Talk:Battle of Kherson: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 05:15, 6 December 2023 editGenQuest (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers63,602 edits OneClickArchived "Requested move 24 April 2022" to Talk:Battle of Kherson/Archive 1 ← Previous edit		Revision as of 05:16, 6 December 2023 edit undoGenQuest (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers63,602 edits OneClickArchived "June 24" to Talk:Battle of Kherson/Archive 1 Next edit →
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	== June 24 ==

	There are reports the Ukrainian Army is outside of Kherson City and have begun to enter. ] (]) 13:02, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
	:What are the sources for these reports? ] (]) 17:12, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

	== Theoretical ==		== Theoretical ==

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This article contains a translation of Бої за Херсон from uk.wikipedia.

Theoretical

So I asked this type of question before but couldn't find it, so I'll ask again I guess.

If Ukraine were to recapture the city, would there be a second page like "Second Battle of Kherson" while this is "First Battle of Kherson"? Dawsongfg (talk) 17:39, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Since it is an oblast capital (and the only one captured), wording is the key. If a new battle occurred, and the city is not recaptured, it would be the “Second Battle of Kherson”, and this would be renamed to the “First Battle of Kherson”. If the city is recaptured, it would make sense for the “Liberation of Kherson”, due to it being a capital. (Similar to Liberation of Paris). Elijahandskip (talk) 17:43, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

It is dependent on how reliable sources cover it. It is not up to us to willy-nilly create titles for events. Curbon7 (talk) 18:12, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Uh it literally is, otherwise Great Raid of 2014 should be renamed. Dawsongfg (talk) 05:02, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Sources

Why are all of the article's sources coming from American, British or Ukrainian media? They remain too biased and must be balanced by Russian media too. 37.237.31.14 (talk) 01:09, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

First of all, Russian sources are used like this one from the Moscow Times, secondly, all the sources used are WP:RS, so if you can find any Russian sources, that are reliable sources and discuss this battle, feel free to add them. No bias is in the article. If you think there is a part that is biased, you can discuss it here. Elijahandskip (talk) 03:27, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

I support @Elijahandskip statement.

I would like to remark that Russian state affiliated sources are not often used since thy do not fall under the WP:RS due to their unreliable and often fabricated and generally unfactual nature.

As people trying to promote accurate information we must recognize what the Russian state is doing in the information space and must take precautions since our objective differ from those of the Kremlin in this regard. Castagna98 (talk) 05:51, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 2 September 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 01:16, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Battle of Kherson → First Battle of Kherson – This article is referring to the battle of Kherson in Feburary to March 2022, in the southern Ukraine offensive. The page should be renamed in order to avoid confusion with the battle of Kherson in the Ukrainian southern counteroffensive. Hydrochlorics (talk) 14:39, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Oppose and Wait: For now, it would be good to stay under the 2022 Ukrainian southern counteroffensive article. As Kherson is an oblast capital (and the only one captured during the invasion thus far), it would be logical to rename the new/second battle, once it occurs to Liberation of Kherson, similar to the Liberation of Paris article if Kherson is recaptured. If it is not recaptured & the new battle warrants an article, then we can rename this to first battle and the other battle as second battle. For now, the “second battle” does not have an article by itself yet, so renaming is pointless. Elijahandskip (talk) 14:48, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Speedy close. Ukrainian forces haven't even arrived in Kherson. Why would we spend one single second into personal conjecture and hypotheses? Super Ψ Dro 00:15, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
Speedy oppose Concur with Super Dromaeosaurus above. Premature. Curbon7 (talk) 00:50, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
Oppose Without a WP:crystal ball I see no Second battle of Kherson to confuse it with. —Michael Z. 17:19, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

When it happens it'll happen. 64.82.204.2 (talk) 16:03, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add current events/update article with 2022 Ukrainian counteroffensive info?

From the infobox, it appears like this article wants to discuss both the prior & ongoing battle(s) of Kherson. However, the article as it stands has mostly information regarding the initial Russian offensive from February to March 2022, and then an "Aftermath" section without any information regarding the current situation. Is there precedent to make a new section in this article to reference the 2022 Ukrainian southern counteroffensive since it relates to the Kherson Oblast, or should we wait until more information becomes available? Unburnable (talk) 18:23, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

No, the consensus with these past battles is that this article is limited in scope to the events of February and March. Anything new is to be covered at 2022 Ukrainian southern counteroffensive. Curbon7 (talk) 18:28, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Pinging User:StreamGamer. Curbon7 (talk) 20:14, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

If sources call it the second battle or just battle, then it's to be merged, otherwise it'd remain on there (even with nova kakhovka, melitopol, etc 64.82.204.2 (talk) 16:00, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Sources are not calling all the summer attacks and ongoing counteroffensive by ZSU as "Second Battle of Kherson" and such naming would cause further confusion because the battle continued in this area. 罗放 (talk) 03:23, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

ZSU capture abandoned Russian ammo storage in Blahodatne.webm

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:51, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Controversy section

Hey Curbon7. Since you added the controversy template to the article, do you have any immediate issues/see non-neutral issues with the section? I'm asking because after my copy/edit request out right now for the article, I was hoping to GAN it. Any thoughts would be useful. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 03:12, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Generally, such controversy sections should be intertwined with the article rather than separated out. Good luck on the GAN. Curbon7 (talk) 18:24, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Natural and logical sectioning and organization

This way the timeline is subdivided, with each day as its own sub-subsection, isn't great. It doesn't make for a logical experience when looking at the table of contents. It might be possible to organize it by "phases" of the battle instead, like how battle of Avdiivka (2022–present) does it. HappyWith (talk) 21:40, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Do you have any suggestions? Maybe 24-28 Feb is around Kherson and then 1-2 March is in Kherson? But then again, 24 Feb had the airport strike plus 24-26 Feb involved the battles at the bridge, which is also in Kherson. I know what you mean that it isn't ideal, but I'm honestly not sure how else to organize it besides the timeline, since fighting took place around Kherson and in Kherson just about every day. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 21:48, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I see your point. I might try to do some research to find retrospectives on the battle that might help us with analyzing and organizing the article in a logical structure. HappyWith (talk) 21:55, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Hey HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith, I'm on a self-imposed 0RR restriction, but I think at least one reference (the NYT reference named under "falls" (<ref name="falls"/>) should probably be added next to the Russian victory in the infobox. Some of the battles, even when it is clear who the victor is also have a reference next to the "X victory" in the infobox, i.e. Battle of Kyiv (2022). Also, since there is a common mistake that Ukraine won the "Battle of Kherson" (due to some sources stating the "Battle of Kherson" was the event in November), the source should probably remain in the infobox at least for the time being. Thoughts? The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 22:29, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't think that's necessary - there's a hatnote at the top of the article saying this isn't the same thing as the November event, and there's sourced text that say it was a Russian victory easily findable in the lead and article body. Per MOS:INFOBOXREF, "References are acceptable in some cases, but generally not needed in infoboxes if the content is repeated (and cited) elsewhere or if the information is obvious". HappyWith (talk) 22:32, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I've reorganized it along the lines of the way this article does. Let me know if you have suggestions or criticism, I can adjust it. HappyWith (talk) 23:00, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Unit flags

I think a nice touch to the article would be to add some unit flags in the infobox like it was done in the 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive page. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 22:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

MOS:INFOBOXFLAG recommends against this. HappyWith (talk) 22:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

😢 Alexis Coutinho (talk) 04:52, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

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