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:::::Oh please. You want infoboxes taken from a well known micronation. Whether you agree with Liberland's existence or not, you are doing everything you can to suppress it. You might as well continue and remove the infoboxes of all micronations at this rate. ] (]) 15:35, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
:::::Oh please. You want infoboxes taken from a well known micronation. Whether you agree with Liberland's existence or not, you are doing everything you can to suppress it. You might as well continue and remove the infoboxes of all micronations at this rate. ] (]) 15:35, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
::::::Andy's proposal is to remove the "country" infobox. Thar is hardly "suppressing" the existance of Liberland, which after all, exists only in the minds and press releases of it supporters. It is not a "country", but rather a concept with no physical existence. ] 20:13, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
::::::Andy's proposal is to remove the "country" infobox. Thar is hardly "suppressing" the existance of Liberland, which after all, exists only in the minds and press releases of it supporters. It is not a "country", but rather a concept with no physical existence. ] 20:13, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
:::::::People live there now... with Liberland flags. Research first ] (]) 12:12, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
== Proposal to settle on a generic infobox solution for micronations ==
== Proposal to settle on a generic infobox solution for micronations ==
Revision as of 12:12, 9 February 2024
This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
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Proposal to remove the infobox
As a micronation, using "infobox country" as if like other users of that infobox, it is an actual country, is inappropriate. The information can be readily conveyed in the text of the article. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:31, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
I've been saying the same thing for some time. Infoboxes should be used for undisputed factual content, not the claims of websites promoting imaginary countries. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:30, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
Insofar as the article exists about the very concept that this so-called "website promoting imaginary countries" created, it is undisputed factual content. This is no different to The Lord of the Rings having an Infobox claiming to be set in "Middle-earth". Getsnoopy (talk) 22:19, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
Neither the existence nor non existence of a Misplaced Pages article, or an infobox in said article, have the slightest bearing on whether the subject of an article actually exists. Facts don't work like that... AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:35, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
The political movement "Liberland" exists along with the people in it, and the piece of land that they claim also exists. The controversies that they triggered also happened. Look at Ladonia (micronation) that I mentioned in the other thread, an art project by a famous Swedish artist, for a parallel example (although perhaps a bit less politically controversial). - Anonimski (talk) 18:46, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
this does not seem like a good idea, as it appears that most every listing at Template:Micronations uses the country infobox. if this is to be done it should be a centralized discussion to remove or replace all of them, not single this one out. ValarianB (talk) 18:35, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
I strongly suspect that were Misplaced Pages policies concerning WP:NPOV, WP:RS etc properly adhered to, the 'micronations' list would be substantially shorter. A good few of them appear to be nothing but fancruft, lacking even the limited real-world substance that Liberland supporters present. The inclusion criteria currently appear to be 'mentioned by some dubious source or other, somewhere', with the vast bulk of content then being primary-sourced promotional BS, originating with whoever has proclaimed themselves President, Emperor, or Pastafarian Pontiff. If we are to hold a centeralised discussion, the starting point should probably be how much cruft we can properly consign to the bit-bucket, rather than concerning ourselves with infoboxes for concoctions that shouldn't be on Misplaced Pages in the first place. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:20, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
You should step out from this discussion. You have shown a heavy display of WP:BIAS. You do realise that there are settlers in Liberland and prior to that, 'Liberlanders' have been arrested, deported and more since 2015? Croatia MOFA have released statements too so clearly there is a notable impact. MicroSupporter (talk) 12:06, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Oh please. You want infoboxes taken from a well known micronation. Whether you agree with Liberland's existence or not, you are doing everything you can to suppress it. You might as well continue and remove the infoboxes of all micronations at this rate. MicroSupporter (talk) 15:35, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Andy's proposal is to remove the "country" infobox. Thar is hardly "suppressing" the existance of Liberland, which after all, exists only in the minds and press releases of it supporters. It is not a "country", but rather a concept with no physical existence. Donald Albury20:13, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Proposal to settle on a generic infobox solution for micronations
Over the years, there have been some attempts to argue that the Liberland article shouldn't have any infobox at all. However, this is not the norm for micronation articles on Misplaced Pages today. For example, the Sealand and Republic of Minerva articles both have their own infoboxes with some basic information there. Even "art project" micronations have their infobox: see Ladonia (micronation). One question comes to my mind - why should this article in particular be without infobox?
Today, "Template:Infobox micronation" is a redirect to "Template:Infobox country", and editors are instructed to add "micronation=yes" as a parameter, so that it would be marked properly and reduce the risk of confusion. Removing it for just Liberland, and keeping the box for micronations of similar (or even lower) notability doesn't make any sense at all. Having a box with a slightly different appearance (for example using shades or colors) would perhaps be better.
I still don't understand why the removal discussion is specific for this article. The Liberland article is of considerably high notability in the Micronations topic. And, by the way, it's not just the infobox that has been targeted - look at the three (!) deletion attempts for this entire article, despite the fact that it's been well-covered in various forms of media in many countries.
The proper way to do this, is to try a wider discussion with editors that have written about other micronation topics, and settle on a generic solution for how they should be visually presented on Misplaced Pages. It's doesn't look very good to just gang up on one article in particular and push deletionism for one particular example. Topics related to Eastern Europe and the Balkans might have aspects that make people stubborn about their views about what's worthy enough to write about, due to the political history of certain parts. But that's not an excuse to try to "snipe" this article in various ways. See WP:IDONTLIKEIT.
As for my opinion - I think that the infobox should have a slightly different visual design in the general case, in all articles about micronations. And of course, "Micronation" should remain in the top part with a wikilink, for those who don't know what the word means. - Anonimski (talk) 17:10, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
No, this doesn't require 'discussion with editors that have written about other micronation topics'. Or at least, not with them alone. It requires a discussion involving the Misplaced Pages community as a whole over the issues raised, since it is that community that sets the standards regarding neutrality, reliable sourcing etc that frequently appear to have been ignored by the small proportion of the community that have been responsible for these articles. And no, this has absolutely nothing to do with the political history of the Balkans, or any other specific region. It is instead an instance (sadly not unusual) of content on a specific topic being unduly influenced by individuals often more concerned with promoting either a specific 'micronation', or 'micronations' in general, to the detriment of encyclopaedic coverage of the topic. I can think of no other subject on Misplaced Pages that quite as readily takes highly-questionable primary-sourced promotional claims as sufficient for infobox content, or that as readily acts as a conduit for such self-serving material more generally. Articles 'n 'micronations' must be made to conform with normal Misplaced Pages standards. 17:47, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
A wider discussion is fine too, perhaps even better. I just think it's so strange to focus so much of the "infobox removal topic" on this article. I do have understanding for why it may feel strange to use Template:Infobox country for these things, but we should instead have a true Template:Infobox micronation with a distinct graphical appearance. Having a "micronation=yes" parameter might feel like a lazy patch (and perhaps it is), but total removal would be fixing a wrong with a worse wrong. Many other "categorizable" topics have infoboxes for their purposes, summarizing certain types of content. - Anonimski (talk) 18:01, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
Delete infobox completely Not by far there is proof that Liberland is a country at all. So giving it a country-infobox would be a knee-jerk towards reliability. There is enough spam and self-promo in that "article". The Bannertalk17:38, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
If I haven't made it clear - I am against presenting micronations in a manner identical to established countries. It's just the total removal of infobox that I'm questioning the motives of. And what spam are you talking about? Even though it's not about a "real country", the events and political controversies that relate to this topic have been covered quite well by external sources (and a wide variety of them). In the past, when I've searched for and added material to this article, I've considered the topic to be of similar notability as Sealand. - Anonimski (talk) 18:20, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
The spam? A lot of additions were (as they are mostly removed by now) backed up by their own website. And other "sources" often quote Vít Jedlička, the promoter of this subject. The Bannertalk00:14, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
Some additions weren't just backed up by their website. A (former?) ' Minister of Justice' added himself in person. Can't have a better source than that. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:37, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
"Vít Jedlička wants it on record that he does not consider Liberland a 'micronation'..."
Just throwing this out there. A quote from an update to an article from the Reason.com website:
Vít Jedlička wants it on record that he does not consider Liberland a "micronation," for one reason because a nation is a people separate from a specific area and he considers all 700,000 online signups to be part of the nation of Liberland.
There have been questions in the past as to the reliability of Reason magazine and its related website, but it would seem unlikely that they'd misreport this. In practical terms, it would appear to make no real difference as far as our article is concerned, since we aren't bound by Jedlička's personal definitions of words. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:31, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
I agree with AndyTheGrump that we can keep using the term "micronation" on the Misplaced Pages article. The important part from a Misplaced Pages perspective is how the wider world describes it. At most, Jedlička's viewpoint could be mentioned and described, but even that might be trivial information, since it's an opinion that all micronations may have in one way or another. - Anonimski (talk) 16:27, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:37, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
