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Articles on March 2024 referendums and amendment bills

Each bill put to a referendum has its own article. We also have pages for dates on which there is more than one referendum. See, for example, 2015 Irish constitutional referendums, with the Thirty-fourth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland (marriage equality) and the Thirty-fifth Amendment of the Constitution Bill 2015 (age of eligibility for president).

Should we be following that approach with the March 2024 Irish constitutional referendums (month included in the title because of the scheduled, if not finalised, referendum on the patent court in June)? In that way, keeping detail on the wording and campaigns on the separate pages of Thirty-ninth Amendment of the Constitution (The Family) Bill 2023 and Fortieth Amendment of the Constitution (Care) Bill 2023. On the other hand, given how much the campaigns will have in common, it might make sense to give more of the details on the campaign and support for or opposition to the two proposals on the referendums article, rather than the separate amendment articles. Previous cases where there were two or more on related topics, such as 1968 Irish constitutional referendums or November 1992 Irish constitutional referendums give guidance, although needn't determine the approach.

Bogger, Ccferrie, Spideog and Spleodrach, who have made substantive contributions to the referendums article, might have a view one way or the other. Just seems like the kind of thing to consider at the start of the formal campaign. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 19:30, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Consistency, taking its cue from an established pattern, can be valuable or, as Emerson said, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds".

My initial instinct is to cover the referendums in one article, with suitable redirects pointing to it, because they both deal with related questions: What is a family, and what is a woman's role at home and at work?

For that matter, the three articles Twelfth Amendment, Thirteenth Amendment, and Fourteenth Amendment should also be merged (with suitable redirects) since those three referendums, held on the same day, were about the same topic of abortion.

I will revisit the question after I have time to pore over the articles and the question raised more carefully. Spideog (talk) 20:41, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I'd be happy to have the single article March 2024 Irish constitutional referendums, splitting in the future only if the campaigns diverge in terms of coverage, notability, campaign groups etc. -Bogger (talk) 21:46, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

And I'd also support a single article unless strong reasons for more emerge. And further, I'd support merging those on the 12-14th Amendments; I never did see the logic of separate articles for those, three wholly interlinked questions. SeoR (talk) 00:14, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Also agreed, a single article makes sense. Bastun 00:33, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Great to see a consensus, and though I had started moving in the other direction with my edits, it makes a lot of sense. Even if there is any divergence in the result or if there are some organisations calling for a split vote, it will be useful to show this together on one page. Similarly, the same with the 1992 votes, that there was a No/Yes/Yes from many groups, as well as No/No/No from others, is a useful comparison, in a way that a divergence between marriage equality and the presidential age is only trivial. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 06:45, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

I would agree with the single article approach for the campaign. To date all the parties and civil society groups that have declared a position on the referendums are supporting both and there could be a lot of repetition if we have two separate articles. Having said that, when it gets to documenting the results, two separate articles might be more appropriate. Ccferrie (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

when it gets to documenting the results, two separate articles might be more appropriate

There is no need for separate articles for reporting results given the well-established pattern of numerous past constitutional amendment articles reporting multiple results in one article, viz: in 1968, 1972, 1979, 1992,

1998, 2001 (four results in one article), 2011, 2013, and 2015. Spideog (talk) 14:14, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

1968 and 1992 mergers

Following this discussion, I've proposed that we merge the two previous occasions we've had multiple ballots on closely related topics.

• Talk:1968 Irish constitutional referendums
• Talk:November 1992 Irish constitutional referendums

Working on combined articles for these (if agreed) should inform how we handle the results section of a combined article for the upcoming votes. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 11:06, 5 February 2024 (UTC) Spideog, Bogger, Scolaire, SeoR, Bastun, Ccferrie or Spleodrach, any thoughts on the two proposals above (corrected after I’d accidentally mixed them up!) Iveagh Gardens (talk) 15:03, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I've thought about it further, and for these two cases, firmly support mergers. SeoR (talk) 00:19, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, the discussion has continued on Talk:November 1992 Irish constitutional referendums, and I think it is converging towards no consensus. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 13:45, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Support merges: The dispersal of merger discussions across multiple article talk pages and here in WikiProject Ireland is exasperating. I suggest we centralise the discussions in one location (I prefer this location) and place notices in any relevant talk pages directing interested parties here.

It only struck me yesterday that Misplaced Pages treatment of Irish constitutional amendments is illogically split over two or more articles, for example, we have (Article 1) 1992 Irish constitutional referendums and then we have three more articles: (Article 2) Twelfth Amendment of the Constitution Bill 1992, (Article 3) Thirteenth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland, and (Article 4) Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland. This scattered treatment is offensive. The four articles should be merged into one, with redirects pointing to that one article.

If I was dictator for a day like Donald Trump's fantasy for next January, I would go on a wholesale merging binge to impose order and consistency on the mess collected in Category:Constitutional referendums in the Republic of Ireland. I don't know why it became a pattern to have, for example, 2015 Irish constitutional referendums plus Thirty-fourth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland and Thirty-fifth Amendment of the Constitution Bill 2015. The three articles should be one because atomising the discussion is both disorderly and illogical which either sends the reader to three different places for one event or risks the reader missing part of the treatment of the occasion. There is also the problem of repetition between articles.

I have read a few of these articles in the past without realising until yesterday that by reading Thirty-fourth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland I could easily not recognise that there are two related articles: Thirty-fifth Amendment of the Constitution Bill 2015 and 2015 Irish constitutional referendums.

Even if two amendments voted on, on the same day, are not related in content they are nevertheless contemporaneous events and there is obvious logic in combining them to tidy this unnecessary mess which risks making related material invisible to an unwary reader.

Merge, baby, merge. Merge the discussions we're having, then merge the articles. Spideog (talk) 16:26, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

By "merge the discussions we're having" I mean place notices on all relevant constitutional amendment and referendum Talk pages saying that centralised discussion is taking place (here) at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Ireland. Spideog (talk) 16:35, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I can understand your exasperation at the duplication! Even in the meantime, I had crafted a separate response over on Talk:November 1992 Irish constitutional referendums within the next half hour! My apologies for this dispersal.

The way I see it, it makes sense to have a separate article for 2015 Irish constitutional referendums, with an overview of the Thirty-fourth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland and the Thirty-fifth Amendment of the Constitution Bill 2015 as marriage equality and the age of eligibility for election to the office of president were entirely separate subjects; someone who wants to know the background to the relatively obscure proposal to amend the age of eligibility would get lost in the material on marriage equality. Or a reader studying the abolition of the death penalty by country could get lost in the 2001 Irish constitutional referendums in the debate on the Nice Treaty if they were all combined. It's different for the 1968, November 1992, and March 2024 referendums, as in each case, these were proposals on related questions, proposed together, debated together. I had opened separate merger discussions even there though, someone might have a subtle case of Yes for merger in 1968 for No in 1992. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 17:03, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I recognise your argument about two different topics being voted on in one day but that is easily dealt with in one article such as 2029 Irish constitutional referendums within which are two sections: Amendment to permit strangling of babies at birth and Amendment to prohibit fake tans. The results of each vote would appear in the appropriate sections within the article.

Even if there is only one amendment being voted on, it makes no sense to have two articles: 2029 Irish constitutional referendum and Amendment to permit strangling. The lead paragraph would say two (or more) issues were voted on in the 2029 referendum then the reader could browse whichever section is of interest. This would tame the messy subject atomisation/fragmentation and sprawl and cure the problem of repetition between articles. Spideog (talk) 17:25, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

We have enough examples that we don't need to consider such hypothetical referendums. Where there's one referendum held on the day, e.g. Ninth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland, there's only one article. Although a short article, we don't and shouldn't merge that with 1984 European Parliament election in Ireland held on the same day. The same should go for other polls held on the same day on quite distinct topics. I've considered quite a few mergers and splits on different topics of Irish politics, and the question for me is primarily what would be clearer for the readers. I can't see what benefit there would be to any reader of a single article on the referendums on the Amsterdam Treaty and the Good Friday Agreement. There is a small benefit, partly from disambiguating, of 1998 Irish constitutional referendums, with a very short summary of them. However, I do think that in the three specific cases of 1968, November 1992, and the current ones, it's clearer and more informative to the readers for the distinct referendums on the same broad subject debated in the public sphere together to be treated on a single page. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 06:29, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

List of mountains and hills of County Dublin

I found this when working on WP:FEB24 the February drive to eliminate/reduce the backlog of unreferenced articles. I've added a single source, PeakVisor, not 100% sure of its reliability, which has a list of 41 summits. The Misplaced Pages list is a set of names, some linked, many not linked, with no further information or sources. I contemplated taking it to AfD, but sourced it and moved on, changing the template from {{unreferenced}} to {{refimprove}}.

the Hill Bagging website (aka Database of British and Irish Hills), which I think is a WP:RS, includes Irish mountains like Kippure, but its search function doesn't seem to be working today. Some of the smaller lumps and bumps may not be included in it anyway. (Like the 36m Feltrim Hill, the smallest listed in PeakVisor.)

Someone with access to good sources (a book, perhaps?) on Irish hills and mountains might like to work this up into a more useful list, and to check that the list in {{Mountains and hills of County Dublin}} matches the list in the article.

Over to you. PamD 12:56, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I note that the article's creator, Spideog, is still an active project contributor. And could perhaps review/assist. Otherwise, to my mind and if referencing of the standalone article is an issue, the title could potentially be retargeted to Lists of mountains in Ireland#Leinster. Guliolopez (talk) 13:08, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I've mentioned this at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject British and Irish hills#List of mountains and hills of County Dublin needs attention PamD 13:15, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I have made a good beginning by researching and citing a reliable source to cover the deficiencies. It should be easy to find more; it's just a question of finding time, which I will do. Spideog (talk) 05:14, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Most of the mountains and hills now have citations, with just a handful of stragglers to be completed. Spideog (talk) 16:39, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

@Spideog I've now managed to get a "County Dublin" list from Hill Bagging / DBIH, and it lists 16 - 3 of which weren't in your list. One is an alternative name, and I've added a note at the bottom about the other two.

What criterion did you use for your list of 46? It would be useful to add a note to the list to explain it. Thanks.

Ah, I've just noticed that Naul Hills is listed, so Knockbrack is included ... will tweak the footnote. PamD 23:00, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

@PamD Thank you, PamD. I created the list 13½ years ago so I can't remember my source(s) for the entries or what criteria I may have used. One or two other editors added a few peaks, but most of it is my work.

I do recall that when compiling Coastal landforms of Ireland in 2010 I used a physical map (Map of Ireland No. 923; 1998. Michelin Tyre PLC) and also "circumnavigated" the entire Irish coast using a very detailed government Ordnance Survey map, online, but I have no memory of researching the uplands of Dublin. Spideog (talk) 23:41, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Ah well, it's a much better sourced list now than it was a few days ago, so thank you for upgrading it! This WP:FEB24 project is leading me off into all sorts of tangents, but I'm here to enjoy editing and be useful, rather than to climb up the leaderboard of that project. PamD 23:49, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

FA review: Edward I, Lord of Ireland

I have nominated Edward I of England for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Jim Killock (talk) 21:32, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

If you're going to pretend that Edward I of England is actually titled "Edward I, Lord of Ireland", don't expect to be taken seriously. Scolaire (talk) 10:00, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

@Scolaire: Meow! The old wounds are the tastiest, eh? :D :D :D  ;-) Spideog (talk) 09:34, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Baron of Irrus / Baron of Tirawley / Clan Barrett

I have opened a discussion at Draft talk:Baron of Tirawley. I am not an expert on historical baronies or "feudal lordships", but the claims relating to the "current claimant of the Baron of Tirawley" and "current holder of the title Baron of Irrus" all rely on two very recently-registered websites. Both seemingly created by the same profile(s) contributing related content to Misplaced Pages. And neither seemingly reliable sources. Given that my concerns could well be completely unfounded (and I'll be first to put my hand-up if that's the case), members of WikiProject Ireland (incl those with any expertise/experience in related areas) may be interested in reviewing and contributing to discussion. Guliolopez (talk) 16:22, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Now moved to Talk:Baron of Tirawley. As the creating editor has moved the title to the main article namespace. Guliolopez (talk) 20:23, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

All content regarding "the current claimant of the Baron of Tirawley / Baron of Irrus / Clan Barrett" should be removed as OR, since the cited sources are not reliable sources. I'd also suggest a trip to WP:COIN. --Scolaire (talk) 14:33, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Closing. I've moved to AfD instead. Guliolopez (talk) 15:04, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

The Mary Wallopers and "Anglophobia"

Hi all, I'm just dropping this message on all of the WikiProjects associated with The Mary Wallopers. An IP editor has been repeatedly adding a line to the article describing their musical style as Anglophobia. I have been repeatedly removing these inclusions as I do not believe the source a) is reliable enough or b) discusses the supposed Anglophobia in sufficient detail to warrant its inclusion.

There is an active Talk Page discussion which both myself and the IP editor have commented on today. I would value your input either way on this discussion as I really just want to stop edit warring with this other user. Thanks. Xx78900 (talk) 23:40, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

You’re being a bit oversensitive and maybe ignoring the power dynamics here. There is no suggestion that a folk group can deny anyone their human rights. The context of Irish/English relations renders the Anglophobia of the latter an acceptable response to repression. That Irish people dislike (on the whole - clearly there will be the odd exception) England and the English is hardly unsurprising or news. As I say the band themselves would probably be quite proud of being described as such. 2A00:23C6:7682:F101:60DD:32D8:C9B0:C1E5 (talk) 16:28, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Churches in Ireland - founders and naming

Three debates have begun, two at Talk:Church of Ireland (founder and LQBTQ+ issues) and one at Talk:Catholic Church in Ireland (CC or RCC). Not new, especially #1 and #3, but some life in the discussion, I see. Input / perspective welcome. SeoR (talk) 14:46, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Maybe interesting? - Geomapped Femicide in Ireland 1922 - 2022

Dear WikiProject Ireland editors, I came across this generated map of Femicides occurring in Ireland between 1922 - 2022 (with References) in one of my nightly Reddit doomscrolls. I thought it may be of use or interest to your project or someone within your network. I also suggested to the original poster to consider using Wikidata or even a Wikibase instance to map and enrich their current data. Link to Google Map and Reddit Original post. I hope it is useful to you. Kind regards, Danny Benjafield (WMDE) (talk) 14:34, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi Danny, thank you for sharing, that is really interesting. I wonder do you have any ideas of what we could do with this list. Perhaps an online editing event, or information session?

Kind regards,

Sophie

Project and Communications Manager

Wikimedia Community Ireland Cailínréalta (talk) 11:25, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

That is a compelling dataset alright. Depressing though. In terms of "what (if anything) to do with it":

• "now", it (the map viewer link rather than the reddit post link) would appear to meet WP:ELYES for inclusion on List of major crimes in Ireland. And I'd support its inclusion as an external link there. As is.
• "longer term", and assuming there are no WP:UGC issues, it could be used/linked from a more specific article. I note that, in order, there is convention for articles on Gender inequality by country (some having "violence/crime" sub-sections. EG: Gender inequality in Bolivia#Crime against women). And, where such a section would be too large, there is convention for articles on Violence against women by country (some having "murder/femicide" sections. EG Violence against women in the United States#Types of violence). And, where such a section would be too large, there is convention for articles on Femicide by country. If a related article is created, it may make sense to start "higher" in this order. Working down.
• "enriching map data with wikidata", the articles/data in the related Category:Violence against women in Ireland may be of relevance.

Thanks for sharing. Guliolopez (talk) 12:43, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for those helpful suggestions. If any Wikipedians would like to get involved with working on this I am interested in setting up a project/ editathon so please get in touch! Cailínréalta (talk) 12:59, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Resignation of Leo Varadkar

I have replaced the content of the newly-created Resignation of Leo Varadkar article with a redirect to the existing Leo Varadkar article because the subject does not justify a standalone article since it can be dealt with thoroughly in the existing Leo Varadkar article.

Should the newly-created 2024 Fine Gael leadership election article be similarly redirected to the existing Fine Gael article, for the same reason? (Pinging @Spleodrach: in particular.) Spideog (talk) 17:33, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi. My 2x cents:

1. Resignation. I cannot fathom why his resignation would require a standalone article. I agree with the redirection. WP:NOTNEWS and WP:LASTING apply. (And, unless some LASTING impact or ground-breaking issues arise, I cannot see how this will be anything other than a redirect.)
2. Leadership election. Also do not see why, given that nothing has happened yet (and any "article" here would be a placeholder/scaffolding containing only speculation) I also agree with this redirection. WP:NOTNEWS and WP:TOOSOON apply. (And, once something has actually happened and there is coverage to support more than a skeleton, the redirect can be removed.)

Sometimes I think we forget to take a breath on these things. Bye. Guliolopez (talk) 20:02, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi, my 2¢:

1. The Resignation article should be a redirect, I created the section in the main article expecting it to be expanded, not a separate article created.
2. The 2024 Fine Gael leadership election can be left alone. This is needed. All other FG leadership contests have an article and so will the 2024 contest. It also has to be kept up-to-date. Disagree that nothing has happened yet, as I am writing, Simon Coveney has already ruled himself out of the contest, info which needs to be added to the article, as he was the runner up last time. Also, the other candidates will be declaring there intentions tomorrow. Also, the new FG leader will be in place by 6 April 2024, just over 2 weeks away, so we do have a deadline! I say keep and expand this article. Spleodrach (talk) 20:53, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Fully agree that a resignation does not require an article, now or at all. I would not have articles for leadership races either, but there is precedent, so OK. SeoR (talk) 21:01, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Iarnród Éireann#Requested move 16 March 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Iarnród Éireann#Requested move 16 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. JuniperChill (talk) 11:48, 21 March 2024 (UTC)