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(Allah's own Turk) Khusrau to lie buried next to him. ... Amir Khusrau insisted (Allah's own Turk) Khusrau to lie buried next to him. ... Amir Khusrau insisted
on adding the suffix 'Dehlavi' (ie of Delhi) to his name as a sentimental ... ] 20:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC) on adding the suffix 'Dehlavi' (ie of Delhi) to his name as a sentimental ... ] 20:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
::::Sources need to be verifiable. That is at the least, they should have is an author. Note again the sources. The source Muåssasah-i Farhangī-i Minṭaqagahī is not even an scholar's name. The fact is publishing does not necessarily mean the publisher endorses viewpoints. What matters is the scholar who writes the article. In this case, the scholar is a Turkish scholar and his academic credentials are unknown. The second source does not have an author's name. Ministry of Broadcasting and Information of India is not a scholarly source. It requires at least an author who is an expert in the literature. Misplaced Pages requires scholarly sources. Read the article on original research. First comes primary sources, then secondary sources written by renowned experts and finally teriatary sources like Britannica. So basically you have two sources: 1) Ministry of Broadcasting and information of India.. this does not have an author and is not an academic source. 2) A Turkish writer in a journal co-sponsered as you say by three governments (Turkey, Iran, India). So it is sponsered by Turkish government as you as well. So it is not neutral. Finally no one denied Amir Khosrow had a Turkish father (some afghan scholars do), but what is important is where does it say 1) his native language was Turkish. 2) He was proud of his ethnic origin (something un-sufi like). And indeed if he had any sort of ethnic pride as you claim, he would write a verse in Turkish. Sufis are univeralists. As per the title Turkullah, it was a title conferred on to him by Chishti and it means ''beloved of God'' as one of the meanings of Turk is beloved in Sufi literature. ] 20:54, 8 April 2007 (UTC) ::::Sources need to be verifiable. That is at the least, they should have is an author. Note again the sources. The source Muåssasah-i Farhangī-i Minṭaqagahī is not even an scholar's name. The fact is publishing does not necessarily mean the publisher endorses viewpoints. What matters is the scholar who writes the article. In this case, the scholar is a Turkish scholar and his academic credentials are unknown. The second source does not have an author's name. Ministry of Broadcasting and Information of India is not a scholarly source. It requires at least an author who is an expert in the literature. Misplaced Pages requires scholarly sources. Read the article on original research. First comes primary sources, then secondary sources written by renowned experts and finally teriatary sources like Britannica. So basically you have two sources: 1) Ministry of Broadcasting and information of India.. this does not have an author and is not an academic source. 2) A Turkish writer in a journal co-sponsered as you say by three governments (Turkey, Iran, India). So it is sponsered by Turkish government as you as well. So it is not neutral. Finally no one denied Amir Khosrow had a Turkish father (some afghan scholars do), but what is important is where does it say 1) his native language was Turkish. 2) He was proud of his ethnic origin (something un-sufi like). And indeed if he had any sort of ethnic pride as you claim, he would write a verse in Turkish. Sufis are univeralists. As per the title Turkullah, it was a title conferred on to him by Chishti and it means ''beloved of God'' as one of the meanings of Turk is beloved in Sufi literature. ] 20:54, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

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Isn't Amir Khusro also credited with "inventing" the sitar (and some other musical instruments)? Sarabseth 20:57, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Evidently, the inventor of the Sitar is a different Amir Khusro. I have added a section regarding this in called "Amir Khusro and the origin of the Sitar" in the main article. Kamran Saeed | Talk.

Thanks! He is also sometimes credited with "inventing" the tabla. Do you know anything about that? Sarabseth 28 June 2005 19:58 (UTC)

That is correct. Amir Khusro is said to have fashioned the Tabla as a "split" version of the traditional Indian drum, the Pakhawaj. I have thus far not been able to find any definitive or usable material on the subject, though. Kamran

Do you think there's any harm in adding this to the entry for now: "He is credited with fashioning the Tabla as a "split" version of the traditional Indian drum, the Pakhawaj." Sarabseth 3 July 2005 11:46 (UTC)

I did not happen upon this page until now. Sorry for the delay in my reply. I think there is no harm in adding the line for the tabla in the form you suggest, until somebody comes up with more definitive material to either confirm or refute the statement. Should there be a separate section for it, or should the line just be added to the section on the sitar? The section could be renamed to something like "Amir Khusro and the origins of the Sitar and the Tabla". What do you think? Kamran Saeed | Talk.

I changed the section title and added the tabla sentence. I put it before the sitar paragraph; reads better that way, I think. Sarabseth 12:53, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Looks good! I made a minor edit to correct a couple of typos. Thanks! Kamran 21:51, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Invention of Tabla and Sitar

There is no controversy that Tabla was invented by Amir Kusro by splitting the traditional indian drum. However there is lots of confusion about Sitar. Sitar existed before Amir Khusro in some form, was reshaped by him, and now is in a form that was reshaped in 18th century. The reason for confusion being that the word Sitar is itself confusing. The word has persian origin and can sound Seh-Taar (3 strings) or See-Taar (30 strings). To add to confusion, there was a legendary sitar player named Khusro Khan in the 18th century, exactly the same time the sitar underwent modern shape. Maybe the 18th century sitar player Amir Khusro got credit for the modern sitar and then the 13th century Sufi Amir Khuro was confused with it.Hassanfarooqi 13:08, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Hindvi or Hindi?

There are two entries in "Works" which use the word Hindvi. Should this perhaps be Hindi? Sarabseth 14:21, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I think Hindvi is the term for the dialects of central and northern India, basically like Hindustani. Mar de Sin 20:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Hindawi is the term most commonly used by contemporary sources to describe the range of languages spoken from the Indus to Bengal. Hindii is a word of more recent provenance. See, for example, Lelyveld, D. (1994). "Zubān-e Urdū- Mu‘allā’ and the Idol of Linguistic Origins." The Annual of Urdu Studies 9. I would also suggest that you remove the reference to the Ḳhāliq Bārī as its attribution has been shown by Ḥafiẕ Maḥmūd Shīrānī, in the frontispiece to the 1773-4 A.D. Anjuman-e Taraqqī-ye Urdū edition of the text, to be apocryphal. The work instead appears to have been written in 1622, and the author went by the name Ẓiyā ud-Dīn Ḳhusrau. The actual intended title of the glossary was Ḥafż ul-Lisān. See Shīrānī, Ḥ. M. (1944). "Dībācha-ye duvum ." Ḥafż ul-Lisān (a.k.a. Ḳhāliq Bārī). Ḥ. M. Shīrānī. Delhi, Anjumman-e Taraqqi-e Urdū. --Haklu 15:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Yurikbot

This is getting really annoying! I tried before to get through to Yurik, and I've just tried again. If this happens again, can someone else please try to get his attention? --Sarabseth 02:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Everything is as it suppose to, see my talk. --Yurik 05:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Yurik's reply: "The bot is doing everything correctly: it replaces a link hi:अमीर खुसरो with hi:आमिर खुसरो because the first one does not exist -- its a redirect! You never want to link a page to a redirect as that redirect may change at any point, which would cause conflicts later on. If the first title is the proper one, you should move the hi: article to the new name, which would cause a bot (ANY interwiki bot, not just mine) to update all referencing pages."

Can someone who knows that they're doing please make the recommended change? Thanks! --Sarabseth 12:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Transliteration

I'm gonna go ahead and change the Hindi translation to the more scholarly IAST or Library of Calcutta Romanization. Thanks. I would really appreciate it if someone would give the Hindi for the Hindi riddles. Mar de Sin 20:25, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I will also later add the Urdu alphabet version of the Hindvi poetry, as that is what the source had originally. Mar de Sin 20:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Bollywood Song

Does anyone have any objection if we take out the bollywood song, and just retain the lyrics, translation and discussion of Zee Haal-e-Miskeen? --Sarabseth 02:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I don't think a mutilated version of Amir's poetry by any wood should appear in this article in the first place.Hassanfarooqi 18:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Khusro was a Turk and spoke Turkish

his origin, self-perception and spoken languages do not seem to be adequately represented in the article. Here are a few sources that clarify the issue:

Dr. Iraj Bashiri. "Originally a Turk, Amir Khusrau spoke Persian fluently and was familiar with Arabic, Hindi, and Sanskrit."

See: , .

Amir Khusrau: Memorial Volume - Page 1, by AmД«r Khusraw DihlavД« - 1975 - 416 pages "Amir Khusrau was proud of his lineage as a "Turk-e-Hindustani", and tradition credits him with knowledge of Turkish, Arabic, Persian and the vernaculars of"

Amir Khusrau as a Genius - Page 9 by Ṣabāḥuddīn ʻAbdurraḥmān - 1982 - 125 pages "Khwaja is believed to have said very often to Khusrau, "O Turk! I may get disgusted of my self but never of you". (Munis-u'l-Arwah, by Princess Jahan Ara, MSS, Shibli Academy, Khazinat-u'l-Asfiya"

The Case for Pakistan - Page 117 by M. Rafique Afzal - 1979 - 191 pages "Amir Khusrau (14th century), a Turk of mixed parentage and one of the greatest figures in the realm of Persian literature and poetry"

The BДЃgМІбє– O BahДЃr: Or, The Garden and the Spring - Page vii by Khusrau - 1852 - 251 pages "His grandfather, who bore the name of Turk, came to ... His son Amir Khusrau succeeded to the royal favour, and enjoyed the confidence and patronage of ..."

The Visva-bharati Quarterly - Page 157 by Visva-Bharati, Rabindranath Tagore, Hirendranath Datta, Sir Surendranath Tagore - 1923 "725 AH ), "the Indian Turk," stands as one of the leading figures whose appreciation of India, her sciences"

Marx, Great October, India, and the Future - Page 96 by Hirendranath Mukerjee - 1984 "in the 14th century, Amir Khusrau, court poet of the ... , a fine, many-sided genius in love with India (an 'Indian Turk' he called himself) looked about"

Islamic Culture - Page 219 by Islamic Cultural Board, Muhammad Asad, Academic and Cultural Publications Charitable Trust (Hyderabad, India), Marmaduke William Pickthall - 1927 "Amir Khusrau himself was the son of a Turk-ish father and a Rajput (Rawal) mother, and was born _Jn Patiala. He lost his father early, and his mother's"

Indian Literary Criticism: Theory and Interpretation - Page 92 by G. N. Devy - 2002 - 446 pages "... AMIR KHUSRAU Amir Khusrau (AD 1253-1325) was of Turkish origin;" --Weiszman 22:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

اَگر فِردؤس بر رُو-ائے زمین اَست،" ہمین اَست-او ہمین اَست-او ہمین اَست۔

Agar firdaus bar roo-e zameen ast, Hameen ast-o hameen ast-o hameen ast.

If there is paradise on face of the earth, It is this, it is this, it is this (Kashmir)

check: this couplet is thought to be due to mughal emperor shahjahaan and to refer to the valley of kashmir"

>>>>>>>>>>How Can it be due to Shah Jahan when khusrow lived in the 11th century???

source

To User:Weiszman. can you please write the source where he says he is proud to be hindustani-turk? and also the source where he speaks Turkish (what kind?)? Since you have the source, please use exact wording. One of the sources available I looked at does not mention anything about pride. --alidoostzadeh 19:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Here is from Google books:

Journal of the Regional Cultural Institute - Page 13 by Muåssasah-i Farhangī-i Minṭaqagahī̊ - 1967 VIII Erdogan MERCIL Journal of the REGIONAL CULTURAL INSTITUTE Winter & Spring 1976 AMIR KHOSROW AND HIS PRIDE IN BEING A TURK ...

Amir Khusrau: Memorial Volume - Page 1 by Amīr Khusraw Dihlavī - 1975 - 416 pages Amir Khusrau was proud of his lineage as a "Turk-e-Hindustani", and tradition credits him with knowledge of Turkish, Arabic, Persian and the vernaculars of ... Snippet view - About this book Weiszman 19:53, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but the author of that article's is Turkish (his first name is Erdogan Mercill) and he is from Turkey. You need a neutral third party source. Or else there are afghan scholars who have many views which are not scholarly as well. --alidoostzadeh 19:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
There are two sources, one by Muåssasah-i Farhangī-i Minṭaqagahī (editor), and one a 1975 book of Amir Khusrau by the Indian Government. Both sources are major. Also, there are many Persian, Indian, Pakistani sources listed on the Misplaced Pages article about Amir Khusrau, which doesn't raise objections. Erdogan Mercil is Turkish, not obviously not Hindustani Turkish, and the latter were not of the same tribal origin as the Anatolian Turks who were Oghuz. And he is just one of the authors under the editorship of Iranian professor Muåssasah-i Farhangī-i Minṭaqagahī, and with the co-sponsorhsip of the Iranian government. So the source is balanced and favorable towards all the Muslim countries of the region. Don't forget Misplaced Pages's policy on NPOV and inclusion of all major sources reflecting different points of view. Weiszman 20:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
The policy does not allow for nationalistic writing. You need multiple neutral sources to verify a statement. The source by Erdogan Mercil is not neutral. The second source does not even have an author (which is needed for proper citiation) but I would not be suprised to be the same author. Neither source says his native language was Turkish. Indeed I would probably think it was Indic language since he was born in India. Also you need a primary source about the languages he knew. thanks --alidoostzadeh 20:20, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Sir there are no such requirements in Misplaced Pages about needing to have an author (hello, what about Britannica's articles and other encyclopedia's or journals like The Economist which often don't have any authors listed). Both sources are different, and neither of them is Turkish. In case of Erdogan Mercill he is not a Hindustani Turk and is not the editor of that book, which is an Iranian professor. So both sources are neutral and unbiased, and definitely not nationalist. Meanwhile, other soruces cover his knowledge of Turkish language. Weiszman 20:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Quick note: Misplaced Pages's policies are independent from Britannica --Rayis 20:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually having an author of the source is the most basic princicple. As per Erdogan Mercil he is not a Hindustani Turk.. He is a Turk from Turkey. Thus his writing is not neutral even if it is published in an co-sponsered Iranian journal. Else I can bring the writing of an Afghan writer with a totally different POV about Amir Khusrow. Thus we need western scholars to discuss the topic. You need neutral sources to verify the statement. Also where is the neutral source that he knew Turkish and it was his native language? I am assuming Hindi was his native language because of the location he was born and he has writings in Hindi but not Turkish (which dialect?) All of this needs primary sources or neutral secondary sources. One of your source is from Erdogan Mercil (not neutral). The other source does not even identify an author. An identification of an author is a definitely a necessity for proper citation. --alidoostzadeh 20:33, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

and not only Britannica but other publications are independent of Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages's policy is to cover all verifiable, major or academic claims, and that's what has been done, whilst some unexisting rules are being applied by my interlocutor. You can bring any verifiable and academic Afghani references in English you want per Misplaced Pages policy. Both sources I've cited are neutral -- both were not published by a Turk (whether Anatolian or otherwise) or in Turkey (or other Turkic states). One source is directly from the Ministry of Broadcasting and Information of India, a state which opposes Turkey for its support of Pakistan (and this source states Amir Khusrau was proud of his lineage as a "Turk-e-Hindustani"), whilst the other is a book edited by an Iranian (Persian?) scholar Muåssasah-i Farhangī-i Minṭaqagahī in a journal that is co-sponsored by Iranian as well as Indian and Turkish governments. So it is very neutral and objective, and not nationalistic. These are simply not fair remarks by you towards these authors and sources.

Not sure which dialect of Turkish, you can find that perhaps, along with which dialect of Persian he wrote and spoke in.

Here's another good reference: Amir Khusrau: Memorial Volume - Page 182 by Amīr Khusraw Dihlavī - 1975 - 416 pages There he also enjoyed the company of his dear friend Hasan Dehlavi. ... master was also deeply attached to our poet and addressed him as the Turk of God. ...

Hakeem Abdul Hameed Felicitation Volume: Presented to Hakeem Abdul Hameed on His 75th Birthday - Page 171 by Abdul Hameed, Mālik Rām - 1982 - 311 pages (Allah's own Turk) Khusrau to lie buried next to him. ... Amir Khusrau insisted on adding the suffix 'Dehlavi' (ie of Delhi) to his name as a sentimental ... Weiszman 20:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Sources need to be verifiable. That is at the least, they should have is an author. Note again the sources. The source Muåssasah-i Farhangī-i Minṭaqagahī is not even an scholar's name. The fact is publishing does not necessarily mean the publisher endorses viewpoints. What matters is the scholar who writes the article. In this case, the scholar is a Turkish scholar and his academic credentials are unknown. The second source does not have an author's name. Ministry of Broadcasting and Information of India is not a scholarly source. It requires at least an author who is an expert in the literature. Misplaced Pages requires scholarly sources. Read the article on original research. First comes primary sources, then secondary sources written by renowned experts and finally teriatary sources like Britannica. So basically you have two sources: 1) Ministry of Broadcasting and information of India.. this does not have an author and is not an academic source. 2) A Turkish writer in a journal co-sponsered as you say by three governments (Turkey, Iran, India). So it is sponsered by Turkish government as you as well. So it is not neutral. Finally no one denied Amir Khosrow had a Turkish father (some afghan scholars do), but what is important is where does it say 1) his native language was Turkish. 2) He was proud of his ethnic origin (something un-sufi like). And indeed if he had any sort of ethnic pride as you claim, he would write a verse in Turkish. Sufis are univeralists. As per the title Turkullah, it was a title conferred on to him by Chishti and it means beloved of God as one of the meanings of Turk is beloved in Sufi literature.
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