| Revision as of 23:51, 4 June 2024 editJoy (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators143,648 edits archived old talk to /Archive 1← Previous edit |
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{{WikiProject Military history|class=start|B1=n|B2=n|B3=y|B4=y|B5=y|Balkan=yes|WWII=yes}} |
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== Disputed == |
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This article inflates number of people who lost their lives in aftermath of WWW. Only relevant sources is Serbian state commission. So far the commission has found only '''''' (this article claim that 56,000 died alone). Many of them weren't "purged", but died in combat and in concentration camps (Germans) due to poor conditions. Many who lost lives were notorious quislings and war criminals. --]] 04:45, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
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:I don't agree that Serbian state commission is the "only relevant" source <s>because it is not neutral</s>.--] (]) 06:07, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
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::Why is it not neutral? What possible bias would a 2011 commission have to investigate 1944 events? I disagree with Bokica that it's the "only relevant source", but surely it ought to be given a very high prominence. ] (]) 07:02, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Serbian state commission has indeed anti-partisan bias, but they didn't find more then 54,000 people killed during combat, executed for treason and died in concentration camps. Read --]] 07:51, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Sorry. when you wrote Serbian state commission I thought you refer to Commission established by Communists during WWII. Anyway, my objection regarding "only relevant source" still stands. |
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:::If communists imprisoned people and took them to concentration camps or force labor camps where they died, then those people are victims of Communist purges. --] (]) 08:10, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::They died due to imprisonment, yes. New authorities gathered Germans in concentration camps in order to expel them to Germany and they died due to poor conditions. But, they were not executed. --]] 08:15, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::* I did not say they were executed. Just because they were not directly executed by the communists does not make them less victims of communists. |
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:::::* The link you provided says there were 55,973 people killed by the communists (not men, like you wrote) who were victims of communist purges. You stated it is 54,000 and complained because this article presents figure of 56,000.--] (]) 08:53, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
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::::www.kontrapress.com/ is a reliable source? ] (]) 07:58, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::Kontrapress host a paper from a history student. By now he graduated, i think. But this is certainly better source than Press and Vecernje novosti. --]] 08:06, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::It doesn't sound reliable to me. Find a university press published academic book (and read ]). Please. And Ad's opinion about what makes someone a victim of communist purges is OR, unless of course he has a reliable source for that. ] (]) |
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::::::: I gave my honest opinion based on common sense which is, I believe, "sky is blue" assertion. If communists/fascists/.... imprisoned some people and they died because of bad conditions, gas, heavy labor... then it is safe to say that imprisoned people are victims of fascist/communists/.... --] (]) 08:51, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::::Must be a lot of blue sky where you are, because article with subjects like this one need reliable sources, not someone's university paper or your opinion. ] (]) 09:01, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Please read the text of this discussion. The commission prepared a list of victims which has 55,973 people in it. It is another editor (BokicaK) who disputed the presented referenced data claiming that it should be reduced because people who were not executed but taken to camps where they died due to bad conditions are not victims and should be exempt from the list of victims. I am opposed to this kind of minimalization of number of communist victims, contrary to the presented sources. --] (]) 09:22, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::(Edit conflict) He cite other works. He analyzed names in database created by commission. He counted names and found 1500 twice or more times counted names and many odd facts. Among them are |
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* 20,576 Germans (with some 500 doubled entries) |
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* 14,567 Serbs (some 500 doubled entries) |
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* 6,112 Hungarians (some 300 doubled entries) |
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* 1,360 Albanians |
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* 953 Croats |
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Among those those names are people who certainly weren't purged (but counted in death toll) are ] , ] , ] , ] (KIA) , ] , ] , ] , ] , ] , ] (KIA) , ] (most probably killed by ustashas( , ] , ] , ] (killed by ustashas), ] , ] (KIA) |
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Regarding Hungarisans, the author of Kontrapress article read Tibor Cseres's book and found that his estimates are groundless. He reported than Cseres claims that were more Hungarian casualties in some towns than they had Hungarian residents. Also, the author concluded that many Hungarian were killed in towns that were affected by ] such as ] and ]. |
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So, the commision has strong anticommunist bias, but they haven't find 56,000 Germans, 40,000 Hungarians and 24,000 Serbs. --]] 09:38, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
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:You directly contradict to yourself here. |
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* You first stated that ''"Only relevant sources is Serbian state commission"''. |
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* Then you stated "So far the commission has found only ''''''" (using word "only 54,000" when it comes to 55.973 killed people is ...........). |
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* Then you disputed reliability of the figure presented by the same source which you yourself proclaimed as "only relevant".--] (]) 13:22, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
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You should read carefully 55.973-1.372≈54.000 --]] 13:53, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
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:You should read carefully ]. ] (]) 13:55, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
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::Why this article/paper with references and sources is not a reliable source, and yellow press like Novosti and Press are RS? --]] 14:02, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
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:::That argument is classic ]. You need to explain why your source meets the ] criteria if you want to use it. I'm not defending the tabloids, I'm telling you the policy for your source. Just read the policy please. ] (]) 14:09, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
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::::It is a scientific work by a man who is a educated historian whose field of interests in WW2. His papers were included in few peer-reviewed journals. This article is a pile of rubbish. --]] 15:07, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
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== Facts and claims in article == |
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This is probbably the worst article I've seen on English wikipedia. Not a single fact, not a single reliable source, and lots of inflammatory propaganda introduced via references to articles in notorious tadbloid newspapers. |
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From my point of view, apart from formal disadvantages, this article has more serious issues. Namely, it offers lots of malicious fabrications, with no counterweight in factuality whatsoever. |
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For example, this vivid character, professor Dragoljub Živković, states that "about half of the Serb victims were killed by occupational forces and the other half of them were executed by post-war communist authorities". And the source? Some mail archive!? |
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Cure? I can't see why this article is not deleted in the first place. But, an article on the subject is necessary. The work of the 2009 State Commission can shed some light on the subject. Although criticized, the commission did some serious and significant work. It had access to all available sources, including OZNA registries, birth registries, bot state and church, and compiled a comprehensive list. The list includes all dead, regardless of whether they were killed in fighting, sentenced to death, or just missing. It was criticised for a number of duplicate entries (there is even a number of people entered for times), und other issues, but it finaly provided us with numbers with a margine of error probably less than 10%. This list is more or less stable on the two last years, and it can shed some light. For example, number Serbs from Vojvodina on the list is 917, and not some 23-24.000, (or 47.000) as implied by professor Dragoljub Živković. And all work of professor Dragoljub Živković in Commission for Vojvodina is completelly included in the list. |
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In short, I don’t think wikipedia should allow itself to present claims of victims more then 20 or 40 times larger than the stated facts. It is even worse than famous Jasenovac issue. |
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In short, the list for the whole territory of Serbia contains 27.367 Germans, 14.567 Serbs, 6.112 Hungarians, 1.360 Albanians and 953 Croats. It is incomplete – some records should be deleted, some more added, but I think we could say with confidence that true number of all dead not included in earlier census is somewhere in the range of +-20% of these numbers.--] (]) 13:33, 22 June 2014 (UTC) |
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:G'day Gorran, I agree it needs a clean-up, big-time. I suggest you be ] and hack out the dubious stuff, use reliable sources only. If someone objects, they'll surely revert you, then discussion can ensue. Regards, ] (]) 09:41, 23 June 2014 (UTC) |
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== External links modified == |
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Hello fellow Wikipedians, |
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I have just modified 3 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes: |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140513221333/http://www.drustvosns.org/nemacka%20manjina/stefanovics/Friedrich%20Binder%2C%20Promemoria.pdf to http://www.drustvosns.org/nemacka%20manjina/stefanovics/Friedrich%20Binder%2C%20Promemoria.pdf |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141009023107/http://www.huncor.com/delvidek4445/delvidekindex2.htm to http://www.huncor.com/delvidek4445/delvidekindex2.htm |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141009023107/http://www.huncor.com/delvidek4445/delvidekindex2.htm to http://www.huncor.com/delvidek4445/delvidekindex2.htm |
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. |
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{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}} |
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Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 13:21, 11 August 2017 (UTC) |
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== Revert war with Jozefsu == |
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{{ping|Jozefsu}} how do you now that majority are innocent? I don't claim that majority are not. I claim that there were many a) soldiers who died in battles, b) true collaborationist, fascists and war criminals. Chetniks and formations of Ljotić and Nedić fought against partisans until the end of war during retreat of ], such as ], ], ], ], ]... Or people who were tried and sentenced to death such as ], ], ], ], ], ] or politicians like ]. Or ] who killed himself before his trial. Some 2000-3000 chetniks from Serbia were killed in battles of ] and ]. Many died from tifus in Bosnia because they didn't want to surender. |
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Among people executed by partisans were members of ] or ]'s ] or resposible for or participants of of ] (and persecutions of Serbs during April 1941) such as ] and ] |
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Among Croats among these 55-60,000 are members of Ustasa movement --]] 03:27, 28 April 2019 (UTC) |
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{{ping|BokicaK}} The names you list here have nothing to do with this article. We both know it. We know each other. You're a notorous liar and mischief-maker. I will not let you play your game here as you are playing on Wikipeidia in Serbian language, where you prevented all my edits, and everybody elses edits. Pretty obvious why this subject is so important to you. Not for the sake of honesty, not for good! I ask the Community: How can a religiously devoted communist be ] in this page? Just HOW?–] (]) 03:59, 28 April 2019 (UTC) |
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It DOES have. They are among those 55-60,000 died. I'll repeat again: Among those those names are people who certainly weren't purged (but counted in death toll) are ] , ] , ] , ] (KIA) , ] , ] , ] , ] , ] , ] (KIA) , ] (most probably killed by ustashas( , ] , ] , ] (killed by ustashas), ] , ] (KIA) |
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Member of ] |
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{{ping|Peacemaker67}}, what is policy here on calling someone 'liar' --]] 04:08, 28 April 2019 (UTC) |
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:I just saw this. {{u|Jozefsu}} be aware that calling someone a notorious liar is a ], which can get you blocked. Moderate your comments. ] (]) 04:11, 28 April 2019 (UTC) |
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What we gonna do with his reverts? Did I prove that many who died aren't just innocent civilians? Of course, there could be or were people who were indeed innocent (that means who weren't war criminals, fascist or members of fascist or collaborationist forces or organizations, petty thiefs...) --]] 04:35, 28 April 2019 (UTC) |
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: '''''If you happened to be in a band of killers, and you did not participate but remain silent about it – you are considered party to the crime.''''' Well, it started wrong, but straighforward ''injustice'' causes straighforward naming it. I accept the warning but will not apologize. Not to a man who made my life on the Serbian Misplaced Pages nightmare. He repelled me from editing this subject alltogether. And now he transferred "his" material here. Let me warn that the man who just finished extensive editing of this article is a devout communist ideologist–purist, who is fanatically convinced that the idea of organised purge that has been commited after the WW2 in Yugoslavia is a modern-day forgery made up by the revisonist, right-wing movement. He simply cannot accept that the communists commited crimes against humanity, which is hard to believe either, because we were thought in school all our lives that the communists never did anything wrong in the name of their ideology. But some horrible facts started coming out, right from the hidden communist archives. Serbia has serious problems clearing this history of events, those events the surrounding nations already dealth with long ago. If Serbia was not questioned on this in the porocess of joinig EU, the procedure would probably never happen. Nobody is interested in this. It is forgotten, as a dark age. Maybe it is easy to forget to those whose family member was not murdered. Like Bojan, who never shows empathy. To him those – even the children – are anticommunists, whose fate was sealed, so why wonder they suffered horrific death? He never talks about children, as if they not existed. Instead, using arguments that regular war criminals were placed in mass graves together with innocent to "smuggle them" is his logic. Is this true at all? Bojan fails to answer as just who did that – their communist hangmen? He does all to relativize the matter. What morals is demonstrated when someone protects an ideology, even in spite of obvious crimes? |
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:E. g. if Bojan's claim was true, that the killing of innocents was accidental only – why those same authorities hid the killings, instead of punishing individual partisans who did it abusing their freshly gained power? And why were the murderers always cleared of guilt? Why the double-standards here? It's like "We kill innocents, because their ones killed our innocents. They are murderers, but we're not because we did it rightfully. They did it first" and so on... Is this "view" that Bokica represents? Let me remind all here, that Budapest has a ] – black and red. Everyone should see that museum. It's not a story about bad guys and good guys, it's a dirty story about killers on both sides. Are we to protect ''any'' deliberate murderers? |
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:In Serbia it was impossible to rise the whole theme out of silence for some decades after the death of supreme leader Tito, the regime of Milošević, during the wartime of the 90's and even after the October 5th 2000 revolution. What this fact proves by itself? |
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: The war was over, the war criminals fled, so killing and torture of unarmed civilians was an unnecessary vendetta perpetrated by the winners. Because this is exactly what happened, the game with the names Bojan is presenting doesn't nullify that. And do I have to prove name by name that those mentioned have nothing to do with the subject of purge? Look after their biographies. Nedić commited suicide in his cell. Deák and Szombathelyi were armed officers who were condemned in a trial. Mihailović also had a regular trial. Both him and Kalabić are now officially proclaimed innocent. I could care less about that. But I do care about 20.000 children that went "missing" in 1944/45 purges, and that's just the tip of th iceberg. It was an ideological purge against anybody unfit to the system. And after it was over, the justification began and is going on to this day. Following this justification agenda, Bojan will soon demonstrate that his intention is to dim the facts, beutify the picture of partisan movement, with ultimate goal to ''destroy'' the article, by turning it to useless text, which by the end of his editing says nothing. The article will become even worse than it was, when it was already criticised by many editors as a mess. I wish I am wrong. At least, this is what happened to the article in the Serbian Misplaced Pages. |
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: Right now I am very ill, but as soon as I get better I will try some editing. Let's see if anybody can edit an article which user Bojan declares as "official" truth. But by the way I did 2 reverts, and Bojan starts this discussion when he did his 3rd. I will use my right to revert once more. Because that sentence is outrageous, formulated in a subtle way to dim the main subject of the article. I will not revert anymore, I will edit with examinable references. Let's see if this man will let me place just anything in from the point he entered his well formulated chunks of text.–] (]) 12:05, 28 April 2019 (UTC) |
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:I expanded part on Hungarians (I wrote on camps, retaliation and expulsion in Šajkaška), and yet you dare to say that I'm downplaying events? No, you are here to twist facts by implying that '''all''' 55-60,000 men listed by Serbian state commission a) were innocent b) were executed. --]] 00:12, 29 April 2019 (UTC) |
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:Partisan DID NOT use gas chambers or locked men and burned house like Nazis. Partisans DID NOT throw men under ice, like Hungarians soldiers in Novi Sad/Šajkaška raid in 1942. Partisan DID NOT cut throats as chetniks and ustasahs used to do. --]] 01:10, 29 April 2019 (UTC) |
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{{ping|Jozefsu}} Did Mihailović, Vujković, Jonić, Jovanović, Lukačević, Gašparović, Keserović, Vranješević, ] were brought to tribunals? Yes or no? Would You like to translate this article from Kontrapres: ''U merama koje je sprovodila pobednička strana u Bačkoj bilo je elemenata revanšizma i retorzije i „ostvarivanja politike ’oko za oko zub za zub’“. Nema sumnje da je jedan broj ubistava, čak ako uzmemo u obzir želju za osvetom, bio nacionalno motivisan, kao i da je u osvetničkom naletu ubijen veći broj lica koja nisu imala ozbiljnu krivicu ili nisu imali realnu krivicu. Međutim, pojedini preživeli savremenici Racije 1942, naročito oni koji su izgubili članove porodice, smatrali su da odgovornosti podleže svaka vrsta podrške i okupacionom poretku. Kako ističe istoričar Aleksandar Kasaš, na području Čuruga, Žablja i Mošorina „prilikom ovih kažnjavanja bila je primetna želja nove vlasti da se ovim merama da izvesno zadovoljenje srpskim porodicama i izvrši osveta, '''ali se nastojalo da se ipak zadovolji normalna sudska forma'''.“ (source Milan Radanović/Aleksandar Kasaš) --]] 01:54, 29 April 2019 (UTC)'' |
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:{{ping|BokicaK}}Kontrapres article is used in this article multiple times, as it is your main hobby-horse. I respect that, but it is 4, almost 5 years old. I think it has some good points, but it is not the Bible. Many more proofs came out in meanwhile, and even more will come out by time. The large amount of killings – we are talking about tens of thousands – were without any trial. You give names of 9-10 criminals that were "smuggled in" – I talk about 1000 innocents for any one name you write. Besides that, I don't understand your point: the data we see in the database is only raw data. It is not processed yet. Only the researchers were allowed to see – in the secret archives – who died under what circumstances. You and I must rely on the study of that material. We are not in a position to compare data. So what you are doing here is original research. On the contrary so far it is more than clear that it was a mass-reprisal. The question is, how long you will deny it? How CAN you still deny it? |
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:Please, I am amazingly calm now. I know you cannot win. I started here acting and looking like a bad guy, but I say openly: there is no reason for edit war. I am open for cooperation. But just if your intention is to make the article better, unbiased, and undegraded. I know all these arguments you use. I heard them many many times. It is a manipulation. Repeated over and over again just to relativise the truth. I am not interested in this, I am fed up with your circular reasoning. I again tell you what I told you on Serbian Misplaced Pages: '''''I just want to edit the article.''''' Please, let me do that in peace. And if you don't let me – consider I will not back down and play dead. I don't write my own opinion, only referenced statements. My time and work will not go vain! You have no right to and there is no reason to delete properly referenced statements. |
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:I see exactly what is your problem, which part bothers you the most, it's about the ] – that you deleted already. But what's the opinion of others? Where is the consensus? Just go on, delete all you can. I saved my work. And by your well-known custom you will continue to disintegrate ALL that I put in. But you are not untouchable. For now I leave, and let you do whatever you wish. Have fun if you take it as fun, but I will come back later, I have the page on the watch list. I repeat: you have no right to delete properly referenced material. I don't write my personal opinion, but referenced sentences taken from verifiable sources. And how I know most victims were innocent? Because the references says so and the research more and more shows it.–] (]) 02:49, 29 April 2019 (UTC) |
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:{{ping|Jozefsu}} You wrote much, but you evaded to answer: Did new regime bring, for example, Mihailović on trial and did provide many, many evidences that he was both traitor and war criminal? Article by Miroslav Radanović is not old, because almost nothing big has changed since 2014. |
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:Can You understand that ALL those who are listed among those 55-60,000 dead are not murdered? In fact, I would say that about half of them who died due to harsh conditions, illness, and age, but they weren't murdered. Partisan military administration advised release of those who could not be considered as war criminals a month or two after they were brought in camps (I speak on Hungarians only) How do You that there are certainly 1000 innocent per war criminal (nobody wants to admit that someone was murderer, plunderer, it looks bad)? ''I gave example of Tibor Kisz''. His granddaughter (a right wing politician in Viktor Orban government) says he was innocent, yet somebody found proof that her grandfather was a Turaninan hunter (racist/colaborationist organisation) and claims that he was killed by another fellow Turaanian hunter a week before partisans liberated Vrbas? Did You live 80 years ago and were eyewitness, maybe? It is outrageous to say that there were only 55-60 war criminals? Who killed Serbian colonists in Sirig on April 13, 1941? Who killed some 3000 men in 1941 and expelled Serbian colonists (source Kasas 1996)? Who trowed men under ice in 1942 raid? According to You 50-60 men - minus Mihailović, Jovanović, Kalabić? No, it was Royal Hungarian Army '''aided by local Hungarians'''!!! I don't deny that there were indeed innocent men or men who, by, today standards, did't standards, by you say, without any evidence that you know can list 1000 innocent for one know war criminal. And what is your opinion on ] that has branches in Hungarian towns along river Tisa? Do you want to say that there were only 50 members/followers of that party in Bačka? No, there were hundreds, even maybe thousands. Are they innocent, too? |
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:My opinion: yes, there were bad treatment of Volksdeutche, Hungarians and anti-communist Serbs (shooting or beating POWs, rape, looting), but it wasn't official policy, aside from expulsion of Germans (and all Eastern European countries did that). --]] 03:41, 29 April 2019 (UTC) |
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{{ping|BokicaK}}I wanted not to continue, but you're such a blatant manipulator, eh. Yes shurely I write much, but I do it in hope you read it and think about it. I always assume you do. Otherwise its not a discussion. |
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But let it be, whatever is going on here in the talk still doesn't gratify you right to delete well referenced sentences in the article! You can't just leave a note here about Turan hunters (we all know they existed) and go and delete some random sentence there. |
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You cannot just come here and tell us the nazis were bad guys, and go back to the article to deliberatley dispute that communists killed innocents. |
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Shurely nice pick about Draža who "I evade". And what about the government of Serbia (High Court) rehabiliting him as innocent? And stating that his war crimes were a communist forgery, and his trial a politically staged trial? Please I am not sharing my opinion here. ]. I am just curious if you think you are smarter than your country? Of course we all know that there was a trial of his, so what is your point anyway? It is not clear to me how is all that connected to the subject of ''this'' article? |
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Everyne can see clearly that all your arguments on the subject criminals/innocents are a pure psychological manipulation. You even use that morbid argument "They killed innocents ''first'', they were as much cruel, so why is the problem if we killed innocents by 'more humane' ways". Everyone here can see that you are defending an ''ideology'', whereas I defend the victims of ''that'' ideology. |
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By the way, you never say anything about the government of Serbia recognizing the fact that bloody purge of innocents did happen, and that monuments and memorials should be erected above the mass graves. Nobody - besides you - say that those mass graves, especially in Vojvodina are graves of war criminals! Show me one mass grave of the purges after september 1944 in Vojvodina - with references - that is a mass grave of war criminals. Please! |
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To the recent days - the article presents it - these monuments, the crosses, the stones etc. were regularly destroyed, burned, removed. Who else than by the relatives and ideological supporters of the mass-killers (who else would destroy graveyards than those indoctrinated and blinded by an ideology). Please, prove that you're not a liar, and declare openly if you support the removal of monuments from the mass graves of communist purges. Because you claim that there are war-criminals in those graves. The memorial table above most graves have a list of names. Please start your own investigation and form a commission for removal of all names and exhumation of all "suspects" from those graves that you consider "inappropriate". And in meantime explain, why those people were all shot in head without charges and trial. You cannot go away with your notion without explaining why the government ''hid'' the supposed reasons of the mass killings and ''forbid'' the public to talk about it for more than 60 years. Why the fear if they were war criminals anyway? The killers should have been proud of the killings but instead they sealed with seven seals, destroyed and camouflaged the scene of the crime. Where is the logic here? I don't know much about criminal investigation, but this has all the elements of a criminal act. The communist government should have been proud of purging out war criminals, instead cover up happaned on all levels, and the circumstances of killings were classified as state secret. Come on man, you don't have to be Colombo to see that all this point to mass crime here, and the government ''was'' responsible! Because it with all its power defended the perpetrators, and no partisan was ever charged for deliberate act. Be careful, who do you defend here! |
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And please do not delete referenced material from the article, because you are deliberately degrading what the article is trying to say.–] (]) 12:57, 29 April 2019 (UTC) |
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] |
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:It is good to know that you think followers of Nazissm aren't bad guys. Regarding Mihilović's, it was legal process with only plaintiff, and without other side who will fought against rehabilitation. Details of process Tomislav Dulić: {{doi|10.2298/SOC1204625D}} Article is from 2012, he was rehabilitated thanks to influence of ], aid of ''Chetnik duke'' ], then president of Serbia. |
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:I didn't get answer on my question: who killed 3,000 civilians in 1941? Who trowed men under the ice in 1942? 50-60 men (those who are true war criminals)? No, there were many more. And sorry, whoever was member of Arrow Cross Party (there were hundreds or even more thousands among Hungarians in Bačka, Turanian Hunters (there were hundreds or even more thousands among Hungarians in Bačka), ]'s Party of Hungarian Renewal, ''nemzeters''. And many members of Arrow Cross Party, Turanian Hunters are among killed. Aleksandar Kasaš in his book (pages 176-177) gives examples for Bogojevo and Sombor. For Bogojevo he gives names of 17 Hungarians killed by OZNA on November 6: 5 njilašs (members/followers of Arrow Cross Party), 2 Turanian hunters, 4 followers of Béla Imrédy. For Sombor he gives a list of 73 Hungarians. I counted 23 members of ACP, 16 Turans, 3 imredists and rest are listed as murderers, informers, spies, voluntaries in occupying army, etc --]] 16:28, 29 April 2019 (UTC) |
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Dear Bojan, first – ''where and when'' I said nazis aren't bad guys?! This is not the first time (but I hope the last) that you accuse me of that. Not nice! |
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Second – If I answer your question about the Novi Sad raid, will you let me alone? And not delete my referenced sentences? I don't want edit war, I just want to edit. In the true spirit of Misplaced Pages. Here like in the rest of the articles. You know, to look up references, read them, formulate them and place them in, peace by peace building a nice text here. I am not here to ''modify'' this article to be in line with my wish or ideology. Just to add original content, as I do everywhere elese in Misplaced Pages for 4 years now. So let's play your immature game then: Yes, 3000 innocent civilians were killed in Novi Sad 1941 by hungarian soldiers, my nationals, and I am ashamed of those hungarians. Happy now? But in 1944/45 my nationals – many of them innocent civilians too – were killed by partisans, your nationals. Will you accept that ''fact''? Are you ashamed of them too? Or you are happy for the reprisal? Be honest with us! At least try to be, and not go around of the question, by starting another talk, about Turans, this and that.... please! |
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Thrid – again, you list Turan hunters here and mention the Novi Sad raid, and for you it's all settled? Anybody innocent that was killed by partisans from then on are ''justified''? You list nazi conc. camps, place pictures of chetniks. You think everyone here is a fool, right? If we are interested in that we will look up those – this is a talk page of ], of victims of a communist terror. Are you trying to distract attention from the ''subject'' here? The things you list here are for ''another'' article. (This is the ''exact'' reprise of your "argumentation" from Serbian Misplaced Pages and I don't want to do it here again. ''Nije ti dosadno?'') There are thousands of pages about Yugoslav partisan's bravery and battles on Misplaced Pages, but only this one talks about their misconduct. Why not edit this one with the same pure heart and devout attention, for the sake of truth and for the sake of Misplaced Pages? Remember that no ] is welcomed. (], ], ]). |
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I ''know'' about freedom fight of partisans, I ''know'' about the nazis, I ''know'' about the Holocaust. But ''please'', here, this is <u>different subject</u>, different article. And you are, in my opinion, manipulating. No need for it.–] (]) 23:27, 29 April 2019 (UTC) |
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No, I remove claim that 55-600 were killed without trial, because simply it is not true. According to Radanović's estimates, 55-60% died in camps from nonviolent deaths (mostly Volksdeutshe), then many Chetniks were killed in battles (although amnesty was offered. Twice, by the end of war). Then some did have very public trial (Mihailović, etc). And finally, among those are people not killed by partisans (explaind bellow) --]] 02:59, 1 May 2019 (UTC) |
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== Tibor Cseres and Srđan Cvetković == |
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are band sources. For example Hungarian historian ] says: U današnjoj mađarskoj javnosti putem rada Tibora Čereša (Vérbosszú a Bácskában) fiksirala se brojka od 40 hiljada, uprkos tome što sam posle objavljivanja knjige, u svojoj studiji koju je objavio list Saveza pisaca (Magyar Napló), već ukazala na netačnost i nesigurnost objavljenih podataka. Pošto je Čerešova knjiga prevedena na više jezika, među kojima na engleski i hrvatski, tako se i na međunarodnom planu fiksirala ova brojka. Uprkos tome što i vojvođanska literatura na mađarskom jeziku drži ovu brojku preteranom, jer kako ukazuje Marton Matuška u jednoj sumirajućoj studiji u vezi odmazdi, „prema podacima koje knjiga objavljuje u Čurugu je palo 3000, a Zabiju 2000 žrtava. Ni jedno selo nije imalo toliko mađarskih stanovnika." Ne govoreći o tome, dodaje, da knjiga isključivo „razmatra događaje u Bačkoj", odmazde u Banatu, Baranji ne spominje. (in Aleksandar Kasaš's book). Translation: ''In modern Hungarian public, thanks to work by ] (Vérbosszú a Bácskában), number of 40,000 is fixed, despite fact after publication of book, in my study published by paper of Authors union (Magyar Napló), I already pointed inaccuracy and uncertainity of published data. Thanks to fact that Czeres's book is translated on several language, including English and Croatian, in international public this number is also fixed. Despite fact that even literature from Vojvodina on Hungarian language consider this number exaggerated, since, as Marton Matuszka points in a study regarding retalitations, "acording to data that the book reveals in Čurug there were 3000 slain, and in Žabalj 2000 victims. '''Not one village had so many Hungarian inhabitants'''".'' While not talking about that, he says that the book exclusively "consider events in Bačka", retaliations in Banat Baranja doesn't mention. |
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Srđan Cvetković, although he genuinely has Phd in field of history, and he is spiritus movens behind Serbian State Commission, is bad/unreliable researcher. Milan Radanović points that his master/PHd thesis, Between hummer and sickle has manny inacuraices. E.g. Cvetković is cited here in article/feuilleton from Večenje Novisti "Broz na belom konju". In very first sentence he says: Trijumfalni ulazak J. B. Tita na belom konju 20. oktobra 1944. preko Pančevačkog mosta uneo je zebnju u srca mnogih Beograđana. (triumphal entry of J. B. Tito on white horse on 20th October 1944 via Pančevo bridge brought aching in heart of many residents of Belgrade). Fact #1. Tito arived in Belgrade on 26th October, on 20th October he was in Vršac, awaiting arrival of ], Fact #2 ] was destroyed several days earlier by retreating Wehrmacht (or by Allied planes), so Fact #3 Broz only could get in Belgrade via Soviet patrol boat. |
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{{ping|Peacemaker67}}, what do you say? --]] 04:30, 29 April 2019 (UTC) |
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:{{ping|BokicaK}} And well, here are the good old arguments from the Serbian Misplaced Pages. You are in second gear in your quest to refuse the purges – by cheap tries to discriminate the sources and the researchers. |
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: I cannot tell you are a liar because I get punished but I will tell shurely you are a ''manipulator''. Let's see: (1) Tibor Cseres was among the first to write about the purges. As a starter, he of course has mistakes. In any research on any dim subject the pioneers make the most excess. Consider 50 years of silence on the subject, and then you start to go around to look for witnesses. He just wrote down what witnesses said. What Sajti Eneko says here (and you failed to understand) is not that Cseres was ''bad'' alltogether, but because he was the first and was not fully unbiased, the whole research suffered from misconception of exaggerated numbers. But nothing was nullyfied, Sajti Enike herself wrote excessively on the subject and proved that purges of innocent hungarians very much happened. If there was no Cseres, maybe there would be no Sajti either. Maybe we would not even write an article here, and you would not have what to argue about (that is why you dislike Cseres, not his mistakes, but because he boldly attacked your purist communist ideology). So Cseres is still a source that should be mentioned in connection to ''this subject'', right or wrong, with proper explanation. By the way is he mentioned in the article or you deleted it already? You are known to delete whataver ''you dislike''. So what do you want then? Come on, he openly published a book, not blogged on some website, and he was not writing about comics, he was writing about mass killings of his nationals. Will you forgive him? (2) Srđan Cvetković did not do any notable research, he was involved and in charge of collecting raw data from the field. Someone has to do that too, right? And everyone says he did a good job, no matter what he said earlier about Tito (if he said it). So what we have here – collecting data as the first step in any investigation. He was doing a groundwork only, but since he has seen ''all'' the data, he made some public statements about it. But as far as I know he has not done research personally – please show any published paper which ''analises'' the data, and is signed by Cvetković. Or: show us anybody who researched and published about the purges and state that the data from the database is wrong because of Cvetković. This is pure nonsense, pure manipulation. |
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: And by the way tell us if you pelase, ''who'' are the reserchers of the communist purges ''you'' the great Bojan approve? Are there ''any''?–] (]) 12:23, 29 April 2019 (UTC) |
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::So, I am manipulator and he who says that more people were killed than lived in those towns is a serious source? Cvetković reguralry counts Jews and Serbs killed in Auschwitz, Mauthsausen, Jasenovac and Bergen-Belѕen as victim of partisans (examples |
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::*]: Kata Gerštl (Novi Sad, ); Jovanka Jojkić (Žabalj, ); Andrija Najman (Sombor, RKTG-85242); Josip Najman (Sombor, RKTG-85243); Sara Najman (Sombor, RKTG-85244); Nemeš (Sombor, RKTG-85245); Ilona Volhajmer (Sombor, RKTG-100942); Leopold Balint (Ada, RKTG-44361); Roži Balint (Ada, RKTG-44362); Tibor Balint (Ada, RKTG-44363); Salamon Bakran (Sombor, RKTG-44419); Jovan Barna (Kula, RKTG-44420); Jovanka Narna (Kula, RKTG-44421); Petar Gavrilović (Zemun, RKTG-66972); |
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::*]: Zoran Purigrački (Nova Crnja, RKTG-54739); Vujica Dašić (Čačak, RKTG-6380); |
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::*]: Jakob Zorić (Subotica, RKTG-57086); |
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::*]: Šarlota Galc (Novi Sad, RKTG-62998). |
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::His commission counted men who survived war as men executed by partisans (examples ], ], ], and ]. OK, in the meantime Purić, Stranjaković were removed from the list. So, Cvetković and his commission inflated number of victims, counted people who died in German camps yet he was unable to prove his estimation of 80-100,000 men killed by partisans. |
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::{{ping|Peacemaker67}} is calling someone manipulator (and trolling) allowed on Misplaced Pages? --]] 16:59, 29 April 2019 (UTC) |
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Should I defend myself? The person who is manipulating is called a manipulator. It's not an insult, it's an assessment based on observation. Bojane, why I cannot find the second list of yours in the database? , , , . Are you really telling us truth here? What secondary source you are using for these? |
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''"His commission"'' – again you are slightly slanting here. It is not ''his'' but of the , and of the . There is just too many academics involved here for you to accuse them for unreliability. I don't even understand how dare you, with your limited knowledge, do it. '''''Are you really accusing the National Academias of not one but two countries for forgery?!''''' Or you have access to the secret classified files from the UDB, OZNA, SDB and VOS-liquidator unit?–] (]) 00:00, 30 April 2019 (UTC) |
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And I'm sorry, but I need to stress this too: Bojan knows I am of hungarian etnicity, so he emhasizes the ] and the 'Turans' – to intimidate me. That ''is'' an obvious manipulation. He's trying to chase me away, that's all he does. |
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Just some forgotten facts here: all the perpetrators of the Novi Sad crime were prosecuted. But no partisan was prosecuted for 1944/45. Some of them were even awarded a medal, others were at high position, lived respected lives. Some guards who robbed prisoners in retention camps where demobilized, that's all reported. Bojan knows this. But the world also needs to know this side of things, for the sake of righteousness. |
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Bojane, how come you forget that many more serbs killed serbs, based on ideology, during and after WW2? Just this one man, Ratko Dražević UDBA leader claims he killed with his own hand 2000 prisoners in Čačak. Killer is killer, murder is murder. I don't care what sign he wears, what language he speaks... The executioners names should be known, the line of command behind the purges need to come to light, and the victims deserve to be named and buried with humane dignity. Eh, these strange, alien words to you? ...even communists purged other communists after the war, in battle for power. Hebrang, Slobodan Penezić Krcun, Ranković, names sound familiar to you?–] (]) 00:35, 30 April 2019 (UTC) |
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Read what I wrote: {{red|OK, in the meantime Purić, Stranjaković were removed from the list.}}. Yes, I said that that people were in the list in 2014. Thanks to (in)competence of Srđan Cvetković's commision. People who died in Auswitz, Mauthsausen, Jasenovac ARE still in the list and people count them as victims of partisans, not Germans. And was killed in Zagreb by Ustashas in event described in ], yet he is still he is counted as |
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Fact that are You of hugarian ethnicity doesn't meant anything to me. I'm against revisionist of all eccentricities who speak bullshit. As I demontrated by pointing that many Serbian collaborators and war criminals are in the list. Many of ~15,000 Serbs weren't executed, the died in battled against Partisans or were killed by American/British bombers, because they were retreating together with Army Gropu E. Yes, some perpetuateros of Novi Sad raid were tried as Hungary wanted to show that it was trully democratic society in the when Miklos Kalay soughted to make deal with United Kingdom and pull Hungary out of war. Let see what Kasaš says (pages 143-144) : Od 14. do 23.decembra 1943.godine održano je i suđenje glavnim vinovnicima racije. Ono je koincidiralo sa promenom stava prema Srbima. Tada je suđeno: Ferencu Feketehalmi Cajdneru, Jožefu Grašiu, Laslu Deaku, Martonu Zeldiu i dragima. Namenjeno demokratskoj javnosti Zapada, i na određeni način Srbima (zadovoljenje za raciju), suđenje je okončano kao farsa, budući da je svim osuđenim omogućeno da u januara 1944.godine pobegnu avionom na nemačku teritoriju. Translation: ''From December 14th till 23rd December 1943 trial of main perpetuates of Novi Sad raid'was held. It coincided wiht change of policy toward Serbs. Among defendants were ], ], ], ] and others. It is intended for the democratic public of the West, and in a certain way to the Serbs (satisfaction for raid), the trial was concluded as a farce '''since all prisoners were allowed to flee by plan on German hold territory in January 1944.''''' I doubt that Dražević ever said that he himself killed 2,000 men, especially since that the commission found only . For exampe from Čačak died somewhere in Bosnia, perhaps from typhoid or killed in ] or ]). |
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I'll report this on Administrator noticeboard. I'm tired of you personal attack, trolling and using this page as forum. --]] 03:16, 30 April 2019 (UTC) |
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::You are making a scene now, because you are out of valid arguments, right? Look, both conversations were started by ''you'', the first one by ''pinging'' my name. I came to this talk page because you ''deleted properly referenced material'' (I have the right to defend myself). Besides, this was an appropriate ''discussion'' not using the page as forum (another false accusation). In meantime everyone can see that your arguments are ''disgusting''. Also, you already used a '']'' on me, while you are ''not ashamed'' for openly trying to justify ''proven war crimes'' (the 1944/45 purges). Also you openly reject the work of ''two national academy's'' on the subject, by stating they falsify data. Answer ''directly'' please: '''''do you refute the government-based official investigation?''''' After that we can continue to edit the article, like any other article. No need for fuss and tension here.–] (]) 21:36, 30 April 2019 (UTC) |
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:::And other peoples' arguments that are not in line with ''your'' thinking you can call bullshit, right? |
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::::{{ping|BokicaK}}I will try one more time, maybe I can make you understand (because this directly pertains to the title question of ''Cvetković''). Look, I stressed already that the data the comission collects is ''raw data'' out of the post-war communist archives. It is not data ''made-up'' by the collectors. But stating that the Serbian government is now allowing forgery of its own classified documents – that ''is'' a real bullshit my man! All this data we/you are talking about that is in the database originates from the post-war period. Are you really ignorant of this, or you are trying to distract us from that fact? (''Manipulating us'', maybe?) Please, if some data is messy it is not Cvetković's or anybody else's fault but fault of those state officials that made the papers in 1940's and 1950's and placed them in the national archives. Do you really failed to notice that on the bottom of each card it say which document the data is quoted from?? |
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::::And you fail to see one more important thing. While you openly accuse the ''Serbian Academy of Science'' of falsifying a legal procedure, you "forget" that many "legal" procedures that stated a person is shot as a "spy" or "enemy" was placed in the archives long after the person was already murdered. Besides that, the archived "court decree" of this kind do not present any proof. Just states fact of death and assumes the person was shot "rightfully". No hangmans name on the document, no court's address. You see, my man, this is not just ''a real'' bullshit but is also a ''war crime''. These kind of papers are right there in the communist archives – thousands of them – that besides all that were classified for over 60 years. Why they were not open for the public if war criminals were eliminated anyway? Do you actually see the fault of the logic of sentences that the executed died "in battles" earlier or later? Even if they did, why it was a national secret? The communists were very proud of all their achievements. Why was this different? What they were all of a sudden ashamed of? I know all communist regimes were secretive, but in this concrete case, what was hidden from the public and why? Besides all that, who knows how many papers are ''destroyed'' by the executioners later, and how many people were shot even ''without'' a paper. What are we talking about? Are we (I mean ''you'') talking bullshit?–] (]) 22:45, 30 April 2019 (UTC) |
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::::No, I'm full of arguments, but you don't read. I said in that ''OK, in the meantime Purić, Stranjaković were '''removed''' from the list.'' Then you did query and of course you didn't find their names, and then you dare to insult me. I didn't call You Nazi, I said ''It is good to know that you think followers of Nazissm aren't bad guys. '' Regarding two national academies, from Radanović: Imenik stradalih stanovnika AP Vojvodine 1941-1948.“ Anketnog odbora Skupštine AP Vojvodine (formiran 2003. sa zadatkom da utvrdi približan broj i sačini poimeničnu bazu podataka stradalih stanovnika Vojvodine 1941-1948) demantuje visoke procene Šandora Mesaroša i drugih autora koji su iznosili predimenzionirane brojke. Prema nepotpunim podacima Anketnog odbora, publikovanim 2008, poimenice je poznato ''4.424'' lica mađarske nacionalnosti koja su stradala na području Vojvodine 1941-1948. Od ovog broja, njih 394 stradali su tokom 1941-1943. Podatke Anketnog odbora dopunili su saradnici Državne komisije za tajne grobnice tako da je prema podacima evidentiranim do 6. decembra 2012. nakon oslobođenja stradalo najmanje ''5.521'' lice mađarske nacionalnosti na području Vojvodine i Beograda. Saradnici Državne komisije su, za razliku od saradnika Anketnog odbora, dobili na uvid matične knjige mesne zajednice Bački Jarak i opštine Temerin, što im je omogućilo da, na osnovu ovih i nekih drugih izvora, dopune podatke Anketnog odbora. |
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::::So, two ''academies'' could only make list of 5521 (as of 2012), and Czeres claimed, basing on hearsay, 40,000. Get it? --]] 02:51, 1 May 2019 (UTC) |
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I don't miss anything you say, unfortunately. But we are talking on two levels, each of us talk about a completely different thing. All you do is playing with the numbers of victims, tryng to lessen (as if that was possible!) the extent of the crime (reread your last sentence). On other instances you try to relativize the subject and try justify the killings, so indirectly you are defending the perpetrators. Please don't deny it, everybody sees what you are doing. Even in the article itself. By the way as for the article, in the serbian Misplaced Pages you directly demonstrated this by incredibly violent attitude against everyone and deleteing ''every'' edit that was not in line with your agenda. Whereas I – in line with the current official investigation – talk about things like ''how many '''innocents''' were killed, where they are buried, what was their name and how to bury them as human beings'' (I believe the government should exhume them and even pay their proper burial). Come on, what difference it makes if "only" 1000 was innocent out of 2000 executed? What about the 1000 then? What is your answer, solution? Leave them in the unsigned graves tigether with the criminals? (following your logic) You see, that is why the process of rehabilitation (independent investigation, without ]) is important. Do you see yourself and can you rethink your used arguments? The war was over before 74 years so today only the extent of war crime is important, because up to this day nobody was charged, and this was a top level national secret sealed in archives. So if you still don't understand why this is more important than the numbers the answer is '''''because war is over, we are not engaging in war anymore''''' (it looks like you still ''do'' in your head and heart) and the countries want to ensure peaceful future coegzistence, not to be forever stuck in the hatred game! Only ''rightful'' dealing with the past can settle this, and putting away with it but not to swipe it under the carpet, but putting ALL cards on the table (illuminating BOTH sides of the picture). I can write much much more, but you already lost your cool, and this is exactly what was on the Serbian Misplaced Pages – don't lead anywhere. |
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And you report as much as you can. So I can point to what you have done with me on the Serbian Misplaced Pages, how much bitterness I suffered because you and your idelogy friends persecuted me, frightening me with a power of administrator. You were problematic even as a sysop, and you have a record of misbehavior there that you cannot deny. And as for this here, if your intensions to settle the so-called "dispute" are honest, why didn't you notified me as is the Misplaced Pages procedure? You were a sysop for long time, you cannot say you don't know the rules. |
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P. S. As for who insults who. If you are really ''not interested in my nationality'', why did you stress not once but twice the Turan hunters? Even to the extent of almost writing an article here about them – doing this just because you think among the victims of purges was a Turan? According to this, who of us used this talk page for a forum? And what else was that if not manipulation aimed to my nationality? And sentences in bold like "local hungarians helped the nazis"?? What were you trying to prove with those if not that hungarians cannot be trusted? (By the way this exact phrase was used by the communists to start the purges in Vojvodina.) |
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For Turan hunters let me share this story: my dad was 14 years old and played near the camp of hungarian Turan hunters.{{efn|I made a mistake here. Based on the similarity of words I confused Turan hunters (Turáni vadászok) with the regular army unit Border hunters () – here's – <u>but the point remains the same</u>.<br><small>According to what I was able to look up the Hunters were national civil ''sportist organisation'', where people joined voluntarily (similar to ''Sokolski Savez'' in Serbia). They were not part of the military, although some active or retired soldiers were also members. It was active in Hungary until 1949, when the goverment declared it was with Anti-Soviet and anti communist sentiment. The reason of official ban was that it was without the permit from the government.</small>}} My dad was also hungarian, but these criminals cought him and beated him anyway. My dad says they were bored so they "played" a little with him by giving him slaps. He managed to escape. Only for the second try, because they caught him again. He was a skinny boy, these were strong men. My dad ''hated'' Hungary all his life because of this. Besides, my two uncles were partisans, fought in the battle of Batina..... And dear "friend" what do you think ''why'' I didn't share this true story here? Because there is no reason for it! It doesn't have to do anything with the title of ''this'' article, as much as your chetnik pictures don't! You place pictures of chetniks and nazis in the talk page about the victims of ''red terror'', and then you are complaining about somebody trolling ''you''? You ] using the talk page as a pasteboard, so what makes you nervous is basically ]. You can do this, but others' arguments make you pissed off.–] (]) 14:32, 1 May 2019 (UTC) |
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