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This noticeboard is for discussing the application of the biographies of living people (BLP) policy to article content. Please seek to resolve issues on the article talk page first, and only post here if that discussion requires additional input.

Do not copy and paste defamatory material here; instead, link to a diff showing the problem.

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• Edits by the subject of an article may be welcome in some cases.
• For general content disputes regarding biographical articles, try Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Biographies instead.
• Editors are encouraged to assist editors regarding the reports below. Administrators may impose contentious topic restrictions to enforce policies.

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• A request for adminship is open for discussion.
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• Allowing page movers to enable two-factor authentication
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Ashley Gjøvik

• Ashley Gjøvik (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

A request at WP:RPPI from an IP asks that this article be semi-protected. Another IP opposes the first. There is a storm of editing going on there and I'm hoping someone will work out what is going on and whether admin action is needed. Johnuniq (talk) 10:02, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

This is a massive WP:BLPPRIMARY mine field with too many things cited solely to court documents. One IP had the nerve to revert and wikilawyer an administrator, Fences and windows. I have a suspicion these ip addresses are PR-ing and litigating through wikipedia and the article needs an extensive clean-up. Morbidthoughts (talk) 18:34, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

For those that don't know there was some previous disputes that seemed to be going on on and off wiki that resulted in both the subject and someone they were in dispute with being blocked and banned respectively. See e.g. Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1100#Ban evasion, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard/Archive 13#Arbitration motion regarding HazelBasil and SquareInARoundHole and Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 184#Cher Scarlett, Ashley Gjøvik, Ifeoma Ozoma, & Apple Worker Organizations. I have no idea if the other party is still socking if they are, perhaps longer term semi protection should be considered. While the subject remains blocked, I would suggest emailing about problems would be a better solution than posting about it on Twitter. Nil Einne (talk) 19:15, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

There is a pattern of IP addresses that have never made edits to WP before making 1 or 2 edits and then disappearing. I suggest that the person doing this knows what they're doing and is doing this intentionally to evade a previous ban. See evidence from here Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Single-edit_IPs_vandalizing_Ashley_Gjøvik_page and in particular, this section posted to another user's talk page from a throwaway IP accusing that editor of "casting aspersions" for making claims that this IP-hopper isn't (implausibly) a new person for every new IP they're using. I wasn't aware of the history of this page before the recent twitter threads, news articles etc., but based on what you have linked above, I think it's very plausible that this IP hopper is the same person as SquareInARoundHole. Note: I've only made a couple edits since my dynamic IP rotated last night, but I'm not intentionally changing my IP after every edit like this person or using proxies across many different ISPs. I am the same person that used Special:Contributions/76.6.213.65 for the past couple weeks. 76.6.210.82 (talk) 07:01, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I did an extensive clean-up that addressed the BLPPRIMARY and ABOUTSELF concerns. Morbidthoughts (talk) 22:55, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

That's impressive work, Morbidthoughts, because that article was a mess. – notwally (talk) 00:34, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

It may be noted for the record that this article and Cher Scarlett were, some years ago, the subject of a protracted episode involving both of the articles' subjects themselves. jp×g🗯️ 23:47, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

See Special:Permalink/1071273528#Arbitration_motion_regarding_HazelBasil_and_SquareInARoundHole. I believe there was some big noticeboard kerfluffu as well, although I don't have a link on hand. jp×g🗯️ 23:50, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Question: I am not overly familiar with BLP policies. Is the reason that court documents are not allowed is that they become Original Research because they are easy to MIS-interpret? (I saw lots of those additions, but didn't know about the applicability of court documents as sources for what seemed to be simple statements like "lawsuit dismissed with/out prejudice").

I understand WP:BLP : "Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person." - but I would think that would pertain to info like allegations of misconduct/criminal charges, not whether a lawsuit is active, dismissed, settled, or adjudicated. ---Avatar317 00:58, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I take a broad view of WP:BLPPRIMARY's prohibition. The need to complete a story is not a reason to start ignoring this policy. It is an argument that is against WP:WEIGHT if no secondary reliable sources report on the outcome. Morbidthoughts (talk) 01:17, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I think WP:PRIMARY as well is important regardless of BLP concerns, including its interaction with WP:INDISCRIMINATE and WP:NOTEWORTHY. A missing detail that is truly important may be useful to pull from a primary source in certain circumstances (much less likely in a BLP given WP:BLPPRIMARY), but determining how much to include in an article is difficult enough using secondary sources, not to mention primary sources. – notwally (talk) 01:31, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Published case law (which is not court documents in the sense of public records) is used frequently on Misplaced Pages - quick search of Reuters casetext yields 1,100 results. Many are on BLPs. WP:RSLAW is worth a read. RICO is pretty much the most serious accusation someone can lodge and the only source of it is an Apple blog. If it's worth including, I can't see how published case law that it was dismissed (especially with prejudice) isn't also warranted. The fact it was adjudicated doesn't seem like a minor detail. Changed my mind on this because of Johnuniq's note below. Say ocean again (talk) 15:00, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Published case opinions are court documents and have to be handled the same way on Misplaced Pages because they implicate many of the same concerns with their usage, whether that is privacy of living people or the issues interpreting them by anyone who can edit here. Also, dismissal with prejudice is not necessarily an adjudication on the merits, and there are significantly more serious accusations than a RICO lawsuit filed by an employee for retaliation and fraud. Claiming that WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a very persuasive argument, especially on this noticeboard dealing with the strict guidelines for BLPs. – notwally (talk) 06:07, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Note this IP address has only ever made this one edit, to this talk page. See above about sockpuppeting on this article as this editor is almost certainly a known quantity; since they are no longer able to edit the article, they are now editing administrative threads trying to influence how it is being edited.

I've only made a couple edits since my IP rotated last night, but I'm not intentionally changing my IP after every edit like this person. I am the same person that used Special:Contributions/76.6.213.65 for the past couple weeks. 76.6.210.82 (talk) 06:55, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't control my IP address and have never contributed in a way that wasn't clear I'm one person. I requested page protections for the very reason that you and unknown number of others were edit warring and the article itself was posted on as a community note from a Twitter thread with tens of thousands of retweets.

I made an account to make it clear, even though I disagree with it on principle for the purpose of this BLPN conversation. Say ocean again (talk) 14:12, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I was saying that they are Misplaced Pages:Published vs Misplaced Pages:Public records, not that they aren't court documents.

My question is whether or not AppleInsider is a reliable source for inclusion on a BLP.

A second question would be for lawsuits and legal complaints that are never reported on again, at what point should we remove them from a BLP as Misplaced Pages:Recentism, if we cannot include case law? Say ocean again (talk) 13:50, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

The issue about AppleInsider should be up for discussion. Even if reliable, it and another source, Index on Censorship, definitely should not be given as much as weight as sources like Financial Times, The Verge, or New York Times. Morbidthoughts (talk) 22:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Discussion: Talk:Ashley Gjøvik#Inclusion of content and sources Say ocean again (talk) 03:55, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Using court documents and similar is very undesirable because their meaning can be misunderstood by onlookers, and because they can be contradicted in another document, and because an opponent of the subject can easily cherry-pick undue negativity from a laundry-list of assertions. Using a secondary source is supposed to shift the burden of deciding what reporting is appropriate from an anyone-can-edit contributor to the editorial team of the secondary source. Johnuniq (talk) 04:57, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

• FYI, I have semi-protected the article for 6 months. Lectonar (talk) 14:16, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

FYI, there's a related conversation happening at Misplaced Pages talk:Biographies of living persons#Published judicial documents with good information on this topic. Say ocean again (talk) 14:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Discussion about inclusion of content

Content from Special:Diff/1231386224/1231391075

Moved to: Talk:Ashley Gjøvik#Inclusion of content and sources Say ocean again (talk) 03:19, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Say ocean again (talk) 00:48, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

This kind of extensive, detailed discussion is probably better had on the article's talk page. – notwally (talk) 03:03, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Julie Johnson (actress)

Julie Johnson was married to David Lee Johnson from 1997-2002 and had one child, Trey in 1998.

Julie’s father was named David Lee Johnson, so when she married my brother David it created a lot of confusion with the invitations. This is also why Julie’s son is called Trey, since both his father and grandfather were named David Lee (though not related).

Source: I am David’s brother and Trey’s uncle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.248.1.244 (talk) 18:20, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Sources based off of one's unpublished personal knowledge has a shelf life. Do you have a published third-party source that corroborates this? —Jéské Couriano v^_^v 18:22, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

I couldn't find any source for that marriage or the marriage to Dylan Paul Thomas that was in the article, and so I removed it for now. – notwally (talk) 05:50, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Mohamed Ashmalee

Mohamed Ashmalee (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The article about Mohamed Ashmalee was (or is) in a horrible state. A large section, restored by multiple experienced editors since 2022 turns out to be a verbatim copy of the cited non-free source, et cetera. Courtesy ping Suonii180, LizardJr8, Kleuske and Midori No Sora who could perhaps have noticed this when verifying whether the section restored by them is actually backed by the cited source. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 02:23, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• I didn't notice that there was a copyvio involved. In hindsight I should have looked a little deeper into how much text was added for the corruption allegation; but I don't see anything that disqualifies the source itself.

I was not sure of the motives behind repeatedly removing text with no explanation other than "wrong", "untrue" or "truth" when I engaged once. I would agree a deeper look is needed into the subject. LizardJr8 (talk) 21:30, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• I've reverted this only edit because I thought the IP address removed a large section of the article without giving a valid reason. I also didn't notice that section of the article was a copyright violation. Looking at the history, several IP addresses and users were indeed removing that section, but some weren't providing an edit summary or were explaining that it was "the truth" or simply: "yes", which sounded suspicious.

I've also requested CSD of the image, as that portrait was taken from the person's Facebook account and was sourced as "Own work". 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁＝☁＝✈) 00:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

• I've opened a discussion at the talk page to discuss content addition proposals. I've also edited the article to remove generic urls that failed WP:V, unarchived dead links, and lots of stray caps (copyediting). I tagged unreffed claims; this content currently is the majority of the article. I have not removed unreffed claims that touch on notability, but a few unrelated ones got the scalpel. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 01:02, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

• This matter has been forwarded to WP:Articles for deletion/Mohamed Ashmalee. I did not mention the BLP violations, but IYKYK. Thanks to all for input anyone has at AfD. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 03:28, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Olu Jacobs (Case of death and Disruptive editings on the article page)

There are death rumors surrounding this person. See Talk:Olu Jacobs#Is Olu Jacobs dead? and the article page and help revert Vandalism Wår (talk) 15:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Family Tree templates and BLP

I came across this family tree today, which includes the full names of living (and dead) people, some with articles and others who are apparently non-notable, and it's all entirely unsourced. WP:BLPNAME suggests that we remove the names of living persons who not notable public figures—but that defeats the purpose of a family tree. Maybe that's a good thing?

Category:Family tree templates is filled with family trees, though many of them are for (long dead) historical figures, historical dynasties, animal groups, languages—those should all be fine. But is there a bigger problem with family trees that are unsourced and/or include the names of non-notable living persons? Woodroar (talk) 15:22, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The sourcing and whether filiation is contentious are the main concerns. But mere mentions of non-notables are less inherently problematic than they are a threshold determination for requiring sources and solid ones for contentious claims. JFHJr (㊟) 21:37, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

In the tree you linked, the forefathers and siblings of Naqi Ali appear irrelevant. So do Hasnain Raza and Faiz Raza; they could all probably be removed unless there's some kind of relevance to an article's content and it's supported by a reliable source. JFHJr (㊟) 21:42, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the lack of sourcing is an issue, and that some content (at least) should be removed. But doesn't WP:BLPNAME suggest that we remove every non-notable person? Should we replace removed names with any placeholder text?

I also wonder what the point is. A family tree might be relevant in, say, articles about royal families where everyone is notable. But what use are they when only half of the people mentioned are notable—especially if we end up having to remove the names of non-notables? Woodroar (talk) 21:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Clementine Ford (writer)

I wanted to get some input here from others before I take a large action, since I see from the talk page of Clementine Ford (writer) that, while there's a lot of separate sections and concerns raised, no one has done anything.

The entirety of the rather lengthy "Social media" section should just be removed, right? Like, pretty much everything in it is a BLP violation using individual news articles to discuss individual tweets or things on Facebook or other nonsense, right? I'm trying to make sure I'm not missing something obvious here. Silverseren 21:50, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

You are correct. I'm handing you my cleaver while I step away for some time in the dirt. I'll check back in a few hours. JFHJr (㊟) 21:53, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The first paragraph seemed ok to me, but maybe I'm missing something. VQuakr (talk) 23:33, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

In my edit summary when I removed the section, I noted that some of the content could be potentially salvageable. But would need to be rewritten and reorganized. And probably shouldn't have its own section just for that. Silverseren 00:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

@Silver seren: Great work, looks better! I agree with the WP:WEIGHT concerns: a separate social media section is probably not going to be up to snuff. With the same concerns, I've condensed sections for topical relevance and moved a glut of refs from the lede to the body (and removed one primary ref that served no purpose). Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 02:41, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

TESCREAL#Alleged TESCREALists

I want some input. Following WP:BLP, @Avatar317 removed significant amounts of material from the TESCREAL article (See diff

I'd argue material is fairly well sourced, and many of these figures are WP:PUBLICFIGURE (i.e. Elon Musk, SBF, Sam Altman, and various high level philosophers).

As per WP:BLP, in cases of conflict, I was told to escalate here on noticeboard for suggestions from community.

Some background:

• Admin Arbitrarily0 closed an AfD for TESCREAL with merge on December 2023. It was closed for lack of WP:N
• Multiple sources since December have used the term and analyzed it. I used Draftspace to improve and asked User_talk:Arbitrarily0#Draft:TESCREAL to see if it could be undeleted.
• It was undeleted today by admin. Avatar317 is upset and has also opposed Template:Did_you_know_nominations/TESCREAL

Bluethricecreamman (talk) 01:40, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

From WP:PUBLICFIGURE:"If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out." ---Avatar317 03:07, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

@Avatar317: Could you be more specific about which portion of this section is of concern for you? GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 03:17, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Anything OTHER than self-described TECREALISTS. ---Avatar317 03:23, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Can you provide a reason why? We need specifics other than "I hate this article and will throw what I can as WP:WIKILAWYER".

We addressed these are all public figures, that there is significant useful sourcing for most of these claims. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

We are describing this supposed philosophy as being akin to a secular religion. We would likely avoid branding anyone with a religion that they have not chosen to identify with. The claim that it is not a pejorative is at odds with the statement in the intro that "the acronym is sometimes used to criticize a perceived belief system associated with Big Tech". It is not a term developed by holders of the belief to identify themselves, and it is hard to see that it's something we should be using to label people any more than "woke" or "TERF". -- Nat Gertler (talk) 02:22, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Currently, nearly all figures in the section have multiple sources.

Maybe Peter Thiel could be removed for now, as well as Ray Kurzweil. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:22, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I can't read the FinancialTimes article, because it is behind a paywall. Can you please provide quotes, because the association to Musk via one quote where he said he liked the Russian guy well known as a Cosmist was used as the ultimate source for Musk's connection in the first deleted article, and that alleged connection was deemed to be WAY too weak of a connection. ---Avatar317 03:25, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

2 of the 9 paragraphs deal with Musk in this source. The formatting gets messed up on copy paste into here.

"""

Tech luminaries certainly overlap in their interests. Elon Musk, who wants to colonise Mars, has expressed sympathy for longtermist thinking and owns Neuralink, essentially a transhumanist company. Peter Thiel, the PayPal co-founder, has backed anti-ageing technologies and has bankrolled a rival to Neuralink. Both Musk and Thiel invested in OpenAI, the creator of ChatGPT. Like Thiel, Ray Kurzweil, the messiah of singularitarianism now employed by Google, wants to be cryogenically frozen and revived in a scientifically advanced future. Another influential figure is philosopher Nick Bostrom, a longtermist thinker. He directs Oxford university’s Future of Humanity Institute, whose funders include Musk. (Bostrom recently apologised for a historical racist email.) The institute works closely with the Centre for Effective Altruism, an Oxford-based charity. Some effective altruists have identified careers in AI safety as a smart gambit. There is, after all, no more effective way of doing good than saving our species from a robopocalypse.""" Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:28, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Maybe this is an excerpt from a longer post, but this does not say that these people identify with a thing called "TESCREAL", rather it is a list of seemingly unrelated factoids. jp×g🗯️ 03:07, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Read the article if you want.

"People who are very rich or very clever, or both, sometimes believe weird things. Some of these beliefs are captured in the acronym Tescreal."

...

"Repeated talk of a possible techno-apocalypse not only sets up these tech glitterati as guardians of humanity, it also implies an inevitability in the path we are taking." Bluethricecreamman (talk) 04:48, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

This article quotes Gebru and Torres as having called these people "Tescreal". At no point does FT claim that they are "Tescreal", or even that this is a commonly-used term (the closest it gets is to say "The label, coined by a former Google ethicist and a philosopher, is beginning to circulate online"). The part you've quoted is vague innuendo.

"Newspaper X said that person Y said claim Z" is not the same thing as "newspaper X said claim Z" -- it's not even close.

For a comparison, see the UFO stuff: there are plenty of reputable newspapers saying that David Grusch claimed he had proof of UFOs, but there are not reputable newspapers saying that there's proof of UFOs. jp×g🗯️ 00:00, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Including a list of specific people on an article about a pejorative political term seems to me like a quite obvious BLP violation -- would we have a list of pundits at feminazi, christofascist, SJW, et cetera, cited only to other pundits, who hate them? jp×g🗯️ 02:56, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

We have Big Tech, a "perjorative term" for big tech companies.

There are some "perjorative" terms that occur on wikipedia that have allegations that public figures are them. They fall into the pattern you suggest "doesn't happen" on here. Many of these terms are far more perjorative than TESCREALists.

Democrat in Name Only is a similarly "perjorative term" that alleged Joe Lieberman and Ben Nelson as DINOs in the 200s.

Republican_in_Name_Only alleges Brian Kemp and others.

Cuckservative is thrown at Jeb Bush and John Mccain

If we keep it in Wikivoice, and they are WP:PUBLICFIGURE, and there are multiple opinions alleging them as such, we should include it with the appropriate WP:WIKIVOICE Bluethricecreamman (talk) 04:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd also argue that "feminazi", etc. are internet jargon slurs used to demean. TESCREAL is originated by well published scientists and philosophers, i.e. Timnit Gebru, and Emile P Torres. Its roots are clearly scholarly and scholarly criticism of philosophies is generally not a perjorative political term right now.

If you find a reliable source arguing otherwise (I've seen the rando medium post arguing TESCREAL is a conspiracy, its WP:SPS), then we should consider WP:BLP. It has no current perjorative connotation as it has not entered mainstream discourse, though it is useful enough of an organizing idea that multiple folks are now using it to describe current veins of thought regarding some AI leaders/philosophers. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:51, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

In general, it is clearly not the case that everything that comes out of the mouth of a credentialed scholar is a neutral, scientific claim based on pure apolitical reason. For example, Jordan Peterson and Slavoj Zizek are both very prestigious psychologists and university professors, who both hold all sorts of esteemed doctorates and professorships. However, obviously, neither of them are speaking as neutral scholars in magazine interviews about who's ruining society these days.

I assume you mean this Medium article written by James Hughes, who is a sociologist and a research fellow at UMass Boston’s Center for Applied Ethics. I am not a huge fan of the academic micturation contest framing in the first place, but I don't think there is really a credible basis to say that Emile Torres is a "well-published philosopher" and this guy is a "rando". jp×g🗯️ 00:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Emile P Torres and Timnit Gebru are not in the slight neutral, nor is James Hughes. And I'd argue that science often is not neutral and is often necessarily political. (see Climate Change or the "Do artifacts have politics?" paper)

Apologies for suggesting that James Hughes is a nobody, I mean to say that he needs to publish in a source that can stand up. The article had previously been deleted for lack of WP:RELIABLE sources, and I took great pains to try to include all the reliable sources I could. I think including criticism of the term, especially while its new and highly fluid in every source I find, could improve the article more.

I think this topic is highly political, and like any highly political topic, there are folks who use the most hyperbolic comments on both sides, whether characterizing everyone who is associated with even a single one of the movements as part of a larger eugenics conspiracy (bit of a stretch) or that TESCREAL is a slur invented by the left (also bit of a stretch).

Currently, my opinion is its just an academic term for a phenomena of weird ideologies in Silicon Valley.

We should use WP:OPINION on highly political topics. (I note that the Transhumanism article uses this significantly, as do many contemporary philosophy articles on Misplaced Pages). We should not consider deleting large portions of information stated in WP:OPINION just because we consider the politics to be particularly obnoxious (even possibly to ourselves as editors) or to the WP:PUBLICFIGURE that the politics criticizes.

The plethora of opinion pieces, commentaries, scientific articles, and (Some) straight news pieces suggest that this political term has some notability. And that many of these sources suggest and argue that Elon Musk and others are examples suggests we should include them in a list of alleged "Tescrealists", as long as we use WP:OPINION. Alleging that Elon Musk and others participate in weird ideologies that happens to be described by some as TESCREAL is not something that should be contentious to point out either. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 15:38, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Singer Konshens first picture is a different person

First picture on wiki site Konshens is not actually konshens, but someone else. 2A02:2454:E60:5700:3149:3B55:1E22:93DA (talk) 13:22, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

• I found this recent image of him . Bear in mind that many of the images of him on a Google search are 10-15 years old, promotional, or both. Black Kite (talk) 13:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I removed the image from the article ( Courtesy link: Konshens) because it was of a completely different artist named Tarik Davis that went by the name "Konshens the MC". Feel free to replace it with an appropriate image. Reconrabbit 13:39, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

In vitro fertilisation

In vitro fertilisation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

In this edit a previously uncited but vague mention of unprofessional conduct by unnamed doctors has become a direct accusation against a named person. It remains uncited. The editor who added the new sentence, who appears to have a conflict of interest, says they will edit war to keep the paragraph in place. Extra eyes would be useful. 81.187.192.168 (talk) 19:22, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I have removed the paragraph consisting of BLP violations. While the information added is likely true, the burden is on the editor adding the information to provide a citation. The behavior of SuperinfoTU on their talk page is not encouraging. It suggests that they see no issues in their policy violations thus far and expect to continue violating myriad policies. An admin should consider a NOTHERE block. Toadspike 14:22, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

As I've explained before I respect the policy. You are bored going back and forth. SuperinfoTU (talk) 03:28, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Ken Hovind

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Many of the “facts” in this page are inflammatory and overly biased. It makes accusations with zero evidence to back them up. It’s obvious to me that the person or persons who wrote this are seeking to use ad hominem attacks and straw-man arguments to summarily dismiss Ken Hovind’s views which are held by many credentialed scientists with PHD’s from state universities. It’s a lazy, shallow attempt to attack the historical position of Christians without actually producing any evidence to support their claims. I don’t personally know Mr.Hovind or even agree with many of his views. This is nothing more than a hit-piece by someone with obvious bias. Is this the standard that Misplaced Pages aspires to? 69.77.210.17 (talk) 19:27, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Not that this is a particularly serious request that editors on this board need to respond to, but it's Kent Hovind. Alyo (chat·edits) 21:34, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

A WP-article about a person is supposed to be a summary about independent WP:RS about that person. If that is what the article is, then that is what Misplaced Pages aspires to. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:57, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Revert off obvious flamebait. Do not reply to it. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v 23:37, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Jason Zadrozny

Could someone double check and see if Jason Zadrozny#Personal life paragraphs one and three need to be there. This edit at Ashfield Independents is also relevant. CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 06:04, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I think the child sex allegations would be appropriate to include if there is enduring coverage in multiple sources. Do news reports about the article subject still mention this, or was all the coverage from the year of the court proceedings? As for the fraud and election-related charges, those seem particularly relevant to a politician's biography since they relate directly to the reason he is notable. In general, I think privacy concerns have less weight for politicians than for other public figures and we should be more willing to include accusations in their biographies, although they still need to be noteworthy and reliably sourced. – notwally (talk) 21:25, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Graham E. Fuller

I'm afraid I don't know much about BLP policies. Someone ought to look at this recent IP removal ( and the previous edit). The rationale is "Right to be forgotten, EU privacy" which I doubt has any standing over WP; to me the removal seems like an involved party removing cited information. But then again, I don't know the nuances of BLP, so if someone else could take a look, that would be appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aza24 (talk • contribs)

I don't know that Misplaced Pages respects the EU right to be forgotten (and none of the individuals involved appear to be EU citizens anyway!) but "subject's non-notable daughter was married until 1999 to someone who was the uncle of someone else who wasn't notable at the time but now is" seems like a pretty tenuous link and I doubt it's worthy of inclusion in the article. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 08:21, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Controversial content on BLPs should have multiple high quality sources citing it. I agree the link seems pretty tenuous. – notwally (talk) 21:17, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Lea DeLaria

More eyes would be appreciated at Lea DeLaria. She recently posted controversial comments on social media. We're getting BLP vio at the article and simultaneously trying to figure out the best way to cover the comments in this discussion. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:12, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Seems like a rush to include a statement only covered in a single reliable source from what I could find. My general opinion is that controversial statements should not be included in biographies unless there is enduring coverage in multiple reliable sources. Misplaced Pages is WP:NOTNEWS, and a lot of notable people say a lot of stupid stuff. I also left a more detailed comment on the talk page. – notwally (talk) 21:14, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Emmanuel Mogenet

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

No one thought it odd at the time that Emmanuel Mogenet was created by Emmanuel Mogenet? Anything to do about it now? MaskedSinger (talk) 06:46, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

After removal of WP:NOTCV info that was not supported by RS, this person's notability is unclear and may need an AfD discussion. I will prod it first. Morbidthoughts (talk) 07:55, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Since it was previously prodded, I sent it to AfD. Morbidthoughts (talk) 08:04, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

@MaskedSinger Thanks for catching this. For next time, this kind of report is better suited to WP:COIN and requires no administrator action. Toadspike 14:26, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Jean-Luc Mélenchon

I'm concerned about the "Controversies" section of this article per WP:CSECTION and WP:BLP. Particularly concerning is the seven paragraph subsection on "Accusations of antisemitism". Note that this is not only a BLP but an active politician (not sure if that is relevant but it seems like it ought to be).

I'd be curious to hear what those more knowledgeable about our BLP policies think about this. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 02:08, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't speak French, but a search of "Jean-Luc Mélenchon" and "conspiracy theories" produces many results from newspapers I do recognize as reliable. The heading does seem to unduly suggest there are "controversies" instead of just criticism, so I'd suggest that should probably be changed. The criticism itself appears due based on my search. Say ocean again (talk) 01:45, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Nina Power

Could someone please look at Nina Power and especially Talk:Nina Power#She is a confirmed nazi now, where editors are seeking to include material about a libel case based solely on primary sources. I suspect that the core factual statements may well be correct, although the tone of the edits is quite lurid, but there's no secondary sourcing for anything beyond the initiation of the case. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 13:16, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I've removed the stuff which were sourced to court documents and self published sources not from Nina Power. Possibly the best solution is just deletion though. From what I see, there are currently zero secondary sources about Nina Power in that article. Instead, it just seems to be sourced to what she has published in various UK papers etc. I haven't done WP:BEFORE so perhaps such sources exist, but definitely the article seems to be highly problematic as it stands. Nil Einne (talk) 14:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree that it's all pretty marginal. See Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Nina Power for some previous discussion. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 15:21, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Not clear what the actual problem is, folks. A look at the history shows that previously, secondary sources were removed (e.g. a pair of reviews of art shows mentioning her). And now, court findings cannot be included even when they bear directly on confirmed facts, or when they act as a secondary source confirming the subject's own words and actions?

This is someone that's been a (generally minor, sector-specific less minor) public figure on a (public) political journey rightwards. The only edits I've seen in response to asking for tightening up the wording and sourcing has been over-broad and wholesale deletion of recent updates that form a part of that public political journey. Chaikney (talk) 15:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I think court findings are WP:PRIMARY. We should probably wait for a secondary source, i.e. news media, to report, unfortunately. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 15:36, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Brief aside: It appears that she is known for her anti-trans advocacy (she has self identified as part of "TERF" island in one article). that's probably why there is a fair bit of interest on both sides now, and why many folks want to keep her article in the past AfD.

I agree, starting an AfD may be best, there isn't enough independent sources about her. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 15:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

hmm, change my mind, I see some sourcing that is significant. Many of her book reviews also include criticisms of her past history. Should be correct to include the book reviews, and include attributed opinions around her politics in her bio. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:00, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not seeing much on her, but plenty on her book. Seems that might be the better subject of an article?

The Nazi bit seems entirely undue from searches. Say ocean again (talk) 01:55, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Karlton Hester

It appears that uncited material was removed from the article but the notice tag remains unchanged. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:647:cd02:32b0:714d:c327:d7d0:c06e (talk • contribs)

The article still needs improving, so the tags are valid IMHO. GiantSnowman 21:00, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

WP:BLPPRIMARY issue on John Leguizamo article

John Leguizamo appeared on a genealogy show called Finding Your Roots in 2022. Within a day of the airing, this edit changed the widely reported birth date, his name at birth, and a few other details related to his family based on the findings of the show. There seems to be several issues with this, as the details are shown for two brief seconds in a visual overview of a family tree and other editors have considered it 'confirmation of his actual birthdate'. Taking one conflicting date as fact when there are multiple RS pointing to a different date seems to be ignoring WP:DOB. This also draws into question if WP:BLPPRIMARY comes into play and how it should be applied with a brief 'blink-and-you-will-miss-it!' showing of primary details. Since the name listed in the show also is not reported elsewhere, it adds further conflict to how to report on that since it is based on a primary source. @TheSandDoctor: since you were the person who originally initiated the WP:DOB RfC regarding conflicting dates of birth, I wanted to request your opinion for cases like this in the future where multiple sources point to one year, and a solitary source points to another.

I have included the references I could find regarding his year of birth, including his About Me bio from his book. I also was unsure of if Copyright.gov is a reliable source since I know we consider the Library Of Congress reliable for years of birth, or have in the past, but I included it as well for the year of birth.

Copyright Office authorship query, "Leguizamo, John, 1964-"

Current biography yearbook (1998), page 368 "Leguizamo, John - July 22, 1964"

MacMillan Profiles Latino Americans (1999), page 197 "John Leguizamo, July 22, 1964"

Santa Ana Orange County Register Sunday Newspaper Archives July 25, 1999 Page 243 "Recalled John Leguizamo, 35"

The Oxford encyclopedia of Latinos and Latinas in the United States (2005), page 539 "Leguizamo was born in Bogata, Colombia, on July 22, 1964"

Latino Wisdom (2006), page 47 "Born in Bogata, Colombia, in 1964, Leguizamo"

Who : a directory of prominent people, 2nd Ed (2007), page 266 "Leguizamo, John (1964-)"

The works of John Leguizamo (2008), page 3 "Was born in Bogata, Colombia, in 1964" (About the author page from his book)

Time Almanac 2009, page 56 "Leguizamo ( 22 Jul 1964)"

Encyclopedia Britannica Almanac 2010, page 56 "John Leguizamo, 22 July, 1964"

CNN, Oct 3, 2014 "50 people turning 50 in 2014 — John Leguizamo had a milestone birthday on July 22 as he celebrated turning 50."

InterviewMagazine, May 31, 2016 "Now, at age 51, Leguizamo"

Vogue, Apr 6, 2017 "The 52-year-old actor was born in Colombia,"

GQ, Feb 28, 2018 "Yeah, something's definitely different about John Leguizamo. He thinks it might come down to his age—he's 53 now, over half a century"

NBC News, Apr 13, 2023 "Leguizamo, 62, has enjoyed"

Awshort (talk) 10:28, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

This should be reverted to the date in the majority of sources you've supplied and make a note about the discrepancy. Say ocean again (talk) 02:14, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

@Awshort: Thanks for the ping. I would agree with @Say ocean again: in saying that we should probably include it as a footnote but list the predominantly reported one. The case that spawned the DOB RfC was a bit unique in that literally no reliable sources can/could agree for some reason on Taylor Lorenz's age to the level that we have to include a 3 year gap as they all contradict each other...that doesn't happen very often, I would hope. --TheSandDoctor 04:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Aimee Knight

I do a lot of work in AFDLand and right now we have one, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Aimee Knight where there might be BLP concerns. There has been some Twitter canvassing going on and lots of low edit, sporadically editing, accounts participating in the discussion who might not be that familiar with Misplaced Pages policies, like WP:BLP. I'd welcome some evaluation by editors knowledgeable about BLP concerns to state whether there are legitimate BLP issues or if there are not. Thank you. Liz 23:51, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Ella Thomas

Page is currently being targeted with protracted effort to delete relevant and current as well as cited information.

Even citation links to verified information is being removed. Married with child is indisputable based on links that were erased. Average google search of interviews would verify articles and podcasts in actresses on voice.

Seeems to be an attempt to denounce her nationality as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Erifanz (talk • contribs) 04:21, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

courtesy link: Ella Thomas Say ocean again (talk) 05:11, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Have you considered starting a discussion at Talk:Ella Thomas, which is the first place to discuss issues with that article? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:11, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm been trying to figure how to go about starting a discussion which is why I was asking for assistance. Erifanz (talk) 07:07, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

@Erifanz, you seem to be saying that you are Ella Thomas. Is that correct? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:17, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

No... I am her cousin Rusa. I manage the page with her sister. I never had an issue before so am confused why this started and why I'm being blocked when I asked for help. Please advise. Erifanz (talk) 07:06, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

@Erifanz Take the time to read

• WP:COI
• WP:BLP
• WP:OWN and
• Misplaced Pages:An article about yourself isn't necessarily a good thing carefully.

This issue probably started because one or more Wikipedians noticed that the article didn't look like a WP:BLP should (WP has a lot of stuff like that, people only notice what they notice). That often happens when friends and relatives edit WP-articles about people, since they tend to do so from a "This person is AWESOME" perspective, whether they mean to or not. The purpose of a WP-article about Ella Thomas is to be a summary of independent WP:RS about Ella Thomas. Some WP:ABOUTSELF allowed, but still needs citing. Just because something is online doesn't mean it's useful as a source, especially for a WP:BLP. Hope this helps some. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:26, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for being so kind and taking the time to clarify.

I'm still confused because I read through guidelines and there is no subjective context to her page. It's her early life, present life and catalog of work. When I look at similar pages of actresses... I followed the format almost identically. Even other actresses and actors repped at the agency have the same format.

I understand that we don't own the page and appreciate the format correction. I also don't understand why an interview with her and her husband doesn't count as a citation.

Again thank you for your patience with my questions. Erifanz (talk) 07:39, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Are we talking about ? If so, while it's possible that they say "yeah, we are married etc" somewhere in that 70 min podcast, the text on that page doesn't make that clear at all. So for an editor who looks at that cited page, it doesn't seem to say the are married or have a child together. This may be possible to improve with Template:Cite AV media, which has a parameter for time (like when in the podcast do they say this.) Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:58, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

We're also very strict about copyright around here. At least when we notice we should be. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:27, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

There is no copyright infringement... I literally manage her website. Those images are on my computer as press files for her. They are our images. Even the old one and the image you questioned are being used everywhere even by her modeling agency. The shots were done for PR. (I understand why it's a conflict of interest on the other issues of editing but that would cause half of the actors and actresses pages to be blocked.) Can you at least please reinstate the new image. Erifanz (talk) 09:44, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Then you need to prove that on Commons, guidance in the "possible copyright violation" template at . The default assumption on WP and Commons for pics like these is that the copyright holder is the photographer. Note also, that when you upload a pic the way you did, you stated that the picture was free for anyone to use commercially, which is fine if that's what you want. More at Misplaced Pages:A picture of you. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:59, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Not when it's a paid shoot by the actress for PR and website... she retains rights tto the image for publicity. Thank you again for all your answers. I've learned a great deal tonight. Erifanz (talk) 10:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

This is what you need to prove on Commons. Follow the guidance there. User:Erifanz saying this is so is not enough. And again, you uploaded the pic as "under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license." That means free for commercial use. With attribution. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:25, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your help... I think I'm giving up and handing this off to someone else. Erifanz (talk) 17:29, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Steve Darling

Steve Darling has said "During his national campaign, he gained recognition when local Conservative Party campaigners falsely accused him of pretending to be blind for political gain, according to the charity Devon in Sight." The charity has no evidence that this happened. It seems to have been a political stunt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.13.54 (talk) 10:28, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Sheng Thao

There are frequent edits to this article on a living person, a politician with a "divisive" stance and is covered in international news. Many of the edits in my opinion do not provide a balanced narrative and do not introduce a neutral point of view. Asking for help to moderate this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.158.98.6 (talk) 17:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Greetings. The word you quoted does not presently appear in the live version of the article. Also, the article talk page is a live and active forum where you can bring such concerns. This forum is for when talk page discussions fail to produce a consensus. Please present your concerns at the active talk page. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 01:32, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Josef Sorett

Sorett is a dean at Columbia College who has recently been involved in some controversy around text messages for which three other deans were placed on leave. Sorett himself was not placed on leave, nor did he send any of the texts at issue, though he allegedly replied "lmao" to some of them (according to the Washington Free Beacon, but reprinted in higher-quality sources including the New York Times). Can we get some outside opinions on whether this controversy ought to be described on the biographical article about him? Discussion here: Talk:Josef Sorett#Texting controversy. Courtesy ping to Jjazz76. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 19:25, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

ANI thread with some BLP implications

• Ilaria Salis (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Noting that people experienced with BLPs might want to take a look at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#84.206.11.96. I'm not sure what to do so input from others is welcome. Thanks. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 22:36, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

If it wasn't for her election to the European Parliament I'd be nominating the article for deletion per WP:BLP1E. Seems like a bit of an attack piece and needs some copyediting. TarnishedPath 01:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I semi-protected the article for three months. Johnuniq (talk) 01:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

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