Talk:Haditha massacre: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 15:09, 2 August 2024 editFoilnewt (talk \| contribs)113 edits →Possibly unnecessary link: ReplyTag: Reply ← Previous edit		Revision as of 16:33, 3 August 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk \| contribs)Bots, Template editors2,296,311 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:Haditha massacre/Archive 3) (botNext edit →
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	== Requested move 27 April 2016 ==
	<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
	:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ]. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

	The result of the move request was: '''Moved.''' Consensus obviously shows that the word "massacre" is used more than "killings" in this case. ] {{RMnac}} '''<span style="font-family: Papyrus;">] <span style="color: #000;"><small>(] \| ])</small></span></span>''' 12:02, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

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	] → <s>{{no redirect\|Haditha Massacre}}</s> {{no redirect\|Haditha massacre}} – We need to leave personal biases on the side and consider the title of the article based on the ] of Misplaced Pages. A Google Books results indicates that the current title "Haditha killings" has only 413 results in published works (), while the name "Haditha Massacre" is far more common with 726 results in published works (). Albeit slightly, we can also find support for the proposed title in news sources with 352 results () versus the current title's 289 results (). Google Scholar also indicates a majority of sources favor "Haditha Massacre" with 138 results () versus the current title with 101 results (). In total, this demonstrates an overwhelming support for the proposed new title of '''Haditha Massacre'''. Thanks.-- ] ] 21:45, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

	* '''Oppose''' the suggested capitalization, but '''support''' ], which would be OK according to . ] (]) 23:44, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

	::I've seen it spelled both ways; similar to the ], which also has the "massacre" part at times in lowercase. The n-gram does not provide evidence in relation to the capitalization. It does, however, further support the new title with "massacre" included instead of "killings" or (much less used) "incident".--] ] 02:49, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
	:::If it's spelled both ways, we default to lowercase. The n-grams find that that capped version is too rare to include in the stats: . The has a similar problem; we can work on. ] (]) 03:09, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
	::::Thank you for the extra explanation. Yes, I think a move would also benefit the My-Lai article. I'm changing the original move request by striking through the old proposed move title. Have a good day.--] ] 03:15, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' the lower-cased version. The "massacre" title is also better for ] and ] reasons than "killings", which could refer to anyone ever killed there. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 04:10, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' Clearly the most common name, despite the feathers it ruffles. ] (]) 10:35, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' but move to ] and not to ]. "Massacre" is not a proper name. ] \| ] 20:49, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' but to ], search results indicate suggested title is ]. ] (]) 17:28, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
	'''Oppose'''. The word massacre is loaded and non-neutral, and therefore ] requires that the subject be "mainly" referred to by that name, which I don't think is satisfied here. Even the sources quoted above only suggest a 2:1 preponderence of the proposed name vs the current name, and that discounts all sources that don't call it by either of those two names. For example . It's also telling that contributors here want to downcase "massacre". That in particular suggests the massacre form has not* become a proper noun, (as required by POVTITLE), therefore the conditions for a POVTITLE are not met and we should stick with the current more neutral descriptive title.  — ] (]) 06:48, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
	::'''Comment''': The BBC article linked in Amakuru's comment makes it pretty clear as to why the name "Haditha killings" is actually <u>non-neutral</u> (and why WP:POVTITLE cannot be applied). The term "Haditha killings" is non-neutral because it inherently favors the cover-up by the United States military of an event that '''most''' sources (2 to 1, as Amakuru points out) define as a "'''massacre'''" and others, as Amakuru also shows, a "'''tragedy'''" or "'''atrocity'''". Here is a ''New York Times'' article for more information (). To recap, there is unfortunately no name available to describe this event in a neutral manner: "killings" favors the <u>US military</u> perspective and "massacre" favors pretty much the rest of the world's view. I'd rather favor the rest of the world on this one.--] ] 16:15, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
	::*But... that is kind of the point. Misplaced Pages favors avoiding certain provocative terms ''even when merited'' to err on the side of safety - and yes, this is non-neutral in favor of the "accused" so to speak. It's most obvious with, say, accused but non-convicted criminals; the article ] was originally at ] even when it was 100% obvious that Castro did it. Even if the term "massacre" is wholly merited here, and let's face it, it probably is, do you trust Misplaced Pages to "get it right" 100% of the time? The whole point of the policy is to play it safe, which means not using such terms except in truly exceptional circumstances. ] (]) 23:53, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
	::::By this point, in 2016 (well over a decade since the event), calling the occurrence at Haditha a "massacre" is hardly provocative. If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck...and most sources call it a duck...then Misplaced Pages should call it a duck. Let's also keep in mind that the obvious 2 to 1 preponderance of sources in favor of the term "massacre" instead of "killings" is not a matter to be so easily minimized.--] ] 00:22, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
	* '''Oppose''', although somewhat weakly. "Massacre" does seem something of the ], but per above reply to MarshalN20, Misplaced Pages should still avoid using "massacre" without a crazy huge preponderance of the sources agreeing, at least IMO. ] (]) 23:53, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
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	Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 07:41, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

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Possibly unnecessary link

Should the word "anonymous" in "The investigation found evidence that "supports accusations that U.S. Marines deliberately shot civilians", according to an anonymous Pentagon official," be linked? I think the readers know what anonymous means, we don't want to clutter the page with links.

Woozybydefault (talk) 16:57, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I assume the author was trying to make sure it was understood that this was the journalistic version of "anonymous", but I agree that it is probably unnecessary to wiki-link it here. People most likely understand what is meant. Foilnewt (talk) 15:09, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Claim of suicide without citation

The lines "In 2011, Sharratt's lawsuit was dismissed by the 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals. Sharratt killed himself at his home in Pennsylvania on August 3, 2022. He was 37." include 3 citations:

- https://web.archive.org/web/20150923210837/http://www.courthousenews.com/2011/07/19/38286.htm a record of the court dismissal mentioned in the first sentence above

- https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10110591811606638&set=a.10101634311289078 a Facebook obituary post from Sharratt's sister that can be argued has a vague implication of suicide

- https://www.greenleefuneralhome.com/obituary/justin-sharratt the official obituary posted by the funeral home (which can also be found in the local paper https://www.observer-reporter.com/obituaries/2022/aug/10/justin-louis-sharratt/)

Based on the FB post, one could make the case it is reasonable to assume Sharratt took his own life, but is that enough to justify the definitive statement "killed himself" used in the quoted line above? I mostly ask as a clarification of Misplaced Pages's standards on details like specifying the manner of death of a real person. Foilnewt (talk) 15:07, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

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