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POV

POV-tagged. Carl Savich writes on a very pro-Serbian bias. The reference (External links) is Serb ultra nationalistic sites.

Article written by Carl Savich is not main source for this Wkkipedia article - in fact, it was not used at all as a source. It is listed in the external links only for further reading because there are useful information there like pictures of the victims. PANONIAN (talk) 23:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Tag

You taged this article as "unsourced and POV", so, you should see that I listed my sources:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/The_crimes_of_the_occupants_in_Vojvodina%2C_1941-1944#Notes
• http://en.wikipedia.org/The_crimes_of_the_occupants_in_Vojvodina%2C_1941-1944#External_links

And the second thing: why you consider it POV? It is from official state sources dealing with Axis war crimes in Vojvodina. PANONIAN (talk) 20:33, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

PANONIAN, thanks for your entry on Misplaced Pages. The reference notes you enclosed are connected to three specific statements in your article, but other sections remain unsourced. As for the "official state sources" you mention here, the article mentions none. Also, please provide a translation for the titles in your references! Thanks and keep up the good work. Nehwyn 20:43, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

The entire article is based on the 3 references that I quoted, so if you suggest that should mention source in every section of the article, no problem for it. Also, the data found in the source that I quoted came from the Yugoslav state commision that investigated war crimes of the Axis troops on the territory of Vojvodina during the war. I do not see what is POV here. And regarding translation for my references, I do not see a point of it if these books itself are not translated in English. The titles are: "Number of inhabitants of Vojvodina", "Raid in southern Bačka in 1942" and "Encyclopaedia of Novi Sad", all 3 dealing with WW2 events. PANONIAN (talk) 21:16, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

And by the way, you mainly addressed the question about sources, but what exactly you consider POV here? If something is POV, we should correct it. PANONIAN (talk) 21:19, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

The article fails to mention one important detail: the perpetrators of the Újvidék atrocities (Feketehalmy-Czeydner, Grassy) were tried and convicted shortly afterwards by a Hungarian military court. This, however, would change the generalizing picture about brutal and cruel Hungarians. Árpád 07:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Article speak about brutal and cruel fascists, no matter of their ethnic origin and, by the way, the trial to those persons was false, they were not punished after this trial. PANONIAN (talk) 12:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Wrong information, they were tried and convicted but escaped to Germany to evade punishment. On the other hand, after the war, the Yugoslav People's Court executed several innocent men like the Chief of Staff Szombathelyi (who had nothing to do with the massacres) or the Mayor of Újvidék Miklós Nagy or the Serbian Popovic whose only crime was that he was a member of the Hungarian parliament (strange fascist oppression to have Serbian representatives in our parliament, don't you think?) Another important detail is that the massacres (yes, I am calling them massacres, just as the mass murders committed by Titoist partisans) were promted by clandestine violent actions against the local population (burning of crops, brutal killing of soldiers). Furthermore, Hungary's reannexation of the Délvidék cannot be legally considered as an occupation of Yugoslavia since it only happened after Croatia declared its independence and Yugoslavia de jure ceased to exist. (Hungarian politicians were highly aware of this and they only commenced the reoccupation (or liberation, maybe semantics) of the Délvidék by the time Yugoslavia had dissolved itself. Moreover, the raid had a preventive nature as well because Yugoslav partisans (Chetniks and Communists together) had planned a major massacre of the Hungarian and German population of Délvidék for January 9, 1942 (date of the Serbian Christmas) which was also prevented by Hungarian military action. Árpád 21:10, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

As I said, the trial was false: it was organized only for eyes of the World (to mask the true nature of Hungarian fascist "state") and state simply allowed to those "convicted" persons to escape. Same thing with that Serb member of Hungarian parliament (he was not legal representative of the Serb people, but puppet of the Hungarian government, which placed him there only to hide true character of the fascist "state"). Regarding legality of Hungarian fascist occupation, Yugoslavia never de jure ceased to exist as a state. After Axis Powers occupied Yugoslavia the only legal government of the whole that area recognized by the international community was a Yugoslav government in exile. All other regimes and troops that existed on the Yugoslav soil during the war (including "Independent State of Croatia") were there illegally. Also, partisans (there were no chetniks in Vojvodina) never planed massacre of Hungarian and German populations - that was only fascists propaganda and we know very well who commited massacre against whom in 1942, so please refrain from such ridiculous claims. PANONIAN (talk) 14:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Vince...

Claim that raid was performed by "some disloyal Hungarian officers" is complete lie that was proved wrong by the historians. It was proved that Horthy himself was aware that raid will happen, i.e. the order for that came from the highest place. Also, their trial was false and was performed with exact purpose to hide a role of the state in those events. So, Vince, please do not use false statements that were used as part of fascist World War II propaganda in Hungary. PANONIAN (talk) 11:44, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Source? But no books please, especially not without a page number. WP:CITE, WP:Verify. Online. Funny thing calling "lie" a memoir, critically commented by a well known historian. Wrong historians? I'm intrested in your ideology. If you can prove it, than it can be reverted, untill that time, removing of cited facts will be considered as vandalism. --Vince 11:51, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I call it lie - do you uderstand that you used as a source a memoirs of Miklos Horthy??? It would be same if you used memoirs of Adolpf Hitler who claim there that he is not responsible for killed Jews. I really do not understand how some people even today can have Hitler or Horthy as their idols. Regarding page numbers, I added them, no matter that it is stupid to add page number of the book that entirely speak about 1942 raid. PANONIAN (talk) 13:06, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Zvonimir Golubović???? LOL!!! That's everithying, but objective. Don't joke. Criticizm of the book. for you, the sources on the lower part is more than enough. --Vince 14:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)