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North Africa Definition PoV War - Article Mess needs substantial revert/cleanup

The Edit War apparently starting some time in 2017 has rendered this article an utter mess.

1. Map: now shows Morocco, excludes Western Saharan territory, which is highly unstandard. Regardless of territorial views, the Western Saharan territory is typically included in North Africa. Equally the Northern Sudan is usually included and here is excluded. I gather from reading this page due to non-encyclopaedic racialist reasoning. I will put back in the Jan 2017 map which is encyclaedic and shows both core and 'wider' territory that is frequently but not always included in North Africa as a geographic term in the ordinary English usage.
2. False citation claims for example it is asserted in the first paragraph that US Census bureau defines North African. In fact the cited US Census documentation asserts no specific 'North African' definition at all. The linked / cited documents dating from 2006 to 2015 cite a general category of variously named "Near Eastern and North African" or "Middle Eastern and North African" ethnicities / populations including countries but assert no specific definition of the Region itself, only the broader conceptual geographic region of Middle-East and North Africa. The claim in the text that North Africa is actually defined in these cites is simply false. It is implied, but with no definitional precision and certainly is not a strong source for a geographic region (insofar as the US Census is ... well the American bureau for its internal population, not an international agency.
3. Idiosyncratic Non Encyclopaedic definitions / Inclusions: It is typically the case that Misplaced Pages seeks not to assert de novo idiosyncratic definitions. The addition of for example the Italian islands is strange and bizzare. I have literally in 25 years of professional work in the MENA region never seen anyone include the Italian islands as part of North Africa. Unless there is some source Ex Misplaced Pages supporting this, they should be removed. Equally the inclusion of the Canary Islands is entirely unsupported - the citations given contain zero support for the inclusion. The US Census Bureau makes no mention of the Canaries as North Africa and the link to a graphic on the UN geographic regions is apparently mistakenly using non-colouration as a basis. The actual Wiki article on the UN regions for Africa shows clearly the country definition (supported by proper citation and found directly on https://unstats.un.org/unsd/methodology/m49/ under geographic regions definition.
4. Contradictory and incoherent country list: The country listing doubles up for example the Western Sahara and SADR - the same bloody territory - that is excluded incoherently on the map. It includes of course as noted above the strange assertion on the Canaries, the Italian islands, etc. which has no support in general usage of the term and is a de novo definition being created on wikipedia (presumably based on geological basis, but that does not figure in the geographic usage which is geo-political.

As ten years ago I participated in a prior bit of madness by a rather similar banned sockpuppet Mariam83, I will proceed to editing now. --collounsbury (talk) 11:34, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

• On the topic of the Canary Islands, one has to be a very special kind of blind to ignore geographical and topological data that asserts the observable fact that they're part of the African continent, African plate, and the North Africa region. No matter what the learned Collounsbury states about the UN regions for Africa, had they actually visited the website on https://unstats.un.org/unsd/methodology/m49/ (as they themselves suggest), they'd realise that the list of countries that form part of North Africa according to the UN for statistical purposes is a geopolitical list that cannot include the Canary islands since they're part of Spain. Heck, that list doesn't mention the Canary Islands as a country or area belonging to any world region because they simply aren't a country! The list also omits Ceuta and Melilla from the North Africa region (in fact, they don't appear on the list as part of any UN region whatsoever) because they're not sovereign nations (they're also Spanish). And yet, nobody in their right mind would contend that this means Ceuta and Melilla are not geographically part of North Africa, since they're actually located on mainland Africa.

But hey, what do I know, this is just another example of how Misplaced Pages favours the editor's own views rather than scientifically observable and accepted facts. The contradiction between Collounsbury's claims and the Misplaced Pages Africa page speaks volumes about the encyclopedic quality of Misplaced Pages as a whole. 5.148.51.52 (talk) 02:03, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

• Comment The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. However, other sources also include the Sudan in East Africa and/or sub-Saharan Africa. Western Sahara is sometimes included in West Africa. Ceuta, Melilla, the Plazas de soberanía, and the Autonomous Regions of Portugal are parts of North Africa, but the Canary Islands are a part of West Africa. A few Italian offshore islands (Pantelleria and the Pelagie Islands) are also geographically parts of North Africa. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 02:29, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Sudan?

Is it really an unadulterated fact that Sudan is part of North Africa? Shouldn't that be in the Sub-Saharan Africa article? 41.245.142.30 (talk) 14:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, socks of Mariam83 pop up every few months to say the same thing. --Kralizec! (talk) 01:52, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Quite apart from that remark, do you not feel that if multiple people are bringing this up, that there may not be something valid in it without merely saying "Yeah..." ? If one looks at the geography/climate/fauna/flora/culture of Sudan we see that it has far more in common with say Chad or Uganda than Morocco or Tunisia. Likewise the population is far more like that of a Sub-Saharan nation than a Southern Mediterranean one. Having read the archives, from what I understand, it is only because the official position of the USA that "Sudan is in North Africa" that it is included here. Meanwhile actual North Africans feel otherwise(as was made clear, sometimes with vulgarity), and the satellite images, fauna, flora etc etc would suggest that Sudan is NOT North Africa. So the question then becomes...Is wikipedia merely a projection of US propaganda, or is it an independent and unbiased factual resource? 41.245.142.30 (talk) 11:13, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

• Sudan is part of the Northeast África(with Etiópia, Somaliland, etc...) and not North África(populations Berbero-Semitics). Northeast África(Sudan, Etiopia, Somalia, etc...) is majority Etiopoid/Camitic/afro-arab populations in the etno-historic factors. Only North/Northeast Sudan is North Africa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.13.252.107 (talk) 18:31, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

The UN document is the basis of the article and there Sudan is Nort Afrika.--Stone (talk) 11:06, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

• the UN is a corruptive organization, not have legitimity..sudan is sahel.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.64.33.193 (talk) 20:44, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Sudan is not classed as being in North Africa by the people of North Africa. Mrmisr (talk) 09:14, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

This is the sa e problem as your belief that the tern Nile Valley excludes Sudan despite the sources. We go by what reliable sources say, not editors' opinions. Doug Weller talk 19:39, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

This has been questioned too much, and I believe it should be in the Sub-Saharan Africa article. 2.5 Bobux (talk) 15:53, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• Comment It appears that the UN Statistics Division is the only principle source that includes Sudan in its North Africa definition. It is not included in the definition of the African Union, the World Bank or the Encyclopedia Britannica. This issue should probably be re-addressed. Iskandar 323 (talk) 08:29, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• Comment The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. However, other sources also include the Sudan in East Africa and/or sub-Saharan Africa. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 02:36, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Removing POV language on W. Sahara

I noted that Koavf restored without discussion his preferred POV, partisan, language on W. Sahara w/o discussion. I have restored the compromise version achieved in 2007, and tweaked to hopefully achieve a NPOV version that balances both Polisario and Moroccan activist views, and communicates actual facts. (collounsbury (talk) 21:38, 29 September 2008 (UTC))

Sudan not is North Africa

Sudan is Northeast Africa(Subsaharian Africa of the Northeast). North Africa are the North-Berbero-Semitic peoples("caucasoids"), and Sudanese people not is Berbero-Semitic(Sudan is a Afro-Arab country and not a caucasoid nation). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.71.79.94 (talk) 21:49, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• The climate of the major parts of Sudan not is North African(yellow in the map); the climate of Central Africa in the major parts of Sudan it´s here: http://br.weather.com/maps/regioesdomundo/intlhemisferico/index_large.html

I understand what you are saying but sudan is still lumped in with north african countries ,i dont consider sudan as north african either because sudanese are black and sudan is a sub saharan african country, but its not what we think now is it,it's what reliable sources say--Wikiscribe (talk) 19:32, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

First, the colour of Sudanese or their 'racial' make up has fuck all to do with whether Sudan is "North African" - there are black, 'Negroid' Moroccans, Algerians and Tunisians of unquestionable North Africaness (and in the instance of the Maghreb, genetic and archaeological suggestions that some of these populations are not related to the slave trade, but predate antiquity). The identification of the populations of North Africa by linguistic filiation says fuck all about their race - "caucasoid nation" is meaningless 19th century claptrap.

Second, climate is not a defining factor in geographical regions as such. The Maghreb, a clear part of North Africa, to take an example, has multiple climate zones - one can not in fact speak of a "North African" climate - there are climates that cover North Africa, in the plural. Sudan, like Mauretania and in fact any of the Sahara straddling countries, presents ambiguities. Sudan is both partially Saharo-North African AND sub-Saharan. More than one thing. Such categories are merely analytical ones of convenience and not things that exist as platonic ideals. Get over it. (collounsbury (talk) 18:41, 24 February 2009 (UTC))

• Sudan in dark green??? Sudan is light green in the map with Mauritania(Mauritania too have DNA of the North Africa and not is Dark green in the map, because Sudan is diferentt of Mauritania?? why??

QI prove of Sudan not is North african:

http://en.wikipedia.org/File:IQ_by_Country.png

North Africa = Dark purple(middle QI) and Sudan/Subsaarian Africa = light purple(small QI)!! This is a neurological prove!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.8.174.61 (talk) 04:16, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

• Demografic/etnic prove: http://en.wikipedia.org/Demography_of_Sudan#Ethnic_groups

Ethnic groups black 52%, Arab 39%, Beja 6%, foreigners 2%, other 1%

Sudan is a subsaarian country(52%) and not a north african/arab/berber country(39%)!!! Sudan is Sahel(transition) with Mauritania!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.8.174.61 (talk) 05:00, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. The very name "Sudan" is a giveaway as to what region it belongs to. 41.245.185.66 (talk) 12:05, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Many people think that Caucasnoid and White are interchangeable but it is actually a misconception. Caucasnoid, Mongoliod, and Negroid are actual races. Black and White are just colors depending on how much melanin a person has in their body and are misconceptions of the definition of race. The native North African were said to have dark skin, but were Caucasians. The why European thought that they were White because when they examine skull it was Causcasnoid skull. There is also the melanin dose test on the ancient skeltons to see how much radiate off of their body. Also just because the majority of people who live in Sudan are black does not mean all of them are and the classification of a person being black differs in varies countries—Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.4.83.173 70.144.7.15 (talk) 21:29, 29 August 2009 (UTC)(talk) 03:15, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

The UN document is the basis of the article and there Sudan is Nort Afrika.--Stone (talk) 11:06, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

• the UN is a corruptive organization..!this classification not is scientific; it´s a pseudoscience of obscure interests.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.114.192.174 (talk) 11:04, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

This whole thread only employs scientific racism as fact to “disprove” a GEOGRAPHICAL region. I have a hard time believing any of you are North African, if so, you are very Westernized. I am Maghrebi. It only takes a quick survey of any academic journal on geography to politics in order to discern Sudan as Northern. In fact, a basic understanding of history (Berlin Conference of the 1800s) would show you that today’s Egypt and Sudan were one. Additionally, there are geological and epigraphic samples to look at if you were genuinely interested. Quit dragging 4chan discussions into what should be an encyclopedic reference for the generally curious. You will realize that English Wiki, unlike others, is the only one with this questionable mapping of North Africa. Itaren (talk) 01:11, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

• Comment It is. The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. However, other sources also include the Sudan in East Africa and/or sub-Saharan Africa. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 02:37, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Sudan proof?

Is anyone having reliable proof that Sudan is North Africa, and not in Sub-Saharan Africa, or else it should be removed. Yes. 41.245.148.16 (talk) 15:49, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

The UN document is the basis of the article and there Sudan is Nort Afrika.--Stone (talk) 11:06, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

• Comment The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. However, other sources also include the Sudan in East Africa and/or sub-Saharan Africa. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 02:54, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Linked not Separated

Whatever terms one uses to describe the various regions, one thing is clear, the Sahara in all respects joins North Africa to Southern Africa. Firstly, the Sahara is land, not outer-space - so there is no physical separation. Secondly, the Northern most states of Africa all have land borders with states that are to the south of them - some in the Sahara, some only partially so. Thirdly, the Northern most states all have cultural links to the lands to the south of them, sharing languages, religious beliefs and other cultural traits - including extensive, ancient trading links. Fourthly, the northern most states to the far east and west of the region share coastlines with their southern neighbours (Egypt with Sudan, Morocco with Mauritania). Fifth, the states to the north and their southern neighbours share political affiliations in, for example, the Arab League and the African Union. One of the world's major rivers flows from the South, to North Africa). Ackees (talk) 17:31, 24 April 2009 (UTC) FUCK

Another messed up Article

What is the deal about North Africa, we seem to have a bunch of messed up folks working on these things. I clicked on a link concerning the peoples of North Africa and it was redirected to an article on West Asia. There are also Negroid africans and Berbers living in North Africa. Where are the admins for wikipedia regarding some of these articles?PB666  23:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Sudan is Sahel and not North Africa

• And the South Sudan is Central Africa..!!

The UN document is the basis of the article and there Sudan is Nort Afrika.--Stone (talk) 11:06, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

While, the UN document may be the basis, the climate, geography, fauna, flora etc show Sudan having far more in common with Sub-Saharan Africa(where people do not speak ebonics) than with North Africa. In addition while the Northern part of Sudan is technically in the Sahara region, the largest population clusterings are in the tropical South of the country. That so many people regard Sudan as NOT being part of North Africa can not be dismissed with one UN document. Likewise, while it is not acceptable wikipedia evidence, I have friends who come from Algeria who most certainly do not consider Sudanese to be "like them". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.179.120 (talk) 10:19, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, said UN document has a broad "East Africa" designation, in which both Ethiopia and Somalia on the one hand, and Zimbabwe and Zambia on the other are lumped into this category. Does anyone honestly believe that Somalia and Zimbabwe share any similarities despite both being on the continent of Africa? EVERYTHING about these two states is different, linguistically, biologically, geographically, climate, fauna, flora, etc etc etc. This is the first time I have ever heard anyone say that Zimbabwe is in east Africa! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.179.120 (talk) 10:22, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. However, other sources also include the Sudan in East Africa and/or sub-Saharan Africa. South Sudan is a part of East Africa, it is a member state of the East African Community. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 02:42, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Western Sahara Case and Flag

Western Sahara is a territory and not a country. It's actually administered by the kingdom of Morocco. The presence of Western Sahara in the table is definitely justified if the term TERRITORY is associated to Western Sahara. The flag associated to Western Sahara is presented here as if Western Sahara is a sovereign country while it's not according to the UN. The flag put beside Western Sahara is the flag of the separatist faction Polisario Front claiming independence of the Western Sahara and backed in Tindouf south Algeria. My proposal is to mention "Western Sahara territory" without flag. That's exactly what the UNHCR is mentioning in its official website.--Moroccansahraoui (talk) 09:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment Western Sahara is a disputed territory. Listing Western Sahara without a flag complies with the WP:NPOV policy. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 02:48, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Basic Propeties of the Table

The basic facts in the table do not add up. If you look at the figures for population, GDP and GDP per capita then the relationship should (obviously) hold such that:

GDP per capita = GDP / Population

As this doesnt hold, one of these three figures must be incorrect (or measured differently). Does anyone have an explanation and/or correction we can include? 130.195.96.112 (talk) 20:22, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Unreliable source - Muslimheritage.com material

Content from Muslimheritage.com / FSTC is an unreliable source, as discussed on Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_18#History_of_Science. None of its publications are peer-reviewed, and its authors often exhibit a strong bias and incomplete or flawed citation practices. The site has been used as a source in numerous articles to make extraordinary claims about Islamic invention and discovery. I am working to remove general references to the cite, and extraordinary claims where they stem directly and solely from a Muslimheritage.com reference. Many of these claims were added by a user who has a history of using flawed sources for extraordinary claims, as discussed on Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Jagged_85. That page details numerous examples where claims from these sources contradict more reliable sources, on a scale which casts the entirety of the material originating from the site into doubt. If you would like to discuss this or any related removal with me, please leave a note on my talk page. Dialectric (talk) 12:10, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

sudan 2

sudan not is north africa; sudan is sahel..UN is a corruptive organization and ilegitime - pseudoscientific..only north sudan and northeast is north africa; central, south, southwest sudan is northeast of central africa.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.114.192.174 (talk) 11:07, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

and mauritania is north africa..northern tchad, northern mali, northern niger, etc.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.114.192.174 (talk) 11:09, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

• Comment The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. However, other sources also include the Sudan in East Africa and/or sub-Saharan Africa. Mauritania is a part of West Africa. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:05, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Add names of countries on the map

What this article (like, probably, many other ones) lacks, makes it much less useful as a source of information. A reader sees from a provided in the article list what countries are considered part of Northern Africa and gets some information about these countries from a provided table. A reader also sees a map of Northern Africa with the borders between countries shown. But he cannot connect one with the other, because the names of the countries are not shown on the map. I think it is a huge deficiency. I actually believe it has to be one of the standard requirements to specify the country names on a map when writing an article about a geopolitical region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.190.128.2 (talk) 22:50, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

South Sudan

Today South Sudan separated from Sudan and became a sovereign state. The map should be updated to include the border between Sudan and South Sudan. Thanks. Vis-a-visconti (talk) 23:52, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Is South Sudan part of North Africa? It is not in the sources, I know technically it is, but politically, culturally, etc it is most def not.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 08:28, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree but the U.N has decided to put it in North Africa region, which doesn't make sens. Tachfin (talk) 16:47, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

South Sudan is now a part of East Africa. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:01, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Page move discussion

The article page was recently moved to 'Africa/North Africa'. Where was the recent page move or rename discussed? I don't see it here on this discussion page, where there should at least be a link to the discussion. The formatting with the / looks odd to me. Would you please explain the change if it is not explained elsewhere? Would you make the same change to South Asia? Dialectric (talk) 14:54, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

I was just history merging the page. Graham87 15:03, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

I understand the merging of histories but the current title is "Africa/North Africa". I don't think you did that intentionally it should be moved back to "North Africa" (see move log) --Tachfin (talk) 15:09, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

As Tachfin says, the move log says that in that history merge, you moved North Africa to Africa/North Africa. Can you rename it back to just 'North Africa'? Dialectric (talk) 15:13, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

I've attempted to explain why nothing is wrong at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive228#Histmerge needs fixing. If anyone is still seeing the title of this page as "Africa/North Africa", you need to purge your cache because there is no problem with what Graham87 did. Bencherlite 00:32, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Ok thanks, I see the correct title now. I didn't know that a cache purge was necessary.--Tachfin (talk) 01:00, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

South Sudan

Is South Sudan actually part of North Africa? Sudan was/is listed as North Africa, but surely not South Sudan? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.117.234 (talk) 16:25, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

• Comment The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. South Sudan is a part of East Africa, it is a member state of the East African Community. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:00, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Sudan and Mauritania

Sudan and Mauritania are Sahel, NOT North Africa! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.186.16.212 (talk) 10:59, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

• Comment The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. However, other sources also include the Sudan in East Africa and/or sub-Saharan Africa. Mauritania is a part of West Africa. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:02, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

South Sudan

While Sudan is definitely part of North Africa, I don't think South Sudan can be, geographically or politically, considered in North Africa. I've removed this from the article. 203.206.101.76 (talk) 09:16, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

• Sudan is Sahel, not North Africa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.158.153.203 (talk) 12:07, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. However, other sources also include the Sudan in East Africa and/or sub-Saharan Africa. South Sudan is a part of East Africa, it is a member state of the East African Community. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:04, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Arab as ethnic group

This article says "Arabs" and Berbers are the largest ethnic groups in modern Egypt - that's truth ethno-linguistically but not genetically. The DNA history of Egypt article shows that genetically Egypt's racial profile hasn't shifted that much from ancient to modern times - are we saying that ancient Egyptians were ethnic> That's a tricky assertion.Gymnophoria (talk) 14:21, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Saharan Africa?

It's weird, if the region below the Sahara is called "Sub-Saharan Africa", then why isn't the Northern part called "Saharan Africa" in return? 71.23.85.67 (talk) 00:58, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Because the people of North Africa predominantly live above the Sahara, not in it.

Am removing a reference

I am removing a reference to . I am not in the habit of removing sources. However, this time, I found nothing in this American federal authorities document, which wes related to anything in the paragraph where the single reference to this source occurred. North Africa or Northen Africa is just mentioned once in the entire document, namely in the definition of belonging to the race White:

A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa.

(Precisely what they meant by "North Africa" was not clarified there.)

Perhaps some earlier version of the article contained some reference to "race" in this paragraph. However, the present formulations do not contain such references, as far as I can see. If I missed something, feel free to revert my edit; but please also drop a line here explaining what the purpose of the note is! JoergenB (talk) 12:59, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

You forgot about Poland

The list of countries in the preamble somehow managed to exclude Chad which is North Africa by many definitions, except the extremely narrow one from the UN. Le Grand Bleu (talk) 07:40, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, there is absolutely no way that Chad is in North Africa. Mrmisr (talk) 23:30, 15 June 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrmisr (talk • contribs) 22:44, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Original Research

The distinction between North Africa and much of Sub-Saharan Africa is historically and ecologically significant because of the effective barrier created by the Sahara Desert for much of modern history. From 3500 BC, following the abrupt desertification of the Sahara due to gradual changes in the Earth's orbit, this barrier has culturally separated the North from the rest of the continent. As the seafaring civilizations of the Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Muslims and others facilitated communication and migration across the Mediterranean Sea, the cultures of North Africa became much more closely tied to Southwestern Asia and Europe than Sub-Saharan Africa. The Islamic influence in the area is also significant, and North Africa is a major part of the Muslim world.

These statements about culture are not supported by the source cited. The opinions need to be removed if there is not a source to substantiate.

Alienkind (talk) 16:12, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Spain

Should the Spanish areas geographically in North Africa, next to Morocco, like Ceuta, be added to the article? Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 02:45, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

• Yes, they should. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:08, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 23 December 2017

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

change this The U.S Census define North Africa as Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Morocco and Tunisia. to The U.S Census define North Africa as Algeria, Sudan, Egypt, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia. Because that is the Definition of North Africa by the U.S Census since the 1800s till now. The other link is a meeting summary to purpose a new definition of MENA.

Also, change

to File:Location_of_North_Africa_on_the_Earth.jpg Location of North Africa on Earth as deinfed by the U.S Census since 1800 and U.N]]

References

1. https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/working-papers/2015/demo/MENA-Forum-Summary-and-Appendices.pdf
2. https://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0081/twps0081.pdf

Mameab1989 (talk) 20:53, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:23, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 24 December 2017

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

change

to File:Location_of_North_Africa_on_the_Earth.jpg Location of North Africa on Earth as defined by the U.S Census since 1800 and U.N Mameab1989 (talk) 00:06, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

change The most commonly accepted definition by the U.S, U.N and most world governing bodies includes Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia, as well as Libya and Egypt. to the most commonly accepted definition include Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia, Libya, Sudan and Egypt.Mameab1989 (talk) 00:06, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Change The U.S Census define North Africa as Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Morocco and Tunisia. to The U.S Census define North Africa from the 1800s till our current time as Algeria, Libya, Sudan, Egypt, Morocco and Tunisia.

References

1. Cite error: The named reference census.gov was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
2. Cite error: The named reference census.gov1 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

(Mameab1989 (talk) 00:06, 25 December 2017 (UTC)) Mameab1989 (talk) 00:06, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

• @Mameab1989: Just a general comment about your recent edit requests. Please don't repeatedly post the same request. It sometimes takes time for someone to review a request, so just be patient and wait to someone does. If you want revise an existing request, then just edit the relevant section accordingly.

Also, please do not uploaded a non-free file just to add them to an article's talk page. This is something not permitted by Misplaced Pages's non-free content use policy. If you want to add a non-free file to an article and are unable to do so yourself, then provide a link to the page where the file can be found so that others can see it determine if it should be added. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:31, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:23, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Definition of North Africa

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

ryanoo and others, why not accept that North Africa can be interpreted in many ways and create an article accordingly? Sudan's inclusion is historic and links to its joint history with Egypt. The US census is only one interpretation that carries no greater weight than many other sources that interpret North Africa in a different way. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 08:53, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion Roger 8 Roger but Sudan was and is totally different racially, culturally, genetically, historically and in every aspect from Egypt and other North African countries. Egyptians were and are related culturally and genetically ( as proven by peer reviewed DNA studies of ancient remains ) to neighboring Levantines and other Mediterranean North Africans to a lesser extent. If you are talking about the ancient Egyptian occupation of Nubia and Kush kingdoms during some periods, Ancient Egyptians as well occupied all Levant and big parts of Mesopotamia, Libya and Southern Anatolia but that won't make those areas North African countries. Egypt during all the Islamic caliphates was ruled as one mass with Levant but that won't make this area North African and won't make Egypt Levantine country. If you are talking about the Egyptian occupation of Sudan during Mohammad Ali dynasty, Egypt at that time also occupied all Levant, parts of Greece and most of Arabian peninsula https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:States_under_Muhammad_ali%27s_rule.jpg but that definitely won't make those areas North African countries. If you are talking about the link between the very tiny Nubian minority in far southernmost of Modern Egypt and Nubians in Sudan, there are also stronger links between Toubou people and Tuaregs in South Libya and Chad and the same goes for Algeria and Niger and Mali where there is also some historic links but that won't make those countries North African countries. Should we consider Morocco a South European country because it has historic links with Iberian peninsula??!. Sudan which means the land of Blacks in Arabic was the name given by Arabs to all the area which extends from Sudan in the East and includes Chad, Mali,... etc till Senegal in the West. This Sudanese user Mameab1989 / 172.78.99.127 is the one who suggested using the US census definition ad has insulted me before, Sudan isn't included in North Africa by most such as World Bank, US Census, African Union itself, FAO, Population Reference Bureau, WTO and many others. The most commonly accepted definition includes the Mediterranean countries in the northernmost of the continent ( Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco ). This Sudanese user (Mameab1989 / 172.78.99.127) has insulted me before in one of his edit summaries by calling me hating Masri ( Egyptian ) and immature disgusting person and said in another edit summary "the original inhabitants there are Copts in the shores and Nubians to the south of Giza all the way down" which is pure nonsense and shows that he has some Afrocentric agenda which is very offensive to Egyptians. Copts were and are the only natives of both Upper Egypt ( south of Giza all the way down ) and lower Egypt and in fact the vast majority of christian Copts currently live in Upper Egypt. Nubians were and are totally different racially, culturally, genetically, historically and they spoke and still speak totally different language which belongs to totally different language family and are centered in Sudan and in fact they were enemies of Egyptians. Egypt was and is a Mediterranean transcontinental country located in North Africa and West Asia and it is a Middle Eastern country. Unfortunately, the Afro-centrists succeeded in spreading their nonsense among African Americans, many Sudanese and others. Egyptians are really offended by this Afrocentric nonsense and find it quite annoying and ridiculous and I think you would agree with me that cultural appropriation and stealing history and culture from the natives of any country is quite offensive. Thank you Ryanoo (talk) 18:56, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Hello Mr.ryanoo it is me Mameab1989 (talk) 21:16, 11 January 2018 (UTC) First I did not mean to insult you. I was only trying to speak the truth. I have meet a few people like you from Egypt(most people are not like you in Egypt) who try to deny that Nubians are Egyptians and are the original inhabitants of Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan. I would like for you first to read these facts with an open mind and accept the truth. First, the culturally, historically connection of Egypt and Sudan are well documented read Charles Bonnet, The Nubian Pharaohs, which he states that the original inhabitants of Egypt are the Nubians who cultivated the first civilization and eventually developed the Egyptian pharaonic civilization. Moreover, you can read mtDNA Analysis of Nile River Valley Populations: A Genetic Corridor or a Barrier to Migration?, and Northeast African genomic variation shaped by the continuity of indigenous groups and Eurasian migrationsboth studies outline the racially and genetically connection of Sudan and Egypt, and some of the differences given the fact that almost every major empire rules Northern Egypt to some extent and left their offsprings there, which was not the case in Southern Egypt. Also, when I called you masri I did not mean it as an ethnicity I meant it as someone who lives in Egypt. Ethnically Egypt as a country now is multi-ethnic there is Turks, Albanian, Greek, French, Assyrian, Persian, Albanian, Arab, English, and Italian all are fine people, but are they the original ethnic group of Egypt? No, the only two ethnic groups to Ancient Egyptians are the Nubians and Copts, and the Nubians far more closer to the original ancient Egyptians according to Charles Bonnet and Jean-François Champollion who stated in his work Egypte Ancien that the Egyptians and Nubians are represented in the same manner in tomb paintings and reliefs, further suggesting that: "In the Copts of Egypt, we do not find any of the characteristic features of the ancient Egyptian population. The Copts are the result of crossbreeding with all the nations that successfully dominated Egypt. It is wrong to seek in them the principal features of the old race. Also, if you understand Arabic you can watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEKzcOLl_so. Moreover, I can't believe you just said Muhammed Ali the Albanian is Egypian he is not neither are the Turks who reside in Egypt, and the Turks and Albanian are fine people, but they are not the original Egyptian. In regard to the definition of North Africa here is the definition of the U.S Census, U.N and International Organization for Migration (IOM) which include Sudan in North Africa and for racial category for the U.S Census Sudan is part of North Africa. You can call the U.S Census offfice in DC and check yourself the definition include Sudan. This is the English page so it include Sudan. In the Arab world North Africa only reefers to the Berbers inhabited area. while, Sudan, Egypt, and Libya are included with the Middle East, but this is the English page so the definition we go by is the U.N and U.S Census. Moreover, Djibouti is included in North Africa according to the World Bank. Yet, you do not put it on the page or table of North Africa quite offensive. Also, the term Sudan was not given by the Arabs to the region it was called that during the time of the Ottoman and Muhammad Ali. During the time of the Arab it was known a the Kingdom of Makuria. At the end of the day I love Masr and Sudan and my culture and history. Yes, cultural appropriation and stealing history and culture from the natives of any country is quite offensive so stop trying to remove the Nubians, Beja people, and Nuba from the Ancient history of North Africa, and Egypt in particular. Thank you!

Thank you for your reply Mr. Mameab1989 / 172.78.99.127 but sorry all what you said is pure nonsense as there is no even one word true in what you said, it is very obvious that you have an Afrocentric agenda and Unfortunately for you I am a geneticist. Are you lying to yourself my friend ? :) Anyone ( either Egyptian or not ) knows clearly that what you wrote a pure nonsense which exists only in your imagination and in fact you saved me a lot time by posting these links because you debunked yourself by these links as it obviously contradict all what you said at all, so you did a good job in debunking yourself by yourself :). First of all there are no any Persians , French, ..... etc and all what you mentioned in Egypt, this fairy tale only exists in the imagination of Afrocentrists. By the way there is no any archaeologist or anthropologist or geneticist or Egyptologist called Charles Bonnet, did you just make up that fairly tale?! :). And what you said about Jean-François Champollion is a pure joke as he has NEVER EVER said something like that because simply he was a philologist and linguist who has nothing at all to do with anthropology or archaeology or genealogy ( I love the way you make up stories and believe it and I have to admit that you have a good imagination my friend :) ) and he is the one who deciphered the ancient Egyptian language by using COPTIC language and other related Afro-Asiatic Middle Eastern languages: Aramaic, Syriac, Chaldean and Arabic and he stated that COPTIC language is the purest descendant of the ancient Egyptian language. It is really funny when a Sudanese person is trying to teach me about my country's history, have you ever seen a Congolese teaching an English person about his English history ? :)

The second joke is what you said that Sudan ( which means the Land of Black people in Arabic ) was the name given by Ottomans !!! to your country, the word "Sudan" is an Arabic word not Turkish word my friend :) and you know this very well, Sudan was the name given by Arabs to all the area which extends from Sudan ( land of Black people in Arabic ) in the East till and includes Chad, Mali,... etc till Senegal in the west and you are quite aware of this. The funniest Joke ever is what you said about Copts, in Egypt there are Arabs and Copts and all Egyptians consider Christian Copts https://imgur.com/a/tVTKJ ( the majority of christian Copts live in the South which debunks your nonsense ) the pure descendants of ancient Egyptians and the Coptic language ( the latest stage of the ancient Egyptian language ) the only descendant of ancient Egyptian language , I am a native Egyptian and I have never met an Egyptian in my whole life who consider himself anything from this weird list you mentioned which exists only in your Afrocentric imagination :). ALL Egyptians consider the very tiny Nubian minority ( 0.002 % ) in the very far southernmost of Egypt a diaspora distinct Black Sub-Saharan Sudanese Nilo-Saharan minority from Nubia who happened to have the Egyptian nationality, there are also Nubian minorities in Kenya and Uganda as well as other countries. Nubians are quite aware of this fact and none of them consider himself descendant of ancient Egyptians or such weird nonsense except for very few ones counted on the fingers of one hand only in the last 7 years after being taught this nonsense by Black American Afrocentrists.

The peer reviewed genetic studies show clearly that neither Egyptians or Christian Copts have any Greek or Persian DNA or anything from your weird list DNA. Ancient Egyptians were and still are related culturally, genetically, historically, linguistically,... etc to the neighboring Levantines and other Mediterranean North Africans to a lesser extent. The peer reviewed studies done on Ancient Egyptian mummies shows clearly that ancient Egyptians cluster with Bronze age West Asian Levantines and that modern Egyptians ( the descendants of ancient Egyptians ) in addition to their overwhelmingly Ancient Middle Eastern DNA, some of them have received 0~8% Sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times. The DNA samples covers a very huge time frame from the 18th dynasty ( THE GOLDEN ERA of Egypt ) all the way till the Roman era which is around 2000 years !! and what is interesting is that despite the huge time frame, all samples are genetically very homogeneous and show perfect continuity and they have no any Greek , Roman or Persian DNA which means that so-called invasions had no any effect on the genetic pool of ancient Egyptians so what you said is pure nonsense plus Levant and Mesopotamia were invaded much more than Egypt, the cruel Mongols invaded Iraq yet modern Iraqis don’t look Mongolian or have Mongolian DNA. Ancient Egyptians were a head of their time and they successfully as well occupied all Levant, Sudan and big parts of Mesopotamia, Libya and Southern Anatolia.The genetic studies on Modern Egyptians shows clearly that they cluster with their neighboring Levantine populations specially Southern Levantines and Other Mediterranean North African to a lesser extent and that during the last 700 years, few Egyptians have received very minor Sub-Saharan admixture and that during the last 1200 years, few of the other North Africans in the Maghreb have received very minor West African Sub-Saharan admixture. The dental morphology of the Roman-period Egyptian mummies was also compared with that of earlier Egyptian populations, and was found to be much more closely akin to that of ancient and predynastic Egyptians than to Greeks or other European populations which again confirms what I said before that the so-called invasions had no effect on the ancient Egyptian population. First modern man in Egypt was CRO-MAGNON who resemble European Upper Paleolithic age humans going back more than 30000 years and Copts still till today carry his MTDNA U6 as their main Haplogroup. The anthropomorphic and craniometric studies on pre-dynastic Neolithic ancient Egyptians show clearly that ancient Egyptians cluster with ancient populations of Southern Levant. Genetic studies on modern Egyptians shows clearly that they cluster with Southern Levantines such as Palestinians and Jordanians.

The most notable anthropologists: Loring Brace, David P. Tracer, Lucia Allen Yaroch, John Robb, Kari Brandt, A. Russell Nelson have said "The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania " and they also said "We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well". Ancient Egyptians considered Nubians Black Sub-Saharan Africans who have totally distinct culture and spoke and still speak totally different language belonging to totally different language family ( Nilo-Saharan ) like the languages of Nuba people and other Sub-Saharan Africans, Nubians still practice till today pure Sub-Saharan customs such as tribal scarification https://imgur.com/a/TDVYW. Any Egyptian will find this Afrocentric nonsense quite ridiculous and can been debunked in one sentence as Ancient Egyptians spoke the Egyptian language which belongs to the Egyptian branch the Afro-Asiatic language family and Coptic is the latest stage of it while Nubians spoke and still speak Nubian language which belongs to the Nilo-Saharan language family, it is like the difference between English and Congolese language. Moreover, Ancient Egyptians considered Nubians their enemies and they depicted them sometimes as slaves and war captives and they were depicted in the Egyptian art in TOTALLY distinct and different way from the way Egyptians depicted themselves and in fact ancient Egyptians used very offensive racial and other slurs in describing them on the walls of temples. Secondly you debunked yourself by the links which you posted as it shows very clearly that Sudanese were and are totally different genetically and ethnically from Egyptians, the first study which is a mtDNA DNA study simply shows that there is Egyptian Eurasian incline and Egypt is the source of it which resulted in a minor Caucasoid Eurasian admixture in Sudanese people ( this comes from the fact that Sudan was occupied by Egypt in ancient and recent times some periods and the very recent Arab and Coptic migrations to Sudan in the last 200 years and this is the case in all other Sahel African countries bordering North African countries like Chad, Mali, etc who have also got some minor Caucasoid admixture because of other North African Maghreb migration to this area ) and that there is a Black Sub-Saharan Sudanese incline which resulted in a very tiny Black admixture in few Southern Egyptians ( This is because of trans-Saharan slave trade and Black immigrants to Egypt in the last 700 years ) and this is the case in all other North African countries where there is West African incline which resulted in very tiny Black admixture Maghrebi North Africans due to the trans-Saharan and recent Sub-Saharan migrations. A person who is 80% Black + 20% German is more related to a full German person than a person who is a 100% Black to the same full German person but the 80% + 20% German is still much more related to the 100% Black person. Sudanese and other fellow Sahel Africans have minor Caucasoid Component because of North African Caucasoid migration but, they are still so more much related to Sub-Saharan Africans than to North Africans and Middle Easterners. Sahel African area which extends from Sudan in the East and includes Chad, Mali, ... etc till Senegal in the West have been always the transition area between North Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa proper, Sudanese were always and still are similar culturally, racially, genetically,.. etc related to their fellow Sub-Saharan Sahel Africans and Horn Africans to a lesser extent. And the second study debunks it self by itself :) and I doubt that you have read a word in it, in fact I was planning to include this study in my reply but you have saved me time by posting it :) Thank you my friend!, the study simply shows the genome-wide data of all ethnic groups in Sudan and Horn Africans compared to Middle Eastern and North African populations genetic cluster of ( Palestinians, Egyptians, Druze, Bedouins, Mozabites ) and the difference is clear is very clear as hell, I will suggest that you wear your glasses and look at the genome-wide data of your own supposed evidence :) and even with out all this, the distinction is very clear for everyone :), Sudanese people obviously look much more similar to Sub-Saharans like neighboring Sahel Africans and others.

Returning again to the topic of ancient Egyptians, All ancient historians differentiated very well between Egyptians and Sudanese Nubians. Herodotus called the ancient Egyptians "Melanchores" which means ruddy skin which is the same word used by Homeros to describe Odysseus in the Odysee, of course you are not suggesting that Odysseus was Black :), are you ? In addition to that Herodotus said the ancient Egyptians are identical to the "Colchians" because like them they have ruddy skin and wavy/curly hair, guess who were the Colchians and where do they live now ? https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Georgia/@42.2331599,38.8822074,6z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x40440cd7e64f626b:0x4f907964122d4ac2 Caucasian Georgia, those are the Colchians, so good luck trying to prove Colchians were Black people somehow :) Herodotus in fact proved that the Egyptians were not black. Herodotus said in his book the Histories describing Nubians (pg. 92) “Ethiopians inhabit the country immediately above Elephantine, and one half of the island; the other half is inhabited by Egyptians. If Herodotus had meant to describe Egyptians as black Nubians, he’d have called them "Athiopes" which means burnt Black faces as he and all ancient authors called Nubians, Kushites and all Black people in general (Ethiopians) "Aithiopes" while they called Egyptians "Aegyptus" And since no Black Negroid ancient remains have ever been found in The Caucasus (Colchis) this should be a big hint to you Sherlock :) Herodotus as well in the same book ( pg.139-140 ) called the Kushites "Ethiopians" and referred to their capital city of Meroe. Manilius said in Astronomica 4.724 describing Ethiopians (Nubians and Kushites), Indians and Egyptians “The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it is a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone”. Arrian said in his book Indica 6.9“The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically”. Strabo said in his book Geography 15.1.13 “As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians”. Hippocrates recorded that Egyptians looked like the Scythians (Persians/Iranians) with the same ruddy complexion Xenpohanes said in (Hesoid, works and says, 527-8) “Black people resided not in Egypt but in a far land, by the fountain of the sun” and he said about lower Nubians who lived who was living near the Nubian/Egyptian borders "It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not. Now the inhabitants of the marches ( Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians".

I really find it quite amusing how amusing how Afro-centrists are trying to appropriate and black-wash Ancient Egypt by photo-shopping ( Afro-shopping ) pictures and publishing fake and wrong information. Ancient Egyptians were simply olive skinned Caucasoids of ancient Middle Eastern genetic stock as has been proven by genetics, archaeology, anthropology, art and other countless evidences. Egyptian art during some periods was stylized, symbolic and not realistic, it is just art and it is common to find different depictions with different colors for the same person. Colors used are also not realistic, but are often used specifically to denote things like gender or group affinity just like Roman or Greek art which showed sometimes Greeks or Romans in dark pigmentation although in reality they weren’t dark. By using Roman or Greek art like those pictures https://www.pinterest.com/pin/386324474270255809 https://www.pinterest.com/pin/406238828864982154/ , https://www.pinterest.com/pin/548383692098469068/ I can mislead others ( like what Afrocentrists do ) and prove that Ancient Romans or Greeks were dark or black although they definitely weren’t. This is how Ancient Egyptians depicted European Minoan Greeks https://imgur.com/a/qGOvQ . In Ancient Egyptian art, Colors used to depict Egyptians were used are to denote things like gender or group affinity Egyptian males for example were drawn red which refers to the fertile land, while all women in classic Egyptian art are yellow or white. Also compare the size of the fingers and eyes to the body. Funny enough, some other nationalities had their own color and didn't have this gender-color division that Egyptians have in their art while some others had it like Roman Etruscans https://www.pinterest.com/pin/399413060675367161/ All the ancient Egyptian mummies were classified as Caucasoid and some mummies even have red and blonde hair. All Egyptian mummies were classified as Caucasoid and have straight or wavy hair except one mummy which is of The Nubian Fan Bearer Maiherpri which has totally different different and distinct features as well as woolly hair which shows clearly the clear distiniction between Nubians and Egyptians. Nubians are quite proud of their culture and they are totally aware that you are totally distinct culturally, racially , ... etc from ancient Egyptian and they don't embarrass themselves by trying to link themselves to people whom they were and are totally different from. I wonder why one of them would like to be link to ancient Egyptians who described them sometimes in very offensive ways as the inscription of the Egyptian Prince Amenim, which is carved into the stone in the doorway of his cliff-tomb in Benihasin, describes the lands of Black Nubians and Kush as "vile." It reads as follows: "I passed Kush sailing southward,... then his majesty returned in safety having overthrown his enemies in KUSH THE VILE." or this inscription of The first Semneh stela recounting the subjugation of Nubia by Sesostris III reads as follows: "Southern boundary, made in the year 8, under the majesty of the king of Upper and Lower Egypt, Sesostris III,… in order to prevent that any Black Nubian should cross it, by water or by land, with a ship, or any herds of the Black Nubians; except a Nubian who shall come to do trading in Iken, or with a commission. Every good thing shall be done with them but without allowing a ship of the Blacks to pass by Heh, going down stream, forever" and there are many other inscriptions which are way much more offensive so I preferred not to mention it it. I think anyone tries to link himself to a someones who described his people in this way is obviously having self-hate problems.

Regarding the definition of North Africa by US Census which you are the one suggested using it, Come on my friend !, are you still lying to yourself ??. Sudan isn't included in North Africa by US Census and I have added the citations which shows this very clearly and you are quite aware of this fact and I am ready to provide tons of more citations if you want. Sudan was and still is totally different racially, culturally, genetically, historically and in every aspect from all North African countries plus even geographically Sudan isn't located in North Africa. It is common sense my friend, North Africa from the name itself means the countries which is located in the North and Sudan is clearly not located in Northern part of the African continent. Sudan is like Chad, Mali, Niger which all share northern borders with North African countries like Libya and Algeria. North Africa is simply the Mediterranean countries which is located in the Northernmost of the continent, Sudan isn't even considered part of North Africa politically by most such as World Bank By the way,Bank, US Census, African Union itself, FAO, Population Reference Bureau, WTO and I can list tons of other world organizations if you want and in fact I am pretty sure that you are aware of this fact. By the way, Mohammed Ali was an Egyptian of Albanian origin who has led the Egyptian army to occupy Sudan ( which didn't welcome Egyptians at all and Sudanese people till today celebrate their independence day from Egypt), all Levant, most of Arabian peninsula and parts of Greece. He is just like Napoleon Bonaparte who was French of Italian Corsican origin and has led the French army and had many victories all over all the Mediterranean and the World or such as Queen Elizabeth of England who is of German origins, Mohammed Ali didn't invade Egypt, he was an Egyptian of Albanian origin who came to power by Egyptian people and the Egyptian Naqib of Ashraf Omar Makram who put him in power and actually Mohammed Ali refused in the beginning then he accepted after Omar Makram insisted and in fact he was one of the biggest enemies of the Ottomans and he was about to occupy the capital of the Ottoman Empire without the eventual intervention of Great Britain and European countries.

The most hilarious thing is the last sentence of your paragraph which itself is a pure example of history and cultural appropriation, just like the rest of your paragraph :). You want me to include Nuba people who live in far southern part of Republic of Sudan who has nothing to do racially, culturally or even geographically with North Africa, Come on my friend !! a West African Nigerian have better chance passing in North Africa ( even geographically ) than a Nuba person :). Bejas have nothing to do with North Africa as the vast majority of Bejas are Cushitic people who speak Cushitic language related to East Africans and the vast majority of Bejas live in Eritrea, Sudan, Ethiopia and they are a very tiny minority ( few thousands ) in Hala'ib Triangle which is occupied and administered by Egypt and claimed by Sudan and your media is attacking Egypt 24/7 for occupying it :). Your Sudanese media is attacking Egypt 24/7 as well as on internet since long time ago ( just like when you has insulted me before :) ) and you are here trying to link yourself and appropriate history of Egyptians and other North Africans whom you were and are totally different from in every aspect :). Love yourself my friend and your brothers in Sudan, South Sudan and other Sahel African countries. Why are ignoring your fellow people in Southern, Eastern, Central and Western parts of your country where the vast majority of your people live and capital is located, why are you ignoring fellow closely related Sahel Africans?!!, the Sudanese media is always complaining about the neglecting and racism of all Arab world in MENA area against Sudan and saying that Sudanese people should strength their relationships with their fellow Sub-Saharan Africans where Sudan shares ethnic and cultural ties, while on the contrary some Sudanese are racist towards their fellow Sudanese people which resulted in many unreasonable civil wars between the same Sudanese people. Nubians were and are totally different racially, culturally, linguistically, historically,..etc from all North Africans, Nubians are a Nilo-Saharan people who spoke and still speak Nilo-Saharan language related to Toubou people in Chad and far southernmost of Libya as well as Kunama people and other Nilo-Saharans, Nubians were and are centered in Sudan where the vast majority of them live and they are very tiny Nubian minority in far southernmost of Egypt ( 0.002 % ), there are also Nubian minorities in Kenya and Uganda. Moreover, are you lying to yourself again?? Sudan isn't included in the definition of Middle East in either the English page or Arabic page or any other Misplaced Pages pages in any other language, I would suggest that you make a Misplaced Pages page in Nubian language and list Sudan in the Middle East if that will make you feel better my friend :). Finally, Misplaced Pages is clearly not the right place for spreading Afrocentric nonsense and cultural appropriation but, you can freely spread this nonsense on the Afrocentric sites and forums if that will make you feel better :). My 35 references are listed in below in the references section in sequence from 5-39. Thank you Ryanoo (talk) 08:51, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

TL;DR. For me, North Africa is the Maghreb, including Western Sahara, and Egypt. Egypt also falls in The Middle East. The discussion above will get nowhere. -Roxy, Zalophus californianus. barcus 18:45, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Hello Ryanoo and everyone, I hope that with this discussion we can come to consensus not arguing with no results. Also, I am not trying to push a Afrocentric view that Egypt or Sudan was like the west and central Africans Negroid who were brought to America as slaves. Also, I am not excluding the fact that there was and still is people who have some negroid futures in Egypt and Sudan, but they do not look like most west or central Africans even though they have some negroid futures. Moreover, I want to clarify the distinction between skin color and Race. Race as defined by the U.S Census has minimally to do with skin color and more to do with Geography, history, and lineage. For example, you can have someone from the MENA region who is clearly dark brown or black in skin color, and he or she would be considered white by the U.S Census. Also, you can have someone who is clearly fair skin, but would be considered racially Black because he or she descends from slaves (with this statement I'm not trying to look down upon people from west or central Africa, nor the slaves or descendants of slaves in America, I'm just clarifying the definition for everyone). So in term of the Racial classification of white by the U.S Census it is defined as anyone who descend from the original people of Europe, Middle East, and North Africa, keeping with the U.S Census definition Sudan is in North Africa, as well as, Mauritanian and Western Sahara. here for you the wiki page to see https://en.wikipedia.org/North_Africans_in_the_United_States. If you read the study in regard to the migration it shows that there has been a migration between what is considered Egypt now and what is considered Sudan since ancient times. Also, keep in mind the Sudan including South Sudan is part of both Sub-Sahara Africa (South Sudan) and North Africa(Northern Sudan) so some studies for ageing population and such will include it with Sub-Sahara Africa or North Africa Just depend on the author of the study and what they want to do. Here is the full quote of Herodotus in his book The Histories“For the fact is as I soon came to realise myself, and then heard from others later, that the Colchians are obviously Egyptian. When the notion occurred to me, I asked both the Colchians and the Egyptians about it, and found that the Colchians had better recall of the Egyptians than the Egyptians did of them. Some Egyptians said that they thought the Colchians originated with Sesostris’ army, but I myself guessed their Egyptian origin not only because the Colchians are dark-skinned and curly-haired (which does not count for much by itself , because these features are common in others too) but more importantly because Colchians, Egyptians and Ethiopians are the only peoples in the world who practise circumcision and who have always done so.Mameab1989 (talk) 04:08, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

You will find translations where ‘black skinned and woolly haired’ are used, but the term melanchroes, which was translated to mean black in some versions, was used to describe any skin tone from bronzed to black, and through usage translates as ‘dark’. As is seen in this piece of text from Homer’s Odyssey.

With this, Athena touched him with her golden wand. A well-washed cloak and a tunic she first of all cast about his breast, and she increased his stature and his youthful bloom. Once more he grew dark of color , and his cheeks filled out, and dark grew the beard about his chin.Mameab1989 (talk) 04:08, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Xenpohanes (Hesoid, works and says, 527-8) the men of Egypt are mostly brown and black with a skinny desiccated look. The best description of the most common Egyptians skin tone complexion I think we can all agree upon is the one given to us by Prophet Muhammed(PBUH) in his description of Moses(PBUH) in-which He(PBUH) said, "وَرَأَيْتُ مُوسَى أَسْحَمَ آدَم “I saw Musa (Moses) and he was a black-skinned man.”Mameab1989 (talk) 04:08, 18 January 2018 (UTC) Musnad Imam Ahmed Hadith # 3365. Here is a reference if you can read Arabic https://fatwa.islamweb.net/fatwa/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=104555 أَمَّا مُوسَى فَرَجُلٌ آدَمُ جَعْد “As for Musa/Moses, he is a black-skinned man with very curly hair.” If Moses(PBUH), had a skin color or physical futures different than egyptians indicated he was part of the children of Israel Pharaoh would have killed him. Mameab1989 (talk) 04:08, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

In-regard to the person who said, "Egyptian art during some periods was stylized, symbolic and not realistic", you can take that approach to some art work, but the majority of Egyptian art is very realistic take for example this https://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Egyptian_races.jpg, the painting display the pheno-typical color and physical characteristic of Libyan, Nuba, a Syrian, and an Egyptian. The picture classifying these people hold true till this day for the most part.

To the person who said Muhammed Ali is Egyptian here https://en.wikipedia.org/Muhammad_Ali_of_Egypt read it for your self he was full blooded Albanian from Korçë, Albania.

Egyptian is not an ethnicity people, it just indicate that you are a person living in the land at that time. For example, when you go to Morocco you call the person Moroccan, Algeria you call the person Algerian, Saudi Arabia you call the person Saudi, and you go to Egypt you call the person Egyptian. Does that indicate ethnicity Nooooo the guy in Morocco could be Arab, Berber, or Sahrawi. Mameab1989 (talk) 04:08, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

You have to realize that Nubian is not a one term fit all. there is a difference between Nubian's in central Sudan where Kush developed and Nubian's in Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan before the 3rd cataract. They are all Nubians but there was differences with Nubians below the 3rd cataract( Central Sudan) had some Negroid futures than Caucasoid, while the Nubians from the 3rd cataract and up had more Caucasoid futures than Negroid. Similar to the differences between Arab tribes at the end they are all still Arabs. Also, Weather it is Ancient time or now, whenever a new neighboring state develop there is always some bad language exchanged between both sides. Look at the language that is exchanged sometime between Morocco and Algeria, or Mexico and the U.S now, or Egypt and Sudan, or Ukraine and Russia, do you expect for a new state to develop and work to occur without name calling? even your own cousin if they piss you off you would tell them off. Kush and Egypt are no different. As Nubian we are very proud of our Ethnicity and history and we see our self as the people who build the ancient Civilization of Nubia and the pharaonic civilization. Ethnically we are Nubian and we are very proud of it and we make it clear to you and other people and studies have shown it that we played a major role in developing both civilizations. Nationally Some of us are citizens of Egyptian, Sudanese, or other countries. So Egyptian as a Nationality and not Ethnicity apply to some of us. Personally I carry Arab and Nubian blood and Proud of both of them, and happy. As far as the person saying that Nubian are not a large portion of Egypt take your car and drive through Luxor and Aswan. Also, you find a Nubian minority in Tanzania, Kenya, and Uganda because the kingdom of Makuria once included all those territory and many Muslim Nubian traveled to these land and settled to spread the religion. Mameab1989 (talk) 04:08, 18 January 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mameab1989 (talk • contribs) 03:48, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply Mr.Mameab1989/172.78.99.127. Again you are still continuing lying to yourself but this time with a straight face :) , in fact there is no even one word true in what you said and I have debunked all this nonsense in my previous reply but It seems that you didn't read it or that you act like you didn't read it :). The term "melanchroes" means ruddy and wavy hair and it is the same word Homeros used to to describe Odysseus in the Odysee, of course you are not suggesting that Odysseus was Black :), are you ? In addition to that Herodotus said the ancient Egyptians are identical to the "Colchians" because like them they have ruddy skin and wavy/curly hair, guess who were the Colchians and where do they live now ? https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Georgia/@42.2331599,38.8822074,6z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x40440cd7e64f626b:0x4f907964122d4ac2 Caucasian Georgia, those are the Colchians, so good luck trying to prove Colchians were Black people somehow :) Herodotus in fact proved that the Egyptians were not black. Herodotus said in his book the Histories describing Nubians (pg. 92) “Ethiopians inhabit the country immediately above Elephantine, and one half of the island; the other half is inhabited by Egyptians. If Herodotus had meant to describe Egyptians as black Nubians, he’d have called them "Athiopes" which means burnt Black faces as he and all ancient authors called Nubians, Kushites and all Black people in general (Ethiopians) "Aithiopes" while they called Egyptians "Aegyptus" And since no Black Negroid ancient remains have ever been found in The Caucasus (Colchis) this should be a big hint to you Sherlock :). Xenpohanes didn't say what you said at all, again you are lying to yourself :), It seems that you enjoy that but unfortunately for you spreading Afrocentric nonsense isn't allowed in Misplaced Pages. In fact Xenpohanes differiated very well between Egyptians and Blacks ( Nubians and Kushites ), Xenpohanessaid in (Hesoid, works and says, 527-8) “Black people resided not in Egypt but in a far land, by the fountain of the sun” and he said about lower Nubians who lived who was living near the Nubian/Egyptian borders "It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not. Now the inhabitants of the marches ( Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians". All ancient historians differentiated very well between Egyptians and Blacks ( Nubians and Kushites ) as I have mentioned in my previous reply and you are quite aware of this fact :). And what you said about the best description is the funniest lie ever of all what you said :) I like they way you make up fake stories and believe it :). Prophet Mohammed here didn't say anything about Egyptians and you know this very well, he is talking about prophet Moses who was an Israelite Hebrew, What does this have to do with Egyptians ????!! I have never seen someone lying with a straight face like this!!!, It seems that you are now saying that ancient Hebrews were Black my Afro-centrist friend LOL, next time you will say that Vikings were Black :). In fact prophet Mohammed (PBUH) used the same word to describe Jesus as well as many Noble Arabs tribes, are you suggesting that Jesus and Arabs were Black ??!! :) The word "أدم" in this narration “أَمَّا مُوسَى فَرَجُلٌ آدَمُ", which is said to describe Prophet Moses who was an Israelite Hebrew doesn't mean that prophet Moses was Black, the word " أدم " means red or dark not Black. Moreover, This is a just narration which was attributed to prophet Mohamed (PBUH) but he might not have said it. . Moreover, you said look at the language which exchange between Egypt and Sudan!!!, which exchange are you talking about?!! again you are lying to yourself with a straight face. Sudanese Nubians spoke and still speak Nubian language which belongs to the Nilo-Saharan language family which is totally different from Afro-Asiatic Middle Eastern languages like ancient Egyptian language or Arabic, it is like the different between English and Congolese.

Regarding the link of picture which you called four races, the Egyptian is depicted in a totally different way and with totally different features from the Black Nubian which debunks your nonsense and by the way the picture you posted isn't the original picture. This is another picture where Egyptian and Levantine men are depicted with same color and features while the Nubians is depicted in totally different way and with totally different features https://imgur.com/a/dobv4. Moreover, the depiction of Egyptian in the picture which you referred to is heavily stylized, as I have mentioned Egyptian males were drawn red which refers to the fertile land, while all women in classic Egyptian art are yellow or white so if the same pictures was for women, the Egyptian woman would be depicted in white. It is just art and it is common to find different depictions with different colors for the same person. Colors used are also not realistic, but are often used specifically to denote things like gender or group affinity just like Greek Minoans or Roman Etruscans, are you suggesting that Greek Minaonas and Roman Etruscans are BLack?!!!. Roman or Greek art showed sometimes Greeks or Romans in dark pigmentation although in reality they weren’t dark. By using Roman or Greek art like those pictures https://www.pinterest.com/pin/386324474270255809 https://www.pinterest.com/pin/406238828864982154/ , https://www.pinterest.com/pin/548383692098469068/ I can mislead others ( like what Afrocentrists do ) and prove that Ancient Romans or Greeks were dark or black although they definitely weren’t. This is how Ancient Egyptians depicted European Minoan Greeks https://imgur.com/a/qGOvQ . In Ancient Egyptian art, Colors used to depict Egyptians were used are to denote things like gender or group affinity Egyptian males for example were drawn red which refers to the fertile land, while all women in classic Egyptian art are yellow or white. Also compare the size of the fingers and eyes to the body. Funny enough, some other nationalities had their own color and didn't have this gender-color division that Egyptians have in their art while some others had it like Roman Etruscans https://www.pinterest.com/pin/399413060675367161/ All the ancient Egyptian mummies were classified as Caucasoid and some mummies even have red and blonde hair. All Egyptian mummies were classified as Caucasoid and have straight or wavy hair except one mummy which is of The Nubian Fan Bearer Maiherpri which has totally different different and distinct features as well as woolly hair which shows clearly the clear distiniction between Nubians and Egyptians.

DNA has put an end to your Afrocentric dreams :). The peer reviewed studies done on Ancient Egyptian mummies shows clearly that ancient Egyptians cluster with Bronze age West Asian Levantines and that modern Egyptians ( the descendants of ancient Egyptians ) in addition to their overwhelmingly Ancient Middle Eastern DNA, some of them have received 0~8% Sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times. The DNA samples covers a very huge time frame from the 18th dynasty ( THE GOLDEN ERA of Egypt ) all the way till the Roman era which is around 2000 years !! and what is interesting is that despite the huge time frame, all samples are genetically very homogeneous and show perfect continuity and they have no any Greek , Roman or Persian DNA which means that so-called invasions had no any effect on the genetic pool of ancient Egyptians plus Levant and Mesopotamia were invaded much more than Egypt, the cruel Mongols invaded Iraq yet modern Iraqis don’t look Mongolian or have Mongolian DNA.

Regarding Mohammad Ali, It seems that you haven't read one word from what I said about him. As I mentioned before Mohammed Ali was an Egyptian of Albanian origin who has led the Egyptian army to occupy Sudan ( which didn't welcome Egyptians at all and Sudanese people till today celebrate their independence day from Egypt), all Levant, most of Arabian peninsula and parts of Greece. He is just like Napoleon Bonaparte who was French of Italian Corsican origin and has led the French army and had many victories all over all the Mediterranean and the World or such as Queen Elizabeth of England who is of German origins, Mohammed Ali didn't invade Egypt, he was an Egyptian of Albanian origin who came to power by Egyptian people and the Egyptian Naqib of Ashraf Omar Makram who put him in power and actually Mohammed Ali refused in the beginning then he accepted after Omar Makram insisted and in fact he was one of the biggest enemies of the Ottomans and he was about to occupy the capital of the Ottoman Empire without the eventual intervention of Great Britain and European countries.

Regarding the definition of North Africa by US Census which you are the one suggested using it, Come on my friend !, again you still lying to yourself with a straight face ??. Sudan isn't included in North Africa at all by US Census and I have added the citations which shows this very clearly and you are quite aware of this fact and I am ready to provide tons of more citations if you want. Sudan was and still is totally different racially, culturally, genetically, historically and in every aspect from all North African countries plus even geographically Sudan isn't located in North Africa. It is common sense my friend, North Africa from the name itself means the countries which is located in the North and Sudan is clearly not located in Northern part of the African continent. Sudan is like Chad, Mali, Niger which all share northern borders with North African countries like Libya and Algeria. North Africa is simply the Mediterranean countries which is located in the Northernmost of the continent, Sudan isn't even considered part of North Africa politically by most such as World Bank By the way,Bank, US Census, African Union itself, FAO, Population Reference Bureau, WTO and I can list tons of other world organizations if you want and in fact I am pretty sure that you are aware of this fact.

Nubians were and are Sudanese Black Sub-Saharan Africans who have spoke and still speak language belonging to totally different language family ( Nilo-Saharan ) like the languages of Nuba people and other Sub-Saharan Africans, Nubians still practice till today pure Sub-Saharan customs such as tribal scarification https://imgur.com/a/TDVYW.Again . Again love yourself, your Sudanese people and your Sub-Saharan brothers and stop trying to associate yourself with people whom you were and are totally different from in every aspect. As I said before, Misplaced Pages is clearly not the right place for spreading Afrocentric nonsense and cultural appropriation but, you can freely spread this nonsense on the Afrocentric sites and forums if that will make you feel better :). Thank you.Ryanoo (talk) 08:35, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Ryanoo you clearly haven't read the paper in-regard to migration or my post. If you want to take the approach that the art is symbolic you can do that, but you have to apply across the board that all the pictures you brought about the color of Greeks, Nubian, and Levant are symbolic as well. Ancient Egyptian art, like Greeks and Romans have some work which is symbolic while other are very accurate and realistic. Also, there are very dark brown to light brown Greeks, Italian, and Spaniards. Read Giuseppe Sergi book The Mediterranean Race (1901). Mameab1989 (talk) 18:50, 18 January 2018 (UTC) The painting I posted is accurate here is another one https://i.ytimg.com/vi/rkp4I7SESeY/hqdefault.jpg, and here battle of megiddo https://i.ytimg.com/vi/FOq4hY7B1nM/maxresdefault.jpg is this also, symbolic to you?

Sudan including both North and South Sudan have part in North Africa(North Sudan) and part in Sub-Sahara Africa(South Sudan), so some studies include it in North Africa, and other in Sub-Sahara Africa and I recognize that. As far as the U.S Census goes Sudan is part of MENA. The link you gave is for the Summary meeting to propose a new racial Category in the Census in 2020 for Arabs as MENA region instead of white nothing in it is binding.Mameab1989 (talk) 18:50, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, In term of color there was and still is many Arabs who are Black in skin color, dark brown, and red read the description of Ali(RA) the Nephew of the Prophet(PBUH), or Uthman(RA), or Umar(RA). Uthman(RA), and Ali(RA) were black in skin color similar to Bilal(RA). The Arabs would call the people with skin complexion like the Romans, Greeks, and Persian as Abhat(Pale) read the description of Ibn Abbas(RA) of the Romans, and the other companions. Mameab1989 (talk) 18:50, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

The narration given are Authentic Narration of Prophet Muhammed(PBUH), which has no falsehood. So there is no he may or he may not have said it. Every historian, Anthropologist, geneticist, you, or anyone on this earth could lie, but the Prophet(PBUH) never lies, and his words are the absolute truth period. His words are an authentic Narration, and all the Muslim World old and new agree that those words are authentic and spoken by Prophet Muhammed(PBUH). You can lie to yourself and think everything is symbolic, but go ask any scholar and they would tell you that this is an Authentic Hadith and is taken literally. Also, that the skin complexion, and physical traits of Moses(PBUH) are true. Mameab1989 (talk) 18:50, 18 January 2018 (UTC) I would believe the Prophet(PBUH) over my mother, father, all the scholars of this world, and all the people of this earth from the time of Adam(PBUH) till the day of Judgement. Mameab1989 (talk) 18:50, 18 January 2018 (UTC) All these description is from ahl al-sunnah wa al-jammah and all are Authentic.

I mention Moses(PBUH) because Pharaoh and his wife adopted him as a son, and Pharaoh at the time was killing all the male children of banu Israel because he saw a dream that a man would rise from the children of Israel who would destroy his rule. So if Moses(PBUH) had any physical futures or skin color that would indicate he was a child of the children of Israel Pharaoh would have killed him. Thus, you see the close physical relationship in skin complexion and hair texture of the Children of Israel and Ancient Egyptians. Mameab1989 (talk) 18:50, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Also, Just to point out your own bias the World bank definition include Djibouti and Malta in North Africa why are you not adding them as part of North Africa? You have an agenda and a bias that is glaring. Mameab1989 (talk) 18:59, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

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Past and Future Population (Exclude Western Sahara)

• Main article: List of countries by past and future population
• Main article: List of countries by future population (United Nations, medium fertility variant)
• List of countries by past and future population provide 1950, 2000 and 2050 population while List of countries by future population (United Nations, medium fertility variant) provide 2100 population.

Rank	Country	Area	1950	2000	2050	2100
1	Egypt	1,001,450	21,198,000	65,159,000	137,873,000	200,802,000
2	Algeria	2,381,740	8,893,000	30,639,000	55,445,000	61,060,000
3	Morocco	446,550	9,344,000	28,114,000	42,027,000	40,888,000
4	Tunisia	163,610	3,518,000	9,508,000	12,181,000	12,494,000
5	Libya	1,759,540	962,000	5,025,000	8,971,000	8,144,000
Total		5,752,890	43,915,000	138,445,000	256,497,000	323,388,000

Land and Water Area (Include Western Sahara)

• Main article: Exclusive economic zone

This list includes dependent territories within their sovereign states (including uninhabited territories), but does not include claims on Antarctica. EEZ+TIA is exclusive economic zone (EEZ) plus total internal area (TIA) which includes land and internal waters.

Rank	Country	Area	EEZ	Shelf	EEZ+TIA
1	Algeria	2,381,740	126,353	9,985	2,508,094
2	Libya	1,759,540	351,589	64,763	2,111,129
3	Egypt	1,001,450	263,451	61,591	1,265,451
4	Morocco	710,850	575,230	115,157	1,287,780
5	Tunisia	163,610	101,857	67,126	265,467
Total		6,018,890	1,418,480	318,622	7,437,921

• Comment Western Sahara shouldn't be inlcuded as a part of Morocco. Only Morocco and the United States recognise Western Sahara as a part of Morocco. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:10, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Regarding this page

Irrelevant, but why is all this text magenta? PrussianOwl (talk) 20:46, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Fixed. Don't know what caused it, but I archived the post where it started, and viola. (a large violin) -Roxy, in the middle. wooF 05:52, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Defining North Africa and adding relevant information

The creation of this discussion is directed at user @Ryanoo: who consistently reverted this article back to its former poorly sourced state over a mapping dispute. User @Ryanoo also said the information I added to the page (academic journals, published books and academic webpages) were “totally wrong” without countering my information with edits of equally verifiable sourcing.

The map I added was the orthographic map that is in common use throughout Misplaced Pages’s available languages. In dark green, the mao features Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco and the Western Sahara. In lime green (to signify the Sahel) Mauritania, Mali, Niger and Chad are featured. As the article formerly conceded before Ryanoo’s biased changes (cited a government website of the United States, an online dictionary) there are contentions around what defines North Africa.

I fail to see how a map that features the Sahel in a different colour with countries that are apart of the Maghreb (Mauritania) and were once apart of Egypt, sharing the same bio climatic aridity (Sudan) violates the statement.

In good faith, I added reasons why the Sahel were vital to how Arab geographers like Abdelrahman es Saadi, Ibn Khaldun, Ibn Battuta and 19th century explorers mapped the region as they did: trans-Saharan trade routes, Islam and Ottoman expansionism. Previous versions of the article will show that I did note a difference between North Africa and the Sahel. Additionally, I cited an academic journal to explain why North Africa is associated by some with West Asia. The article once said that it was “culturally” the same as well as other things without saying that “MENA/WANA” are geopolitical regions.

I am trying to facilitate a civil discussion about the content of this page so both myself and Ryanoo can move forward and that English proficient Misplaced Pages users can benefit from a well sourced article.

Edit:

I'm editing this page again because I am new to Misplaced Pages and didn't know I needed to sign the post and how to format my references.

References are the following:

Itaren (talk) 05:44, 3 November 2018 (UTC) Itaren (talk) 06:13, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Would editors please note that it is not wikipedia's role to define North Africa, but to report what reliable sources say. I don't believe there is one correct answer, and there is certainly no higher authority on the subject to turn to. -Roxy, in the middle. wooF 06:25, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you @Roxy the dog: ! In my defence, I added to the Misplaced Pages article what a reliable source had to say (An atlas of the Sahara-Sahel source) about the issue. I thought the quotation was vital to the article. User Ryanoo did not contribute in a way that was civil, reliable or verifiable to the article. This isn't meant to be a jab at them, but, is simply what my impression was during our disagreement over the page. Not everyone you disagree with is a sockpuppet! Itaren (talk) 06:13, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

@Itaren First of all, you didn't include any sources which shows that Sahel African countries are part of North Africa and your sources has nothing at all to do with what you claim. Secondly, Neither North Africans nor anyone on this planet nor Sahel African themselves considers Sahel to be part of North Africa, you are simply just desperately trying to push some biased nonsense which exists only in your imagination!!!. Sahel is clearly not located in North Africa, It is geographically a transition zone between North Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa and the people living there are totally different from North Africans in every aspect and Sahel Africans themselves are quite aware of this fact. North Africa is clear as the name itself, It is simply the countries located in the northernmost of the African continent, It isn't the whole African continent!!! Ryanoo (talk) 13:56, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Almost all the world organizations such as the World Bank, US Census, African Union itself, FAO, Population Reference Bureau, WTO and I can list tons of other world organizations if you want consider North Africa to be only the Mediterranean countries located in the extreme northernmost of the continent and I have never came across any organization which consider Sahel as part of North Africa!! and If you did, so please provide your sources. Thirdly, you turned the page from North Africa page to Sahel Africa, You deleted so much information very related to the topic and added so much irrelevant information, It seems that you have mistaken the North Africa page for African Sahel!!!! Ryanoo (talk) 13:59, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Moreover, Sudan was never one country with Egypt, neither do Chad with Libya nor Mali with Algeria, the aforementioned countries were just occupied by North African countries during some periods of time, they were mere colonies and the local Sahel didn't welcome the North African colonizers at all such as Sudan which still celebrates their independence day from Egypt till today. Britain have occupied many countries, but that won't make those countries part of Britain or make the people there British. For instance there is mutual historical influence between Morocco and Spain but that won't make Spain a North African country or vice versa. Should we consider Morocco a South European country because it has historic links with the Iberian peninsula??!. If you feel that there is a North African influence on the Sahel African which had been colonized during some periods by North Africans, then the right place to talk about this is African Sahel page. Ryanoo (talk) 13:43, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

My References:

13:43, 3 November 2018 (UTC)Ryanoo (talk)

You seem to be very angry about this topic @Ryanoo:. I would like to remind you that the AU, WTO and so on see the world through geopolitical regions and not those that are true to geographic accuracy alone. My sources prove me plenty enough, you simply bothered not to read them -- that much is abundantly clear. If you did, you wouldn't have said something as objectively false as Sudan not being a part of Egypt during the classical period of imperialism. Again, please research the Berlin conference. You can also consult multiple academic journals. I would also like to, since we are in part discussing colonization, direct you to read up on Spanish North Africa, Mauritania and the Western Sahara were its former territories. That one is self-evident. As I said in the editing history of the article, I added a section on the Sahel because trading with countries located between the Sahara and the Sahel were instrumental in how Arab geographers and 19th century European scholars mapped out the area hence influencing how we see North Africa today. States located in the Sahel have also been exhaustively talked about on this talk page, that should tell you that it is important enough to at least mention in the article. I also never once said that there was any sort of population replacement in North Africa. You are putting words into my mouth to stir up some sort of impassioned response from me on this topic because you are frustrated that no academic source can attest to your claims.

The reason why I removed such a significant portion of the first part of the article was because it was unsourced. I really feel like I'm continuing to repeat myself with you. I am not changing the page from a North African one to a Sahelian one. No, we should not consider Sahel apart of North Africa -- if you read my article in earnest you would have seen that I wrote: "The distinction between North Africa, the Sahel and the rest of the continent is as follows:" and added the quotation from "An atlas of the Sahara-Sahel : geography, economics and security" which was published in a journal. All I did was add verifiable references crucial to understanding the borders of what is "North Africa" in the form of states that are conducive with the bio-climactic and historical information readable from my sources. If this idea is too outlandish for you to be based in fact, you might have to assess your own biases that may be preventing you from engaging in a good-faith discussion. As I informed you, I intend on letting Misplaced Pages's Administrators know about all this so they can determine what is permissible in the article per Wiki's rules. If they decide my information is credible, I may as that they protect the page as I'm not sure about how you might react given your past insults directed at me.

Itaren (talk) 14:38, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

@Itaren LOL you are clearly the angry one here, you are angry that you even don't know even what you talking about:). Again you are talking pure nonsense, It seems that you didn't bother to read even one word from your sources which neither has anything AT ALL to do with your claims nor the topic of the page!!!, as I said before you just trying to push some very biased nonsense which exists only in your imagination by making fake propaganda, again it is North Africa page not African Sahel. Now after I refuted your claims, you are trying to insult, attack me personally and threaten me as expected :). Ryanoo (talk) 15:39, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately for you I am Egyptian and I know my country and region history very well, It seems that you really know nothing at all of what you are talking about. Berlin conference resulted in forcing Mohammed Ali of Egypt to give up his colonies in the Arabian Peninsula, Levant, Crete and Greece and just keep the colonies of Palestinian Gaza, part of Libya and Sudan. Sudan was a mere colony which was invaded by Egyptians in 1820, go research the Egyptian conquest of Sudan (1820–1824). The Egyptian army during that era occupied all Levant, parts of Greece, most of Arabian peninsula, Sudan ( which didn't welcome Egyptians at all and made many revolutions) and was was about to occupy the capital of the Ottoman Empire without the eventual intervention of Great Britain and European countries ( Berlin Conference which forced Mohammed Ali of Egypt to give up most of the colonies) but that wouldn't make any of the countries Egyptian or part of Egypt during that era. As for your reference to geography, I am really speechless :) I would like you to bring the world map and check which countries are located in the northernmost of the African continent :), it is simple as that, in fact every sentence you say contradict the other :). Again, If you feel that there is North African influence on the Sahel African which had been colonized during some periods by North Africans, then the right place to talk about this is African Sahel page not here. Anyway, I am going to file a sock-puppetry report against you today and the decision is entirely up to Misplaced Pages administration, In fact I was planning to report you for sock-puppetry yesterday, but unfortunately, I didn't have time. Ryanoo (talk) 15:16, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

2

Nothing about your Egyptian heritage @Ryanoo: is unfortunate for me. I'm Mauritanian, however, I did not bring it up as it is irrelevant to the Misplaced Pages article itself. See? I withheld a personal / empirical "fact," this is how discussion and the construction of articles should go. I'm not afraid of investigation, as I have nothing at all to hide about my activity. I stand by my past comments on the article edits and here in the "talk" section. You, however, were warned by myself and @Roxy the dog: to refrain from insults, misusing wikipedia's rules around vandalism and what you claim to be sock puppetry. I may not be knowledgable enough about all of Misplaced Pages's fine print but even I am aware that sources must be verifiable and it's not enough to ramble on about information you cannot back up credibly. Since you don't have the intention of remaining civil with me, I refuse to engage in anymore conversation with you on this topic.

Edit: I'm open to discussing this with any one else interested! I really enjoy good faith historical and geographic discussion. As for the above user Ryanoo's claim that the Sahel was "colonized" by North Africa (poor use of the term colonization as it refers particularly to the economic exploitation of peripheral lands for the benefit of a typically more "developed" economy, when the relationship I outlined was trade partnership) -- it's unsubstantiated which you can see in my references yourself. I'm also not trying to detract from the "North Africa" topic as this user accused but explaining who, when, and how the bounds of North Africa were created which so happen to coincide with the Sahel (multiple dynasties, trade routes, cultural exchange, ethnic groups, Ottoman occupation). North Africa on wiki seems to be contentious but we are here to voice our verifiable points and meet each other halfway for the benefit of English Wiki users worldwide. If anyone wants to work on a well sourced map from a blank page (remove Chad and Niger from the orthographic map) that would also be welcome :)

Itaren (talk) 17:05, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. However, other sources also include the Sudan in East Africa and/or sub-Saharan Africa. Western Sahara is sometimes included in West Africa. Ceuta, Melilla, the Plazas de soberanía, and the Autonomous Regions of Portugal are parts of North Africa, but the Canary Islands are a part of West Africa. A few Italian offshore islands (Pantelleria and the Pelagie Islands) are also geographically parts of North Africa. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:12, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 6 November 2018

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I want the current version to be reverted to the previous version . The user Itaren was disruptively editing the page and was refusing to engage in the talk page, and finally after he did and I refuted his claims he refused to continue the discussion on the talk page and came to attack and threaten me on my page. Later, he disruptively edited the page again after he refused to continue the discussion on the talk page and reach a consensus, then he quickly requested for page protection which that his edits are not neutral and are of bad faith!!. Ironically, I have requested protecting the page before him and my request was refused for this reason . This user has made fake propaganda from nothing. He didn't include any sources which shows that Sahel African countries are part of North Africa and his sources has nothing at all to do with what he claims. Almost all the world organizations such as the World Bank, US Census, African Union itself, FAO, Population Reference Bureau, WTO and I can list tons of other world organizations if you want consider North Africa to be only the Mediterranean countries located in the extreme northernmost of the continent. Moreover, he turned the page from North Africa page to Sahel Africa, ho deleted so much information very related to the topic and added so much irrelevant information!!! He simply turned the page from North Africa to Sahel Africa!!!. Ryanoo (talk) 23:01, 6 November 2018 (UTC) Ryanoo (talk) 23:01, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

This request is neither uncontroversial or supported by consensus. so no. -Roxy, the Prod. wooF 23:19, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

So was the last disruptive edit of this user after refusing to engage in the talk page uncontroversial or supported by consensus?, in fact he literally just escaped from the discussion and avoided engaging in the talk page and then he quickly asked for page protection!, is such behavior OK and accepted?. And regarding "controversality", the article is about North Africa not African Sahel which has its own page, should I go to the page of Southern Europe and add Norway?? May I understand what do you mean by controversial?? How can a geographic location become controversial?? North Africa simply means the Northern part of Africa which Sahel countries are obviously not located in. Should I go to the page of East Asia and add Turkey?? and say it is controversial and request page protection?. Almost all the world organizations such as the World Bank, US Census, African Union itself, FAO, Population Reference Bureau, WTO and I can list tons of other world organizations as mentioned in the sources if you want consider North Africa to be only the Mediterranean countries located in the extreme northernmost of the continent. So I don't know what you exactly mean by "controversial"?. Side note: I am a 35 years old aracheogenetist and academic lecturer in the University, I am not a teenager, so please use more decent language while talking with me ( I don't mean your reply here ) like what I am doing with you, I am not a vandal or sock puppet, I am just a scientific person who hates scientific dishonesty and misleading others, I might react harsh with scientific dishonest people, but that's because I respect science and myself. I am here for editing as a volunteer, you are n't my manager or something. I really think that registering on Misplaced Pages should be by using Identification card to avoid vandalism and sock puppeting which will save the community here a great deal of time wasted in fighting sock puppeting and vandalism and will also give more credibility. Moreover, I don't mind at all leaving Misplaced Pages if they don't want good users, it is OK :). Anyway, I plan with other scientists from around the globe to create an encyclopedia in the future and who knows it could be more famous than Misplaced Pages one day, it is crazy but there is nothing impossible. Thank you and sorry for any inconvenience :). Ryanoo (talk) 00:21, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Kabyle Kingdoms in the Ottoman era at their height .jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:19, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

July 2021

With regard to these four succesive edits:

• The majority is berber and arab speaking berber. Arabs are a minority This contradicts what RS say and cannot be taken seriously.
• There is no second official language. Your edit makes it look as though Berber is the only official language in Algeria and Morocco.
• For the Banu Hilal: 1) you cannot replace a reliable source with a thesis. 2) The Banu Hilal were not stopped by the Almohads (by that time they already had settled in the plains of the Central Maghreb and Ifriqiya). 3) They didn't rebel again in 1153 (your dates are incorrect). 4) This article is not about them, nor is it about the Banu Sulaym, so there is no need to create a content fork since we're linking to the concerned articles. M.Bitton (talk) 00:01, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Request for comment - inclusion of Sudan

There is currently a lack of consensus as to which countries the geographical descriptor of North Africa should include. This region is messy, with the Maghreb, Northwestern Africa, Northeastern Africa and Middle East regional groupings all overlapping. One question that has been discussed extensively on this page in various forms, but lingered unresolved for decades, is whether to include Sudan. At present, the principle source that includes Sudan in its definition of North Africa is the UN Statistics Division, which uses the UN geo-scheme as its basis. However, the African Union, World Bank, Encylopedia Britannica sources and others exclude it. Sudan is also included as part of Northeastern Africa and the Sahel group of countries, and, in some sources, as part of East Africa. Again, it is principally the UN Statistics Division that excludes it from East Africa. Should Sudan be included in North Africa? Please comment below. Iskandar 323 (talk) 13:30, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Comment So you are looking for a be all end all definition to North Africa but the sources do not offer it. they instead offer contradictory opinions that either include Sudan or don't. However this is Misplaced Pages. It's not our place to decide whether Sudan is in North Africa or not. But that's what you are looking for. We would be creating original research to do so.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 16:25, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Comment @Serialjoepsycho: Ah, well perhaps I could have phrased the proposition slightly better. I suppose the question could also be outlined as: should Sudan be considered as part of North Africa in terms of the working definition of this page? I.e.: Should Sudan be discussed in detail on this page? OR, should it be noted at the top of the page that Sudan is included in some but not most definitions, and then proceed on that basis? Iskandar323 (talk) 17:58, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

The point of my above comments is what do the sources say? You mention that some include Sudan. Without some major overriding justification there's no reason to exclude.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 21:53, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• Comment (summoned by the bot): if reliable sources differ on whether Sudan is part of North Africa, our article should reflect this. For example, the lead can mention that some sources include Sudan but others don't. The map can use different shades to distinguish countries that are included according to different sources, as we do in other articles such as Southern Africa. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 19:58, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
• CommentI agree with Mx. Granger and -Serialjoepsycho- if reliable sources differ on whether Sudan is part of North Africa, we shouldn't be making a judgement, our article should reflect this differing viewpoints. Deathlibrarian (talk) 10:10, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

So yeah that's pretty much what I said.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 16:39, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

• Comment, again. sigh. We already include what various reliable sources say, and note that some sources differ. I personally do not believe that the article requires any surgery, or rebuilding, as our job is not to define, but to report what reliable sources say. Read the rest of this page to see this same discussion happening time and time again. (and me saying the same thing) -Roxy the sceptical dog. wooF 15:52, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

• Comment The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. However, other sources also include the Sudan in East Africa and/or sub-Saharan Africa. The Sudan shouldn't be excluded in this article. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:14, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

References

1. It excludes the population of the disputed territory of the Western Sahara (the so-called Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic. If it was included, the Moroccan September 2014 census would result in 33,848,242 inhabitants and its mid-2015 demographic projection would give some 34,198,000 inhab.
2. Mattar, Philip (June 1, 2004). Encyclopedia of the Modern Middle East and North Africa. Macmillan Reference USA. ISBN 9780028657691.
3. Bossard, Laurent (2014). An atlas of the Sahara-Sahel : geography, economics and security. Paris: Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. ISBN 9264222340.
4. es Sadi, Abderrahman; Leroux, Paris E. (1898). Tarikh es soudan.
5. McGregor, Andrew (2001). "The Circassian Qubbas of Abbas Avenue, Khartoum: Governors and Soldiers in 19th Century Sudan" (PDF). Nordic Journal of African Studies.
6. "North Africa and the African Transition Zone". University of Minnesota.
7. Güney, Aylın; Gökcan, Fulya (February 2012). "The 'Greater Middle East' as a 'Modern' Geopolitical Imagination in American Foreign Policy". Geopolitics.
8. http://www.west-africa-brief.org/content/en/six-regions-african-union
9. https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/statis_e/technotes_e.htm
10. http://www.worldbank.org/en/region/mena/overview
11. https://en.wikipedia.org/Union_of_North_African_Football_Federations
12. http://www.fao.org/neareast/en/
13. https://www.prb.org/2012-interactive-world-map/
14. https://www.state.gov/j/ct/rls/crt/maps/64374.htm

The person editing this is confusing Western Asia with the "Middle East" and thinks the "Middle East" is the correct opposite equivalence to "North Africa".

The accurate and correct opposite equivalence to "North Africa" is not the "Middle East" but it is Western Asia, as the Middle East includes Egypt, a country in North Africa. The Middle East is a geopolitical region that is not based on continental boundaries or lines(it is not confined to one single continent. It is on the intersection of, and extends to, Africa, Asia and Europe), while West Asia and North Africa are purely determined by continental boundaries(countries on the Western part of the Asian continent and countries on the Northern part of the African continent). Please understand the difference between the two before editing. If you want to use a term that is an opposite equivalence to the Middle East, then it is the "Maghreb" region, which this article is not about. This article is strictly about the top part of the African continent, and not about geopolitical regions like the Maghreb or the Middle East. This common misconception needs to end. P.S. The person editing this article Roxy the dog just admitted that he's never heard of the term "West Asia" before. Somebody please get some educated people here and lock the North Africa article. Ahmad Abdul Malik (talk) 05:55, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

It's true. I had never heard the term West Asia before today. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 17:14, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Then why are you editing on here? West Asia has an article here on Misplaced Pages, you can check it out. Then Check out the Middle East article and understand the difference. Ahmad Abdul Malik (talk) 17:21, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

I am editing to correct your errors, as the common term for the area you are referring to is the middle east. Middle East has an article here on Misplaced Pages, you can check it out. Then Check out the West Asia article and understand the difference-Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 17:24, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

No you need some education. When you have sentences such as this.. "Arabs from the Middle East swept across the region in a wave of Muslim conquest. These peoples formed a single population in many areas, as Berbers and Egyptians merged into Arabic and Muslim culture." then you begin to have a conflict of information when it comes to Egypt. Don't you see the contradiction? We are talking about continental locations, not geopolitical regions such as the Middle East. The Middle East and West Asia are not synonymous. While the Majority of the Middle East is situated in West Asia, it still does not make up the entirety of the Middle East. Ahmad Abdul Malik (talk) 17:45, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

I find you to be very rude and ignorant. Middle East is the correct term. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 17:58, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

No because the Middle East extends beyond the Asian continent. How can this be so hard for you to understand? It includes Egypt in North Africa and Turkey which is a Eurasian nation. Ahmad Abdul Malik (talk) 18:00, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

• 1) The article has been edited by a number of people and not just one person. 2) Given that there is no "accurate and correct" definition of North Africa, there is no point in looking for its "accurate and correct" opposite. 3) Since your edit has been reverted multiple times, I suggest you stop edit warring, refrain from making personal attacks and instead seek consensus for your change. M.Bitton (talk) 18:03, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

  True, there is no completely accurate definition for North Africa, it can be a set of countries that are viewed as being on the top part of the African continent, which in this case, could also be interpreted in many different ways. But when we invoke terms that are not continental based(Middle East) alongside continental terminologies(North Africa), we begin to run into informational conflicts, specifically regarding those regions. The term "Middle East" is not the Middle of a specific continent. It refers to the Middle of the East in relation to Western Europe's proximity(which bred terms such as Near East, Middle East and Far East) in other words, they are terms to designate the nations from a West European directional perspective. While the term "North Africa" is obviously referring to the top part of the African continent, regardless of which countries you consider being on the top. We all agree that North Africa is within the African continent, right? Well the Middle East is not confined to one single continent. It amazes me that you allow a person that never heard of the term "West Asia" to be involved in editing articles regarding this subject. Ahmad Abdul Malik (talk) 18:19, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

  What amazes me most is the fact that you keep making personal attacks, despite being asked (nicely) to refrain from doing so. M.Bitton (talk) 22:34, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

  I did not initiate the attacks. I was called "Ignorant" by a person who doesn't know what West Asia is. This has to be reported. Ahmad Abdul Malik (talk) 22:38, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

  You initiated the attack (here's the diff to prove it) and you continue making personal attacks despite being asked not to. I agree, it has to be reported by Roxy the dog. M.Bitton (talk) 22:48, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

  No, the proof is actually within the edits and I quote..."Idiocy reverted". You can check the notes of each edit by Roxy. Ahmad Abdul Malik (talk) 22:52, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Māori translation

A Māori language translation of this page has been made and needs to be linked: https://mi.wikipedia.org/%C4%80wherika-ki-te-raki?venotify=created Thomas Norren (talk) 08:44, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

done Thomas Norren (talk) 21:59, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Mauritania should be added on the map (green colour).

Mauritania is not on the map? 2A02:27B0:4B04:8870:CCF8:2A17:F843:E004 (talk) 21:41, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment It shouldn't. Mauritania is always a part of West Africa. Western Sahara is sometimes included in West Africa too. Mauritania is a part of the Arab world though. The Arab world also includes the Comoros, Djibouti, and Somalia etc.

The Sudan should be added on the map. It is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:19, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

March 2023

@Beetrooot: your edit summary is clearly misleading: you pretended to be adding content when in fact, you changed and removed content without a valid reason. Worse still, you introduced a factual error. Please discuss your changes per BRD and refrain from edit warring. M.Bitton (talk) 18:32, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

First, you could use a more civil manner, sir. Tone down your language please, I am not here for a fight. The use of terms such as "misleading" should not be used lightly, presuming malice on people you do not know. I added multiple official documents and secondary sources to my edits, both in Arabic and French. Including from the official journal of the kingdom of Morocco, as well as other Misplaced Pages pages. Instead of attacking up front. Pin pointing the errors, if any, would have been the preferred way to go, this way we all advance, instead of undoing my edits without justification. Unless you insist in holding the truth. In fact, you having Misplaced Pages badges means in no way you are the sole upholder of the ultimate truth. Otherwise, the issue is clear: the death of community encyclopedias. Beetrooot (talk) 18:42, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm not presuming anything, and talking of respect: you reverted my edit without even bothering to leave an edit summary, so I wouldn't go there if I were you. Anyway, I'm not bothered about what you added as much by what you changed and removed.

1. you removed "The largest ethnic groups in North Africa are Arabs, Berbers are considered the second largest ethnicity in north Africa in the west and the Arabs are a majority also in the east approaching the Middle East".
2. you changed "Tamazight as a second official language in Algeria and Morocco" to "Tamazight as a co-official language in Morocco and a national language in Algeria".

Care to explain why? M.Bitton (talk) 18:50, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Because those are facts. The fact of you asking is very telling. You have no knowledge about the subject. Otherwise you’d have read (if you can read Arabic which I doubt) the official journal of the Kingdom of Morocco Number 2.19.810 officially signed the 23 septembre 2019 instating the official status of Tamazight as an official (not national) language of Morocco. Enacting in fact the amendments of the Moroccan constitution dating of march 2011 announced by the King Mohammed IV. Beetrooot (talk) 18:57, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Since you're clearly avoiding to address the issue, my guess is that you just can't explain your changes. M.Bitton (talk) 19:01, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I just did! Am I talking to a bot or a wall. What is this?! Beetrooot (talk) 19:05, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Nope, you didn't explain why you removed the content. M.Bitton (talk) 19:09, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

The quote "Berbers are considered the second largest ethnicity in north Africa" Is highly, highly controversial!

Considered by who? What is the source? I actually removed a controversial non factual statement and replaced it by a more nuanced and sourced one. I can not comprehend? This is amazing! FR! Beetrooot (talk) 19:17, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

As for Algeria, the gouvernement uses the loosely defined term "national" to avoid recognition of Tamazight as an official language due to the Nationalistic tendencies of the regime. By removing this edit you (either intentionally or unintentionally - I would lean to the latter) contributing to the oppression of a whole cultural group of people. You could also read the linked Misplaced Pages pages to find out the first statement was factual. No need to go further. Beetrooot (talk) 19:03, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

But I guess facts do not matter anymore. sad. Beetrooot (talk) 19:07, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

What you said about Algeria is factually incorrect. No further comment necessary. M.Bitton (talk) 19:09, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Sir, my edit was not about Algeria. It was about Morocco. What is so difficult to comprehend? Beetrooot (talk) 19:19, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

You edited Algeria and even tried to explain why, so don't try to wiggle out of this. Your statement about Algeria is factually incorrect and that's that. M.Bitton (talk) 19:23, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

"Wiggle" ?! What is this language? Behave your self, sir!

Misplaced Pages used to be better than this! Sad. Beetrooot (talk) 19:32, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I think that what you have a hard time comprehending is that an "Official language" DOES NOT have the same meaning as "National language". The older statement is LITERALLY legally NON FACTUAL! And I gave an official document proving it! The fact that Tamazight is 'national' in Algeria was left unchanged! What is it so difficult to understand!? Beetrooot (talk) 19:36, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't think, I know that your statement about Algeria is factually incorrect. The fact that you seem to think that others are ignorant makes the matter worse. M.Bitton (talk) 19:37, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Then give me one, just one single official source stating that Tamazight is 'Official' in Algeria! Go ahead! Just one? And please, sir, do not make it an ego thing, stay civil. I am not here for a fight. But facts are facts. Hope other people would read this. Really! Beetrooot (talk) 19:44, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I sure can, but when I do will you apologise for making such an asinine assertion (especially after what you said about me)? M.Bitton (talk) 19:50, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Sir, you really seem to make it an ego thing, don’t you? Here is the relevant part of Algerian constitution:

Chapter I - Algeria

Article 1 Algeria is a People's Democratic Republic. It is one and indivisible.

Article 2 Islam is the religion of the State.

Article 3 Arabic is the national and official language.

Article 3 (2002 amendment) Tamazight is also a national language.

Source: wikimeida https://en.wikisource.org/Constitution_of_Algeria#Chapter_I_-_Algeria

What do you think? Beetrooot (talk) 19:56, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Either you don't know how to use Goole or you're simply too embarrassed to admit your mistake (especially after what you said about me). That's what I think! Either way, this is my last comment. M.Bitton (talk) 20:02, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Sir, I do not want to make it about egos, but you called me 'misleading' and other things, even though I addressed you respectfully and with civility, since the first reply. I think you should be more respectful towards others and respect differences in opinion and above all, facts! You can cancel my edits and lower the level of public knowledge, but facts and truth are above your Wiki badges. You should know better. Sad! The readers deserve better. Beetrooot (talk) 20:20, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Moreover, Tamazight is not 'Official' in Algeria, it is 'National'. The older statement was not factual for Algeria as well! I actually corrected it! Beetrooot (talk) 19:40, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

That's factually incorrect! I suggest you familiarize yourself with the subject before embarrassing yourself further. I'm done wasting my time here. M.Bitton (talk) 19:45, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Reading your comments, the only conclusion I can have is that you are not familiar with the subject of North African geography or culture. Not in the least. Sad. I Hope the readers would find a better source of information. Beetrooot (talk) 18:48, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

First sentence redundancy

The current first sentence reads, North Africa, or Northern Africa, is a region encompassing the northern portion of the African continent.

This form is against guidance of MOS:REDUNDANCY,

Use the first sentence of the article to provide relevant information that is not already given by the title of the article If the article's title does not lend itself to being used easily and naturally in the first sentence, the wording should not be distorted in an effort to include it. Instead, simply describe the subject in normal English, avoiding unnecessary redundancy.

Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 21:54, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

What do you suggest? M.Bitton (talk) 22:10, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

I think including the Sahara desert would be more helpful because it provides the reader a widely known point of reference. Also, it is common to use the term Subsaharan Africa. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 22:18, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

That's not an improvement. The Sahara is just a region in North Africa, it doesn't define it. M.Bitton (talk) 22:26, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

It certainly is an improvement. I think it is self evident that North Africa or Northern Africa is a region and I have no idea how it is helpful saying that Norhern Africa encompasses the northern portion of the African continent. I mean, what other portion would it encompass, the southern region? Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 00:52, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

It's obviously not that self-evident (given its use in the dictionaries). M.Bitton (talk) 09:41, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

A reference is called for. Besides, dictionaries are infamous for many times using redundancies and circular definitions. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 18:36, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Per Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary#The dictionary definition trap,

A good definition is not circular, a synonym or a near synonym, overly broad or narrow, ambiguous, figurative, or obscure. When a descriptive title is self-explanatory, such as history of Malta, a definition may not be needed. See also fallacies of definition.

Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 18:46, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

The dictionaries were mentioned in a specific context (to prove that the claim that it's "self-evident" is not a fact). The latest policy that you cited doesn't apply in this instance as there is no singular accepted definition for the region. You don't need to convince me that the lead sentence may or may not need changing as I don't mind either way (that's why I asked you to suggest something), but if it needs changing, then it cannot be with something worse.

Unfortunately, what you're proposing is WP:OR and misleading, but worst of all, it contradicts the common definitions that are stated in the lead. M.Bitton (talk) 15:14, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

We just think very differently and disagree with each other. But interesting. You think that North Africa doesn't contain the Sahara desert? Do you think saying that "North Africa, or Northern Africa, is a region that contains the Sahara Desert." is original research? Do you think the Sahara is not in North Africa? Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 21:14, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

It's not about what I think. Although there is no singular accepted definition for the region, most RS describe North Africa in terms of the countries that it contains. M.Bitton (talk) 10:36, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Do you have a proposal to mirror said definitions in terms of the countries it contains? Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 22:55, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

It's already there, starting with The most common definition ... M.Bitton (talk) 23:26, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Are you proposing it to be in the first sentence? Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 23:33, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

I think that the current lead is fine as it introduces the reader to the region's location as well as the fact that there is no singular accepted definition for it. M.Bitton (talk) 23:37, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Ok, it is fine we disagree. It simply means it is time to request more input from other editors. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 23:49, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Pinging @JacobTheRox, Thebiguglyalien, and Novem Linguae: for consensus. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 21:14, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

@Thinker78: why did you ping those editors in particular? M.Bitton (talk) 21:21, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton Because they are members of the WikiProject Lead Improvement Team. Not forum shopping. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 21:30, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

@Thinker78: That's not how we seek consensus. If you want input from the community, then you don't cherry pick who to ping and who to leave out. You can either ping all of them (though, in this case, since you're a member of that project, I'm not sure that's appropriate), ping all those that have contributed to this article recently, advertise the discussion in the relevant boards or start a RfC. M.Bitton (talk) 21:34, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I am familiar with the dispute resolution process. I pinged them per WP:CONTENTDISPUTE, "if you cannot resolve the dispute through discussion with the other editor, you may request participation from uninvolved, interested editors to build consensus for your changes". They are not involved and I haven't even had much interaction with them if any, if that's your concern. I randomly pinged them, I didn't cherry picked them. I have just posted a request of input in the wikiproject page. Assume good faith. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 21:46, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

They are involved since you're all members of the same project. It's about doing things properly (faith has nothing to do with it). In any case, I suggest we start a RfC to put this to bed once and for all. Suggestions on what it should include are welcome. M.Bitton (talk) 21:49, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Involved in the context of consensus means being involved in the discussion. Another thing would be canvassing editors favorable to one opinion. being in the same Wikiproject doesn't mean people there share one's opinions, as you may be aware. In fact, discussions often form in wikiprojects with various points of view.

If you want to make an RfC I suggest making a simple question of A vs B versions.

Version A: North Africa, or Northern Africa, is a region encompassing the northern portion of the African continent.

Version B: North Africa, or Northern Africa, is a region that contains the Sahara Desert.

Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 22:32, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I started a RfC with the options that you suggested. M.Bitton (talk) 23:01, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't recommend pinging folks for something like this since it looks too much like canvassing. Leaving a message on a WikiProject talk page is fine though and is probably the best way to do it. Like you did at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Lead Improvement Team#Input requested first sentence North Africa. –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:03, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I understand your point. Problem is that in small wikiprojects the situation might be that no one is watching the talk page. Then activity dies down. Pinging in my opinion is another way of reactivating the project. Not that I ping to often to irritate members too... Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 03:22, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Sorry I haven't been well. Currently the lede is ridiculous. It is currently "Northern Africa is the North of Africa". This is clearly against redundany policy. For example, the lede of human digestive system is not "The human digestive system is the system of digestion in humans". I think it should be "While there is no common consensus on the specific geographical location of northern Africa, it is sometimes defined as stretching from the Atlantic shores of Mauritania in the west, to Egypt's Suez Canal in the east." or similar. Remember that the lede of an article doesn't have to start with the article name. JacobTheRox (talk) 09:04, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

One issue is that redundant is often misunderstood as a synonym of repetitive, but they're not identical. The difference is subtle but important, and since I've gone into more detail about it at the Rfc, I won't repeat that here. What I will say, is that I agree with you that it's essential to determine if the term is well-defined or not; if is is, one could simply list the countries or geographical features that correspond to agreed-upon usage. If it's not well-defined, as your example suggests, then one could sketch out the majority viewpoint (if there is one) and some of the alternatives. Some good articles to look at for ideas are Eastern Europe and Mitteleuropa. (There's also Central Europe, but I'm not too crazy about the lead sentence there, which leaves me feeling I haven't learned at thing.) Maybe an even better example might be Northern Europe, which has a matching adjective, similar vague definition, and (imho) is similarly often avoided in favor of other, more well-known alternatives. Mathglot (talk) 04:45, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

RfC about the lead sentence

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Which of these two sentences best describes North Africa? 23:01, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

• A. North Africa, or Northern Africa, is a region encompassing the northern portion of the African continent.
• B. North Africa, or Northern Africa, is a region that contains the Sahara Desert.

Survey

• C. It should be: North Africa (sometimes Northern Africa), is a region....

Neither A nor B, but C, because OR-ing them like that implies an equivalence which does not exist. In fact, North Africa is about 17 times as common as the alternative. No opinion on the "Sahara Desert" part of it. Mathglot (talk) 00:39, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

• Comment A "region encompassing the northern coast of Africa" might sound less redundant. Senorangel (talk) 01:29, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, but encompasses doesn't define it. Most people wouldn't think of the Sahara desert as on "the northern coast". I.e., it's imprecise. Mathglot (talk) 02:52, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

  Maybe Northeastern United States or Western United States are better examples to follow. Senorangel (talk) 01:04, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• I agree with Mathglot that using "or" equates "Northern Africa" with "North Africa". As for the rest of the wording, I recommend simply combining both A and B. I don't know whether to call it C or D.

North Africa (sometimes Northern Africa), is a region encompassing the northern portion of the African continent and much of the Sahara Desert. pillowcrow 20:41, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

I like it. What about:

North Africa is a region encompassing Northern Africa and much of the Sahara Desert therein.

Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 22:40, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

I have yet to see a RS describing North Africa in terms of what it encompasses (all of the Atlas Mountains, part of the Sahara, the southern part of the Mediterranean coast, etc.). M.Bitton (talk) 23:03, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

The Sahara desert is recognized as a landmark around the world. It is mostly a feature of Northern Africa as it covers much of it and is its most notable geographic characteristic (at least region-wide). Therefore, I think it should be in the first sentence.

I concede that MOS:LEADREL states, According to the policy on due weight, emphasis given to material should reflect its relative importance to the subject, according to published reliable sources.

What is your proposal? Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 23:27, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

That's irrelevant and WP:OR (feature wise) because this article is about North Africa and not the Sahara (which has its own) or any other feature or landmark. In other words, I disagree with the inclusion of the Sahara in the lead. M.Bitton (talk) 23:42, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

I guess you didn't read the second half of my comment... Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 02:56, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

I think mentioning WP:OR about info of the first sentence is misguided. Reason being is that there is more latitude in providing info in the first sentence than in the body of the article. Per MOS:LEADCITE, The presence of citations in the introduction is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article. This in combination with MOS:LEADREL, Significant information should not appear in the lead, apart from basic facts, if it is not covered in the remainder of the article, although not everything in the lead must be repeated in the body of the text.

I consider the Sahara being one of the most notable geographic features in North Africa is a basic fact that would be helpful to include in the first sentence. I know you disagree; therefore, in this case, because of your objection, MOS:LEADCITE also states, The verifiability policy advises that material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and direct quotations, should be supported by an inline citation. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 03:10, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

I found reliable sources.

North Africa is a region encompassing Northern Africa that is mostly covered by the Sahara Desert. Thinker78 (talk) 04:16, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

The cherry picked sources that are not not subject don't have much weight. What you consider to be important is just your opinion. When I think of North Africa, the Sahara is the last thing that springs to mind because I think not only of what it means today to some people, but also to what it meant throughout its known history. If it helps, I can also quote a scholarly source that describes it as a region that is situated between the Sahara Desert and the Mediterranean Sea.

As for you question, I agree with Mathglot: "northern Africa" is not synonymous with "North Africa", and it therefore, should either be removed or at the very least have "sometimes" added to it. M.Bitton (talk) 14:06, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

1. Those are reliable sources. I chose them from the Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Perennial sources.
2. "What you consider to be important is just your opinion." Yes, this is a discussion, you have your opinion, I have my opinion, others have their opinion. That's usually how discussions work.
3. Regarding Northern Africa vs North Africa, I think User:Mathglot was not saying they are not synonymous but rather that they are not equivalent in the degree of common use they have: "In fact, North Africa is about 17 times as common as the alternative." Simply bolding without using connective words like "or" or similar is not stating how often it is used, but simply it is a way to avoid redundancy so we don't end up saying North Africa is the region of North Africa. But what is your take? What is the meaning of Northern Africa?
4. Regarding your source, check the map. Is your source saying North Africa is only the small strip of land between the desert (in yellow) and the Mediterranean? If so, it appears to directly contradict the sources I found and what currently is stated in the article Sahara, "The desert covers much of North Africa". Also, it doesn't seem to fit with the article List of regions of Africa. Regards,

Thinker78 (talk) 21:58, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

It's not my source, it's a scholarly source. The fact that it contradicts the sources that you provided is one more reason why the Sahara shouldn't be included in the lead.

On the other hand, that's my map. M.Bitton (talk) 22:01, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Nice map. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 22:03, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Ok, I drop my suggestion about the Sahara being in the first sentence. But I still think we can do different than providing a semi-redundant and repetitive first sentence. We can take the hint of MOS:FIRST, If the article title is merely descriptive—such as Electrical characteristics of dynamic loudspeakers—the title does not need to appear verbatim in the main text.

This is another proposal,

The region of North Africa borders the southern Mediterranean Sea, opposite Europe. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 22:23, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

It looks like Sudan and Western Sahara do not border the Mediterranean. Senorangel (talk) 00:36, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

A longer sentence minus Europe can sound more definitive. The region of North Africa consists of states that border the southern Mediterranean Sea, adjacent territories that border the Atlantic Ocean or the Red Sea, and several nearby islands. Senorangel (talk) 01:17, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Sounds nice to me. It certainly provides a better description and idea to the reader than the current first sentence. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 03:42, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton@Mathglot@Pillowcrow@Shazback@JacobTheRox Thinker78 (talk) 00:56, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree. It's precise, and it avoids the Sahara complication. pillowcrow 18:01, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Is Mauritania considered part of North Africa or only sometimes, like Sudan? Senorangel (talk) 02:25, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

In the article it is not mentioned. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 02:32, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't see it as an improvement and I have yet to come across a single RS that describes North Africa as such. Essentially, this description makes it needlessly complicated for someone who's not familiar with the subject to actually visualize where NF is (which is the whole purpose of the sentence). M.Bitton (talk) 00:42, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

• C. I agree with Mathglot's suggestion (just reiterating this as I already mentioned it in the above discussion). I strongly oppose the inclusion of the Sahara in the first sentence (again, this has been explained). Equally, given that we state in the lead that "there is no singularly accepted scope for the region", I don't see how the inclusion of any specific definition in the first sentence can be justified, especially if it departs from the most common definition that is listed in the following paragraph. M.Bitton (talk) 21:51, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

 Implemented Senorangel proposal. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 19:07, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

 Undone Please wait for the RfC closer to decide what to do next. M.Bitton (talk) 19:19, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

What closer? Did you request this to be closed? Per WP:RFCCLOSE, Editors are expected to be able to evaluate and agree upon the results of most RfCs without outside assistance.

I pinged you. If you had concerns or objections it would have been appropriate to respond to the ping. I was trying to determine consensus before implementing the proposal. What is your objection that you reverted? Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 20:00, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

No, I didn't, but you're welcome to do so. The editors that are involved (such as yourself) are not the ones who determine what the RfC consensus is. What was proposed in one of the !Votes can to be discussed once this RfC is closed. M.Bitton (talk) 20:17, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

I simply saw the discussion had run its course and simply took action as in any other discussion. Again, I pinged editors who participated and no one replied. I waited a week to see if someone would reply and no one did. Then I simply assumed no one had objections to the proposal and I implemented it.

Per WP:RFCEND, When an RfC is used to resolve a dispute, the resolution is determined the same way as for any other discussion: the participants in the discussion determine what they have agreed on and try to implement their agreement.

I don't know if you had the chance to look athe RFCCLOSE guidance I shared in my previous comment. No outside assistance is needed to determine consensus unless it's needed.

In addition, please check the policy section WP:TALKDONTREVERT. You shouldn't revert randomly just because. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 20:36, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Please refrain from throwing irrelevant jargon at me. This RfC was started because of you, so now you wait until it's properly closed by someone other than you. 21:07, 19 October 2023 (UTC) M.Bitton (talk) 21:07, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages guidance is not irrelevant jargon, it's what editors should attempt to follow. Thanks. Thinker78 (talk) 23:55, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Let me repeat again: as someone who is involved (actually, you are the cause of the RfC), you simply cannot decide what the consensus of the RfC is. Is that clear enough for you? Discussing an !vote doesn't constitute anything (that's why I and I suspect others ignored your ping back then). If you have yet another thing to suggest, then you wait for the RfC to close or you can start a new discussion about it if you wish. M.Bitton (talk) 00:07, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

You repeatedly state opinions without citing any relevant Misplaced Pages guidance. Please share with us relevant Misplaced Pages guidance instead of only your opinions. I already mentioned relevant guidance that you dismiss as jargon in favor of yet your personal opinions. That's not how things work in Misplaced Pages. Thanks. Thinker78 (talk) 02:03, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't need to cite what I expect everyone to know. If you're not familiar with the word involved, then you most certainly are in position to lecture anyone about how Misplaced Pages works. M.Bitton (talk) 19:53, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:RFCCLOSE, if consensus is undoubtedly clear, even an editor involved may close the discussion.

I interpreted a consensus clear because,

• Per WP:TALKDONTREVERT, Consensus can be assumed if no editors object to a change.
• I pinged everyone involved in the discussion more than week after User:Senorangel made their proposal for first sentence.
• No one made a comment about the proposal nor objections made.
• I waited a further week.
• By that time it was more than a month since the start of the RfC
  • Per WP:RFCEND,

    • An RfC should last until enough comment has been received that consensus is reached, or until it is apparent that it won't be.

    • There is no required minimum or maximum duration; however, Legobot assumes an RfC has been forgotten and automatically ends it (removes the {{rfc}} tag) 30 days after it begins

    • But editors should not wait for that. If one of the reasons to end RFCs applies, someone should end it manually, as soon as it is clear the discussion has run its course.

      • One of the reasons to end the RFC was if consensus is undoubtedly clear, even an editor involved may close the discussion.
      • Another reason to end the RFC was was The discussion may just stop, and no one cares to restore the {{rfc}} tag after the bot removes it.

Per WP:WHENCLOSE,

if the discussion stopped, and editors have already assessed the consensus and moved on with their work, then there may be no need to formally close the discussion unless the process (e.g., Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion) requires formal closure for other reasons.

Per WP:CLOSE, There are no policies that directly dictate how to close a discussion.

Per WP:RFCCLOSE,

If the matter under discussion is not contentious and the consensus is obvious to the participants, then formal closure is neither necessary nor advisable. Written closing statements are not required. Editors are expected to be able to evaluate and agree upon the results of most RfCs without outside assistance.

• Given that no one objected to the proposal of Senorangel, I didn't consider the matter contentious.

As I mentioned in the talk page of User:M.Bitton, now that they made their objection known and raised such issue about this, I advised "the way to go is making a request at Misplaced Pages:Closure requests". Thinker78 (talk) 20:35, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I said what I had to say and see no reason to repeat it, let alone read your wall of colourful text, so please stop pinging me. M.Bitton (talk) M.Bitton (talk) 20:55, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Threaded Discussion

• See previous discussion

• Question Looking at MOS:REDUNDANCY wouldn't this be a good article to not start with the article name? Something like The northern portion of Africa is often consided to be a distinct region of the continent for geographical, historical, linguistic and political reasons. Shazback (talk) 13:49, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

  Shazback, I've taken the liberty of moving your comment to the "Threaded Discussion" section, as it seems pretty clear it's not a !vote. If you disagree, feel free to move it back, but I think it works better here. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 02:54, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

  In my opinion, that is an appeal to elegant variation and a wrong interpretation of MOS:REDUNDANCY. This is not like the awkward wording in the Mississippi river flood example at MOS. Here, I believe MOS:LEADSENTENCE should guide us:

  • The first sentence should introduce the topic, and tell the nonspecialist reader what or who the subject is, and often when or where.

  The point I'm trying to make is that Option A is repetitive, but not redundant (i.e., "superfluous", "unnecessary", "inessential") because "in the northern portion of Africa" (or similar) is essential information. In this case, in order to comply with the what suggestion from MOS:LEADSENTENCE, non-redundant repetition is essential to make sure we accurately convey what the topic of the article is. For a more detailed treatment of the tension or difference between redundant and repetitive see this discussion. Mathglot (talk) 03:47, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks for moving this to the appropriate section

  I agree that noting that it refers to a region in the northern portion of Africa is essential information (if only to differentiate from South Africa and clarify that it is not a political entity).

  I do not think it is appropriate to note that it contains the Sahara Desert in the lead when Sahara appears to contradict this. The article on the Sahara states and maps that the Sahara covers large parts of Algeria, Chad, Egypt, Libya, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Niger, Western Sahara, Sudan and Tunisia. Further noting that "important cities located in the Sahara include Nouakchott, the capital of Mauritania; Tamanrasset, Ouargla, Béchar, Hassi Messaoud, Ghardaïa, and El Oued in Algeria; Timbuktu in Mali; Agadez in Niger; Ghat in Libya; and Faya-Largeau in Chad." Whereas this article as of the current revision has one mention of "Mauritania" outside of the country statistics table, and no mention of Mali, Niger or Chad at all. The current lead map also does not highlight these four countries.Emphasis mine in all text in this paragraph

  Afterwards it is a question of style. My personal preference is for lead sentances that are a bit more informative than, say Eastern Europe "Eastern Europe is a subregion of the European continent.", but this is just a personal preference and not in scope of the RfC nor worthy of one. Shazback (talk) 07:59, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

References

1. Nace, Trevor (9 Nov 2017). "We Finally Know Why Northern Africa Is One Of The Driest Places On Earth". Forbes. Retrieved 3 Oct 2023.
2. O'Hare, Maureen (21 Dec 2016). "Snow falls in Sahara for first time in 37 years". CNN. Retrieved 3 Oct 2023.

Mauritania

The article includes Mauritania, but the map does not. Previous discussions seem divided. Senorangel (talk) 01:17, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

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