Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:12, 29 June 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Armenian Revolutionary Federation article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 3 months

Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to Armenia, Azerbaijan, or related conflicts, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article: You must be logged-in to an extended confirmed account (granted automatically to accounts with 500 edits and an age of 30 days) Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

	Armenian Revolutionary Federation has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result January 20, 2024 Good article nominee Listed February 20, 2024 Peer review Reviewed July 29, 2009 Good article reassessment Kept
Current status: Good article

This  level-5 vital article is rated GA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Armenia High‑importance Armenian Revolutionary Federation is within the scope of WikiProject Armenia, an attempt to improve and better organize information in articles related or pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. If you would like to contribute or collaborate, you could edit the article attached to this page or visit the project page for further information.ArmeniaWikipedia:WikiProject ArmeniaTemplate:WikiProject ArmeniaArmenian High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Artsakh Mid‑importance Armenian Revolutionary Federation is within the scope of WikiProject Artsakh, an attempt to improve and better organize information in articles related or pertaining to Artsakh and Artsakhians. If you would like to contribute or collaborate, you could edit the article attached to this page or visit the project page for further information.ArtsakhWikipedia:WikiProject ArtsakhTemplate:WikiProject ArtsakhArtsakh Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Former countries: Ottoman Empire This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country This article is supported by WikiProject Ottoman Empire (assessed as Mid-importance). Lebanon Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lebanon, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Lebanon-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LebanonWikipedia:WikiProject LebanonTemplate:WikiProject LebanonLebanon Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Socialism Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Socialism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of socialism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SocialismWikipedia:WikiProject SocialismTemplate:WikiProject Socialismsocialism Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Politics: Political parties Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by Political parties task force (assessed as Mid-importance). Guild of Copy Editors This article was copy edited by Finetooth, a member of the Guild of Copy Editors, on 16 January 2008.Guild of Copy EditorsWikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsTemplate:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsGuild of Copy Editors

Daily page views Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. Updates on reimplementing the Graph extension, which will be known as the Chart extension, can be found on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org.

Archives

Archive 1 Archive 2

This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present.

Searches for Dashnaktsutiun, Dashnak Party and Dashnak should redirect here.

Ultranationalism

Im somewhat negative regarding the sources being used claiming the ARF is an ultranationalist party. While they may provide us with the term, neither says anything about why they perceive the ARF to be ultranationalist, nor what being an ultranationalist acctually implies. I think that such controversial statements as the ARF being ultranationalist requires sources that not only labels the party as such, but acctually gives a proper explaination as to why they use this label and not something less controversial! Personally i have not come across any sources, at least no modern ones, that describes the ARF as being ultranationalist. If better sources cant be found then i suggest the term is removed from the infobox! Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 21:45, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I will look for more sourcing, but there are far weaker sources then Samuel Huntington used for the infobox content. I would suggest reviewing those as well. For example, Institute for Democracy and Human Rights (IDHR) seems to be a pretty minor/poss. non-RS source used for significant content. I can't find anything about them in secondary sources to judge reliability. RFE/RL is not great either, because of it's checkered past it needs attribution. It's not strong enough for the infobox. The eurasianet source also doesn't provide any details what is meant. The LA TImes and Huntington sources are on par with other sources used in the article. Seraphim System 21:55, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Tiberius here. That term needs to go and it appears Seraphim used it to smear the ARF in an extensive editing spree targeting Armenian organizations. Seraphim has just recently posted a comment on my talk page characterizing the actions of these organizations as "Armenian nationalist terrorism" and insisting we use Armenian Genocide denialists as "reliable sources". So it appears Seraphim is pushing a hard line Turkish nationalist POV as evident by these edits themselves. As for Huntington and the LA Times piece of 1995, I shouldn't repeat myself here. Strong bold claims need strong bold sources by those who are knowledgeable about the subject at hand. These are not authoritative works and it's for this reason why some authors who are not knowledgeable about Armenian affairs will use terms like "ultranationalist" on a whim but really have no such basis to fall back on upon further scrutinization. Étienne Dolet (talk) 22:32, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

On that note I'm taking this to AE for personal attacks/WP:ASPERSIONS per this hard line Turkish nationalist POV. Good luck proving that based on my editing history - I've made countless edits that would be inconsistent with a hard line Turkish nationalist POV and I consider this a baseless personal attack, and it's not the first time. This is right after I posted a reminder about personal attacks/ASPERSIONS on Etienne's talk page. ASALA was a terrorist organization based on WP:RS. They placed a bomb at an airport in Paris that killed eight people in the 1983 Orly Airport attack. Adding content about that is not genocide denial, but you can explain why you think it is at AE. Seraphim System 22:44, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Unless you want to file a complaint at WP:AE yourself that provides evidence that Seraphim is pushing a hard line Turkish nationalist POV, it's not acceptable to keep repeating these types of WP:ASPERSIONS on talk pages after an editor has asked you to stop multiple times. If you have evidence, you should file it at WP:AE. I will give you some time to decide. (Unfortunately I can't file a complaint for repeated WP:ASPERSIONS because Etienne's D/S notice had expired, so I have just opted to issue a new one this time. I would still recommend striking the completely baseless personal attack and keeping future comments limited strictly to sourcing and article content (preferably this article and not some other article). Seraphim System 22:49, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

ASALA was a terrorist organization based on WP:RS. - this is what I mean by WP:POVPUSHING and you should really read WP:TERRORIST. You've confessed to your personal beliefs just now and your editing pattern reflects that (i.e. using an Armenian Genocide denier who's hell-bent to portray Armenians as terrorists). Sure, you haven't used the word "terrorist" to describe ASALA on the main article, but expounding your personal beliefs that ASALA is a terrorist organization coupled with the fact that you're using an Armenian Genocide denialist as a "reliable source" isn't really helping your cause here. Étienne Dolet (talk) 23:03, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

The statement that ASALA was a terrorist organization based on WP:RS means that WP:RS support the statement that ASALA is a terrorist organization. My personal beliefs are not sanctionable. The fact that I added neutrally worded content to the article describing them as a "militant organization" is more then I'm required to do under WP:TERRORIST because they are widely described as a terrorist organization. This is not really enough for an AE complaint, but I still think you should strike the hard line Turkish nationalist POV comment, as it is pure horse manure.Seraphim System 23:09, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I didn't say you used the term in the article. In fact, I was pretty clear: Sure, you haven't used the word "terrorist" to describe ASALA on the main article, but expounding your personal beliefs that ASALA is a terrorist organization coupled with the fact that you're using an Armenian Genocide denialist as a "reliable source" isn't really helping your cause here. You used a Armenian Genocide denialist source and even after I pointed that out to you, you still claimed it to be a reliable source. Étienne Dolet (talk) 23:14, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

As I said on your talk page, very gently and politely, in a comment you reverted with a personal attack, and followed up with further personal attacks, I am strongly encouraging you to present your evidence for those statements at WP:RS/N and see if the community supports a blanket ban or just a ban for his WP:FRINGE viewpoints. Usually we exclude viewpoints, not scholars. (Unless it is something like David Duke where we can assume WP:FRINGE but these cases are very rare). The fact that this is something you feel passionately about does not alter our usual processes. We all have things we feel passionately about.Seraphim System 23:19, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

something you feel passionately about - talk about personal attacks. How do you know what I feel passionately about? Plus, if you want to inquire about the exception to the long-standing consensus of Armenian Genocide deniers not being WP:RS, by all means head over to the RSN yourself and see how that'll work out for you. As for me, I don't see why I should argue that the WP:SKYISBLUE here. Étienne Dolet (talk) 23:33, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm not going to keep repeating myself, especially as it seems I can't say anything right. It seems to me you are passionate about this because from your edit history, it seems like you edit on this subject frequently (if not exclusively). The tone of your comments also comes across as very heated at times, and in assuming good faith, I assume this is due to your having strong feelings on the topic rather then deliberate maliciousness. Usually we acknowledge this as a nod to the fact that editors acting in good faith can get heated sometimes. The intent behind the statement is not to attack you ... I am sorry you feel attacked. But, if you want to strip a highly-cited academic source written by a recognized scholar from multiple articles, you are the one that needs a consensus at WP:RS/N. Until then you have no justification for removal of sourced content on the grounds of non-reliability. Unless such a discussion takes place, I intend to continue using Gunter in a limited capacity (though I have never used him for his opinion of whether the genocide occurred).Seraphim System 23:44, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with labeling the ARF as ultranationalist․ The two sources already provided are fine. --Երևանցի 07:43, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

The problem is that labeling anyone ultranationalist is usually a bit controversial. Both sources simply call the party ultranationalist without giving an explanation as to why they are ultranationalist and not just nationalist like the party claims itself. It is also uncertain how much the authors of the sources know about the party itself, such as it's official socialist position. The fact remains that for controversial labels not used by the party itself, a source should explain more about excactly why the party is ultranationalist, and not just a follower of a more moderate form of nationalism. Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 10:50, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Once again, (ultra)nationalism is not mutually exclusive with socialism. See left-wing nationalism for more. As for the ARF, the party literally calls for a United Armenia which includes territories of Armenia's neighboring countries. For most Armenians (including me), this is justified and rightful to at least some extent, but if that does not make it ultranationalist, than I don't what does. ----Երևանցի 12:56, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Not sure how WP:ASPERSIONS applies to EtienneDolet here. Its nuts to use Armenian Genocide denialists on Armenia-related topics other than the Armenian Genocide denial article (talking about Michael M. Gunter). I think ED simply decided to call a spade a spade. Having said that, there are several RS sources out there that call the ARF "Ultranationalist" (a quick search), but most of them, as far as I can see, are at least 10-20 yrs old. - LouisAragon (talk) 20:42, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

That’s right. All these sources are outdated and there’s really no detailed analysis as to why they consider them “ultranationalist” (whatever that means). The claim that they’re ultranationalist is made by journalists who have no expertise on the topic and seem to have used the term on a whim without much thought into it. Hence why I removed it. Étienne Dolet (talk) 23:19, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Operation in Artsakh

“As of 2023, the party operates in Armenia, Artsakh, Lebanon, Iran and in countries where the Armenian diaspora is present.”

Second time commenting on here but this was the case for the article of Transnistria as well. The government of Artsakh dissolved in September following an Azerbaijani attack that seized the region. Not sure how to edit but just wanted to state 50.26.186.162 (talk) 05:51, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Paragraph irrelevant to heading

The following is the first paragraph under the heading "Young Turk Revolution":

In the 1890s the party used terrorism against the Ottoman Empire and Russia with the goal of gaining an independent nation, more well known attacks occurred against Bedros Kapamciyan, the mayor of Van who was assassinated in December 1912, and the assassination of archbishop Leon Tourian in New York City on December 24, 1933.

Only the incident in 1912 is relevant to that segment and the source used is by a Turkish nationalist author. I would remove that short paragraph completely but I'd, if it has to stay, at least call for a better source and move it somewhere else in the article. AlenVaneci (talk) 11:17, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Russophilia

Hello, The Armenian Revolutionary Federation cannot be characterized with "Russophilia" as done in the sidebar of the article. The party is far from that, in reality. The party has collaborated with the Russians due to geographic proximity and strategic interests. However, the ARF's main policy is Armenophilia, as the party is created by and for the Armenian people. Its goals are the liberation of lost Armenian lands and justice for the Armenian Genocide. The party has nothing to do with loving the Russians and obsessing with them. I cannot edit this article, but I request someone remove that term. ProtoCS (talk) 01:32, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

GA concerns

After quickly skimming the article, I am concerened that it does not meet the good article criteria anymore. Some of my concerns are listed below:

• The lede, at 7 paragrphs, is far more than the 3-4 recommended at WP:LEDE.
• There are numerous uncited sections, including entire paragraphs.
• There are numerous paragraphs that are one line long. These should be merged and copyedited.

Is anyone interested in addressing these concerns, or should this article go to WP:GAR? Z1720 (talk) 20:20, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

These problems are too extensive, I think, to be addressed in a short amount of time. It should probably go to WP:GAR. Best, Revolution Saga (talk) 21:19, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Template

@Archives908 Hi. I don't think there is a credible reason to restore this template by the blocked user because if you read the article, nowhere does it say the whole ARF collaborated with Nazis, this is what the relevant sentence says: "During World War II, some Berlin-based ARF members saw an opportunity to remove Soviet control from Armenia by supporting the Nazis." So according to the article, only some ARF members collaborated, not the whole organization. Therefore the template should be removed, it doesn't pertain to the whole of ARF which this article is. Vanezi (talk) 18:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages good articles
• Social sciences and society good articles
• Old requests for peer review
• GA-Class level-5 vital articles
• Misplaced Pages level-5 vital articles in Society and social sciences
• GA-Class vital articles in Society and social sciences
• GA-Class Armenian articles
• High-importance Armenian articles
• WikiProject Armenia articles
• GA-Class Artsakh articles
• Mid-importance Artsakh articles
• WikiProject Artsakh articles
• GA-Class former country articles
• GA-Class Ottoman Empire articles
• Mid-importance Ottoman Empire articles
• WikiProject Ottoman Empire articles
• WikiProject Former countries articles
• GA-Class Lebanon articles
• Mid-importance Lebanon articles
• WikiProject Lebanon articles
• GA-Class socialism articles
• Mid-importance socialism articles
• WikiProject Socialism articles
• GA-Class politics articles
• Mid-importance politics articles
• GA-Class political party articles
• Mid-importance political party articles
• Political parties task force articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• Articles copy edited by the Guild of Copy Editors