Misplaced Pages

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  --Srleffler 00:23, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the links. I'm interested in how Wikipedians will balance formalism and jargon vs. readability for the novice in articles on technical subjects. I'm also curious whether the quality of certain technical articles can be maintained in spite of their popularity (e.g., quantum mechanics). --Gnixon 03:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that this is an undecided issue. Articles on scientific topics do tend to get quite technical. As a physicist, I find this useful when reading physics articles, but sometimes frustrating when I read an article on, say, mathematics. There may at some point need to be decisions made about the appropriate technical level for an encyclopedia. Quantum mechanics is actually an interesting example, in that it has spawned a less-technical Introduction to quantum mechanics article. Perhaps that's the way to go.--Srleffler 04:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Tagging articles should be used as a last resort, not as a starting point for discussion. Only when there are legitimate concerns which cannot be resolved through discussion are such tags appropriate. Guettarda 17:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC) (This is incorrect. See below. Gnixon)

Could you point me to a page that explains that? Gnixon 18:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if there is one. Hence the explanation regarding usage. Guettarda 19:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I hoped you would show me a page illustrating consensus on usage of the tag, rather than just explaining your personal preference. Gnixon 19:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is the discussion, although it is short. Joelito (talk) 19:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Joelito. That's what I was looking for, but I'm not sure it addresses my question yet. I've added a comment asking for clarification. Gnixon 20:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Roland, I'd like to take some of our discussion about NPOV issues in the Evolution article off of the main talk page. I feel like when you say stuff like "I'm just trying to make the point that every single creationist scientific claim is a misunderstanding" or "I know it casts a bad light on creationists..." or "If this article offends people, so be it," then it becomes clear that part of what you want the Evolution article to do is to prove its case against the creationists. I'm personally very interested in how to convince creationists that evolution is correct, but I don't think Misplaced Pages is the place to do it. Don't you think we can phrase the article so as to explain what the theory of evolution says without arguing that it's correct? Gnixon 02:25, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm arguing that it is correct because that is the major POV about evolution. NPOV does not say that one must not state one extreme or the other. Rather, NPOV states that each viewpoint must be expressed and properly cited. Now, the scientific community views evolution as a valid scientific theory (the article shows that) and that's the driving force behind this article (as that's the major view point). Plus I have never argued that evolution is correct, rather I have argued that creationists use misunderstandings about evolution against the modern synthesis (a viewpoint that I have heavily backed up by now). I agreed with you, after some discussion, that the intro was too forcefull and too focused on creationists. So I rewrote the intro. The one sentance about creationism that remains has three good and respectable references in it. I think that's more than reasonable.

"becomes clear that part of what you want the Evolution article to do is to prove its case against the creationists." Not at all. My point in all those quotes was not the validity of evolution or creationism, but my belief that Misplaced Pages articles should NEVER EVER be bound by political correct. If a fact can be shown to be true (in the sense that it is published in some form or another) then it goes in the article. The fact about creationists using misunderstandings is such a case. Now of course, creationists will take offense at that, but by no means does that have to do with anything about NPOV.--Roland Deschain 02:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I wrote to you before the most recent revision (w/ 3 references). I think the intro as written now is excellent, as are the references used. We may still disagree as to exactly what constitutes NPOV, but as long as we can agree on the final product, I'm happy.  :) Gnixon 15:17, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I take offense. . . (LOL) Gnixon, this is directed to Roland, not you.

Roland, you seem to ignore the fact that evolution is put forward to a rather large extent by shoving other arguments aside, arguments that never have been ( and in my opinion, never will be). Evolution is stated in museums and schools as correct. It isn't explained why evolutionists are evolutionists, it's only said ( basically) that creationism and those who belive it are dumb. If it's so dumb, dont say its dumb, give an argument that discounts creationist's arguments. I am sick and tired of having our arguments dismissed instead of answered. Not that I don't know why y'all do it. I know very well that you can't get around the bombardier beetle, or the woodpecker, or the differences between reptile and bird eggs. I know you can't explain how the giraffe's neck valve evolved to keep its brain from being smashed by blood pressure when it gets a drink. I know you can't explain how organic materials that were supposed to have happened by chance are often so much stronger than materials we've designed. I know you can't explain why only humans invent things. (Please don't refer to apes here, they never use a new tool. . .) I know you can't explain why fossils of complicated creatures are found al the way down with the "simple creatures". And you can't explain how the Bible stated scientific truths long before scientists descovered them. I could go on, but I only will if I am requested to.

Zantaggerung 16:15, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry you think I was rude and apologize for the offense. I still think you misunderstood and misrepresented GetAgrippa's point. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:21, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks; apology accepted. I spent a good amount of time reading through Dmurtegx's original post and follow-ups, especially the references he gave, and I thought he was very clearly arguing that scientists debate evolution itself, which is of course at least a gross distortion of the truth. I understand your point that natural selection isn't the only mechanism of evolution, but I don't think that was the point under discussion. Maybe a better phrase would be something like "...evolution occurs, driven by natural selection...." Gnixon 16:47, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment on my talk page about use of the NPOV tag. Tags like NPOV in my experience are usually added when it is clear that there is considerable debate about a section or article and not just (as in the case I reverted) because of dissatisfaction about one edit. These things are never as clear cut as you propose on WP in my humble experience. MarkThomas 20:01, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry if I jumped the gun, but premature removal of the tag is a pet peeve of mine. I must admit I didn't look carefully at the edit you reverted. Nevertheless, I think in almost all cases its best to leave the tag until a discussion on the talk page reaches consensus to remove it. Best regards, Gnixon 20:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC).

Hello Gnixon. I sympathize with your desire to remove inappropriate threads from Talk:Evolution. You mentioned something about 'Evolution Debates' but in the archive box that appears to be a red link. Did I not look in the right place? EdJohnston 21:12, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks like someone deleted it. I asked Silence if he knows a way to find a record of the deletion. By the way, I like your hat/hab idea. Gnixon 14:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It was deleted by User:Pschemp on 15 March, with the comment 'fork of Talk page'. (I just went into the screen for re-creating the file, and there's a button to press called 'Deletion log'). If you still think it's a good idea to have a special archive, you could open a deletion review. Actually I'm not sure about that, because then you would actually need some kind of consensus as to which items get moved to 'Evolution Debates', which leads to further debate, etc. If an editor chooses to insert a hat/hab, by comparison it seems less intrusive, since the insertion is quite easy to undo and it's also easy to display the boxed content. EdJohnston 15:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I think hat/hab is the way to go. Maybe I'll try to have someone dig up the deleted text so it can be put in the regular archives. Gnixon 15:41, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

The evolution argument is not settled. There are 2 and only ways it can be settled: 1 side admits they are wrong, or both sides admit there is not enough tangible evidence to teach everyone either of these as a scientific fact. ( I am contacting you about your statement to oddball 2002 on the evolution page) Zantaggerung 22:29, 21 March 2007 (UTC)zantaggerung

Hi Zantaggerung. In the past there have been many debates on that talk page about how to present evolution in the Misplaced Pages article, especially considering that many people strongly believe that evolution is wrong/untrue. The reason that Objections to evolution are not given a more prominent place on the page is that most editors see the article as a science article, and virtually all of biological scientists agree that evolution is correct---in fact, it has been described as the cornerstone of biology.

None of this means that evolution is true, but if the article is about a scientific subject, then Misplaced Pages's policy is to base the article on what the scientists think, without giving too much space to other viewpoints (see WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT). The evolution article does have a section on social and religious controversy surrounding evolution, and a link to a very good article, Objections to evolution, which discusses in great detail many of the issues that don't make the Evolution page.

After considering all these things, particularly Misplaced Pages policy issues, editors have reached a consensus that the Evolution article should follow the dominant point of view of biologists, while only briefly mentioning objections to that point of view and linking to longer articles about them. In the archives of the talk page, you can follow long discussions where that consensus was reached, and a FAQ on the talk page summarizes that consensus.

Sorry for the long-winded reply, but I want to be clear about what I meant when I asked people not to ignite "long-settled debates." I certainly didn't mean that evolution's validity or whether we should teach it in schools is "long-settled" within society. In fact, I grew up in a community with very strong objections to evolution, and I went to a school where students are taught that evolution is wrong. I'm well aware that the issue isn't settled! On the other hand, the debate over how to present evolution in the Misplaced Pages article *is* long-settled, and it's unproductive to rehash that debate over and over again.

I hope that makes sense, but I'd be glad to discuss the issue with you further. Best regards, Gnixon 13:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC).

Thanks for clearing that up. I see what you mean now. I was probably jumping into action on shorter notice than I should have been. Will tell oddball 2002 what you said. Zantaggerung 16:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you

I put your page on my watch list, so I'll just get to you through that.

By the way, would you please take a look at my page and respond to what I have posted there? I copied the statement of belief from oddball 2002's page (with his permission),we believe very similarly. Zantaggerung 14:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I read your statement of belief, but I'll have to pass on responding to it---I'm just here to help write encyclopedia articles. It's perfectly appropriate for you to post and discuss such things on your user and user talk pages, but please remember that the rest of Misplaced Pages's discussion pages are just for talking about how to improve articles. If you'd like to discuss your ideas about creation and evolution with other people, you might be interested in the talk.origins website. Gnixon 15:28, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Gnixion, I certainly hope I wasn't owning the Evolution article with my revert of Mandaclair's rewrite. I hope you'll tell me if I start to do act that way!--EveRickert 15:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Nah, I didn't mean you; just speaking generally. You know I'm anxious to keep the article from turning into a jargony textbook. Let's not scare this guy off, though.  :) Gnixon 15:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I know, sorry (though he seems a little thin-skinned for this place, but I do hope he stays). BTW, reply to my comments on my talk page; I generally don't watch other users' talk pages.--EveRickert 16:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

"She", please Eve, not "He"... and please be careful not to confuse my frustration with an overly-complicated protocol of editing via massive consensus, with being "thin-skinned". Many people will choose not to engage in something, not because they "can't take it", but because they don't have time for it. Thanks, Mandaclair 22:58, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I started the gender assumption. Gnixon 23:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

No problem -- Thanks for your comments and advice over the past couple of daysMandaclair 01:58, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

---

Hi. I realize what Misplaced Pages is and how Misplaced Pages works; but the gigantic weakness, it seems, is the free-for-all structure where anyone and everyone with an inquiring mind can chime in and complicate the discussions to reach consensus on topics they may not know a whole lot about in the first place. No offense to anyone here (at all) -- and I realize that Misplaced Pages is often an educational journey and a wholly different type of knowledge-base -- but perhaps it might be more educational (and informative) if there was less "discussion and consensus" standing in the way of information that anyone working professionally in the field could provide.

I guess what I mean to say is that ANYBODY working professionally as an evolutionary biologist for more than 5 years (not just me) could provide some significant improvements to the current Misplaced Pages article, but those professionals often don't have the time to debate, argue, and convince. I don't want to seem arrogant or discourage the wiki-process, but honestly, the tangled spaghetti of "discussion" and "consensus" (among individuals who may not all have the same background or experience) can be really discouraging to people who might have a lot to contribute -- and frankly, nobody I know in my field really has the time to deal with all of that.

This is nothing personal against the Evolution article community. I am aware that all of Misplaced Pages works this way, and again: I am willing to offer help and feedback on this article, but I am not necessarily able to spend a lot of time or energy on the discussion/consensus process, as rewarding as it may be to some.

Kind regards, Mandaclair 18:27, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Trust me, I can appreciate everything you're saying. In fact, I think it's Misplaced Pages's biggest challenge, and I've been very discouraged sometimes by the "tangled spaghetti." The problem seems common to all articles on popular, technical subjects (e.g., Physics or Quantum mechanics), but Evolution is particularly bad because of the creation-evolution controversy. There's no need for you to get deeply involved in the discussions---just make good edits, boldly, and try to briefly explain major changes. Your help will be appreciated, and others can fight the good fight on the talk pages (probably while desperately avoiding some unpleasant bit of real life work). Gnixon 18:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

A couple more tips. I notice you found the four tildes.  :) You can indent with colons, make bullets with asterisks, and start new sections with == New Section ==. You might find it useful to add my talk page to your watch list while this discussion is ongoing, then remove it later. People often keep their User page like a webpage with info about their accordian bands, etc., but they usually use their User_talk pages like message boards and keep the old discussions. I hope you don't think everyone is anal-retentive about "Wikiquette"; just trying to be helpful. All you really need is to feel free to make whatever edits you see fit. Don't be too discouraged by Evolution---Misplaced Pages does better on the less popular articles, where you'll often be amazed at the quality of articles on obscure subjects. Gnixon 18:49, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Gnixon. Thanks for your comments and help. I hope that anything I may have said or contributed on the Evolution Talk page can be useful to the article. However, as a result of what I view as a somewhat uncalled-for tirade on my UserTalk page by one of the active editors on the article, I have decided to withdraw my participation in this process. It is just too difficult and time-consuming to sort through all of the complicated etiquette, protocol, and much worse now -- drama -- that I now understand why there is not more of a professional presence on Misplaced Pages. At this point, if you decide you'd like any further help or assistance on the article, feel free to e-mail me directly. Kind regards, Mandaclair 18:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

You're quite welcome, of course. I think your contributions will be very useful, and thanks for offering to help further. As for the drama, try not to sweat it. Sometimes you just have to roll your eyes and keep doing your thing. Most people around here have good intentions, but misunderstandings get magnified on messageboards and in emails. You know, you could probably get by around here even if you never responded to a message and totally ignored the "community" aspects. Good luck and best regards, Gnixon 18:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

Yes, well, I just went over to Orangemarlin's page to post the same message, and was horrified (yet amused) to read the mutual argumentative meltdown the two of you had on his Talk page... it's utter lunacy around here! How do you folks get any work done this way? When I was on fieldwork in Madagascar in 1998, I learned several of the native proverbs used in daily speech -- one of my favorite ones translates roughly to, "too many people are like eels in the mud, swimming this way and that". I think the sentiment is one of chaos with no sense, purpose, or direction, and for some reason it comes to mind right now. In any case, I am not passing judgement, I am just simply amazed at the *RATIO* of discussion+drama here, compared to the output of *quality product* (the article). I don't doubt that there are many skilled writers and intelligent minds here, but it's a wonder that anything gets done at all, with the whole sociology of the thing. I now wonder whether or not a Misplaced Pages article is anything more than this: the version that is favored by whichever editor who is most active and diligent about making their own edits and deleting those of others. Interesting. Well, no judgement or hard feelings... and as I said, the article as it stands is not necessarily *bad*, it's just a bit jumbled, disorganized, leaves out a few key points, and could stress a few others. In any case, you ought to be proud of the work you do on it, and the time you invest! Kind regards, Mandaclair 18:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Haha, let's just say that after the ensuing storm following too-hasty reversion of your edits, I was a little sensitive to the subject. I've been concerned about the "eels in the mud" problem since I started here (see my first-ever post above), and it's caused me to take long breaks from Misplaced Pages. The drama/discussion ratio is pretty incredible, but I'll mention again that Evolution is about as bad as it gets. I've also been pretty amazed and influenced by how well it's often managed by more experienced editors than me---there are lessons here for all collaborative efforts. I hope articles aren't just the vision of the most recent or most persistent editor. Exactly that issue fuels my increasing interest in working to build consensus without stifling improvements. By the way, I definitely think there are real-journal articles to be written about Misplaced Pages sociology, despite how often the eels frustrate me and the "Wikiquette" makes my eyes roll. Your praise is kind and appreciated, but I'm not sure I'm proud of the time I've invested. In fact, I think you've shamed me into self-imposing a Misplaced Pages moratorium until I've finished that unpleasant bit of work. The NSF thanks you.  ;-) Cheers, Gnixon 19:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

<arbitrarily removed indents>Um, "mutual argumentative meltdown?" I don't think so. That was just a minor communications issue, where Gnixon thought I was doing one thing, and I thought I was doing another. He and I are on the same side of the issue (I think, I hope, please?????). You should read the storm that brews when a Creationist starts pushing their POV. Then it gets fun. This was just two people on the same side stepping on each other's toes. I'm a terrible dancer. Orangemarlin 00:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Misplaced Pages pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. You may also click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! HagermanBot 13:55, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Haha. Sorry, HargermanBot. I slipped up and forgot a couple times in a row, but notice I immediately corrected the omissions! Thanks for all your good work!!! Gnixon 13:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC) Gnixon 13:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC) Gnixon 13:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

uhhhhh, Gnixon...I'm not sure how to say this, but I think that was an automated message.  :) No one is going to read the reply. Orangemarlin 23:58, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Marvel at my sense of humor.  ;-) Gnixon 04:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Just so you know, I liked most of your edits to the article!!!!! Of course, I still think that one sentence implies that most religions are opposed to evolution, but I'll live!  :) Anyways, good job. Orangemarlin 21:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Just a suggestion and this isn't an opinion either way on the validity of the case you posted a short time ago to the administrator's incident noticeboard...when you bring a case to the noticeboard, please make sure to list all the "diffs" and any other linked, relevant evidence so that the administrators won't have to search around to find it. Cla68 02:07, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm willing to do so if it will help, but as you might imagine, I'm pretty weary of dealing with this whole thing. Perhaps I'll give a few examples now, more upon request. I figured glancing at the talk pages of articles I've linked to, my and the other editor's talk pages, and our histories would demonstrate my point pretty quickly. Thanks for the note! Gnixon 02:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Gnixon. I don't appreciate Orangemarlin's attitude; however, I can't exactly block him for intent to continue disruption. If he continues to edit war, specifically in violation of the three-revert rule, report this to WP:AN3RR. Your main complaint was about his personal attacks on you, for which he shows no remorse. If these continue, definitely post on ANI again or contact me if necessary. Personal attacks after warnings aren't acceptable. Heimstern Läufer 03:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, thanks much. Gnixon 04:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Sheesh I imagine he feels justified by part of this discussion, where another editor comments that he likes my extensive refactoring of the Talk:Evolution but mentions refactoring should have broad consensus. I guess I'm officially being stalked. Gnixon 04:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Gnixon, I am wondering if I could get some help on a project. I am hosting a vote on my talk page to try to find out if other people agree with me that Christianity as the world refers to it today is really more than one religion. Whether or not you agree with me, ( I want you and everyone elses vote, but thats not why I am making this post) could you help me coordinate the vote, maybe you would know how to detect sock puppeteers or other ruffians. And if the vote comes out positive, would you help me edit the Christianity article? You obviously dont have to, but I thought I would consult someone more experienced than me that I know a little about. I am also going to try find someone with a lot of awards and see if I can get some help from a master. Thank you! Zantaggerung 15:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Z. I'm not sure hosting a vote is the best solution here. Polls and votes are often a poor substitute for discussion, and I think that may be especially true in this case because the issue you're raising is largely one of semantics. A lot of times, things like these can be resolved to everyone's satisfaction with just a little rephrasing. Maybe you could say something like "Christianity encompasses a wide variety of religious beliefs, most often including ... but differing on ...." Know what I mean? Gnixon 16:21, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I think what he is trying to ask is if there a large enough difference between Christians to call it an entirely different religion. I will respond that I do not think so. Denominations cover the description well enough. There is a large difference between Protestantism and Catholicism, but I would not venture to call it another religion. I think it is the matter of the source. Christianity come from the Bible and ultimately Christ, Islam comes from Muhammad through multiple books, Judaism come from the Torah, Buddhism comes from Budha, Confuscism comes from Confuscious, etc. You could claim that many Christian denominations have deviated from the source of the Bible, but all of us still claim it has the foundation of our faith.--JEF 01:29, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I see you deleted the section about discredited theories, referring to the talk page. I agree that the section probably didn't belong in the article, but I couldn't find the discussion you were referring to. What was the title of the discussion, or where is it archived? I didn't read through all of the archives, but searching for "discredited" didn't yield any useful result. --Itub 07:49, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I can't find anything on the talk page, either. Weird. Thanks for calling me on that. Maybe I had come across this discussion: Talk:Physics/wip#Fringe. I really thought I remembered more discussion about it. Think we should bring it up on the talk page? Gnixon 13:57, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry too much. I think such a list might be useful, but not on the main Physics article. These theories are already mentioned in places such as history of physics and history of thermodynamics. There's also an article about superseded scientific theories. I just wrote you a message because I had contributed a bit to that section in the physics article and was surprised at first to see it deleted. But after thinking about it further, I realized that it was probably not worth having that section. --Itub 14:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

it looks like we have some topics of interest in common. i'm an electrical engineer who does DSP on audio/music signals for a living. although i'm pretty far left-of-center politically and philosophically (i'm male and my hair is longer than most women, i worked as a volunteer on the Howard Dean campaign, i like cannibis, i like prog rock and other alternative music, etc.), i am disturbed by the sense of entitlement that some (liberals) have here to make Misplaced Pages a place that is comfortable to them (at the expense of comfort for persons on the other end of the spectrum) and reflect life as they see it. i have gotten into a few scrapes as a result. i have often been categorized as a homophobic, conservative, pro-ID, i can't remember what else. it's always a dichotomy here, try to tone down the blatent liberal, pro-gay, whatever bias in some article and they immediately place you at the opposite end of the spectrum.

i dunno what other articles i should get involved in, i don't want to spread myself so thin ("like butter scraped over too much toast" - Bilbo Baggins). what articles or talk pages do you suggest? i might pick one or two from the list but i need to reduce my wiki-participation because it will take too much of my time.

best, r b-j 18:56, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I was close! I had you as a physicist. My throw-my-hands-in-the-air moment was when I was debating an article's introduction with an editor you've bumped heads with before. Although he had previously praised me because we were "on the same side," he later decided he'd seen through my devious ruse, triumphantly "outed" me, and from then on dismissed the rest of my comments as coming from a "whiny little creationist." What makes me really sick is that there's not just one crazy editor out there causing problems---there's a group of them, banding together, some with administrator rights. I've found that if I stay calm, avoid inciting them, and appeal to administrators when necessary, then I can make some progress, but I'm really not sure whether it's worth it. Misplaced Pages is great, but I do have a real life, and I really don't have time for this if it's just going to be a bunch of bickering with the POV-pushers and the uninformed. I was thinking you might check out Creation-evolution controversy and Objections to evolution, which have a lot of potential to be good articles if only we could purge the bias. I'm trying to stay optimistic.  :) Gnixon 19:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all, before I write anything else, I want to officially and publicly state my apologies for being uncivil to you. In my own defense, I did not, at the time, believe I was being uncivil, but I think I got more and more irritated over the days, and I did not recognize how upset I was with you. That is no excuse. As someone whom I admire once said, "once you come to your own defense, you're usually guilty." That being said, I still think you are sneaking in Creationist bias into articles. I frankly don't care if you are or not, although being honest about it helps everyone put conversations into context. But that doesn't matter. You keep claiming that you are trying to move everyone to a neutral bias, yet the little things you do, in fact, are not neutral. The whole Richard Dawkins is an atheist discussion absolutely is a POV description of him.

Apology accepted and appreciated. Likewise, I apologize especially for jumping the gun on ownership accusations on the Objections intro and for accusations of stalking. As for the bias issue, it's clear you think I'm trying to add Creationist bias, while I think you're trying to add anti-Creationist bias; equally clearly, we both think we're just trying to keep things neutral. We're going to continue to clash there---que sera, sera. I want to make sure you know why I reacted so strongly when you began rudely we can agree on that adverb, I think accusing me of being a Creationist. Please consider how sensitive I've become to my opinion that well-intentioned editors, who spend much of their time battling creationist vandals on the Evolution page, are overreacting on other articles to the extent that they have introduced serious anti-Creationist bias. An analogy: I felt as though I was the only one of a group of adolescent boys defending homosexuals, and in response they started calling me gay. I'm just saying that's how I felt. Gnixon 23:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

You have accused me of stalking you. I'm not sure where you got that idea but I watch nearly every single article on Evolution and Creationism. I was one of the two original authors of some of the articles where we've "butted heads". But you have to go way back to see my edits (or they may not show up because these articles were written in a sandbox first). I try to stay out of the substantive edits of articles I write, just to get other POV's into the article. But as for my stalking you, I could care less who you are, one way or another. I didn't like your edits, not because they were written by Gnixon, but because I believed that they were poorly written (in a couple of cases) or highly POV in others. You attacked back as if I were attacking you, when I was about as unemotional as one can get with the edits. In fact, in the case of whether religions supported or didn't support evolution, I assumed a high degree of good faith in you at the time, and just though you erred in your edits. I didn't think anyone, either on the Evolution or Creationist sides of the discussion would write something like that, so I thought I was doing a good deed. You attacked me for it, as if it was a personal issue.

I apologize for the "stalking" accusation, which was unfounded. I also apologize for "attacking back" first, on the Objections intro, when I misunderstood your objection to my edit. I do suspect you're swift to check my edits, but frankly, I'd be a hypocrite to object to that. I'll admit I'm wounded by "poorly written"---I hope I can apply the excuse that I was going out of my way to accommodate other editors' NPOV concerns. Much of my efforts on Misplaced Pages consists of trying to improve readability, usually by making things shorter and more concise---cutting the fluff, if you will. In fact, I think that's a big part of why we clash---I'm always trying to keep things concise and to the point, whereas my opinion is that you often insert a lot of clauses and extra sentences just to make sure everyone knows that the creationists are wrong. Gnixon 23:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the Objections incident that sparked all this was a legitimate content issue over facts about religious support for evolution, but it was heavily colored by our different perspectives on NPOV. Gnixon 23:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

While we're on the Objections incident, there was another issue that got me riled up. I honestly think you tend to pass judgement on what others write after only briefly skimming it. In our debates, you've often in my opinion responded as though I wrote something entirely different from what was on the page. It can be very frustrating when someone seems to be constantly straw-manning you. It relates to the articles because I'm sensitive to some editors' resistance to change and improvements. For example, what's-her-name on Evolution reverted Mandaclair's edits to the intro *far* too hastily, I suspect just because she saw all the changes and freaked out that they weren't discussed first. I don't like that way of working here. I'm a big fan of "be bold," and I always try to evaluate edits on their merits, not on the amount of red. Now, I don't mean to be making accusations, but you quickly reverted my Social and religious controversy edit (maybe for good reasons), without much comment about the content. That and the Mandaclair brouhaha happened just before your quick reversions of my Objections edit, so I was a little sensitive to the issue. Little did I know that we had other, more serious issues between us.  :) Gnixon 23:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, I admit to skimming. Look at the ID discussion page, I go away from my computer for a few hours, and there must be 50,000 new words written. It's incredible. I try to find the key points. After 15 years of schooling and training, I have to admit that skimming is what I need to do. When I see something that catches my eye, I do read in detail. I try to only respond to what I've read thoroughly. Then of course, there are times I take age-old method of answering the question that I want to answer. Politicians are really good at answering some other question. LOL. Otherwise, I'd smoke a peace pipe with you, but it causes cancer. I'd give you a virtual hug, but I wouldn't want to have you accused of being gay.  :) Orangemarlin 20:41, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

You've accused me of other things like foisting my POV. Well, read all of my edits as opposed to the talk pages. My edits, in general, strive to be as NPOV as possible. My discussion items are strident, because some of these arguments are, to use my teenage daughters vernacular, lame. The ID discussion is ridiculous, but obviously you think I'm blowing smoke. That's your right, and you can hold it dear to your heart, because that's what makes Wiki better. The strident discussions happen on the talk pages, consensus is formed, and then the article is slowly improved. As I've stated before, and I mean this with all due respect, you have a tendency to edit first, get consensus (maybe) down the road. Even still, after a few editors have stood firm on the Dawkins atheist issue, you believe you are right and we are all wrong.

It's true, I think even though you may try to be NPOV, you end up inserting a lot of anti-Creationist bias. Obviously we both think the other side is crazy in the Dawkins and ID debates. I'll just have to keep trying to convince you of the error of your ways.  ;-) I have no problem with strident debate, but let's both try to keep the line of civility in mind. You're entirely right about the Dawkins thing---even after other editors have stood firm, I still believe I'm right and you're all wrong. (Of course, there have been voices agreeing with me along the way.) I've said before and I'll say it again---these articles attract a group of editors who feel very strongly about proving creationists wrong, and they tend to band together with the effect of maintaining a systemic bias. On the other hand, I think most of them are fundamentally reasonable people, and reasonable people tend to eventually listen to reason. We'll see.... Gnixon 23:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Lastly, in your attempt to get me blocked, you must not read what I write very carefully. I was upset with your edits and the accusations you threw at me. Other than "outing" you as a Creationist (admittedly a poor choice of words, which fall under the blanket apology I set forth above), I never called you names. Have you not read some of the things written on here? You need to have a thicker skin. I was livid with your attempt to get administrative action, not because you don't have a right to do it, but because you made no attempt to find a compromise with me. You knew that I did not appreciate your edits, and you did not appreciate mine, and so forth. Yes, I probably should have made the first attempt at deescalation, but you made every attempt to escalate it. Obviously, what I did was not exactly appropriate, but it hardly warranted an RAI. And frankly, the best thing happened, when a couple of administrators gave some sage advice to "chill out."

Aside from the "outing," which I found in and of itself sufficiently offensive to ask for help, there was also the "whiny little creationist" bit of name-calling. That pretty much settled it for me. We both escalated and provoked, and I'm sorry for my share of it. I agree the best thing happened. Gnixon 23:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Your use of the administrative route is rather telling of your character. Almost every "evolution" editor on here (if we are to take sides) does not start any administrative action, except with sockpuppets (who are just the lowest form of life, barely evolved from paramecium). Why? Because most of us believe in debate and discussion, and that at times things can get out of hand. If I threw the F-bomb at you, I think that might deserve a kick in the rear. Trust me, I was using the F-bomb, but luckily it didn't reach the typing fingers!!!! My point on that is it appears to be a bit childish. You are smart, argumentative, and strong-willed. Do you think you endeavor trust when you do things like that? Do you not think trust is an important issue to build consensus?

Aaaaaand... we're on to character attacks. Sigh. I'm convinced my course of action was justifiable, but I have no intent to go further with it now that we seem to have chilled things out a bit. On a lighter note, trust me---all possible expletives reached the ears of those in my living room that night. I've explained why I was so offended by your attacks, and I viewed them as an unjustified attempt to undermine my credibility that could not be allowed to continue. Gnixon 23:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

These are all my words of wisdom, of non-wisdom and of just plain ranting. I think you think I dislike you. On the contrary, other than your being a bit thin-skinned, you are a worthy foil in building these articles. However, you're not always right, and I'll tell you the one characteristic that appears over and over again in your writing is that you're right, and we're wrong. You're going to say the same thing about me. Except truly read back on some of my edits. When I'm proven wrong on a point, I say, "yes, you're right, I'm wrong, I agree."

Dislike? Nah, really I never suspected that. I just can't understand why an otherwise apparently rational person fails to see reason on this one issue, and I think it's extremely damaging to Misplaced Pages. I'm sure you feel about the same way. Others in my life have commented on how I argue fiercely, but how when I'm convinced I'm wrong, I admit it. On the other hand, as I often tell my significant other, I am always right.  :) Gnixon 23:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

One more thing, just in case it's forgotten. I do apologize and do ask for your forgiveness in the attacks and counterattacks of several days ago. However, do not think for a minute that I think you're right on anything!!!!  :) OK, maybe one or two things. Orangemarlin 22:24, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your apology, and I certainly apologize for when I've escalated unnecessarily. Let's blame a lot of it on the nature of discussion boards, which amplify misunderstandings. Many things about us are similar---our editing style, our scientific background, our respect for the principles of civil debate, our interest in keeping articles NPOV---and I'm glad we've been able to work well together on Evolution. I think there's a mutual respect between us. For all of those reasons, it's especially frustrating (to both of us, I'm sure) that we disagree so strongly on what constitutes a neutral, unbiased article. We seem to have deep differences there, and I'm sure we're destined to continue to clash. I won't speculate on where that will end up, but let me say on the record that I hope we can build a wall so that, if necessary, we fight on some articles and edits, but on others, where it's clear those fights have no bearing, we forget any ill will and work together. I'll do my very best to keep things civil on the bloody side of the wall. Now I'm going to go back through your comments and respond more specifically. Cheers, Gnixon 22:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC).

Your POV pushing has reached my tolerance limit. Since my nature is tell someone where to place such thinking, and that is not acceptable here, I cannot continue editing your articles. But I know what you're doing, and others will too. There are cooler headed individuals who will stand up to you. I don't have that kind of patience with an individual such as your self, obviously intelligent, but with an agenda that is blind to what others believe. You are arrogant, loud and obtrusive--assuming good faith, maybe you think that's the way to force whatever belief set you have onto these articles, but I'm not a psychiatrist, nor do I play one on TV. You do whatever you want wherever you want, and if anyone stands up to you, your response is telling of your character. I do know who you are (and I don't mean your name or location, I mean your character and objectives), and in time, so will others. Getting me out of the way is no accomplishment, because there are others much more intelligent and strong-willed who won't let your POV invade too much. My character flaw is that I have the patience of gnat. I have no patience with your attitude. Orangemarlin 01:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

See you again soon. Gnixon 01:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC)