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Revision as of 09:07, 9 January 2024

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The following Misplaced Pages contributor may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view. 73.37.5.82 (talk · contribs)

Cross Platform Bias

The bias on this page is not only blatant and inconsistent with 40 years of nutritional science, but it is consistent with the bias found on every other vegan advocate pages on Misplaced Pages.

Over the last 40 years, science, that is not funded by the farming and food manufacturing industry, points to the reality that humans are physiological herbivores, and that deviating from a herbivore diet compromises health and impacts longevity.

This systematic bias on Misplaced Pages is unworthy of the platform and could be impacting donations. Clearly, anyone who admires the scientists and doctors who are inappropriately lambasted on Misplaced Pages are thinking twice about making donations.

Is it possible that Misplaced Pages gets significant funding from the meat and dairy industry or drug companies? Les Phelos (talk) 13:56, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages runs on reliable sources not personal opinion. There are reliable sources criticizing McDougall's dieting ideas so that is reflected on the article. There is no conspiracy - Misplaced Pages articles are not being funded by the dairy or meat industry. Psychologist Guy (talk) 14:21, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Harriet Hall's articles are not one of them and I'm not sure what makes them anything but personal opinion? 173.49.250.196 (talk) 18:34, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

See WP:SBM. Alexbrn (talk) 18:40, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I know it's SBM, but it's also a bad joke once it touches anything from veganism by Harriet Hall. I was introduced to her via her review of the China Study that left a lot to be desired. For example, in the link, she's reviewing a book published on August 1, 1991 and she's decrying outdated sources from 1970s-1990? Uh, maybe review a newer book of McDougall's if that's the problem. Not sure why reviewed an old book to decry old sources. 173.49.250.196 (talk) 18:47, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages editor opinions could for little to nothing as against reliable sources. Alexbrn (talk) 18:50, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, and that's a very tidy arrangement to hide behind here, especially when you take a single doctor's opinion, who never chose to go into nutrition, over the entire American Dietetic Association's position that "It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/ 173.49.250.196 (talk) 19:26, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

What do they say about McDougall's Fad Diet? - Roxy the English speaking dog 19:36, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

What exactly is "fad" about eating eating fruits, vegetables, beans, lentils, legumes and whole grains?

Even the 1977 McGovern report recommended this direction.

"The recommended way of accomplishing this was to eat more fruits, vegetables, and whole grains, and less high-fat meat, egg, and dairy products"

United States Senate Select Committee on Nutrition and Human Needs#cite note-brody-11 RudyRatzinger (talk) 19:13, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Why was this question never answered? I am also uncomfortable with the negative quotes from a blogger's website on this BLP. Ratel 🌼 (talk) 01:17, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Science-Based Medicine is a reliable source. It cannot be dismissed as just a blogger website because it is written by experts who advocate for evidence-based medicine. It is used on many biographies on Misplaced Pages. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:48, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Such as which biographies? Just checking. A neurologist and oncologist and their little society is not a good source in my book. Quackwatch was similar, and made a LOT of errors, such as condemning chronic fatigue syndrome as a hoax, which of course it isn't. Ratel 🌼 (talk) 20:44, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Do a search on Misplaced Pages for "sciencebasedmedicine.org". There are 80 matches, over 60 or so are biographies but they don't come up as matches for all of them for some reason. Just a few examples, it is used on the Aseem Malhotra, Joel Fuhrman and Steven Gundry articles. It is a reliable source for Misplaced Pages. In this area they often publish articles critical of fad diets. Psychologist Guy (talk) 00:00, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

But the articles themselves are not science based. They simply say, that one doctor criticized McDougall in a book. That’s not a good source. That’s why Misplaced Pages gets a bad rep in scholarship. 2001:8A0:FA74:4100:C937:C2E3:1B7:B56F (talk) 19:15, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Science-Based Medicine is considered a reliable source so there is no point in repeatedly moaning about it. See WP:SBM, "Science-Based Medicine is considered generally reliable, as it has a credible editorial board, publishes a robust set of editorial guidelines, and has been cited by other reliable sources. Editors do not consider Science-Based Medicine a self-published source, but it is also not a peer-reviewed publication with respect to WP:MEDRS". Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:43, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

A good source is not one that is generally considered reliable. A good source is a type of evidence that substantiates a claim. The studies cited also don’t do that. The claim that the McDougall diet may be deficient in various vitamins/minerals is not shown in the source given. Instead the source links to yet another source which is a study that does not discuss the McDougall diet but actually says vegans have the least deficiencies when compared to omnivores and vegetarians. It’s either a poorly written article or just filled with bias and possible malicious intent. 2001:8A0:FA74:4100:C937:C2E3:1B7:B56F (talk) 21:06, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

You are conducting WP:OR, what you are saying may or may not be true but it is not up to us to challenge what is in reliable sources. If you have an issue with Science-Based Medicine take it up with them. At Misplaced Pages we just cite what reliable secondary sources say. There is a strong consensus that Science-Based Medicine is a reliable source, so it can be cited on Misplaced Pages. Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:54, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

I see. So you’re saying Science Based Medicine wrote the Misplaced Pages article? If not, then my point has nothing to do with them since I’m talking about the sources on the Misplaced Pages page for John A McDougall. 2001:8A0:FA74:4100:C937:C2E3:1B7:B56F (talk) 08:15, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

No that is not what I am saying. I am saying you are indulging in original research by challenging what is in reliable sources. I see now you are not just specifically talking about Science-Based Medicine you are disputing other sources on the Misplaced Pages article such as this review . Like I said there is nothing we can do about this. If you have issue with the sources themselves you have to take it up with the authors yourself outside of Misplaced Pages. On Misplaced Pages all we do is compile and cite reliable sources but we can't do our own research by disputing what is in reliable sources, we just cite them. The source says "Iron, zinc, vitamin B12, vitamin D, calcium, and omega-3 s are potential nutritional deficiencies from following such a strict diet". This is referring to the low-fat McDougall diet, it is not talking about vegan diets in general. Psychologist Guy (talk) 12:24, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm still wondering how bias can be 'cross-platform'. Do you get a different version of the article if using Linux? Bon courage (talk) 12:28, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

I think that user might have been referring to the German Wiki article as well . The German Wiki article has been updated a few years ago with a major white-wash, any sourced criticism or skepticism about the McDougall diet has been removed. Most of that article is sourced to McDougall's own books. Psychologist Guy (talk) 13:13, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

I understand your point. But I actually want to say that I don't have an issue with most of the sources, my issue is how the Misplaced Pages article uses quotes from sources to make false claims. To take your example, the Misplaced Pages page claims that the study "noted" "potential deficiencies" from "such a strict diet". This gives the appearance that the study was referring to the McDougall Diet, but it wasn't. It simply gave an overwiew of Low Fat Diets. It explains that some low fat diets can be dificient. It then explains how the Swank Diet (which is low fat) showed dificiencies, but it does directy mention McDougall diet as deficient. Very dissapointing to read missleading quotes on Misplaced Pages. 2001:8A0:FA74:4100:D0DF:2DA3:8E56:C51F (talk) 15:36, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

This is what the reference says (reference 17 on our Misplaced Pages article) "The McDougall diet is a vegan, very low-fat (only 10% of kilocalories from fat), high-carbohydrate diet. Since Western-style diets have been attributed to several chronic diseases, this diet takes the opposite approach. Cereals, legumes, fruits and vegetables are included while sodium intake is limited and no animal products or added oils are allowed. Iron, zinc, vitamin B12, vitamin D, calcium, and omega-3 s are potential nutritional deficiencies from following such a strict diet". Our Misplaced Pages article does not misquote or misrepresent this reference. Can you explain what false claim is being made here? The source has been accurately cited. Psychologist Guy (talk) 15:50, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

The false claim is that the quote refers to the McDougall diet. It doesn't. It is just part of the introductory paragraph that explains Low Fat Diets in general. It then goes into detail about the deficiencies mentioned, which it attributes to the Swank Diet (also a low fat diet). It does not directly say McDougall is deficient. 2001:8A0:FA74:4100:D0DF:2DA3:8E56:C51F (talk) 15:57, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Err, "this diet ...". Are you not an English speaker? Bon courage (talk) 16:00, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

sorry, meant to say " it does NOT directy mention McDougall diet as deficient. 2001:8A0:FA74:4100:D0DF:2DA3:8E56:C51F (talk) 15:55, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

The text from the source we cite is accurate, I have quoted the paragraph in full above. The text is part of the same paragraph - it is referring to the McDougall diet. What Misplaced Pages is doing is accurate here per the sourcing, there is no misrepresentation. If you have an issue go and email the authors of the review paper, stop wasting time here. Psychologist Guy (talk) 16:22, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

To summarize, first you claimed that the sources were not reliable, then you said the Misplaced Pages article contained "false" statements, and now you are saying the statements are not "directly" in the source. The constant is you want the criticism of McDougall's diet removed, but the reason why you want this is a variable: it changes to a new reason when the last reason is refuted. This is called WP:POV pushing. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:23, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

This seems to happen every year (it's been going on for about 4 now), there will be drive by IPs saying the same thing on this talk-page every 4 months or so but they are unable to point out any misrepresentation from sourcing so they end up moving all kinds of goal posts. Psychologist Guy (talk) 16:46, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

You're still pushing the same story, which isn't very fair or balanced. Then you periodically go off on some IP address rant, conveniently ignoring critics who are accountable and not anonymous at all. I think this blatant, mindless, reductionistic bias here against evidence-based practitioners such as John A. McDougall is an example of the worst of the internet.Jack.B.2007 (talk) 17:33, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

You missed but they are unable to point out any misrepresentation from sourcing. That is not an IP address rant, it is a fact. Are you able to point out such a misrepresentation, or are you only hot air too? --Hob Gadling (talk) 18:15, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Jack has actually made two YouTube videos criticizing this Misplaced Pages article , (he links to these videos on his Misplaced Pages userpage). In the second video he zooms in on my userpage and makes some personal attacks against me. I have listened to both of his videos and in neither did he cite a single reliable source to improve the article. He pointed out one spelling mistake (which was later corrected) as an apparent criticism of the article being unreliable. The only source he actually cites is this 2021 report written by Michael Klaper, Susan M. Levin, Neal Barnard etc on dairy consumption. The report was not peer-reviewed, nor does it mention McDougall so it is off-topic (WP:OR).

Jack criticizes this Misplaced Pages article and will make an an hours worth of video about it but when asked for a reliable source he doesn't list any. Is it laziness, is it trolling or is it misrepresentation of how Misplaced Pages works? I think all three. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:59, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

You obviously have no intention in keeping this article objective. The main source (textbook) I removed doesn't contain such extreme bias against and is actually quite tolerant toward McDougall diet. I have the copy and can find only one reference to McDougall in total. Teleoid (talk) 09:07, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

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