Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:24, 2 December 2023

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Battle of Donbas (2022) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 30 days

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the Balkans or Eastern Europe, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination. Discussions: Not moved, 23 February 2023, to War in Donbas (2022–present), see discussion. Not moved, 27 March 2023, to Donbas campaign, see discussion. Not moved/withdrawn, 29 July 2023, from Battle of Donbas (2022–present) to Battle of Donbas, see discussion. Moved, 31 August 2023, from Battle of Donbas (2022–present) to Battle of Donbas (2022), see discussion.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. International relations This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. Military history: European / Russian & Soviet / Post-Cold War This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status: Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met Associated task forces: /  European military history task force Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force Post-Cold War task force Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Russia: Military / Politics and law Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Misplaced Pages. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Russian, Soviet, and CIS military history task force. This article is supported by the politics and law of Russia task force. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Ukraine High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ukraine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ukraine on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.UkraineWikipedia:WikiProject UkraineTemplate:WikiProject UkraineUkraine High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article was edited to contain a total or partial translation of Битва за Донбас (2022) from the Ukrainian Misplaced Pages. Consult the history of the original page to see a list of its authors.

Post-move cleanup

I've already merged most of the out-of-scope material to Eastern Ukraine campaign, but there's still some stuff that needs to be done. The stats in "Casualties" include stuff after September, for instance, which I've marked. It would also be really good to have some sort of conclusion or "Aftermath" section to wrap the article up, rather than it just ending abruptly at the end of August like it does now. HappyWith (talk) 00:01, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Sloviansk offensive into Battle of Donbas (2022)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to merge. If more sources report on the offensive (e.g. the section in the merged article becomes long enough), the article can be recreated. Dan the Animator 22:18, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

(Proposed after discussion at Talk:Sloviansk offensive#Did anything actually happen?)

There isn't much of significance in the Sloviansk offensive article that can't be effectively covered in Battle of Donbas (2022). It mostly consisted of Russia repeatedly bashing infantrymen against Ukrainian fortifications south of Izium over and over until the 2022 Kharkiv counteroffensive - which is covered just fine in other articles. Even though it's been over a year since the events, large amount of the material is also just not independently confirmed, leaving even less notable events in the Sloviansk offensive article. It makes most sense to cover the notable stuff in the Donbas battle article, since it was one of the prongs of that offensive. HappyWith (talk) 22:40, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom and per discussion at the talk page of the article proposed to be merged. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 22:51, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom and discussion at Talk:Sloviansk offensive#Did anything actually happen? Cinderella157 (talk) 01:12, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom and discussion at Talk:Sloviansk offensive#Did anything actually happen? Parham wiki (talk) 09:29, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Support per nom and discussion at Talk:Sloviansk offensive#Did anything actually happen?. Jebiguess (talk) 03:18, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose As ISW and others have discussed, the operation was pretty notable/decisive precisely because the Russians failed, both initially and later on. A successful drive and exploitation could have had very serious consequences. Instead, the Russians ended up having to take a more frontal approach, leading to limited and Pyrrhic gains.

The main Battle of Donbas article has a far larger scope, and any weaknesses in the current article don’t reflect on the topic. In fact, the current revision doesn’t contain a lot of the substantive discussion found in sources, probably because it was only recently moved to its current title.

I would also suggest that the skirmishing around Velyka Komyshuvakha and Husarivka be covered, as well as the Russian mistakes in troop dispositions and force-to-space ratios that set the stage for the Ukrainian counterblow, which is fairly extensively discussed by sources.

Unfortunately I completely missed out on that previous, closed, discussion which others have linked to.

RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 10:55, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

We could divide this campaign into many several subcampaigns. If Russia took Siversk it could have also been bad. Also if they took Avdiivka, or Vuhledar. We can't give articles to every subaxes of this campaign, and I am not convinced the fighting north of Sloviansk was particularly more notable than the others. Plus, A successful drive and exploitation could have had very serious consequences. is speculation. Instead, the Russians ended up having to take a more frontal approach, leading to limited and Pyrrhic gains. can apply for the whole campaign, or for the whole invasion itself. If this article got into a better shape and became longer, we could discuss a split in the future. But currently both the proposed merged article and the proposed target article do not cover the fighting north of Sloviansk in great detail. In my view having everything neatly packed into one article will make expansion easier, at least in this one case. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 12:22, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with this argument - the Sloviansk offensive page could hypothetically be its own thing, but the article as of now doesn’t have enough to stand on its own. We could re-split later if needed; not like there's much there in the Sloviansk offensive page now anyway. HappyWith (talk) 05:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Support per nom and discussion at Talk:Sloviansk offensive#Did anything actually happen?. Also in favor of what User:Super Dromaeosaurus is suggesting, regarding some sort of geographical (rather than purely chronological) division of the information this article, if it can be reasonably implemented. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 05:21, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Is it really over though?

Battles of Donetsk suburbs were merged in, but they had lot of stuff happening AFTER Kharkiv counteroffensive. when you look at some winter offensive battles (like Bakhmut and Vuhledar), it says that they are part of the battle of donbass.

Main offensive probably ended, but they are still fighting for Dobass Slimebor (talk) 07:32, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

This article is about the so-called "second phase" of the war, from the Russian retreat from the north of Ukraine to Ukraine's counteroffensives. Russian advance slowed down after taking Lysychansk and started focusing mainly on the Bakhmut direction. It only started gaining traction after Ukraine's two counteroffensives had ended, accordingly they are defined by some as the "third phase" and the battle for Bakhmut (among others) as the "fourth phase". It makes sense from an organizational and historiographic point of view. Also worth noting that fighting was also taking place in Donbas before the start date here anyway. Perhaps another title could make the article's scope more evident. After the fall of Lysychansk I don't think we could say Russia pulled any offensive aimed at taking the whole of Donbas. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 12:16, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Hastily to supplement

What kind of abbreviated piece of crap is this article? What kind of artificial piquancy is this? Who says the battle for Donbas ended in September 2022? Who are you making crazy? What about the Battle of Soledar and the Battle of Bakhmut? Soledar and Bakhmut are not located in Donbass? This is hard core cretinism that it is unrepeatable to watch, let alone read. I have never seen so many cavities and malicious oversights in my life. There is more neutrality in the current Israel—Hamas War 2023 than a single battle related to the Russia-Ukraine War. I had to write this or I was going to explode with rage. How rude of you to leave out Soledar and Bahmut battles. This is a crime by moderators and admins. My stomach hurt from nervousness. I no longer have the energy to look up anything related to the Russian invasion of Ukraine on the English Misplaced Pages. Trunke has no objectivity and all are ordinary hairstyles of piquantery wrapped in very low-quality wafers. The horror. — Baba Mica (talk) 21:51, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

It was either this or deleting the article. As the "hard core cretin" who initiated the scope-changing discussion myself, I put forward the argument that the idea of the "battle of Donbas" in its former form was largely invented by Misplaced Pages editors and not a concept actually well-defined in sources - and that the only actual defined scope for an article with this title would be the summer 2022 offensive, as referred to by a couple of military analysts. ("Summer 2022 Donbas offensive", or something along those lines, might be a better name for this article in the long run, IMO, but I doubt that could get consensus.)

For events in Donbas after Sep. 2022, see eastern Ukraine campaign. HappyWith (talk) 22:58, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Also, this is a massive insane overreaction to a simple transfer of content from one page to another. HappyWith (talk) 23:11, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Better that this piece of garbage be removed from the article like many of my articles that have been deleted, edited or redirected than to look this disgustingly hollow, illegible and artificially shortened to the point of unbearableness. I literally feel sick. The Sloviansk offensive never existed because the Russian forces could not get closer than 20-30 km to it, but from a bunch of my local articles related to the battles for nearby places, someone simply put everything in one bag and made the Sloviansk offensive article. I understood this as a kind of simplification of the archival material of the fighting after the Russian victory after the Battle of Izium, until the heavy defeat in the Kharkov counter-offensive. Essentially, the Russians never or still did not launch an offensive on Sloviansk not because they did not want to but because they could not because they were stopped at the places of Krasnopillia and Bogorodichnoe and at the city of Seversk. The Donbas offensive was officially announced by Sergei Lavrov on April 19 last year that it had officially begun, which happened the day before with the rapid Russian capture of the city of Kreminna. That is all known. The fact that the Russian side slowed down the advance by no means means that the offensive was stopped in July after the battle of Lysychansk nor after the Ukrainian Kharkov counter-offensive, as evidenced by the Russian offensive operations in the battles for the places of Avdiyivka, Marinka, Soledar, Bakhmut, Bilohorivka and Vuhledar, where the casualties are huge on both sides. This Russian offensive was stopped, but not by the Ukrainian Kharkov counter-offensive in September and October last year, but after the takeover of Bakhmut by members of the Wagner Group and the Ukrainian summer counter-offensive that began on June 4. The result is tied because Russian forces captured the cities of Soledar and Bakhmut this year, but they lost Lyman, Svyatogorsk and Bilohorivka last year, and this year Ukrainian forces recovered many lost settlements around the city of Bakhmut and soon regained some lost positions in the city of Bakhmut itself on its western periphery. The offensive was stopped either on May 20 after the Russian capture of Bakhmut or on June 1 after the retreat of the Wagner group or on June 4 at the beginning of the 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive. There is no fourth, and it was certainly not stopped before May and June of this year. It is so obvious and the article must be updated until that period or better removed and deleted. It looks so amateurishly hollow that it's unbearable to look at, let alone read. A simple pamphlet. — Baba Mica (talk) 06:01, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

This article was always unnecessary duplicated trash. I had advocated for its deletion many times. Finally it was given a proper scope, the Russian offensive that ended after the capture of Lysychansk and Sievierodonetsk. This article extends a bit after that because it still makes sense to group the info here.

The fact that the Russian side slowed down the advance by no means means that the offensive was stopped in July after the battle of Lysychansk they explicitly announced an "operational pause" right after it. nor after the Ukrainian Kharkov counter-offensive we've never seen any regional-scale offensive aimed at taking the whole of Donbas after it, only focused and localised efforts at Bakhmut and Soledar, Avdiivka, Marinka or Lyman, or at small villages in Luhansk Oblast, these not having taken place at the same time being part of one single coordinated effort, rather an intermittent Russian try of their luck in different parts of the front every once in a while. Even smaller in scope articles like Battle of Avdiivka (2022–present) feel like they make little sense because fighting keeps stopping and re-erupting. Effectively the Kharkiv counteroffensive put an end to the strategy of taking the whole of Donbas at once as encircling it was not possible anymore. I believe the shortening of the article's scope was a very good idea. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 14:53, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Request to have status and title changed

I request to the status changed from inconclusive to ongoing. There's no indication that the battle of Donbas is over. There's still fighting ongoing in settlements and cities in the Donbas such Advika, Marinka, near Bakhmut and surrounding areas. It doesn't make any sense that the battle is considered over while both sides are still launching offensive to capture territory in the region. I also request to change the title to "Battle of Donbas (2022-present)", as the battle is still ongoing. LegendaryChristopher (talk) 06:31, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 December 2023

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at Battle of Donbas (2022). (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

I request the status of the battle of Donbas to be changed from inconclusive to ongoing as fighting is still ongoing in the region and no information states otherwise. LegendaryChristopher (talk) 16:24, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

• All unassessed articles
• C-Class International relations articles
• Unknown-importance International relations articles
• WikiProject International relations articles
• C-Class military history articles
• C-Class European military history articles
• European military history task force articles
• C-Class Russian, Soviet and CIS military history articles
• Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force articles
• C-Class Post-Cold War articles
• Post-Cold War task force articles
• C-Class Russia articles
• Mid-importance Russia articles
• Mid-importance C-Class Russia articles
• C-Class Russia (politics and law) articles
• Politics and law of Russia task force articles
• WikiProject Russia articles
• C-Class Ukraine articles
• High-importance Ukraine articles
• WikiProject Ukraine articles
• Pages translated from Ukrainian Misplaced Pages
• Misplaced Pages extended-confirmed-protected edit requests