Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:29, 1 July 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Transgender rights in the United Kingdom article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 2 months

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

This article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Guild of Copy Editors This article was copy edited by a member of the Guild of Copy Editors.Guild of Copy EditorsWikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsTemplate:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsGuild of Copy Editors Discrimination This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale. Gender studies Mid‑importance This article is part of WikiProject Gender studies. This WikiProject aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page for more information.Gender studiesWikipedia:WikiProject Gender studiesTemplate:WikiProject Gender studiesGender studies Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. To-do list: Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Assess : see Unassessed Gender studies articles and Unknown-importance Gender studies articles Cleanup : edit to see Collaborate : see /Collaboration Copyedit : edit to see Deletion sorting : see /Sexuality and gender Expand : edit to see Infobox : see Gender studies articles needing infoboxes Merge : edit to see Notability : edit to see NPOV : edit to see Orphans : Brannon Masculinity Scale · Holy Virility · Media and gender · Michael Kaufman (author) · Women's education in Saudi Arabia Photo : see Misplaced Pages requested photographs of gender studies Split : History of feminism Stubs : see Gender studies stubs Translate : see /translation Update : edit to see Verify : Riot grrrl Needs attention : see Gender studies articles needing attention Human rights Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Human rights on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. LGBTQ+ studies This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBTQ-related issues on Misplaced Pages. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBTQ+ studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesLGBTQ+ studies Law Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Law, an attempt at providing a comprehensive, standardised, pan-jurisdictional and up-to-date resource for the legal field and the subjects encompassed by it.LawWikipedia:WikiProject LawTemplate:WikiProject Lawlaw Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Politics of the United Kingdom Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Politics of the United Kingdom on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Politics of the United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject Politics of the United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject Politics of the United KingdomPolitics of the United Kingdom Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. United Kingdom Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United Kingdom on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject United KingdomUnited Kingdom Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Lede changes: and Gender recognition / In June 2020, a report published by the European Commission...

Thanks https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Raladic for your edits. And comments on my talk page. I've shortened my changes to Gender recognition as requested and left in the main sentences you wanted. (The report grouped cluster 1 and 2 as "least accessible", so saying anything than that is pushing a WP:POV)

I have added the list of countries in the same Cluster as the UK: as that helps the reader to get context. As does including a half-sentence more from the CoE's definition of Cluster 2.

Regards the lede you wrote: "the lead should summarize, briefly what the article is about, but not have more details than the article itself. "

My change was to correct a misleading quotation: the fuller sentence makes it clearer for the reader:

• The Council of Europe reported of the UK that "anti-trans rhetoric, arguing that sex is immutable and gender identities not valid, has also been gaining baseless and concerning credibility, at the expense of both trans people’s civil liberties and women’s and children’s rights."

Rather than

• The Council of Europe criticised what it described as a "baseless and concerning" level of transphobia gaining traction in British society.

But you are right - the main body would also benefit from that full quotation.Peckedagain (talk) 23:06, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for the inclusion of the other cluster 2 countries, which I left in the edit.

As for the lead summary - anti-trans rhetoric is akin to transphobia and the summarized sentence does accurately summarize what the report summarized, so the expanded full quote doesn't add anything (other than more words than are necessary for the lead) that isn't already appropriatly summarized in the lead. If you want to expand further on it, that should go into the body of the article at the section on Transgender rights in the United Kingdom#Transphobia and "TERF Island" debate, which has more details on the report (and some others).

In general, the lead follows what the article says as a brief summary, typically in our own wikivoice. Raladic (talk) 23:33, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Terms can mean more than one thing

Imagine if someone went to the article on Manchester United and insisted that they were a "soccer team" because football was the thing the Steelers played. Anyone aware that a term sometimes meant more than one thing would be incredulous at such an insistence. 2600:1002:B166:6EC:0:3B:BD7A:6401 (talk) 14:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

You're talking about the HRT thing, right? If so, I've just fixed the red link and changed the text to just "hormone therapy". I agree that "replacement" is in no way incorrect in this context, and it is one of the synonyms in the liked article, but it might confuse some readers who are used to seeing HRT used in a different context so it is probably better to let them click through if they want to know more. --DanielRigal (talk) 14:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I was actually thinking of adding it back myself but I noticed the page was already linked in the same section a few paragraphs earlier. (No strong feelings either way though, not going to remove it now it's there again) Alpha3031 (t • c) 16:42, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 May 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

"social" challenges in the lede then goes on to describe legal challenges (and trans people certainly face medical challenges that cis people do not). Change this to just "challenges"? Sock-the-guy (talk) 23:11, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

This page is not protected. You can edit it yourself. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 00:32, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Weird! I could've sworn there was a little lock blocking the edit button. Thanks for letting me know! Sock-the-guy (talk) 04:59, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Trans women prisoners

@Useful1: Please stop changing the wording on trans women prisoners. Your changes make the text incomprehensible. A ‘female trans prisoner’ would be a trans man. It is trans women we are talking about here. Also, please note that your changes are not minor; in the Misplaced Pages sense of the term, a ‘minor’ edit is one which would not reasonably be disputed, e.g. correcting a typo. Sweet6970 (talk) 11:29, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

While you are correct to request that Useful1 leave the original wording alone, this is an inappropriate, inflammatory and counterproductive way to make that request. Please strike your claim that "A ‘female trans prisoner’ would be a trans man.". Not only is this incorrect, it is needlessly offensive to a point where it is as likely to make Useful1 believe that your request can safely be ignored as to actually achieve what you want.

@Useful1: The best way to make sure that all readers understand the article correctly is to use the phrase "trans women prisoners" (or maybe "transgender women prisoners"). This is correct, unambiguous and universally accepted terminology. It avoids opening the door to pointless arguments torturing the words "male" and "female" in weird, confusing and unhelpful ways. Also, please read Help:Minor edit to see when to use the minor edit tickbox. Our definition of a "minor edit" is far tighter than you might have expected. (Don't worry. It catches a lot of people out.) The best approach is to not tick it if you are in any doubt at all whether you should. Nobody gets told off for not ticking it. There is an option in the settings to make all edits minor by default. Please make sure that this is turned off. It is a bad option that is basically just a rake for unsuspecting people to step on. DanielRigal (talk) 16:08, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

My 2 cents is that both options have issues.

• I actually agree with Sweet6970 that "female trans prisoners" sounds like it refers to trans men (it comes off as a really weird and derogatory way to refer to them, but it does come off as referring to them). The use of male/female is to refer to sex in the common parlance, and trans-female/trans-male for trans women and men respectively were advocated for a few decades ago but never got widespread acceptance.
• "trans women prisoners" just sounds clunky and would for any demographic - you'd never see "asian women prisoners" or etc because "prisoner" is a noun but so is "woman" and "adjective-noun noun" is "noun noun" when we're trying to convey "adjective-adjective-noun".

As such, I think the text should be imprisoned transgender women as a clear and readable alternative. Alternatively transfeminine prisoners could work, but is likely to confuse our readers (and is likely too much a stress from the sourcing) so I think the former is preferable. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 16:31, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I think your suggestion of imprisoned transgender women works the best grammatically and is clear. Raladic (talk) 20:23, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I made a similar change just now in Special:Diff/1225542529, although I didn't end up using imprisoned trans women exactly. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 03:22, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I like RoxySaunders’ elegant solution to the wording problem. I have added back the qualification in the Scottish policy, that the prisoners would have to be considered a risk to women and girls, as well as having a relevant conviction. Sweet6970 (talk) 11:58, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Since Transgender is a Gender identity, why not keep it simple, clear and understandable and say transgender-identifying (or even trans-identifying for brevity)? Zeno27 (talk) 18:04, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

For the same reason we don't say asian-identifying, black-identifiying, cisgender-identifying, heterosexual-identifying or weird phrases like that - we don't need to strap the word "identifying" on when speaking about identity. Additionally, it raises confusion, as "trans-identifying" doesn't specify mtf or ftm, and it is additionally generally used as a dogwhistle to misgender (ie, "trans identified males" to refer to trans women).. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 18:39, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah. This is definitely terminology to very strongly avoid using, even on a Talk page. It may be that some people might have picked it up in good faith without realising what is going on, so I don't want to bite anybody's head off here, but it is intentionally obfuscatory language designed to confuse those who are not in the know and to act as a dog-whistle to those who are. DanielRigal (talk) 18:59, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

This site is a complete joke. Don't use wikipedia for researh. Anyone can take/put anything on here. If you want to get relialbe information cross reference actual sources. Useful1 (talk) 03:19, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Or just vist less visted pages. But you've been warned. Useful1 (talk) 03:21, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

@Useful1: On the contrary to "anyone can put anything", this discussion is a textbook example of the WP:Bold, Revert, Discuss editing process. The article now says trans women imprisoned instead of trans women prisoners. Does this satisfy your original goal?

If you have other compelling points for why the exact phrase trans female prisoners is necessary here (preferably not based on wild accusations of sexism or transmisogyny), you can still argue them, but consensus here seems to be that trans female is a potentially confusing term which should be avoided.

I'm sorry you had a frustrating experience editing Misplaced Pages. I hope you try again later. Consider brushing up on the project's rules or try WP:The Misplaced Pages Adventure, and give it another shot. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 15:29, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

On the whole I think it's still perfectly fine and grammatical for articles and categories to use women X and trans women X as adjectives (e.g. Category:Women composers, Category:Transgender women writers) when the only alternative is something pathologizing like MTF transgender or a less exact term like transfeminine. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 15:38, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Criminal Tribes Act

Apparently the Criminal Tribes Act criminalized the Hijra under British colonial rule of India. It could, maybe, be relevant to historical context. This retelling in BBC News mentions "commentators" who associated hijras with "filth, disease, contagion and contamination" and claimed they were "addicted to sex with men". VintageVernacular (talk) 13:42, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

That would not be relevant to this article, which is about rights in the UK. Sweet6970 (talk) 15:26, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

While I'm not proposing a specific change, it may be a line of inquiry for interested editors to produce some. In gay rights contexts WP discusses some historical laws against gay sex for instance to provide background context (in that case, such laws were imposed on colonial subjects which has had lasting effects in e.g. Africa). I'm not sure how we categorize this but India would have been under British administration and it can reflect historical cultural attitudes back in the homeland of an empire as well. VintageVernacular (talk) 16:32, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

This article is specifically "in the United Kingdom", while the Hijra are primarily in India. Although there is a history of colonialism with regard to the influence of British rule over India, the material would probably be best added to LGBT rights in India, LGBT history in India, or some similar page. The United Kingdom is specifically England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.

It depends on the content added, though. I can potentially see some statements about, e.g., laws against homosexuality or transgender people, that originated in the UK, and were propagated to British colonies, being mentioned briefly in this article (in a section on history), with a wikilink to the article for that other country containing the more detailed history. That seems like it would be in scope. Hist9600 (talk) 01:29, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

• Articles copy edited by the Guild of Copy Editors
• C-Class Discrimination articles
• Unknown-importance Discrimination articles
• WikiProject Discrimination articles
• C-Class Gender studies articles
• Mid-importance Gender studies articles
• WikiProject Gender studies articles
• C-Class Human rights articles
• Mid-importance Human rights articles
• WikiProject Human rights articles
• C-Class LGBTQ+ studies articles
• WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies articles
• C-Class law articles
• Low-importance law articles
• WikiProject Law articles
• C-Class Politics of the United Kingdom articles
• Mid-importance Politics of the United Kingdom articles
• C-Class United Kingdom articles
• Mid-importance United Kingdom articles
• WikiProject United Kingdom articles