe article and attempt to introduce WP:RS currently simply has to deal with. (Remember how that worked out with the Church of Scientology attempting to do exactly the same thing?)

Now, this post is quickly turning into a place for cheap shots and score settling aimed at me spilling over from WP:FRINGE spaces I've edited. I wonder how long it's going to be before the cryptozoologists and Young Earthers come in to try to get their digs in. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:12, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish: unfortunately provides me with yet another example of WP:WIKISTALKING. Again, where the account both complained about discussing editor behavior while consistently doing exactly that, ScottishFinnishRadish notably just recently popped up on Falun Gong for round two. This editor seems to have no concern for the actual content of the article, adding nothing to the article itself but filling up the talk page with lots of complaining.

Unfortunately, it appears that myself and other editors there attempting to do more than allow for Falun Gong's narrative to supersede RS coverage just have to deal with this kind of thing as coming with the territory, but the project would really do well with added policies around protecting veteran editors who are foolish enough to put themselves through the nonsense that comes with bringing RS into WP:FRINGE spaces that don't echo the subject's preferred presentation of itself (and I'm referring to me as dumb here).

This is the only corner of Misplaced Pages where I get accounts following me around, sometimes for years, almost entirely because I've crossed a line by adding a bunch of WP:RS where there weren't before. As a reminder, on Falun Gong, there was no mention whatsoever of the Epoch Times, Shen Yun, or Dragon Springs before I came around. A group of accounts there really hates that. Guess who.

Since then, I've been a huge target there. It's been the same with JP Sears, cryptozoology, Satanic panic topics like Carl Raschke (the now blocked article's subject and his son even harassed an individual in real life thinking it was me—some poor soul who lives in the USA!), and dozens of other article subjects: I'm public enemy number one to fringe proponents of all types here and situations like this make for an easy dogpile. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:40, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Note that the quote @Thomas Meng: below claims "trivializes" Falun Gong persecution is a direct quote from a 2022 US State Dept report. Give me a break with these WP:SPAs. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:37, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Statement by MrOllie

The above is more or less just detailing a content dispute - it's a nothingburger, and I would say that this board shouldn't bother at all, but the OPs own behavior bears a serious look. Here's a collection of talk page quotations from HollerithPunchCard on this topic area:

• "the naked animosity and prejudice he declared against the subject of this article and other editors who disagreed with him."
• "I think you should take a break from editing this topic."
• "half the time you were WP:SOAPBOXing, and the other half, you were launching blatant WP:PA against other editors"
• "But it does show how Bloodofox tilts at windmills, in his unconcealed activism on this topic."
• "If this pattern of disruption continues, external assistance will be inevitable."
• "In my respective view, we are witnessing a vandalization and clear POV-pushing on this page, committed by Bloodofox and Binksternet, and a few others."
• "I think you need to stop peddling your personal views and speculations to dictate what source is reliable and what is not. There is clear guidance on WP:RS which you should refer to when trying to exclude a source, than to rely on your own thinly veiled prejudice on this matter."
• "Binksternet is blatantly peddling his undisguised personal views to support his reverts."
• "Your personal experience on wikipedia simply doesn't matter. "

I submit that this level of repeated incivility and personal attacks is a case where a WP:BOOMERANG, perhaps in the form of a topic ban, would be the best thing for the encyclopedia. - MrOllie (talk) 03:23, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

PS: I'll also note that the OP is presently engaged in canvassing support for this report: ,

Statement by Rjjiii

Is this not a content dispute? I mostly see Bloodofox removing content that cites primary sources and adding content from secondary sources.

For example: Diff - calling of removal of all information and sources uncritical about Falun Gong from Misplaced Pages.

But Bloodofox's actual words are, "It's no secret that the Chinese government persecutes religious groups of all stripes. Yet we don't consider the Falun Gong to be a reliable source for anything around these parts, and any source that takes the group's word uncritically and at face value needs to go from this site and arguably Misplaced Pages as a whole. That's a clear violation of WP:RS.".

The above comment is from a description of why Bloodofox removed large chunks of content cited to Freedom House. He explained in a lengthy message on the Falun Gong talk page why Freedom House articles citing and quoting Falun Gong, should be considered a primary source and not reliable secondary coverage. HollerithPunchCard commented in that discussion, "I'm beyond uncomfortable with the sweeping extirpation of stable content on this article by Blood".

The open thread at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#NGO Freedom House citing Falun Gong sources (Epoch Times, etc.) seems the more appropriate place to resolve the dispute, Rjj (talk) 07:08, 21 November 2023 (UTC) Update: I made the post above before I saw that the filer has canvassed support from others who had disagreed with Bloodofox.Rjj (talk) 03:51, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Warrenmck

I'm one of the users who was pinged by HollerithPunchCard on my talk page. I'm somewhat in agreement that it feels a little inappropriately editorialized and targeted at people with a certain perspective, but I do think it wouldn't have been as bad if it'd been made clearer I was involved as the target of some of the uncivil behaviour in the diffs above. I considered an ANI myself but was frankly too exhausted from the whole thing.

I'm inclined to wholly agree with HollerithPunchCard, and I do think it's erroneous to call this a content dispute. I think Bloodofox was incredibly out of line. When I raised FTN mission creep and concerns that we shouldn't treat a religion as a fringe theory, but rather practices which are themselves fringe, I got met with

"I'm sure the Falun Gong and its many misinformation arms like the Epoch Times would be more than happy to hear that you think discussing them should be forbidden. And why not let this poor multi-billion dollar org spread anti-vaccine, anti-evolution, anti-climate change, and so on in peace to millions in the US, Canada, and Europe without troubling them with reporting on it?"

And it never really improved from there. Beyond implying repeatedly that I was an "adherent" for disagreeing with them, I think MrOllie warrants a look here for their behaviour as well.

It is utterly impossible to have a civil discussion on a complex, nuanced topic when users are browbeating any other perspective and both strawmanning and casting aspersions at editors trying to engage in good faith. Diff Diff. Both MrOllie and Bloodofox were essentially refusing to let discussion take place which didn't align with their preferred outcome, and assuming everyone who didn't immediately align with them was out to censor criticism of Falun Gong, rather than methodological or meta concerns.

I expressed concern with trying to monitor an entire religion via FTN as an inappropriate use of it, while at no point saying that addressing fringe topics which may exist within that religion do not belong there. I'm trying to act in good faith, but I was definitely concerned with FTN being used for a religion writ whole, and there was more than a small amount of religious intolerance being thrown around in that thread.

My only request is that any admins looking at this please look at the chain of conversations that took place there and ask how well-meaning editors with contrary perspectives were meant to engage civilly without getting completely misrepresented for having the gall to disagree with the two posters who had decided this topic was theirs to dictate the outcome of. If my own behaviour was out of line in that thread, by all means WP:BOOMERANG me, I want my behaviour to be in line with Misplaced Pages's expectations as well, but that thread was absurdly hostile and sanctions feel appropriate. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 07:48, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Robert McClenon

This was bound to end up either at WP:ANI or here, and it can be better managed by the admins here. User:Zujine filed a request for dispute resolution at DRN on 15 November. User:Bloodofox opened a thread at the Fringe Theories Noticeboard several hours earlier on 15 November. I declined the DRN request because it was pending in another forum. The discussion, if it can be called discussion, at FTN is now more than 9200 words. See Misplaced Pages:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Disputes_at_Falun_Gong. I haven't tried counting how many words have been provided by each participant. (If the DRN filing had preceded the FTN filing, I would hope that I would have collapsed most of the 9200 words. I am sort of glad that the FTN filing came first, so that I didn't have to moderate and clerk that interchange.) I think that either somebody needs to be topic-banned, or an interaction ban is needed, or both, but I haven't studied the FTN verbal dumps. Too much is too much. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:18, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Binksternet

Boomerang is appropriate here, as described by MrOllie. Generally, at the Falun Gong–related articles, we have three types of editors: Falun Gong adherents, Falun Gong haters, and neutral folk trying to build and protect the encyclopedia. HollerithPunchCard is type 1, as established by the first few registered edits. Bloodofox is solidly in the third category, with 18 years of editing in widely ranging topics. The adherents spend a lot of energy questioning the validity of sources and contributors, trying to prove that the neutrals are haters and thereby diminish them. The neutral Wikipedians spend energy trying to show the adherents have been spinning the topic in their favor. This latest round is more empty air from HollerithPunchCard—another attempt to prove bias against someone who is neutral. Binksternet (talk) 15:34, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Zujine

Bloodofox’s edits and this this conversation are more than a content dispute, and the Freedom House reporting is a side issue.

First, Freedom House is only one of the many sources Bloodofox removed from the lede. On 11/15/2023, Bloodofox reverted another editor’s restoration of the 3 paragraphs removed from the lede. In this version that Bloodofox reverted Diff, every reference of the Freedom House report was accompanied by additional academic sources. Second, Freedom House is a widely respected NGO, and the attempts to discredit them by editors in this dispute is quite telling. This aspect is a minor dispute and can be handled in other fora.

This arbitration is about an editor deciding the truth of a contentious topic for him/her/theirself and then forcing that view onto the page and attacking editors who disagree. Bloodofox made his intention of removing the content from the lede clear on the talk page here :Diff - We're not here to produce Falun Gong-approved versions of this article. And that's why we're not sweeping everything aside to smokescreen the group's operations by emphasizing at every corner how evil the Chinese government is and how very persecuted Falun Gong is.

I'm not trying to produce a Falun Gong-approved version. And as far as I can tell HollerithPunchCard and others have not sought to remove critical content of Falun Gong, the arguments on content seem to be about and . Those are legitimate arguments that have taken place on the talk page. Bloodofox ignored all those comments, did not engage constructively, and escalated this into a battleground. I find the language used by a number of editors in discussing this religious minority group to be unsettling and bigoted, but those views don't violate the policies of the encyclopedia and I do not wish to regulate the tone and vocabulary of others. The aggressive editing and smearing of other editors does however violate a number of policies, which I think are outlined fairly well in this action. This is the kind of thing that has made me walk away from Misplaced Pages in the past. I've created a lot of pages on the encyclopedia and dedicated years of my life to working on topics that I think are valuable. Dealing with this open aggression towards a vulnerable group that suffers well documented persecution just takes the wind out of my sails.—Zujine|talk 17:27, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Sennalen

As always there are disagreements about content, but this is primarily about Bloodofox's unwillingness to acknowledge that good-faith objections to their edits are even possible in principle.

• Bloodofox apparently began editing the Falun Gong page in 2020. For all of that time, they have been edit warring to make the political affiliations of the Epoch Times the focus of the article and to remove claims about persecution of Falun Gong in China (for example, ) Recent behavior is not some deviation from an otherwise productive history. It's just this.
• The relationship of Falun Gong with the Epoch Times is a legitimate matter for the article to address, but Bloodofox pursues it a non-neutral manner that is not appropriate to an encyclopedia. For example, their very first attempt was to insert multiparagraph direct quotes of ridicule from opinion columnists.
• Bloodofox's advances the theory that sources are unreliable solely on the basis that they don't disagree with Falun Gong. That is not a content dispute, but a flat out rejection of the fundamental definitions of WP:RS and WP:NPOV.
• Bloodofox reverted to restore text challenged on BLP grounds. To date, they have not acknowledged they understand the problem.
• Bloodofox routinely paints other editors' pleas to respect NPOV or norms of civility as Falun Gong adherents trying to censor him.
• Bloodofox has been of some minor service to the encyclopedia by resisting efforts to scrub the phrase "new religious movement", but there are plenty of other editors ready to maintain that front without Bloodofox's constant provocations. I'm watching the article now, so I'll do it myself. Sennalen (talk) 23:06, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

edit: Within this very proceeding, they continue to try to insinuate that I am some kind of sleeper agent for Tai Chi.

Notifications were WP:APPNOTE. I am at a loss for why anyone would think there is something here to boomerang. On the one hand, an editor has been on a months-long bender of battleground editing and incivility. On the other hand some editors have said this behavior is a problem and would like it to stop. That's the real problem? Describing disruptive behavior is not a personal attack. Should editors not try to work out these issues at all on talk pages - just go zero to AE for any conflict? I would genuinely like to understand the thought process. How is Misplaced Pages supposed to function if this is the new norm?

It was a 31 hour block for saying Bloodofox wants the article to use only sources that are hostile to Falun Gong, regardless of publisher. I took it as an isolated error by a careless admin, and I wouldn't raise a fuss about taking a break for a day — but if arbitrators agree that talking about Bloodofox's approach to reliable sourcing policy constitutes personal attacks, I am genuinely asking for clarification, because nothing makes sense anymore. Sennalen (talk) 14:39, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Thomas Meng

I objected to Bloodofox's massive changes to the FG lead. It fails WP:LEAD, as the lead should "summarize the most important points covered in an article", not just one section of it. It fails WP:WEIGHT, as most academic research on Falun Gong is centered around its main body of adherents—those in China (7-20 million, according to Freedom House ), the persecution they experience there, or overseas adherents' activism to end the persecution in China. It fails WP:RECENT, as the current lead has no mention of the history of the movement and focuses only on recent controversies. It fails WP:SOURCETYPES, as scholarly work should outweigh a few passages from media articles, which are not even mainly about FG's teachings and beliefs per se.

I understand politics may affect an editor's personal views on FG. But the main body of FG adherents are in China. They have nothing to do with U.S. politics, and are still experiencing systematic persecution, forced labour, torture, and killing.

Despite raising WP:SOURCETYPES citing several academic sources' description of FG , all I received from Bloodofox is personal attacks such as accusing that I'm an adherent who haunts the FG page , or taunts such as You are wasting your time attempting to whitewash this page. Dig up all the old books that paint a flattering portrait of Li Hongzhi all you want, that ship has sailed.

Bloodofox has yet to provide any evidence that FG's core teachings and beliefs changed, or that major academic books published in 2008 (Falun Gong and the Future of China, Oxford Univ. Press) and 2012 (The Religion of Falun Gong, Univ of Chicago Press) have been outdated. In fact, old or new has never been the true issue. As I brought up scholarly works published in 2018 and 2020, he dismissed them by saying that they echo Falun Gong's self-descriptions" . If a scholarly work doesn't describe what is the main text of that religion, is the work still about that religion?

I haven't seen the lead of any other religion that doesn't talk about its history and basic theology, or the lead of any persecuted minority (religious or ethnic) that doesn't talk about the human rights abuses that they experienced. (Update: Bloodofox just added a paragraph about the persecution, trivializing it into mere "discrimination in employment, housing, and business opportunities". I have added my response here)

The current lead not only misrepresents Falun Gong, it reflects poorly on the encyclopedia itself. Thomas Meng (talk) 15:52, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Contrary to what Bloodofox claimed, I never identified myself as an FG adherent. Thomas Meng (talk) 14:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Statement by fiveby

In response to some of the above, bloodofox is clearly wrong on the content side of things, but so what. There's now a few noticeboard discussions with long unproductive comment threads, a worsening atmosphere, all fighting of a few lines of introductory text. The solutions seems simple, take away everyone's toys by deleting the lead section. fiveby(zero) 17:13, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish

I've been in an editing dispute with bloodofox in the past, so I'll pop in here as this report is titled after them. I think that along with whatever sanctions are decided a firm reminder to all of those involved to stop commenting on each other all the damn time is necessary. Calling people you disagree with "adherents" is no good, same as the examples provided by MrOllie are no good. If everyone avoided personalizing the disputes and followed WP:DR this whole thing would be much less adversarial. Canvassing, including non-neutral noticeboard posts, is no good. All of that needs to stop too.

When I take a look at an unfolding dispute like this, stepping in to address it is much more difficult when there is bad behavior from all sides. It's a contentious topic, so all editors should be following best practices. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:54, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

And that's the immediate personalization of disputes I'm talking about. I've had Falun Gong on my watchlist for over two years, since the first edit request I declined there, and my editing history at Epoch Times shows I've had my eyes on this topic for some time. My recent activity was brought about by the FTN thread, and I'm not seeking any sanctions against bloodofox, just a general reminder about exactly that type of editing. That they immediately made an accusation about a content dispute 18 months ago, when I also didn't support any sanctions when it escalated to ANI, is baffling.

Any time there's a focus on editors over content it leads to reams of text that makes no headway on consensus, and makes sure the editors involved are hardened against any compromise with each other. That should be addressed. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:31, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:42, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Result concerning Bloodofox

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I'm looking at only two possible results here, which are "this is a content dispute" or a WP:BOOMERANG for the filer. I am particularly looking at the comments by MrOllie and Binksternet, and looking through the diffs. The OP says "sanctions are in order". I agree, although not in the way they may be seeking. Black Kite (talk) 19:34, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
• What Black Kite said, and I am leaning towards the latter. Drmies (talk) 02:22, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
• What Drmies (and Black Kite) said. Some of the users whom the OP canvassed may require sanctions, as well, or at the very least logged warnings. El_C 03:36, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

• Sennalen, one would think that after a 3-month 31 hours block for personal attacks against Bloodofox, you'd tread more carefully. A WP:TBAN seems increasingly due for you, too. RE: new norm, which this isn't — Bloodfox is the subject of this complaint, they're not the filer. Also, please ensure you sign + timestamp all your comments here. El_C 07:07, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

• Sennalen, indeed it was 31 hours not 3 months. Looks like I conflated you with another user. Sorry about that. Struck and amended. El_C 01:45, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

FUNSTON3

Anubhavklal

Johnpacklambert

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Johnpacklambert

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

LaundryPizza03 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 01:12, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Johnpacklambert (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct_in_deletion-related_editing#Johnpacklambert_topic_banned

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 06:37, 22 November 2023 They did not directly participate in an XfD, but it appears to be a response to a comment I made at Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_November_22#Category:Tongan_people_by_occupation_and_century (original diff). They contested a statement I made about Tonga.
2. 07:08, 22 November 2023 A follow-up response to the same comment, in which they argue about statements I made about Togo and Senegal. At this point, they veer into a longer discussion about WP:EGRS categories sorted by century, such as Category:20th-century African-American women singers.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

1. 07:22–07:53, 22 November 2023 Not a topic ban violation at this point, but it completes the discussion outlined above. They go into a deep discussion about biographical articles with a large number of categories, such as Kandi Burruss and Winston Churchill.
2. 03:48, 25 July 2021 There were no sanctions imposed in this ANI, but Johnpacklambert was warned about their conduct regarding emptying of categories during CfDs.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

• 01:07, 23 November 2023

Discussion concerning Johnpacklambert

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Johnpacklambert

I do not think this is at all a reasonable complaint. The topic ban imposed was on participation in relation to article deletion. The sanction was spread to other discussion forums but the participation rules all applied to discussions regarding article deletion. I have in multiple cases over the last few weeks made comments to multiple other editors about various categories. No one has objected. I am sorry if I violated a section, but as written the sanction is all related to article deletion. That is not at all the subject of these discussions. I will delete them because they are clearly unwanted. However I do not believe it makes sense to treat them as a violation of a rule imposed against behavior connected to the deletion of articles, which none of thos has any connection to.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:32, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

No one had told me in any place that references to discussions anput Category alignment were grounds for any type of sanction. Category alignment is not something I am banned for contributing to, and I regularly make comments on my talk page about Category alignment. If it becomes something that I cannot talk about in those cases where there is an active CfD discussion, this should be clearly and unambiguously states. When this sanction was i.posed I was literally attacked for seeking any clarification on the scope of the sanction. Thos sanction was imposed only based on AfD behavior. It's gaining a life of its own and spreading to general discussions in this way is very unreasonable. All the more so because the issue I was discussing was when we should consider the start of Tonga, Togo and Senegal to be. This is the first time there has been any suggestion that any action I was doing was not acceptable with relation to CfD, in large part because the initial sanction was all focused on AfD, and was not even explit in what else it covered. All the discussion that created the sanction had to do with AfD matters. If it is in the scope of this ban that I cannot discuss with other editors any points related to current CfD matter, that should be said clearly and up front, and I should not be punished for doing so until this rule has been made clear, which it has not been to this point.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:51, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

• • • The initial ban is for "deletion discussions broadly construed", those words are doing super huge amounts of lifting to cover a discussion about the general scope of categories. To combined that super huge lifting with an assumption that it is clear what violtes the braidly construed, and to then punish with an editing ban someone who has just been even notified that a discussion on a point of meaning that does not even have a direct impact on the outcome of a discussion but is being used to speak more broadly about the scope of nationality, is just bad form. There was no warnimg given, no notice or anything. John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:59, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
• I will avoid repeating this sort of discussion in the future. However to punish me first without having ever even clearly defined what is not allowed is not a reasonable action. There have been no reported incidents in well over a year. I think it is much more reasonable to create clear expectations before imposing sanctions.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:52, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

  For what it is worth, I have removed my comments on the tal page. John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:52, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

• I believe my main point was too provide useful information. Country navigation boxes often give what appears to be a formation or creation date. Because of the complexities of history, there are only a handful of countries where we can pick 1 date and classify those since as nationals of the country, and those before as not. The way country info boxes are formed, that is a possible take away from that date, but in most cases that is a too narrow reading. This is a general issue with Category meaning, but has no impact at all on any current category discussion at least not any related to the 3 countries for whom I gave a broader scope of their history explanation. I see I should have avoided the grey area, and grwatly apologize having caused this problem.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:02, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
• The first notice I had of any concern with these statements was the opening of this discussion. There was no previous statement on comment on then, or any expression of corcern.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:30, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Statement by User:Smasongarrison

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to participate/comment. But I've been interacting with John Pack Lambert quite a lot in the past few months. (And as a consequence have stared at his talk page A LOT, before he started archiving it.) He uses the talk page to log his thoughts and ideas about categorization. I don't view this as him being disruptive or directly participating in the discussion. I think of it more as that's his way that he's processing his ideas. It's definitely different from how most people use wikipedia talk pages, but it is pretty typical for John Pack Lambert. I encourage you to look through his archive for the numerous examples of this . I don't think we should penalize him for watching and learning from the categories for deletion discussion. Mason (talk) 06:02, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Clarification: I now understand that this report is in regards to commenting on another user's talk page. Not his own. I still think my comment stands. I've recieved similar posts like the one in question that I treated as attempts to impart information rather than engage in the discussion at hand. Mason (talk) 19:11, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Statement by User:Marcocapelle

I was referred to this page by Johnpacklambert who regularly posts on my talk page. Sometimes I find his comments on my talk page useful, in which case I undertake action on my own behalf, sometimes I find it less useful or less priority and I do nothing with it. His comments are always constructive in any case, and a good example of attempt to collaborate to build a better encyclopedia. Please continue doing so. In my honest opinion, the diffs above fall in the same category of constructive comments. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:11, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Statement by jc37

Reading where this is so far, I think this will likely be closed as "no action". Which probably isn't a bad way to go for this.

I do have a concern though that I think worth noting, just to try to proactively get in front of this so that the edior doesn't go further along these lines and end up back here with something more concerning.

Of late, the editor has been leaving posts on user talk pages, at WT:CAT, and other category-related pages. This shouldn't be an issue, as already noted. However the text (and seeming intent) of many of the posts have been along the lines of: should we do away with, or stop categorizing X; or should X be renamed to Y follwing Z standard.

Those are essentially CFD (or, charitably, "pre-CFD") questions. And can have the "appearance" like they are doing an end-run around their restriction, or even attempting to solicit meat pupppetry.

To be clear, I don't think this is their conscious intent. But at the same time, part of the reason for their restriction is that they haven't the best judge of such things for themself.

So I thought it worth noting that this is going on. I'm not linking to anything intentionally, as, as noted, this seems minor, and I don't see a need yet to go all-in on this. But, as noted, WT:CAT (and its archives) has some examples. And I think the talk pages of some of those above do (or did) as well (including mine).

So anyway, I hope that this helps, and is taken merely as a suggested caution to the editor that they may be starting to be "colouring outside the lines" as it were. They've seen so much of DR, I'd like to see if we can help prevent them needing to see more in the future. - jc37 03:25, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Johnpacklambert

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Not mentioning the discussion, but clearly referring to it is a violation. I'm thinking three months, standard progression up from the last block. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:19, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

  The restriction is deletion discussions, which merge discussions fall under, broadly construed and I still see this as a violation. As my view is clearly not the consensus view, however, I'll recalibrate my views and defer to my colleagues. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:07, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• 3 months feels harsh - I'm inclined to be lenient here, since the restriction is on "participating in deletion discussions", not necessarily talking about deletion or category policy anywhere on Misplaced Pages (broadly construed does have its limits). Certainly I didn't immediately see a violation in my initial reading of the diffs themselves, but since it does seem like he is replying to LaundryPizza03's CfD comment, that's circumvention of the restriction. But I can also see how that comment could be seen as a good faith correction rather than any attempt to participate or reply in the discussion. Galobtter (talk) 04:08, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah, I think this can be closed as no action. Galobtter (talk) 20:20, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• This is a good-faith report, but I don't see any violation here, much less an intentional one. The cited edits seem to contain useful and relevant information, and categorization is not the same as deletion. Johnpacklambert has not returned to his prior problematic behaviors with these edits. I would close with no action and certainly with no block. Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:17, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
• It looks like this report relies on "broadly construed" in the ban against "participating in deletion discussions, broadly construed". To me, that might be justified if there were evidence showing an Arbcom statement to the effect that the kind of comments reported were covered by the sanction. I don't see such a statement and I don't even see if LaundryPizza03 has made it clear to Johnpacklambert that the latter's comments were unwelcome and a possible violation. As this stands, I don't see a reason for a sanction. Johnuniq (talk) 08:27, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
• This stretches "broadly construed" too broadly for me. The CfD discussion was a merge discussion, not a deletion discussion, and Johnpacklambert did not in any case participate directly in it, nor encourage any particular result (directly or indirectly). As far as I can tell, it's just a comment about the same subject a CfD happened to be underway on, and I'm not willing to stretch the restriction that far. I would say that direct participation at any XfD venue, even on proposals to merge, would be a very poor choice for this editor, but this is too far removed from that to be sanctionable in my view. Unless any uninvolved admin objects within the next day or so, I will close this with no action. Seraphimblade 00:46, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

  A category merge results in categories being deleted, so I think direct participation is 100% banned (not that I object to that close). Galobtter (talk) 01:16, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Irtapil

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Irtapil

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Orgullomoore (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 02:41, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Irtapil (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_4#ARBPIA_General_Sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. This edit (2023-10-23) removed the perpetrator / accused fields from the infobox after a community discussion reached the consensus that, because the identity of the accused / perpetrator of the explosion was controversial, it was best to leave explanation to the body of the article and omit these fields from the infobox.
2. In this edit (2023-11-22 22:12), Irtapil added them.
3. In this edit (2023-11-22 23:42), Orgullomoore reverted the re-addition of them.
4. In this edit (2023-11-23 00:07), Irtapil re-added these fields, thus violating 1RR.
5. In this edit, Orgullomoore requested that Irtapil self-revert.
6. These edits succeed Orgullomoore's invitation to self-revert, suggesting the invitation to self-revert was read but unheeded: (2023-11-23 00:50) (2023-11-23 01:20) (2023-11-23 01:23) (2023-11-23 01:36)

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

1. This discussion illustrates awareness of the sanctions.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Amending to add diff within less than a month of which Irtapil's edits constitute reversal: --Orgullomoore (talk) 02:53, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

If there is a rule that so long as the action being reversed is greater than 2 weeks in the past, it does not count as a revert, then please clarify as much. It will change things because any person who wants to disrupt the stable version will have the upper hand. The new state of affairs will be: (1) stable version (more than two weeks ago); (2) introduction of new change (does not count as a revert); (3) revert back to stable version (counts against 1RR); and (4) re-revert to new unstable version (counts as first revert in last 2 weeks). Hence, the introducer of the unstable change has the upper hand. Also, amending to show that Irtapil was aware of the consensus within a week of jamming in the change: --Orgullomoore (talk) 04:36, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

It's clear Irtapil does not know what a revert is, and still has not self-reverted. --Orgullomoore (talk) 15:04, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Just adding a note here that I reverted Irtapil's edit per their request; see here. I honestly don't think Irtapil intentionally violated the 1RR. It appears they still don't know what's going on, which is problematic in itself. I'm not gunning for punishment. Whatever admins think is best. Obviously they need to take the time to read the rules that apply to all of us. --Orgullomoore (talk) 05:14, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

No objection from me regarding Iskandar323's suggestion at 06:10, 24 November 2023. --Orgullomoore (talk) 06:18, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Although, I couldn't help but notice that they got into it with DeCausa about the technicalities of the 3RR at User_talk:Irtapil#May_2021. --Orgullomoore (talk) 02:17, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Irtapil

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Irtapil

• a month? isn't the rule 24 hours? and i haven't recited anything at all in that page. Irtapil (talk) 11:14, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Why is this jumping straight to an arbitration committee instead of the talk page for the article? I was reading the talk page while editing, mugging was raised there. Irtapil (talk) 11:44, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

• I haven't done any actual reverts on the "Al-Ahli hospital explosion" page, no edits I have made to that page were intentionally identical to a previous version.
• Your definition of a "revert" seems to refer to my edit resembling a version of the wiki article from a month ago, 5 days after the explosion occurred? It has now been an extra month since the explosion, so a consensus reached 5 days after is no longer applicable.
• Even by that very stretched definition, I made one "revert" today. I re-added the word "disputed" once. In addition to it being now 35 days instead of 5 days since the explosion, I also added "accused" details, which gives a different impression to having "disputed" there by itself.
• i.e. I saw someone had raised a concern in the talk page and I attempted to address it in a new way that didn't match a previously ruled-out version.
• The recent non-archived discussion only mentioned "perpetrator". I only even found the "accused" field existed by reading the instructions page for {{infobox event}}.
• I made a two or three different versions of possible options to the "accused" section, only the first re-added "disputed".
• The edits I made were intentionally different to each other, so i would not have expected them to count as a "revert" even if someone undid them in between. (Sorry I didn't check if anybody did that, I thought possibly one of my edits just hadn't saved properly, I'll double check the page history next time that happens to avoid future disputes).
• I only intended to edit my own pervious edits. I made multiple edits to show in the discussion, but after that I just copy pasted the options instead rather than linking the edits, it seemed simpler.
• I raised a discussion about the edits on the talk page as i finished the last version.
• Even if someone was trying to revert it as I was working on it, I was told by someone else (just a few days ago on my talk page, after I reverted one of thru edits) that for articles about recent events a new version should be left in place while discussed, rather than the "revert by default" rule for articles that are more static or historic?
• Irtapil (talk) 13:51, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Iskandar323

Irtapil is new to the CT topic area and does not appear to have encountered the tricky rigors of WP:1RR previously. I think a lot of what's going on here can be chalked up to confusion over the exacting "in whole or in part", ya-da ya-da language in this rule and the broader WP:3RR import on reversion. It is not evident that Irtapil has done anything in bad faith, but is simply afflicted by an unfamiliarity with the exacting extent of the rules here, and I would personally suggest that this be closed simply with an instruction for the editor to read over the restrictions very, very carefully, and to make sure they understand that it is far better to stay well on the safe side of these restrictions than to risk ending up here time and time again. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:10, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Red-tailed hawk

I'm failing to understand the confusion of patrolling administrators regarding what constitutes a revert. Our policy is explicit that he term "revert" is defined as any edit (or administrative action) that reverses or undoes the actions of other editors, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material, and whether performed using undo, rollback, or done so completely manually.

There isn't a time component here for the purposes of a revert; people can slow-motion edit war over the course of months, and they can still be reverting each other each time. There are also plenty of non-gnoming tasks that are obviously not reverts—for example, adding new material or a new section that had never previously been in the article—the key being that a non-reverting edit isn't restoring an article (or a part of an article) to be the same as it was in a prior revision.

As for 1RR—if it's being correctly pointed out to you that Edit A was a revert, someone else undid edit A, and then you re-instated the changes you made in Edit A, that's two reverts. Ignoring a very clear request to self-revert one's second revert pending discussion indicates either lack of understanding or a lack of willingness to heed that request. The differences between the first re-insertion of the accused paramater and the second re-insertion are minor—the only difference in rendering is that "Israeli Air Force" is swapped for "Israeli Defense Forces"—so we'd need the respondent to understand why this is a revert. The respondent says above that The edits I made were intentionally different to each other, so i would not have expected them to count as a "revert" even if someone undid them in between, but at face value this is a deficient understanding of what a revert is. I think the respondent is being earnest in their replies here, and that leads me to conclude that this is disruption is being caused by a greener understanding of what a revert is rather than any sort of malice or intent to be forcing with quantity of edits to ensure that the article looks the way they want.

The point of issuing a sanction is to prevent future disruption, not to punish. If the patrolling admins think that the respondent now understands the general principles of 1RR, knows that reverts do not literally have to be the same exact entire edit for them to be reverts, and commits to being willing to listen to 1RR-related self-revert requests in the future, then it's a good idea to let this go with a reminder or informal sort of guidance about what is a revert. If administrators are not satisfied by this, then I'd have some concerns about the editor's participation in the topic area going forward, since we may well be likely to wind up here again unless the underlying working knowledge of 1RR/reverts is addressed.

— Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 18:38, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Irtapil

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• A month after an edit is a pretty long time to count as the first revert. I don't see this as an actionable 1rr violation. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 02:47, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

  That's still over two weeks, which is still a pretty long time to call something a revert. There's no set time, but ehhh... I'd like to see some more admin input. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 03:03, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

  Irtapil, please only comment on your own section. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:47, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

  On the other hand they participated in Talk:Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion#Perpetrator before making the initial edit, which means they clearly knew that the perpetrator information had at one point been in the article and thus knew they were reverting someone. I'd say this is actionable. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 05:48, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

  Irtapil, again, comment only in your section. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:55, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

• I confess to being as confused as anyone regarding revert but my recollection is that just about any non-gnome edit is a revert. The regulars in this area could explain with links to clarifications but I don't see a need to explore the details at the moment. I looked at User talk:Irtapil#Request to Self-Revert because the significant point is how Irtapil reacted to the request. It appears from that discussion that Irtapil was trying to cooperate and expressed concern that self-reverting might be counted as a revert (no—a self-revert negates the original revert). Unless there is something I'm missing, I would close this as no action with an informal warning that unless someone is very well informed and self-confident, they should immediately self-revert when asked by an editor in good standing and ask questions later. Johnuniq (talk) 09:27, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
• Red-tailed hawk the issue generally with the definition of a revert is - technically every edit that removes any text could be considered a revert, since every piece of text by definition had to have been added by another editor. In general, though, removing long-standing text is not considered a revert - the question here is how long does the text have to remain before it is considered a revert or not. Galobtter (talk) 02:38, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

  Even rewording text could be considered to be technically a revert, even if only one word that existed in the page was removed. Galobtter (talk) 02:42, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

  I looked into this specific case and agree with Johnuniq about no action being needed and the informal warning. Whether there is actually a violation here is pretty arguable and I don't see any reason for action in any case. Galobtter (talk) 21:01, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

• I have never been a fan of the highly expansive definition of "revert", in that using it, even completely different edits to completely different parts of the article in a day, and even if unchallenged, could in a technical sense violate an "xRR" restriction (and "0RR" would essentially prevent one from doing anything at all, except maybe fixing typos or the like). That is, at least on its face, absurd, and clearly not the goal revert restrictions are intended to achieve, which is to discourage edit warring. To be considered a "revert", I think we need either that the edit directly reverses a recent edit, or that it clearly is intended to reverse an older one (especially if the editor in question has reversed the same one before). Seraphimblade 07:51, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Drsmoo

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Drsmoo

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:01, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Drsmoo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel_articles#ARBPIA_General_Sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 19:49, 26 November 2023 source distortion
2. 19:56, 26 November 2023 source distortion
3. 02:00, 25 November 2023 source distortion
4. 01:59, 25 November 2023 source distortion

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

N/A

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

• Participated in process about the area of conflict (such as a request or appeal at AE, AN or an Arbitration Committee process page), on here.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Drsmoo has repeatedly misrepresented the cited sources in these edits. He has repeatedly claimed that material specifically about a propaganda campaign supports a "media campaign" or "a public-relations campaign". None of the cited sources, including the SYNTH he has added (though that is content not conduct), discuss a "media campaign" or a public-relations campaign. It has been well-established on this board that distorting sources is a behavioral issue, not a content one. In [[this edit he takes a section that The Intercept and The Nation discussing a propaganda campaign and claim they support that Israel has run a "public-relations campaign". This is straightforward source distortion and it should be met with a topic ban.

None of the sources brought by Drsmoo discuss any media campaign, and I retained all that information moving them higher in the article where they were actually used in a non synth manner. It was and is a straightforward attempt at watering down what the sources say with irrelevant material that doesn’t even support what he added. And it does not address the repeated misrepresentation of the sources that are cited. nableezy - 01:33, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes I brought a source about something another source described as one of the pieces of propaganda. I added material directly related to that subject by virtue of the Nation source describing it as propaganda. That isn’t the same as adding material that no source describes as part of any media campaign. But again, that’s the synth part of this and that’s a content issue. My issue here is the repeated distortion of the sources making it appear so as they support what they do not. nableezy - 02:41, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, they are the same edit, multiple times on multiple pages. Yes, attributing is totally fine, the problem remains having sources discussing one thing, a proaganda campaign, and using them to say they support another thing, that Israel has engaged in a public relations campaign. Those are not the same topic, and using the former to claim they support the latter is distortion. nableezy - 04:02, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified

Discussion concerning Drsmoo

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Drsmoo

I have edited alongside Nableezy for a long time, and am surprised by this complaint. The section was entirely dedicated to negatively portraying Israel's media campaign, and was titled "Israeli Propaganda Campaign". The section was constructed using sources that (almost) exclusively are described as biased or partisan on WP:RS. Edit: To clarify, I'm referring specifically to the sources that use the term "propaganda". It seems intuitive that if a source is notably biased/partisan and requires attribution, its verbiage should not be in wikivoice, let alone as a subject title in ARBPIA for an ongoing current event. I balanced the section by adding several highly reliable and uncontroversial sources (Haaretz, The Daily Telegraph, and France24) that describe some of Israel's media reports as accurate, and renamed the section to the neutral "Israeli Media Campaign". The Haaretz source presented a "Visual analysis" of "Videos taken by Israeli army spokesperson and journalists who toured the tunnels underneath Gaza's Al-Shifa Hospital". The Telegraph source analyzed "a tranche of footage released by the IDF", the France24 source analyzed "Do images published by Israeli army show a Hamas tunnel?"' All three are analyses of, and directly relevant to, the products of Israel's media campaign. I am flabbergasted that Nableezy brought this, let alone asking for a topic ban. Drsmoo (talk) 01:38, 27 November 2023 (UTC) Edited at Drsmoo (talk) 02:35, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I'll also add, what should be self-evident, that using the subject title "Media Campaign" with a source that uses the word "propaganda" is not distortion. A propaganda campaign of this type would simply be a type of Media Campaign Drsmoo (talk) 01:51, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

"In

"None of the sources brought by Drsmoo discuss any media campaign" - We both brought the same France24 source. You brought an example of them finding the nurse video fake here. I brought an example of them finding the tunnel video real here, neither use the term "propaganda" and both are analyses of products from the exact same campaign. Drsmoo (talk) 02:35, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Nableezy, a "propaganda campaign" conducted in the media is a "media campaign". The two are not a contradiction in terms. For example: A discussion of a Russian state-run social media campaign that describes it as propaganda. Another example using "Media Campaign" and propaganda, another example. I don't see what your complaint is? A "propaganda campaign" is just a pejorative term. We can accurately call it a media campaign and attribute usage of the term "propaganda" to the sources that use it without making the section non-neutral. Drsmoo (talk) 03:06, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

"the problem remains having sources discussing one thing, a proaganda campaign, and using them to say they support another thing, that Israel has engaged in a public relations campaign. Those are not the same topic" - They are the same topic, the former is just a pejorative of the latter. In fact, if you want to get historical, the term "public relations" is just a rebranding of the term "propaganda" after the latter acquired a negative connotation.

"and using the former to claim they support the latter is distortion." - But that's not happening because the use of the term "propaganda" is attributed to the sources. Drsmoo (talk) 04:40, 27 November 2023 (UTC)