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Whats the source of this claim? Or is this another Persian propaganda? ] (]) 18:17, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
Whats the source of this claim? Or is this another Persian propaganda? ] (]) 18:17, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
:Kindly read ]. What exactly is "another Persian propaganda"?
:Persian was a very important language at the Ottoman court, including as a spoken language. There is no debate about this, and finding additional references to support it was very easy:
:* "'''''<u>Persian was commonly spoken at the Ottoman court,</u>''' illustrating the influence of Persian culture on the empire's elite"'' -- Hathaway, J. (2012) The Arab Lands under Ottoman Rule, 1516-1800. Harlow: Pearson Education. p. 64
:* "'''''<u>The spoken use of Persian at the Ottoman court reflected its prestige and the cultural ties between the Ottomans and the Persianate world</u>'''."'' -- Quataert, D. (2005) The Ottoman Empire, 1700-1922. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 88
:* "'''''<U>Persian was spoken fluently at the Ottoman court, where it was the language of choice for literary and intellectual discourse.</u>'''"'' -- Yıldız, S. (2004) Ottoman Language and Literature. Istanbul: Bilgi University Press. p. 33
:* "''The language of the Ottoman court and administration was Turkish, '''<u>but the cultural language was Persian, in which the Ottoman sultans and their ministers were often highly proficient</u>'''."'' -- Lewis, Bernard (1961). The Emergence of Modern Turkey. Oxford University Press. p. 59.
:* "'''''<U>Persian was not only a significant language of poetry and literature at the Ottoman court but also played a crucial role in diplomacy and administration during the early centuries of the Empire</u>.'''"'' -- Faroqhi, Suraiya; Fleet, Kate, eds. (2012). The Cambridge History of Turkey: Volume 2, The Ottoman Empire as a World Power, 1453-1603. Cambridge University Press. p. 337.
:* "''Persian was used for certain kinds of chancery documents <u>'''and was the language of high culture, including poetry and literature, at the Ottoman court'''</u>."'' -- Imber, Colin (2002). The Ottoman Empire, 1300-1650: The Structure of Power. Palgrave Macmillan. p. 208.
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Potentially inaccurate information about Iranian tribes
Different tribes are named as Iranian tribes with no references. Please either cite a prominent resource or remove that part.
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 September 2023
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Change "Modern Iranian peoples include the Baloch, the Gilaks, the Kurds, the Lurs, the Mazanderanis, the Ossetians, the Pamiris, the Pashtuns, the Persians, the Tats, the Tajiks, the Talysh, the Wakhis, the Yaghnobis, and the Zazas" to include Hazaras. Change it to say "Modern Iranian peoples include the Baloch, the Gilaks, the Kurds, the Lurs, the Mazanderanis, the Ossetians, the Pamiris, the Pashtuns, the Persians, the Tats, the Tajiks, the Hazaras, the Talysh, the Wakhis, the Yaghnobis, and the Zazas." Hazaras are an iranic people, we speak an Iranic language (Farsi/Dari), same as the Tajiks of Afghanistan. We are descendants of Tajiks who mixed with Changis Khan and his Mongol army. Don't exclude us from Iranic people please, we are Iranic. You can place the word "Hazaras" anywhere on the list of Iranic peoples, I just put it next to Tajik because they are our ancestors/brothers. 26378J (talk) 19:49, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
It was no more unsourced than the other entries in the list, which for some reason you didn't remove. Anyway, I've now added links to two sources (which were already cited in the article). JBW (talk) 09:00, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
@JBW: I have no access to the other source (number 14), but the Iranica entry does not support what you added to the lede, namely, the Hazaras being an Iranian people (it only says that they speak Persian). As a response to your edit summary, please correct if i'm missing something, but while a content from the lead generally does not require sourcing, it must be sourced and dealt with in the body of the article, which is not the case here, as i said just above, at least with Iranica. The other groups are well-known Iranian peoples, why should i remove them from the lead ?---Wikaviani 22:53, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
I have got far better things to do than enter into arguments about whether there is some "true" meaning of belonging to an ethnic group, beyond language, country of residence, self-identificatuon, etc, so I have reverted my edit. You may do what you will. JBW (talk) 08:10, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
Thanks, i did not mean to try your patience or something, just came here to clarify my revert. Best.---Wikaviani 20:56, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
How are the other groups "well-known Iranian people" but not Hazaras? I know my own people. We share many features with Afghan Tajiks, many of use are even indistinguishable (w/o Mongol features). I, and others in my family, have done DNA tests and confirmed that we are mix of native Tajiks and Mongols. If you've been to Afghanistan you'd understand- this is the Hazara ethnic group. Yes, speaking Persian isn't proof that we're not just Mongol immigrants, but how is our own physical ethnic features not enough? Yes, we have Mongol ancestry, but it is partial ancestry of ancestors who mixed with the natives. I don't see how the proof is on me, a mixed race man, that we don't somehow not have a relation to the country we are from and live in. How do you assume it works that we're not Iranic? With no proof- we are just Persian-speaking unrelateds? We would be "well-known" if it weren't for being erased visibly like this. Also, if you check Hazara wiki page you will find sources regarding our Iranic heritage. Sorry, I'm knew to wikipedia and don't know how to cite. I know me and my people, though. 26378J (talk) 22:42, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Revising the section on the history of Western vs. Eastern Iranian peoples
I would suggest revising the sections on the history of Eastern and Western Iranian peoples. Firstly, the division into Eastern and Western is a linguistic one and not necessarily the best way to distinguish between different cultural groups. In fact, the section on Eastern Iranian peoples includes only Steppe-Iranian peoples who spoke languages that are categorised as Eastern but lived north or even west of the Western Iranians and are culturally very different from the Iranian peoples in the eastern part of the Iranian plateau. Moreover, Avestan is not an eastern Iranian language, but is so old that it preceded the division is west vs. east. Secondly, it is the people who lived in the eastern parts of Greater Iran who gave their name to this somewhat confusing category, but they are absent from this part of the article. Thirdly, I would suggest adding a section on the Avestan people who actually lived in the eastern part of Greater Iran and are not yet covered in this article. Kjansen86 (talk)
Modern Iranian people portion of introduction
So a while back I had this back and forth with user Aintabli.
This article, the article for Iranian Azerbaijanis has clear census on the simple fact that Azerbaijanis (at least the ones in Iran) are Iranian people based on common culture, common history, common nationality, and even more importantly for this discussion common genetics.
This article literally refers to Iranian Azerbaijanis at later parts and groups them in the CIC as they should be by all genetics evidence.
When I simply added Azeris to the list of modern Iranian people the said user repeatedly edited my addition despite me pointing out in edit notes that I am just adding something that should already be there.
I would like to have this issue solved.
Is there any actual source that is some how refuting the existing reputable sources in this article that we are all missing?
Because otherwise my very minimalist and simple addition should be reinstated Kane 1371 (talk) 02:18, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
Brazilians speak Portuguese and many African people speak french and native Americans speak English. Also we have Iranian people listed right in this article that no longer speak Iranian languages in their majority like Ossetians, or the portion of Iranian people that settled in eastern europe. Kane 1371 (talk) 02:23, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
an even more fun example, are French people Italian? after all they speak a latin language, so they can not be germanic people as we know Franks were.
They must be Italian.
The logic of defining people's ethnicity and descent based on language is extremely flawed and disregards how dynamic language is.
Are the Scotts English?
Are the Normans of England not Scandinavian descent because they speak english? Were the persian speaking Ottoman kings that even wrote poems in persian Iranian then?
It is simple, genealogy does not care about your language when it studies your genes, and anthropology does not look at your language and go "Ah that decides it, these people in south africa speaking english are brits" Kane 1371 (talk) 03:03, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
Persian was spoken in court in the Ottoman Empire?
Kindly read WP:AGF. What exactly is "another Persian propaganda"?
Persian was a very important language at the Ottoman court, including as a spoken language. There is no debate about this, and finding additional references to support it was very easy:
"Persian was commonly spoken at the Ottoman court, illustrating the influence of Persian culture on the empire's elite" -- Hathaway, J. (2012) The Arab Lands under Ottoman Rule, 1516-1800. Harlow: Pearson Education. p. 64
"The spoken use of Persian at the Ottoman court reflected its prestige and the cultural ties between the Ottomans and the Persianate world." -- Quataert, D. (2005) The Ottoman Empire, 1700-1922. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 88
"Persian was spoken fluently at the Ottoman court, where it was the language of choice for literary and intellectual discourse." -- Yıldız, S. (2004) Ottoman Language and Literature. Istanbul: Bilgi University Press. p. 33
"The language of the Ottoman court and administration was Turkish, but the cultural language was Persian, in which the Ottoman sultans and their ministers were often highly proficient." -- Lewis, Bernard (1961). The Emergence of Modern Turkey. Oxford University Press. p. 59.
"Persian was not only a significant language of poetry and literature at the Ottoman court but also played a crucial role in diplomacy and administration during the early centuries of the Empire." -- Faroqhi, Suraiya; Fleet, Kate, eds. (2012). The Cambridge History of Turkey: Volume 2, The Ottoman Empire as a World Power, 1453-1603. Cambridge University Press. p. 337.
"Persian was used for certain kinds of chancery documents and was the language of high culture, including poetry and literature, at the Ottoman court." -- Imber, Colin (2002). The Ottoman Empire, 1300-1650: The Structure of Power. Palgrave Macmillan. p. 208.
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Done JBW (talk) 21:09, 4 September 2023 (UTC)