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| Just caught your live talk with ] on ]: . I especially liked your nostalgia for physical printed encyclopedias. Thanks for sharing. ]🐉(]) 19:15, 9 December 2023 (UTC) | Just caught your live talk with ] on ]: . I especially liked your nostalgia for physical printed encyclopedias. Thanks for sharing. ]🐉(]) 19:15, 9 December 2023 (UTC) | ||
| :That was an excellent interview, Jimbo. Informative, thoughtful, warm, upbeat and cheerful. I, too, grew up with World Book Encyclopedia. And I very rarely listen to one hour interviews. Well done. ] (]) 09:30, 11 December 2023 (UTC) | :That was an excellent interview, Jimbo. Informative, thoughtful, warm, upbeat and cheerful. I, too, grew up with World Book Encyclopedia. And I very rarely listen to one hour interviews. Well done. ] (]) 09:30, 11 December 2023 (UTC) | ||
| ::Thanks, these comments made me smile.--] (]) 11:28, 11 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 11:28, 11 December 2023
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Centralized discussion
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Censorship of Misplaced Pages
I am a participant of the Russian Misplaced Pages, my name is User:Рождествин.
I have been editing Misplaced Pages since 2008. Currently, there is a situation developing in the Russian Misplaced Pages that greatly concerns me. Below, I will provide a chronology of events and highlight the aspects that are causing my concern.
On November 6, 2023, I wrote an article about the head of an international drug cartel operating in Russia, Ukraine, and possibly Europe - Yegor Burkin:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/%D0%91%D1%83%D1%80%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BD,_%D0%95%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80_%D0%92%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87 (en version have been deleted too https://en.wikipedia.org/Egor_Burkin)
Three hours later, the article was deleted by a user, whose name I don't mention deliberately as a duplicate copy of a previously created and deleted article. It was removed without any discussion and even without notifying me This was not the correct resolution, as the article was written by me from scratch and had no relation to the previous version.
The article complied with the rules of the Russian section, so I raised the issue with the administrator forum to inquire about the reasons for such behavior. Administrator Lesless responded to me, stating that someone (not me, although I am the author of the article) received real-life threats related to this article. Due to this reason, the name of the user who deleted the article has been changed, the account was blocked (at that time), and any mention of this article started to be removed from Russian Misplaced Pages. A few minutes later, Oversighter Q-bit array deleted the entire edit history on the administrator forum with corresponding section (plz see Screenshot 1 as attached file).
Plz see the diff link https://ru.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Википедия%3AЗапросы_к_администраторам&diff=134040347&oldid=134040320
In a private email conversation, Administrator Lesless informed me that the article was removed for security reasons, and I should understand the danger. The administrator informed me that this was a private initiative of one or several administrators, who did not receive any instructions or directives from third parties, and strongly requested that I refrain from mentioning this incident further, citing the Foundation and the Foundation's legal department being aware of it. Currently, the article is protected from creation. All mentions of the discussion on this matter have been removed and hidden from the administrator forum and the article restoration page.
I acknowledge that the criminal organization in question is well-known and possesses significant resources. However, the situation where real-world threats result in the removal of an article can set a terrible precedent, which could have enormous consequences for Misplaced Pages: it would be sufficient to publish a threat towards the editors of a particular article to have it completely eradicated. This situation is reminiscent of an incident in the French version when an article was removed under pressure from intelligence services. (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/Censorship_of_Wikipedia#France ) I sincerely hope, although I cannot be entirely certain, that the administrators of the Russian Misplaced Pages are not operating under external pressure.
I consider this issue to require the attention of the Foundation, and I kindly ask you to clarify the following matters:
Can information about a character who is formally significant according to the criteria of notability be removed based on the decision of administrators of a regional project due to real-life threats received by some participants related to this article? --Рождествин (talk) 15:53, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
- User:Рождествин does not describe the situation quite correctly. I can only confirm that on resources external to Misplaced Pages, measures of physical coercion against Misplaced Pages users were discussed. The administrators of the Russian WP took measures. We also asked User:Рождествин to draw less attention to the situation, since the threat of de-anonymization of the users had not disappeared, but the participant, as we see, did not listen. Lesless (talk) 05:03, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Рождествин: If you want to engage the Foundation this page at Meta provides various ways of contacting them depending on the situation. MarcGarver (talk) 13:49, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- I do not want engage Fond. Russian wikipedia administrator told me that Fond had already been engaged. But I have grounds for doubt in his words. I had already sent a letter to legal@wikimedia.org a week ago but they didn't answer. Рождествин (talk) 21:53, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- A week is not very long. Your expectations of a quick answer are probably wrong. It isn't urgent, so it'll be dealt with at some point. I recommend waiting a few weeks then contacting them again. MarcGarver (talk) 09:57, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
- I do not want engage Fond. Russian wikipedia administrator told me that Fond had already been engaged. But I have grounds for doubt in his words. I had already sent a letter to legal@wikimedia.org a week ago but they didn't answer. Рождествин (talk) 21:53, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- There are two possible issues. First, per People accused of crime, people cannot be called criminals unless they have been convicted. Second, while I can find many articles about the alleged cartel in news outlets, none of them are considered reliable sources. See Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, which rates the reliablity of Sputnik and other publications that have covered the story.
- Can you provide any reliable sources that extensively document the topic? If not, it lacks notability for its own article. TFD (talk) 16:14, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- Please read my message attentively before answering. I don't complain about the deletion of article. I complain on reason of deletion. The reason is (by the words of russian wikipedia administratos) threats for users in real life. Article was deleted because of outside pressure. Is it clear enaugh now? Рождествин (talk) 22:00, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- And I am not a newcomer. I have been editing wiki sience 2008, so there is no need to tell me about reliable sources. Рождествин (talk) 22:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not allowed even discuss this article in russian wikipedia. Even mention it on forums. As I said, because of the threats against users. Do you understand the subject or I have to find another words to explain situation? Рождествин (talk) 22:08, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- There is no correct forum to do anything that might lead to people being harmed. It is unlikely that anyone here can judge whether harm may occur but that is going to make most of us decide to leave it to the current system. Raising a shit storm because you can might be an abuse of Misplaced Pages. What are you hoping to achieve? Not every wrong can be righted and while it might be ok to courageously put your own health on the line, it is not so good when doing that for others. Johnuniq (talk) 00:35, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- If the user reports stuff from mainstream media, there should be no harm. Misplaced Pages:WikiLeaks is not part of Misplaced Pages. If the user publishes novel allegations, they are banned as WP:OR. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:52, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- What I want achieve? It is not clear from my first message? I want to understand: 1) does the decision to delete an article about any person on Misplaced Pages comply with Misplaced Pages's rules and the Foundation allows the article's deletion if the article's author has received real-world threats? 2) does the Foundation know anything about the situation surrounding the article about Yegor Burkin? Has any evidence been provided to anyone at the Foundation that someone has received threats in connection with this article? I am the author of the article, and I have not received any threats, nor have I received any confirmation that such threats were received by anyone else. How can I know if the article was deleted due to threats rather than bribery of administrators in the Russian section or external pressure on them? Рождествин (talk) 02:48, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- @РождествинHi, have you read Misplaced Pages:Appeal to Jimbo? You'd better fix your problem locally, if local process is corrupted, you may want to go metawiki for help. -Lemonaka 09:00, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- Have you read my massege? It's not an appeal. It's not a local question, so why I should fix it localy? I don't understand why people hurry to give advices if they don’t understand the essence. Рождествин (talk) 22:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
- I'm a little suspect about the clearness of my explanation.
Jimbo has waived his rights as a founder for global issues years ago, they cannot block or lock anyone again. Months ago they even resigned on English Misplaced Pages as a sysop. Calling him for help is useless unless something is really urgent, e.g. a government is going to file a sue against Wikimedia Foundation.
This can be just likened to a school boy crying for help from principle. The better way is try to solve the problem in better process which has been already advised by others. -Lemonaka 05:40, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
- I'm a little suspect about the clearness of my explanation.
- There should be another essay: "Don't give advices if don't understand the plot". Рождествин (talk) 22:13, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
- Or maybe there's an essay to be written entitled "If you come from one language Misplaced Pages to English Misplaced Pages, even to post on the founder's talk page, you need to be very clear what action you think can and should be taken by a founder who has no special powers and a wiki that has no authority over your wiki and when editors are puzzled by what you want in that context maybe the fault is yours in being totally unclear and/or unrealistic as to why you are posting here" or something like that. DeCausa (talk) 22:35, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
- Have you read my massege? It's not an appeal. It's not a local question, so why I should fix it localy? I don't understand why people hurry to give advices if they don’t understand the essence. Рождествин (talk) 22:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
The Signpost: 4 December 2023
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Times Radio talk
Just caught your live talk with Ayesha Hazarika on Times Radio: Elon Musk is making Twitter vulnerable of a MySpace-style death. I especially liked your nostalgia for physical printed encyclopedias. Thanks for sharing. Andrew🐉(talk) 19:15, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
- That was an excellent interview, Jimbo. Informative, thoughtful, warm, upbeat and cheerful. I, too, grew up with World Book Encyclopedia. And I very rarely listen to one hour interviews. Well done. Cullen328 (talk) 09:30, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, these comments made me smile.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:28, 11 December 2023 (UTC)