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Vistaril

When a drug has secondary effects like acting as an antihistamine but is also psychoactive doctors tend to prescribe it in cases where the patient can't take regular antihistamines. Otherwise a doctor could prescribe cannabis as an anti-emetic, when there are much better options for just treating vomiting than cannabis. (I understand in cancer patients cannabis is used to stop vomiting AND increase appetite, I'm talking about prescribing cannabis for someone who could just as easily be treated with a dose of over the counter Emetrol.) Anynobody 05:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong but psychoactive drugs are part of what Scientology hates most about psychiatrists, because they see them as poison. The text was changed to make it seem as though Hubbard was taking it as an antihistamine. Does this mean that if Prozac also had antihistamine properties it would be acceptable for a Scientologist to take? Anynobody 01:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Your definition of "psychoactive" drugs is too narrow. Caffeine and alcohol - "the most widely used depressant in the world" - are psychoactive, nicotine is as well and so are valerian, bugleweed, catnip, chamomile, feverfew, hops, mullein, peppermint, skullcap .... And yes, it is totally fine for Scientologists to take those "drugs". If there is a medical, life-prolonging reason it is also OK to take sleeping aids, painkillers or an antihistamine with a psychoactive (e.g. calming) effect. Prozac is not an example as it has no such properties as it has harmful and known longterm effects. COFS 01:50, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

So then, if Prozac could be used to treat headaches in people allergic to regular pain relievers Scientology would find that acceptable as a short term solution? Prozac as treatment for headaches Anynobody 02:21, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

(I'm not arguing the Vistaril issue anymore, but am just curious about how Scientology applies it's beliefs) Anynobody 06:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

You don't know Scientology beliefs, obviously, otherwise you would not assume or extrapolate that way. The whole story is that you cannot get auditing if you are on drugs, no matter what type of drugs, including over-the-counter painkillers/sleep aids like Tylenol or Ibuprofen, because the person being audited must be alert, well fed and must have gotten enough sleep before being admitted to auditing. And you are not alert if you have taken painkillers or tranquilizers (such as Vistaril). Simple rule. COFS 17:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know all of Scientology, as I said. If I understand you correctly, drugs and painkillers are ok as long as the Scientologist isn't going in for auditing that day? Anynobody 21:33, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Not all type of drugs (especially not illegal ones...) certainly, but psychoactive medication in general. As long as the drug is "active" in the body, auditing is not permitted. There is no hard rule on that, dependent on the drug I have been waiting from 24hrs to a whole week. There are lots of guidelines and the background to them in the "Tech Volumes" of Scientology (Vol. I, p.140 for example has a whole tape transcript about why a PC needs to be "dry" of any drugs). But there is also a quote from LRH saying "It is not fatal to audit over drugs. It is just difficult, the results may not be lasting and need to be verified afterwards." (from a bulletin called "Drugs, Aspirin and Tranquilizers"). COFS 23:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Are drug tests ever given to make sure? (Like for someone with a history of problems with drugs, or if the audit/drug combo could be harmful?) Anynobody 01:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Military Career

There were several inaccuracies in the description of Hubbard's Cape Lookout "battle". For example, when citing the presence of a magnetic deposit in the area he was not saying that the PC-815 was tracking it. The PC-815 had SONAR which does not record magnetic anomalies, the blimps were the ones using magnetic anomaly detectors. Along with these changes I have provided references in the form of Hubbard's battle report, Fletcher's summary, and an ASW-1 form showing what Fletcher wanted from Hubbard instead of his 18 page report. The report is the successful destruction of a Nazi uboat. Anynobody 06:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The Navy didn't try to promote Hubbard

During peacetime, the military does not "offer" promotion. In 1947 there was no war going on, and candidates for promotion had to go through a testing process. Anynobody 00:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Chris Owen mentions that the actual promotion was running through the system since October 3, 1945, here under Afterlife, but doesn't mention the document that shows this. At any rate, Hubbard certainly didn't "refuse" the promotion because (assuming this can be sourced), it was never delivered and signed for. AndroidCat 02:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Oops, sorry about that. You're right he didn't refuse it, but the Navy didn't offer it either. The only times rank is "offered" is when a the military is trying to recruit personnel with important skills (usually in, war) for example a doctor or perhaps an intelligence offer with special language abilities. Or when a soldier is spot promoted by a flag officer (General or Admiral), but it may not be an offer so much as an order.

Seriously, promotions don't just get forgotten especially in the case of an officer such as a prospective Lieutenant Commander. Anynobody 02:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Reversion

I reverted this section from the version here to this version. The reasons why in a nutshell are that first of all, it's too much detail being spent in one area. Second, the referencing is questionable -- I thought I had found an orphaned reference, a reference which depended on the reference being defined in a previous usage, a previous usage that had been removed, but it turns out that no, that reference wasn't ever defined. Third, some of the material is dubious in terms of asking the reader to draw inferences (such as referencing a correctly-filled ASW-1 form in order to support the contention that Hubbard's was filled out incorrectly.)

Needless to say, I also oppose the recent efforts(, ) to provide an "appropriate intro" to this section -- "appropriate intro" being I guess some kind of code phrase for "cherry-picked statements placed together to form a supposed 'summary' absolutely unrepresentative of the whole." -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:41, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, this is just flim-flam designed to make LRH's sad little "military career" sound more noble, although the line ""There is no record of any court-martial or other disciplinary action during former Lieutenant Hubbard's military service." is hardly a ringing endorsement! Very defensive. MarkThomas 16:45, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah, cherries, how many of those have I seen picked by others - I am surprised there are any left for me (smile). There is a better intro there now. The point, as I covered with Anynobody here, is that Hubbard joined, served, was honorable discharged. That is the overview of his military service and that should form the intro. Add to that there are black marks on his record (but not black enough for formal disciplinary action so what does that say); black marks that have been played and overplayed by critics. A mention perhaps of accusations of misrepresenting his naval career (unless already overplayed in the article) and there you have an intro. --Justanother 16:51, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention the "several" campaign medals, which number exactly four. Well, let's see, there's the "American Defense Service Medal", which will be "will be awarded to all persons in the naval service who served on active duty at any time between 8 September 1939 and 7 December 1941, both dates inclusive." There's the "American Campaign Medal", which could be awarded "for service within the American Theater between 7 December 1941 and 2 March 1946 " for being "Permanently assigned as a member of a crew of a vessel sailing ocean waters for a period of 30 days or 60 nonconsecutive days." The "Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal", for which "members serving in the geographical area between Dec. 7, 1941, and March 2, 1946 (dates inclusive) are authorized award of the medal." And finally the "World War II Victory Medal", which "may be awarded to all members of the Armed Forces of the United States or of the Government of the Philippine Islands who served on active duty in World War II at any time between 7 December 1941 and 31 December 1946, both dates inclusive." Why yes, these "several" campaign medals, which only show that someone served in a particular theatre of operations in a particular time period, tell us so much about Hubbard the military man. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:09, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

As I said, the most relevant overview of his military career is as I had it in the last intro be Mark reverted again. He served, he was honorable discharged, he had some black marks, he PR'ed his service, critics PR'ed his black marks. What you would have is: He signed up, he was really really bad, he PR'ed his service. "Your" version is POV, mine is not. --Justanother 17:19, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, what I would have for this specific section is no intro at all. It's not long enough to merit its own summarizing intro and I haven't seen anything that convinces me it should get that long; I think that we should simply provide the facts and the references, and let the reader draw their own conclusions. By the way, does "falsely claiming to have over 500% as many medals as you actually have" fall under the heading of "PR'ing"? Because I would have classified it as "lying", really. -- Antaeus Feldspar 19:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Please do not read more into my remark than is there. "Your" version is "your" version of the section. The one you defend. That makes it "yours". One-sided. No mention of his honorable discharge; an important component of his "Military career", would you not say? No mention that he never had formal disciplinary action; important also as your version plays up all his peccadillos. PR'ing is a euphemism for the activities of both sides. Call it what you will. --Justanother 19:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

So "PR'ing" is a way to falsely equate "telling the truth about a war record distinguished primarily by its blemishes" and "telling huge lies about medals that were never earned and going so far as to distribute forged documents to support the lie"? What a versatile word that is! "No mention of his honorable discharge; an important component of his "Military career", would you not say?" No, I would not say, because it's what most soldiers get. Same thing with never being court-martialed and never facing formal disciplinary action. Same thing with getting those four campaign medals awarded simply for serving in the right place at the right time. Not everyone who serves in the military, however, wastes materiel and manpower fighting imaginary submarine battles. Not everyone who serves in the military shells allied territories. Not everyone who serves in the military later falsifies the number of their medals by over 500%. -- Antaeus Feldspar 19:56, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

<< Beg to differ, Antaeus. Waste and mistakes are the hallmarks of war. Just not every officer that possibly made a mistake or wasted some time and materiel is hauled over the coals by silly critics for it. Silly critics that care little for what they criticize, including a young officer with exemplary referrals (have you looked at those referrals) that served his country in time of war. That may or may not have chased a sub. That may have made an error in where he chose to practice gunnery at a floating target. BFD. And did he PR himself after? Looks that way, don't it. BFD. OK, if you want to tear into him, have the common decency to mention the simple truths too. "Not everyone" gets your "special treatment" so let's be sure to mention that he got what most soldiers got, too. Unfortunately, if critics have their way, "common" decency is most uncommon indeed. --Justanother 20:09, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, and the pathetically distorted and exaggerated LRH "submarine warfare off Oregon" story is characteristic of the man; some moderate achievements typical of a marginally-above average person and a massive fantasising complex, both self-deceiving and deceptive, fabricating all sorts of wacky stories about self and others. On this unsafe ground was Scientology built. MarkThomas 20:02, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

<< Ever read the Moulton testimony? I suggest you do. Hubbard, his crew, another ship, blimps. All making positive contact; sonar (not magnetic) and magnetic, hearing screws, seeing periscopes, diesel slicks. And what was that disallowed bit about a shore observer? Golly, maybe there was a sub chase. And what do we have to counter all that evidence that the chase actually occurred?? A CYA (Cover Your Ass) from some pissed-off higher-up?? Well, that is enough for us to smear the man and his crew and everyone else involved. Silly critics. --Justanother 21:16, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Please remember that this talk page is for improving the article, Justanother. If you would like to discuss your theory that the testimony of Hubbard's second-in-command doesn't just count as "evidence" but as unquestionable evidence which proves that anyone not convinced by that "evidence" must be "some pissed-off higher-up" trying to "CYA", well then you might want to get yourself a blog. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:26, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Please to not edit-war. Instead help me make an appropriate intro, if you care to. I think I have addressed your concerns. --Justanother 16:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, MarkThomas! Sorry, I am slow this morning - you are the POV-pusher with the trollish bits over at Xenu. Your edit-warring is unwelcome and will not stand. --Justanother 17:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

As in Talk:Xenu#Civil airliner in space and your edits to the article. --Justanother 17:05, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Antaeus Feldspar I can understand if perhaps the section on his Navy career was too long, however I would have preferred you merely trim it down rather than replace it with what was there before as it includes inaccurate information. For example: US Navy concluded Hubbard's vessel had in fact been attacking a "known magnetic deposit" on the seabed. Hubbard had no way to detect a magnetic deposit, his ship used SONAR to find submarines. Sonar depends on sound. The blimps that responded, were the units that detected a magnetic contact.

The entire addition I made was sourced, including Hubbard's own report. Again, I don't mind the section being trimmed down but do not agree with it's removal as it was sourced better than the current version.

As a compromise I'll put the section back as I finished it, then why don't you or another editor trim it down to the appropriate length? Anynobody 22:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Are you an expert in sonar and submarine warfare Anynobody? Is it your argument that you know more at this historical remove than the naval experts at the time who examined Hubbard's claims? MarkThomas 22:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

MarkThomas the people who wrote the description of Hubbard's battle with a magnetic deposit were not naval experts. I know quite a bit about the subject of ASW, but it's not my knowledge I'm using as references. I've tried to make it as accessible to a layperson as possible, by linking to articles on the difference between a Magnetic Anomaly Detector and SONAR.

The magnetic deposit story was written by people looking to trash Hubbard at any cost and misinterpreted Admiral Fletcher's comments. How could he possibly be attacking a magnetic deposit he couldn't detect? Anynobody 22:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem, as I explained earlier, is not merely that the section was too long, it was that the referencing was very iffy (I see that you went right back and readded the reference "<ref name="logbook" />" despite no reference named "logbook" ever being defined) and the material appearing to border on original research (the aforementioned inclusion of an unrelated ASW-1; the statement "This also implied that Lt. Hubbard and his crew were operating the ship's SONAR equipment incorrectly"). I am disappointed that rather than examine the material with an eye towards fixing these problems which were pointed out, you simply reinserted it exactly the same as it had been before with the exception of one link. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:12, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I understand your point about a statement like "This also implied that Lt. Hubbard and his crew were operating the ship's SONAR equipment incorrectly", which is why I say to par it down. The "<ref name="logbook" />" must have come in from USS PC-815 as it wasn't one of mine. Was it there before? I take that back, that was my error. I hadn't inetended to copy that ref too.

• The article implies that Fletcher was saying Hubbard incompetently did battle with a magnetic deposit, I included the letter as a reference of what he actually said.

In that letter Fletcher points out that Hubbard didn't submit a proper report, the ASW-1 form is what he referenced and that is the form I've included for a reader to see for themselves.

I've also included Hubbard's report in case they (readers) want to see what was submitted.

Towards proving that Fletcher WAS NOT saying Hubbard thought he was fighting a magnetic deposit I included a link to an ibiblio page explaining MAD vs SONAR as well as Hubbard's words explaining that THE BLIMPS were tracking a magnetic submarine contact.

By including the actual sources like Fletcher's letter, the ASW-1, and Hubbard's report the reader can form their own opinions.

If that is WP:OR, please explain how interpreting Admiral Fletcher's comments to mean Hubbard did battle with a magnetic deposit with the previous references ISN'T WP:OR too? Anynobody 03:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC) I take that back, it's not WP:OR because someone else made that assertion. However WP:OR isn't what it used to be either. These primary sources all meet WP:ATT guideline which states:

Edits that rely on primary sources should only make descriptive claims that can be checked by anyone without specialist knowledge.

Primary sources are documents or people close to the situation you are writing about. An eyewitness account of a traffic accident, and the White House's summary of a president's speech are primary sources. Primary source material that has been published by a reliable source may be used for the purposes of attribution in Misplaced Pages, but only with care, because it's easy to misuse primary sources. The Bible cannot be used as a source for the claim that Jesus advocated eye removal (Matthew 18:9, Mark 9:47) for his followers, because theologians differ as to how these passages should be interpreted. Edits that rely on primary sources should only make descriptive claims that can be checked by anyone without specialist knowledge.

However since these primary source documents can be read with a couple of definitions of terms, I think they are appropriate. The information necessary to understand is not specialist knowledge, but it isn't mainstream either. Specialist knowledge would be expecting a reader to understand detailed, complicated information beyond the definition of some terms and acronyms. For example, some of the specific topics Lt. Hubbard might have missed while sleeping can be found in a book here Naval Sonar which mentions topics like:

1. BASIC PRINCIPLES OF UNDERWATER SOUND

2. TRANSMISSION OF SOUND IN SEA WATER 3. SOUND RECEPTION AND DETECTION BY LISTENING 4. ESSENTIALS OF ECHO-RANGING EQUIPMENT 5. GENERAL REQUIREMENTS OF SONAR SYSTEMS 6. SURFACE-SHIP ECHO-RANGING EQUIPMENT 7. SONAR RECEIVERS 8. SONAR TRANSMITTERS

9. STABILIZATION

There are 17 chapters total, and I want to stress that a lay person need not know any of these things to understand that several other ships couldn't hear anything and the blimps were tracking a deposit of metal, perhaps an old wreck, or ore deposit. Or that Hubbard took 18 pages to describe a lot of nothing in an unprofessional and incorrect way (the ASW-1 form). Again one need not understand the data on the form to see that his report includes almost none of it. Anynobody 07:18, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Reply to allegation of flim-flam designed ... "military career" sound more noble,"

MarkThomas I'm NOT trying to make his career seem more noble. As you have pointed out the CoS has been putting out inaccurate information for a long time regarding this, the anti-COS people have made similar but smaller and more innocent mistakes. If you are trying to prove Hubbard was an incompetent officer, the truth really suits your case better. If Hubbard could've detected the "magnetic deposit" it would actually make him look like an inexperienced rather than incompetent captain.

Instead the truth is he mentioned how much "sleep he caught up on" in ASW school, where they would have given him training on SONAR. If he hadn't slept through the class, he might have realized he wasn't detecting an enemy sub. He talks about his experienced and skilled crew in his report, then the following month the crew was too green to return to base without him at the conn (and he was too tired to do it)? Looking at this quote from above "Exactly, and the pathetically distorted and exaggerated LRH "submarine warfare off Oregon" story is characteristic of the man..." the behavior I'm describing and citing backs you up. Anynobody 03:39, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

One last thing on his command of PC-815

Submarine Warfare You don't have to take my word for this. The Japanese didn't operate their submarines the same way as the Nazis operated their uboats, trolling for merchant vessels. I'm not saying there was never an IJN sub off the West Coast, because there was at least one. Those times were very few and far between because the IJN didn't believe in attacking shipping or industrial targets. The Nazis did though, and because of that the Allies had to run shipping in the Atlantic by convoys. The Japanese didn't bother attacking, so in the Pacific our merchants just sailed by themselves. The sub commanders were ordered to attack large warships first, like the USS Wasp (CV-7) or the USS Indianapolis (CA-35). The point being that area was not regularly patrolled by enemy subs, so on the occasions when one was there it was on special orders.

So he was not taking away valuable patrol resources and allowing a sub to slip through a gap caused by the other ships searching for his contact. I'm also not saying he was doing this in bad faith, he really was trying to do his job. That is the one thing his commanders all said about him is that he was genuinely trying to do the right thing as he saw it. This incident is very similar in nature to what happened earlier on the East Coast during his assignment as the prospective C.O. of USS YP-422, and earlier still in Australia. Down under he convinced himself and somebody in an Army unit that he was some kind of liaison for the Navy when no such orders existed. In Boston he was most likely telling the officers in charge of converting the ships how to do their jobs, and was relieved after complaining that said officers weren't listening to him after being ordered not to.

The point is he wasn't stupid, he just had a really high opinion of himself and as such wasn't fit to be in charge of a ship. He could have been valuable as a part of a larger unit though. To those who feel he is being unduly portrayed, would a sentence explaining that he was doing what he thought best serve to counterbalance the POV issues at all? Anynobody 08:40, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Australia and N.I.

Lt. Hubbard wasn't posted to Australia, the ship he was taking to Manila was diverted there. Added a document submitted by the Attaché explaining what happened, why he was returned, and recommendation he not be given independent authority. His less than heroic return cost him a career with the ONI, since he was then assigned to the USS YP-422. Anynobody 01:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

YP-422 and Algol

Added info about the ship and situation which got him relieved, with references. Also added pics of both the YP-422 and the PC-815. Anynobody 06:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Updated article with info about his final ship, and expanded/corrected previous work. Anynobody 00:53, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Hubbard's mistake at the Boston Naval Yard

Misou said in the last edit summary: de-POVed and where is the controversy? he was pissed, complained and got ignored. so what. no war action.)

In the military (all branches, all militaries) subordinates are not supposed to go higher into the chain of command to get the result he/she wants in a dispute with their C.O. Let's assume for a moment that he convinced the Vice Chief he was right, why would the same office approve relieving him of command? Then not respond to his second request? Here is the breakdown of events:

• The Commandant issued an order Hubbard didn't like.
• Hubbard took his concern to the Vice Chief's office.
• The Commandant then asked for and received permission to relieve Hubbard and send him back to personnel.
• Hubbard took his concerns again to the Vice Chief's office.
• Again Vice Chief did nothing, and Hubbard was relieved.

All he had to do was follow the orders of his C.O. Instead he took his concerns about a yard security boat to a man with bigger fish to fry, the Vice Chief.

War is not all about combat, and neither is military service. Part of service is being able to take orders, and obey a chain of command. Hubbard did neither, since he claimed to be a war hero later stuff like this matters. Anynobody 04:20, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Misou said in the last edit summary: maybe, but "mistake" is POV and I don't understand it. can't you ask twice?

"Mistake" is not a POV word, it's a word that describes doing something one should not have which all humans do from time to time. To your specific question :can't you ask twice? He wasn't supposed to ask once, that's the point of having a chain of command. Going to the Vice Chief in the first place was a mistake, going again was a repeat of that mistake.

Please discuss further changes here first. Anynobody 05:00, 18 April 2007

I got it now. I guess some people find that heroic. Maybe you want to rewrite that part so that anyone not a military specialist can understand what you want to say? Misou 05:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

That's a good idea, Misou, I'll put something together ASAP and get back to you. Anynobody 05:48, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Uiii-uiii-uiii, cynicism alert.... Misou 02:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't be afraid to try to explain it yourself, being a layperson maybe you could word it better so that fellow laypeople would understand. Anynobody 05:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Will try. Misou 02:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

It was a good try Misou, but the actual explanation I was talking about (and I thought you were too) is that in the military people are not supposed to go over the heads of their COs. Hubbard did this twice, which was a mistake then a repeated mistake. The first mistake cost him the assignment, the second mistake just showed he hadn't learned anything from the first mistake. Anynobody 03:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, didn't I write that? Protesting where you better shut up? Misou 03:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Nope, this is what was there (emphasis mine):

The situation cost him an opportunity to work as a Naval Intelligence officer, and he was subsequently made prospective Commanding Officer of USS YP-422. A fishing trawler undergoing conversion into a shipyard patrol vessel at the Boston Naval Shipyard, it had been called Mist by its civilian owners. Shortly after arrival a personality dispute there evolved into a situation which Lt. Hubbard did not feel was handled properly by the Commandant of the shipyard. He protested to the Commandant's C.O. the Vice Chief of Naval Operations. Subsequently the Commandant requested Hubbard be relieved of command noting he is: "...not temperamentally fitted for independent command." A further request for the intervention of the Vice Chief's office was ignored as well.These incidents are in contrast with official presentations of the Church of Scientology which often portray Hubbard as a role model soldier during World War II.

This kinda makes it sound appropriate to protest disagreeable orders. Only illegal orders can be ignored/reported, and illegal orders involve stuff like Mi Lai, not refitting a trawler. Anynobody 03:31, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Drug consumption of Ron Hubbard

This section added by 194.57.219.129 has no references in the proper format, uses other Wiki articles as references, reads like someone's personal essay writing and has serious POV problems. "The pathetic end of life of Ron Hubbard, the numerous injection marks on his body and the drugs found in his corpse seem to strengthen the sad picture painted by the testimonies above." While I would welcome a section on Hubbard's drug use, I think that there are too many problems with it right now to let it stay before a massive cleanup. AndroidCat 22:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Sounds pretty similar to the accounts I recall reading in Sunday supplements. I agree there are style problems but the bulk of the text seems pretty accurate to me. MarkThomas 22:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I've parred down some of the more controversial items. Anynobody 08:05, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Perfect. I defluffed it a bit as well. Misou 02:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

As it appears now I'm satisfied with the section. I added <blockquote></blockquote> back into his opium addict quote and the longer account of Hubbard. Anynobody 04:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, verification pending. Do you have the original data (not the digested stuff in the books)? Misou 04:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm actually helping the anon who contacted me, so I don't have the books. However I'm pretty sure Barefaced Messiah, APOBS, and some others are available online. I'll double check that to make sure in the near future. Anynobody 05:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi, for Messiah or Madman (B. Corydon), full text is here online: . However, in this format, page is n°54. I'll try to find the other texts online since I've time... 194.57.219.129 18 April 2007 see chapter 'Scientology at sea' for J. Atack in APOBS 194.57.219.129 18 April 2007

Mein lieber Freund, danke schoen. Why don't you stop hiding and get an ID? Misou 03:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I've got Bare Faced Messiah... Anynobody 07:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

and A Piece of Blue Sky too. Anynobody 07:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I found those books as well. They have been written for specific purposes at the time and were appropriately "smeary". What's much more interesting is to see the original documents the books are based on, to see the context and exact wording. That is what I meant with "Do you have the original data (not the digested stuff in the books)?" To me the Hubbard quotes sound like his usual sloppy jokes rather than some deep confession on being a whatever addict. Misou 03:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Misou, I've completed one reference, other quotes are from the authors themselves or from interviews with the people they quote. Perhaps Miller, Corydon, Armstrong, Downsborough, Atack are complete liars, and Ron Hubbard has an enormous sens of humour (and he really had, sometimes). However, they basically described the same kind of person, and if all of them can lie, their testimonies have to be considered anyway. About my ID, I can't have one because IP I use is not only mine, but the IP of my university so a lot of people can use it, it's not useful to create a special ID... I'm not hiding, no more than you (Misou is not your real name, is it?). Facts and quotes and references are important, not who I am. However, I'm not German, sorry:-) 194.57.219.129 19 April 2007

Hi there! Why don't we get the "maybe"s out of this article (and a lot others). I think there is too much room for interpretation and - by habit - it seems to be one to the negative. May be justified in some cases, may not be in others. In any case, the man is dead, and I am against some posthumous propaganda shit. On your IP, if that one is used by many others you should even more get an ID, so you can log in from where ever you are without confusing anybody. That's what I meant with hiding. (Misou is my nickname not only here, but who care what your ID will be). Anyway, just a hint. Pity that you are not German, I am always looking for possibilities to brush up mine. Misou 17:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Misou, almost everything you pointed out to 194.57.219.129 can be said about the information the CoS puts out about him, just in a much more "cheery" way (the opposite of "smeary"). Watch: They have been written for specific purposes at the time and were appropriately "cheery". What's much more interesting is to see the original documents the books are based on, to see the context and exact wording.That is what I meant with "Do you have the original data (not the digested stuff in the books)?" I'm all for primary sources, but books are necessary here too. They're secondary sources. Anynobody 09:40, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Isn't that a good opportunity to arrange it in the middle? You know, I found just too many slants in those articles, or BS like the part on "the body was dragged away". Nonsense, and if the person putting that in KNOWS that the body was drug checked left, right and center and the result publically available, then this becomes an intentional lie. Misou 17:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I just adjusted your edit. The body was also not checked for moon dust. Is that worth mentioning? Misou 17:32, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't remember putting anything like "the body was dragged away" in the edit I wrote. Moon dust aside, the statement I replaced said something like the test eliminated all possibility of murder. A drug test does not eliminate the possibility of poisoning. I'm not saying he was murdered, but I can't say he wasn't either since the information is just not available, in part thanks to the refusal of an autopsy and speedy cremation. Anynobody 22:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Drugs are usually classified as poisons. But why was the Sheriff-Coroner looking for drugs at all? COFS 23:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Famous picture

The the picture mentioned of a totally exhausted Hubbard is out there, here's a rendering of it: (I have seen this photograph before, don't remember where but I'm pretty sure it can be found.)

. Anynobody 09:31, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Smeary or cheery, Anynobody? Is it representing how Hubbard looked like throughout most of his life? If the photo is not a fake - and I don't know that - he must have looked like this when he wrote Mission Earth. And then you check photos of the time of 1966, 1967 (that's when he got his ships, Sea Org and the cap for it), you see someone who doesn't look like a druggie. Sheds some doubt on the drug stories, for me at least. Misou 17:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Unless there is a source indicating the picture is fake, and assuming I find and post the photo in question, would you be able to tell if it's fake? If so would you then be able to explain why it is or isn't? The statement wasn't discussing his appearance in the 1960s it was talking about his appearance in 1985 at the time of the article's publishing. Anynobody 22:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

You would put this picture with the purpose to degrade the appearance of Hubbard. Why are you choosing such a picture when there are hundreds of less degrading ones? COFS 23:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Handicap

Since I am so outnumbered here, I think I should get a handicap, like in horse racing or golf. I propose that I get 6RR. I mean, that will level the field just a tad. What do you'all think? --Justanother 17:13, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Why doesn't Miscavige just allocate a "hit-team" to WP. That would sort you out. Or is it that you know in advance you wouldn't stand a chance. Scientology has 75,000 sad adherants and WP a few million. Oh dear. MarkThomas 17:19, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Give him a call and ask him. Fact is that it would only take about 10 - 15 Scientologists that knew what they were doing here to totally clean up the articles here. By clean up I mean remove the soapboxing while leaving a legitimate exposition of criticism of Scientology and adding a ton of truth about Scientology. I do what little I can but I am the only one here that fits that description at this time. Clueless POV-pushers abound, though. Luckily most editors here, including critics of Scientology, can see clueless POV-pushers for what they are. --Justanother 17:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Justanother, were you under the impression that this is some sort of game? Please leave the games elsewhere. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:23, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Lighten up, Antaeus. Life is a game. More fun that way. --Justanother 17:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead and call Miscavige. Do you seriously think that the powers-that-be in Misplaced Pages would allow Miscavige's nonnies to trample and win? Or isn't it the case that in fact you would have to withdraw from your bullying "clean-up" with egg all over your sorry little faces? Probably John Travolta would have to issue a public apology. Not that I speak for Misplaced Pages - just speculating. Interesting though to see the way your mind is really working - "clean-up", "legitimate exposition" - I think we all know what those terms mean in sinister Scieno-speak!! MarkThomas 17:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

sinister Scieno-speak only exists in your imagination. Like much of your criticism, I would wager. --Justanother 18:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The real problem is that there is almost no public interest in learning about Scientology. Hence, the lack of studies or serious news reports about it. The only people interested in working on the Scientology series WP articles, now 244 in number, are "critics", a few Scientologists who are trying to defend their group and some who are trying to promote it, and me, who has another agenda. I commented to WPean who was a member of Transcendental Meditation that it would take until 2 or 3 generations grew up in his group before there was any serious intellectual interest in it, as has happened with the Mormons. Steve Dufour 04:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Spam?

I realize you feel outnumbered, and though I can't offer you a handicap I can offer you a chance to discuss why this: L Ron Hubbard's own words illustrating the Xenu Space Opera Story is not really spam. I agree it does not belong where it was near the top, but it seems no worse than the other sites listed under the Independent section and it does deal with the subject at hand and has some primary sources (like some of his lectures). I know you wouldn't endorse the site personally but as long as it's listed with similar sites people will know what the point it's trying to make is.

I haven't looked at it thoroughly though, so if the same info can be found on xenu.net it could be worth removing for being superfluous. Anynobody 05:58, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

It is spam because the guy is spamming it in multiple articles. Anynobody, do you know what a WP:RS is?? Please review the policy if you have a question. Do you think that this project should include non-RS materials just for the hell of it? Sorry to be a bit blunt just it strikes me as odd that you think that an encyclopedia would endorse such a site. And inclusion is endorsement, no matter how you label it. Websites like that are little more than graffiti on the information superhighway. --Justanother 06:28, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

On second thought the website is more about Scientology than Hubbard, but on the subject of WP:RS I noticed that the site has a link to The Bridge which xenu.net does not. Would you still consider the site to be spam as a reference to the movie? I'm not saying the movie should be added here or under Scientology but if the site contains files which are RS like movies or documents that can be verified why should they be off limits? Anynobody 06:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I did not say the site was spam, I said it was being spammed. The site is non-RS, highly POV, inappropriate for this project. Anynobody, please just read the same refs that I read; WP:RS (WP:ATT and the FAQ for it), WP:EL, WP:NPOV. That is really all I have to say; read the policies. Thanks. --Justanother 06:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I assure you, that I have read them. In fact WP:ATT and what is says about primary sources is what inspired me to edit here. Did I misunderstand your edit summary?: 05:21, 4 April 2007 Justanother (Talk | contribs) (rv SPA spammer). I thought the info left by a spammer was spam, and you then said: :I did not say the site was spam... I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but if it wasn't spam what was it and why aren't files from it that can be verified as accurate not RS? Anynobody 07:36, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it adds anything that xenu.net doesn't already cover. And Justanother is right to point out that the site has been spammed on Misplaced Pages in the past - I recall this coming up before. -- ChrisO 08:18, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you that it doesn't belong in this article, (see above: on second thought the website is more about Scientology than Hubbard). Hypothetically, if a spam site has files which themselves stand up to verification are they usable? Anynobody 08:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Lead paragraphs

The suggested format for a lead paragraph can and should include discussion regarding crticism of the article's subject. It also points out that a good lead should include references to each sections discussed.

WP:LEAD#Writing about concepts When writing a lead section about ideas and concepts (such as "truth"), it can be helpful to introduce the topic as follows:

1. Context - describing the category or field in which the idea belongs.
2. Characterization - what the term refers to as used in the given context.
3. Explanation - deeper meaning and background.
4. Compare and contrast - how it relates to other topics, if appropriate.
5. Criticism - include criticism if there has been significant, notable criticism.

WP:LEAD#Suggestions The lead section should concisely reflect the content of the article as a whole. For many articles, these suggestions can be helpful in writing an appropriate lead:

• In the lead try to have a sentence, clause, or at least a word devoted to each of the main headlines in the article.
• The relative weight given to points in the lead should reflect the relative weight given to each in the remainder of the article.
• A significant argument not mentioned after the lead should not be mentioned in the lead.
• Avoid lengthy, detailed paragraphs.

I don't see any reason why we can't come to an agreement about this issue and get that tag removed. Anynobody 22:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

WP:LEAD says that an article greater than 30,000 characters is very large.

My word processor counted: 37,889 with no spaces. 44,965 with. I copied and pasted all sections from the article page except the lead, the TOC, references, and links/categories. It also counted characters that shouldn't count like and reference numbers. Even deducting those this article is well above 30,000 making 3,4, or even maybe 5 paragraphs appropriate.

Would it be inappropriate to split this article up? It was proposed at Sylvia Browne to make a subpage dedicated to her controversial biographical aspects and criticism, and it seems to have worked well. I've noticed that like her, there seems to be a dispute about more or less every aspect of Hubbard's life. Anynobody 23:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

One thing I have to say for the opening paragraph as it is now is that it makes you want to read on. :-) Steve Dufour 04:16, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with you Steve Dufour, it's important to keep the text readable. That is the ultimate challenge of course but in a contest between interest and information I think information should win. The point I'm trying to make by noting the number of characters is that we don't have to cram everything into one or two paragraphs. I think the one thing anyone can agree about him is that he had a very complicated life. The intro I wrote was designed to be a starting off point, but we should mention each section in the lead. (Not each subsection though, for example his military career should be mentioned but details about the subsections would be too much.) Anynobody 05:33, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Justanother I did my best to portray the founding of the Sea Org and RPF as accuratly and neutrally as possible. The RPF shouldn't be mentioned but the Sea Org does need to be, how would you describe the circumstances under which it was founded?(I could've sworn that the RPF was in there at one point, but since it's not now it shouldn't be mentioned) To keep as close to the article as possible I just termed the trouble legal difficulties and tried to give it a truthful but optimistic version of it's creation without mentioning the more unusual aspects like the billion year contract or even the uniforms.

I propose a goal of one to three paragraphs mentioning these subjects which are for the most part in there already, I've rephrased and re-ordered some of the writing career specifics as a propsal:

1. Early life
2. Education
3. Pre-Dianetics writing - he wrote for both pulp and science fiction magazines, making him a writer (it's just easier that way)
4. Military career
5. Dianetics
6. Scientology
7. Legal difficulties and life on the high seas
8. Post-Dianetics writing career
9. Later life
10. Controversial episodes - keep this until after his death
11. Hubbard in popular culture - since the pop culture references are usually allusions to one of the Controversial episodes this should follow it.

The problem is that the lead section is clunky, if you read it out loud the opening sentence sounds like a first grader telling his/her mother about somebody. I mean no offense to whoever wrote it because they seem to be trying to compromise on tone by being specific. Listing two different genres he wrote in is superfluous without listing them all, as they weren't the only types of writing he did. Anynobody 09:48, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I honestly don't see anything wrong with the lead paragraphs. Yes, it's general. That's what an intro is supposed to be -- it's supposed to be a general overview, with the details saved for the article. We don't need to list every single genre he wrote in; we don't need to list every single component of the Church of Scientology that he founded. -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:58, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I would have agreed with you a couple of days ago, but when I got here I noticed {{Lead section|date=January 2007}}. Since somebody had a problem with it, I refreshed my understanding of WP:LEAD. I listed the suggestions from it above. It also states:

The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describing its notable controversies, if there are any.

The lead section here now could not stand by itself. You're right that we don't need to list all the genres he wrote in, which is why the opening sentence should just say he was a writer. I think the lead needs expanding but it doesn't need to be so specific. This is also why I didn't include the subsections in the list of things it should mention above.

Essentially, according to WP:LEAD, the lead should be a mini version of the article as a whole. Since it is a guideline we can ignore it, and if that's the consensus I'll stop mentioning it. Anynobody 01:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

• FYI that tag has been there since:

  20:35, 8 November 2006 CloudNine (Talk | contribs) m (Lead section is too short for an article of this length)

  Anynobody 01:23, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

All Misplaced Pages guidelines and policies are shaped by observing where they produce satisfactory results and where they produce unsatisfactory results. I'll note that many of the suggestions given in WP:LEAD#Suggestions seem to be excellent suggestions for articles about ideas, happenings, and constructs, but much less suited to, say, biographical articles and geographical articles. Suppose, for instance, we have someone who's unquestionably notable, but only for one particular action they took (Lee Harvey Oswald, for example.) The full article should of course be an overview of their whole life; the lead should of course identify what they're notable for. But if we adhere strictly to the suggestion that "In the lead try to have a sentence, clause, or at least a word devoted to each of the main headlines in the article" then we're basically cluttering up a clean lead which tells what the person is notable for with everything they aren't notable for. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Lee Harvey Oswald was actually a bad example to cite as a good lead, because it doesn't mention he was a qualified USMC sharpshooter which is pretty relevant when discussing a man who is notable for what he is.

I get the impression you think that I want to include the whole article, I do not. However I think as mmany major sections should be mentioned as possible and some of the text reworded:

Lafayette Ronald Hubbard (13 March 1911 – 24 January 1986), better known as L. Ron Hubbard, was primarily known as an American freelance writer and founder of the Church of Scientology based on the ideas put forth in his book Dianetics. He was also an officer in the United States Navy during the Second World War and would go on to command a fleet of private Scientology vessels after later legal difficulties in the U.S. dictated his temporary relocation. Hubbard used the opportunity to form an elite group within Scientology he called the Sea Org. He continued writing and expanding the concepts on which he founded the Church until his January 24, 1986 death at a private California ranch. Hubbard was a controversial public figure, with many details of his life disputed.

The Church of Scientology official biographies present Hubbard as "larger than life, attracted to people, liked by people, dynamic, charismatic and immensely capable in a dozen fields". However, the Church's account of Hubbard's life has changed over time, with editions of the biographical account published over the years differing from each other.

In contrast, biographies of Hubbard by independent journalists and accounts by former Scientologists paint a much less flattering, and often highly critical, picture of Hubbard and in many cases contradict the material presented by the Church.

This is closer to what I'd like to see. Calling him a writer instead of a Pulp fiction and Science fiction magazine writer, dedicating one paragraph to praise and the last for criticism. Anynobody 06:18, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Here is my take on a lead. The last line I removed can go to the second paragraph. I think mine is more concise, more NPOV, and better represents the balance of the man's life.

Lafayette Ronald Hubbard (13 March 1911 – 24 January 1986), better known as L. Ron Hubbard, was a well-known American author of the pre-World War II pulp fiction era that went on to write the immensely popular self-help book Dianetics in 1950 and to found of the Church of Scientology in 1953. He served as an officer in the United States Navy during World War II and later commanded a small fleet of private Scientology vessels manned by his Sea Org, a group that became the management structure of the present-day Church. He continued writing and expanding the concepts on which he founded the Church until his January 24, 1986 death at a private California ranch.

Please tell me what you think. --Justanother 13:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it reads fluent and is an appropriate (for a encyclopedia article) introduction. COFS 18:24, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

It is definitely a major improvement and does read much better. The article mentions his life at sea and the Sea Org as happening around a time of "legal difficulties". The section is called Legal difficulties and life on the high seas. I mentioned the Sea Org as a positive byproduct of the situation he was in. Phrase it however you like, call it a legal controversy or disagreement, but it should be mentioned that he went to sea as sort of a get away from some difficulty. (That is what the article says.)

Without mentioning the Sea Org it sounds like he was just running away to live at sea. If the Sea Org is mentioned and the reason for leaving is not, it suggests that he went to form the org and for no other reason. Again, I think it is a big step in the right direction but to be complete should look something like this:

He was an avid seaman and served as an officer in the United States Navy during World War II. Later he commanded a small fleet of private Scientology vessels during a particularly controversial period in his life. At that time he created the Sea Org, which started as simply the crews who manned the vessels but has since evolved into the management structure of the present-day Church.

I'm not saying that we need to fill the lead with negative information but in order to truly be NPOV the critics must be addressed too. Anynobody 01:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the acknowedgement. All due respect, AN, but I feel that, of the few words of that intro paragraph, you want to make too many about the sea. Most of them should be about Scientology as that, with Dianetics, consumed at least 36 years of his life. Compare that to, what? four years in the active Navy. Scientology took up the vast portion of his life and directly and importantly affected hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people. You need to get a sense of perspective on this man. The Navy is trivial. The years at sea with the SO, less so but still minor. The barest mention that he served in the Navy is appropriate. I am not even sure that the SO years at sea belongs in the lead. It probably does not.

Lafayette Ronald Hubbard (13 March 1911 – 24 January 1986), better known as L. Ron Hubbard, was a well-known American author of the pre-World War II Golden Age of pulp fiction. He served as an officer in the United States Navy during World War II and afterwards, in 1950, wrote the immensely popular self-help book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health. In 1953, Hubbard founded of the Church of Scientology to forward his work on Scientology, an outgrowth of Dianetics. He continued researching and expanding the concepts of Dianetics and Scientology and setting policy for the growing Church of Scientology until his January 24, 1986 death at a private California ranch.

I think that is better. Controversy can go in the next paragraph as it interrupts the flow of the first and the back and forth makes things choppy and awkward. --Justanother 02:21, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Justanother you really appear to be trying to put your bias aside, but by not mentioning any criticism or controversy it creates a unbalance in his favor. Respectfully, most people don't see him the same way as Scientologists do. Life on the sea aside, the way I envisioned keeping the three paragraphs NPOV was like this:

• Paragraph 1: General overview including one point about how Scientologists see him and another about the criticism. (1 Pro 1 Con)
• Paragraph 2: Scientologists points about him slightly expanded. (Pro)
• Paragraph 3: The critics points about him slightly expanded. (Con)
• Result NPOV, equal number of points.

Your intro's make the balance look more like this:

• Paragraph 1: (Pro)
• Paragraph 2: (Pro)
• Paragraph 3: (Con)
• Result Pro-Scientology POV, more pro than con points.

WP:NPOV is about a balance between the various POVs. Anynobody 02:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

In actual fact, I do not edit from my "bias" except to the degree that I am biased for truth in these articles. Never been any other way for me. Nor do I see you as a biased editor. What you may not realize, AN, is just how highly Hubbard is regarded among non-Scientologists. That is likely because your sole exposure to Hubbard is in the poisoned atmosphere of internet criticism of him. Do me a favor, AN, put any preconceived notions that you might have about the man to the side for a moment and read through this site: http://www.lronhubbardtribute.org/iv/accolades/index.htm Pretend that all the people quoted there actually said all those things (they did of course, but critics like to pretend that Scientology sites would lie about something like that). --Justanother 03:28, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

• About the website you mentioned:

I'm sure there are some non-Scientologists who see Hubbard in a relatively positive way, however it's difficult for me to believe what is on the site you've pointed out because it doesn't mention a context for the people's comments, or when they said it. As an example, the site claims to be current as of 2006 and cites: James Barnes Safety Officer Rocketdyne Division Rockwell Aerospace Boeing bought Rockwell Aerospace in 1996. Do you have any references to any of these people directly? It goes back to the conversation we had on your talk page a while ago, the key is to find a source that has no interest in either trashing or worshiping him (like the Navy).

• About general POV of Hubbard

Acknowledging that some non-Cos people think of him in a positive way, you must also acknowledge that many people think of him in a negative way. We are supposed to write in a balanced way, that means not just talk about his positive traits OR his negative but rather to strike a balance. This is the only problem I have with your suggestions, they make no mention of the opposing view and only concentrates on how Scientology sees him. Anynobody 04:56, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Re the site. AN when a person does not assume good faith on the part of another when they have no reason to do otherwise, they are showing their bias. Do you have any real reason (other than the general "CoS is bad" that critics spew), any reason to think that the CoS would misquote a public person's words on that site? Such misquoting being the ultimate foot-bullet if they were ever called on it. You are hemming and hawing with this "relatively positive way" or "doesn't mention a context for the people's comments, or when they said it". Those comments re not "relative" and most of them stand without context and are timeless (the man has been dead for 20 years, I doubt that he will get in much more trouble). I thought you had no bias but I may be wrong because while your 2nd paragraph shows NPOV, your first does not. --Justanother 12:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Justanother welcome back from your hiatus. I mean no insult when I say this but, yes indeed I do have reason to question the information presented by pro-Scientology sources. You have to remember that these are the same sources that have in the past published documents like this:

Even you, I guess unconsciously, are misrepresenting the facts on this very talk page.

<< Ever read the Moulton testimony? I suggest you do. Hubbard, his crew, another ship, blimps. All making positive contact; sonar (not magnetic) and magnetic, hearing screws, seeing periscopes, diesel slicks. And what was that disallowed bit about a shore observer? Golly, maybe there was a sub chase. And what do we have to counter all that evidence that the chase actually occurred?? A CYA (Cover Your Ass) from some pissed-off higher-up?? Well, that is enough for us to smear the man and his crew and everyone else involved. Silly critics. --Justanother 21:16, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

If you bother to read Hubbard's report the only real help he got was from the SC which didn't have SONAR until their CO returned. That was the boat he was signaling with the whistle to drop depth charges after he ran out, none of the other ships wanted to engage or drop depth charges. Not because they thought he was right, but because they didn't hear anything (that wasn't in Hubbard's report, but it's what the others reported to Admiral Fletcher). Only the blimps had any kind of contact, and that was the "magnetic deposit".

I have read the Moulton Testimony, it shows that L Ron Hubbard was able to impress his friend and first officer, along with 60 or so men into thinking he knew what he was doing. Incidentally he would later blame most of the same men (minus Moulton who went on to get his own ship) for his having to anchor of the Eastern Coronado a month later for being too incompetent to return to base without him at the conn.

Here's the real document:

. Anynobody 09:33, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The above said, I do agree with your idea that my original version, while NPOV-ish, is somewhat one-sided. As I respect the man for what he accomplished and tend to forgive his peccadillos, it is difficult for me to "write for the enemy" in this instance. However a line with the notable and overarching criticism of Hubbard and his creation (Scientology) is not inappropriate in the lead paragraph. Why don't some of you guys go ahead and add that to my draft and we can go from there. What you, AN (since you are the only one with the problem), should understand is that, in some cases, while my POV would prevent me from creating something, my adherence to NPOV requires that I respect the POV of others. That is an important point for you to understand, AN, because it may be the point that throws you about me. My POV affects those bits I create, from scratch as it were (I don't have to write for the enemy if I don't care to), and other editors should review my work, as I review the work of other editors. My POV does not affect how I treat the creations of others because I evaluate them against the policies of Misplaced Pages, not against my POV (something some anti-Scientologists do also but that needs more work). What this means is that while I do not mind writing for the enemy in certain instances, like writing up Hubbard's military career, or his schooling, I am not about to write some overarching criticism of the man when I believe that he made one of the most important contributions to Man of any individual and that he dedicated his life to the effort despite the vast forces of governments and institutions that tried to shut him down. He succeeded and others are carrying on his work, that work being simply to make people happier and more able to influence their lives and the lives of others to the betterment of all. And plenty of non-Scientologists agree with that summary. And, yes, there are many that agree with the summary that he was a con-man. But, IMO, those people have mostly simply considered only superficial criticisms of the man (do we really care about his Naval career?) and the complaints of a very small number of vocal critics (a number of which edit here) and totally discount the testimony of tens of thousand of people that have been helped by Hubbard. That is just weird but that is indicative of how things work on the internet. Thanks. --Justanother 15:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

ps, to AN, you are wasting your time over at User:Orsini/Sandbox3 and User talk:Orsini/Sandbox3 and it reflects badly on you and all those involved over there, for example and all the other clues people have been trying to send you to knock off your preoccupation with me, like here or, more directly, here ("Smee and Anynobody, let go of your grievance - Geogre") and here (for me it merely comes across an effort to prolong a dispute. - pgk). I can find others if you need me to. Hopefully you can take good advice and "let go". I bring this up not because I have any fear of a User RfC (actually one part of me would love you to take that RfC live) but because I really do not want to waste any more of my time and the time of others with this silly personal bickering. --Justanother 15:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

All the above said; here ya go:

Lafayette Ronald Hubbard (13 March 1911 – 24 January 1986), better known as L. Ron Hubbard, was a well-known American author of the pre-World War II Golden Age of pulp fiction. He served as an officer in the United States Navy during World War II and afterwards, in 1950, wrote the immensely popular self-help book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health. In 1953, Hubbard founded of the Church of Scientology to forward his work on Scientology, an outgrowth of Dianetics. He continued researching and expanding the concepts of Dianetics and Scientology and setting policy for the growing Church of Scientology until his January 24, 1986 death at a private California ranch. While many people hold Hubbard in the highest esteem and have attested to the efficacy of his Dianetics and Scientology techniques, he has also been attacked as a charlatan and his Church of Scientology called a dangerous cult that practices little more than brainwashing.

How is that? My only question is should he be called a "con-man" or would charlatan or ??? be better. I think charlatan. --Justanother 16:04, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Your suggestion is better than the last one, but some of the wording is still a bit too POV.

• well-known was he really that well known before the war?
• author of the pre-World War II Golden Age of pulp fiction makes it sound like he invented the genre.
• Immensely popular sounds like an advertisement
• attacked makes it sound like Hubbard is "right" and critics are "wrong"...we're not trying to prove either.
• It also didn't mention that he was called those things [charlatan and brainwashing) by some governments.
• Many critics accuse it of being a business rather than a religion.

Lafayette Ronald Hubbard (13 March 1911 – 24 January 1986), better known as L. Ron Hubbard, was an American author during the pre-World War II Golden Age of pulp fiction. He served as an officer in the United States Navy during World War II and afterwards, in 1950, wrote the self-help book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health. Three years later, Hubbard founded the Church of Scientology, an outgrowth of Dianetics. He continued researching and expanding the concepts of Dianetics and Scientology until his January 24, 1986 death at a private California ranch. He is held high regard by Scientologists who say the efficacy of his Dianetics and Scientology techniques have helped them live better lives. Skeptics and even some nations have shown him to be a charlatan and liar by studying his claims and writing. The same people have called the Church of Scientology a cult that practices little more than brainwashing and profiteering.

Anynobody 23:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Charlatan is an opinion that is belied by the thousands of testimonies that Scientology works. An opinion that some have and some do not. Not shown. Of as opposed to during? Of is better prose and does not imply what you claim it does. Well-known? You better believe it and to think otherwise shows poor research on your part and simply relying on your POV to tell you. Dianetics was immensely popular and to say otherwise again shows a lack of research and relying on a POV on your part. Leave out immensely if it bothers you so much. Attacked is what he was (and is). Again, trying to change that to shown is POV on your part. Attacked is not POV, shown is. He is held in high regard by other than Scientologists, too.

Lafayette Ronald Hubbard (13 March 1911 – 24 January 1986), better known as L. Ron Hubbard, was a well-known American author of the pre-World War II Golden Age of pulp fiction. He served as an officer in the United States Navy during World War II and afterwards, in 1950, wrote the popular self-help book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health. In 1953, Hubbard founded the Church of Scientology to promote an outgrowth of Dianetics that he dubbed Scientology and which he defined as an "applied religious philosophy". He continued researching and expanding the concepts of Dianetics and Scientology and setting policy for the growing Church of Scientology until his January 24, 1986 death at a private California ranch. While many people hold Hubbard in the highest esteem and have attested to the efficacy of his Dianetics and Scientology techniques, he has also been branded as a charlatan and a liar by critics.

Here ya go. There are governments, scholars, doctors, people on both sides so no need to expand, people is good enough, --Justanother 02:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

You've actually ignored a couple of my points, the first I notice is the point about being well known. I'm willing to believe you, but I'd need to see some kind of non-partisan proof. Like a magazine, newspaper, or something showing he was well known. If that is accurate then he either made no money from being well known, as he claimed in forms he filled out, or was lying when he filled out the forms.

Dianetics did make him a grip of money, but how do you define immensely popular? For example how many copies of Dianetics have been printed compared to the Bible or Koran?

The term "attacked" is indeed POV. If I say you are attacking my proposed lead paragraph it implies something quite different than if I say you are criticizing it.

Hubbard was a liar, he lied to several banks and committed check fraud (which is what writing a bad check essentially is).

There are other issues of course, but we can start here with the issues above. Anynobody 09:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Judge Latey

This bit has little place in the article, certainly not where it currently sits.

1. This is an article on Hubbard; that case was a Family Court case about child custody for a regular garden-variety Scientologist.
2. It is in the "Legal difficulties" section for Hubbard but has nothing to do with his legal difficulties. You can see that it is clearly out-of-place there.
3. Sure, the judge parrots critic lines but that is all he is doing, parroting. Nothing new. All those points about Hubbard are brought up elsewhere and in more relevant circumstances like Inquiry Boards on Scientology. Latey adds nothing and is redundant.
4. Where this belongs, if anywhere, and only as a mention, is in the main Scientology article under goverment reaction in the UK.

Please take it out, it is irrelevant to this article. --Justanother 23:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, User:Misou and User:COFS. Obiter dicta. Cool. --Justanother 16:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

• Here is the sourced material backed up by citations, that was removed:

In 1984 Justice Latey, ruling in the High court of London, stated in his judgment that Scientology is "dangerous, immoral, sinister and corrupt" and "has its real objective money and power for Mr. Hubbard". Justice Latey also addressed Hubbard's representation of himself:

... he has made these, among other false claims:
That he was a much decorated war hero. He was not.
That he commanded a corvette squadron. He did not.
That he was awarded the Purple Heart, a gallantry decoration for those wounded in action. He was not wounded and was not decorated.
That he was crippled and blinded in the war and cured himself with Dianetic technique. He was not crippled and was not blinded.
That he was sent by U.S. Naval Intelligence to break up a black magic ring in California. He was not. He was himself a member of that occult group and practiced ritual sexual magic in it.
That he was a graduate of George Washington University and an atomic physicist. The facts are that he completed only one year of college and failed the one course on nuclear physics in which he enrolled.
There is no dispute about any of this. The evidence is unchallenged.<!-p. 339 -->

This material is speaking directly about the subject of this article, and is highly pertinent to the article itself and should therefore remain in the article. Smee 16:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC).

It is redundant, he is simply parroting critical material presented to him during a non-related child custody hearing. Obiter dicta. If you want those points, just make them where they belong using RS. Not too much to ask. --Justanother 17:23, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Obiter dicta or "useless blabber" has no place in an encyclopedic article, especially as Obiter dicta are not legally binding and not prosecutable, no matter how crazy or libelous, and thus regularly abused for defamation. Obiter dicta by nature cannot be a WP:RS. COFS 17:56, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

What a fascinating claim, that judges can somehow be assumed without any evidence to be "simply parroting" the assertions made by one side and not make any attempt to evaluate them. What nonsense. -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:38, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, you can have your opinion and I can have mine but the fact is that the material has nothing to do with the section it is placed in and, other than that it parrots opinions presented elsewhere and in RS, little to do with this article. The actual case having nothing to do with L. Ron Hubbard. --Justanother 03:42, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

All right, so suggest a section where it would be more appropriate. However, your delusion that simply by parroting the phrase "Obiter dicta! Obiter dicta!" over and over it will act like a magic spell to eliminate an RS you find troublesome is just that, delusion. You have shown no evidence whatsoever that the statements in question are obiter dicta; since the custody hinged in a major way on whether an environment so permeated with the intolerant and unethical attitudes practiced and preached by the Church of Scientology could be a fit environment in which to raise the children, for an untrained editor like yourself to carelessly yet fervently deem them obiter dicta not forming a necessary part of the judicial opinion is presumptuous and dubious indeed. COFS's statement that obiter dicta "regularly abused for defamation" seems also to be the product of a mind that has a very good idea of what would be convenient for him for the law to be, and almost no idea what the law actually is. Consider this: a journalist who examines some of the evidence from both sides of the issue -- amounts limited by whom he can actually reach for comment, and what research materials he can dig up before the news organization's deadline -- when that story goes out over the air or off to the presses, it becomes an RS. Now you are trying to argue that a judge, who has years of training in sorting out reliable evidence from unreliable evidence and sound argument from sophistry, and who has two teams each working to make sure that he is not lacking any evidence or any argument which pertains to their side of the case, and who knows well that anything in his decision which even hints that he improperly favored one side or the other can be used as grounds for an appeal of his decision -- you're trying to argue that that judge's decision is less of an RS than the journalist's story? Because you just learned two words of Latin? Poppycock. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:32, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

All right, so suggest a section where it would be more appropriate. You have it mixed up, Antaeus. If you can place it in a proper location then do so but it has no place where it is now and its placement is disputed ergo it stays out please until we sort this out. Q.E.D. Thanks. --Justanother 02:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm afraid it's you who are a bit mixed up on this issue. We should be trying to improve Misplaced Pages with our edits. If you can suggest a better section in the article for it to be moved to, that's perfectly reasonable. Removing it entirely because you think the section it's in is not the best section for it is no kind of improvement. -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Compromise proposal

I see Misou, COFS, and Justanother's point about the statement being Obiter dicta. Since it was a child custody case, Hubbard and Scientology weren't really the subject, so the stuff from Judge Latey should be excluded. I changed my mind, see below. Anynobody 00:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

However what he said was true, and has been discussed in court cases about the CoS. Here is an example from the 1984 Armstrong trial:

In addition to violating and abusing its own members civil rights, the organization over the years with its 'Fair Game' doctrine has harassed and abused those persons not in whom it perceives as enemies. The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder . The evidence portrays a man who has been virtually a pathological liar when it comes to his history, background and achievements. The writings and documents in evidence additionally reflect his egoism, greed, avarice, lust for power, and vindictiveness and aggressiveness against persons perceived by him to be disloyal or hostile." -- Judge Paul G. Breckenridge, Jr., 6/20/84 (Scientology v. Armstrong, affirmed on appeal 232 Cal.App.3rd 1060, 283 Cal.Rptr. 917.)

As to Judge Latey's points about Hubbard's claims of military achievement, they can be disproven through the Navy:

That he was a much decorated war hero. He was not.

That he commanded a corvette squadron. He did not. That he was awarded the Purple Heart, a gallantry decoration for those wounded in action. He was not wounded and was not decorated. That he was crippled and blinded in the war and cured himself with Dianetic technique. He was not crippled and was not blinded.

That he was sent by U.S. Naval Intelligence to break up a black magic ring in California. He was not. He was himself a member of that occult group and practiced ritual sexual magic in it.

and this from academic records:

That he was a graduate of George Washington University and an atomic physicist. The facts are that he completed only one year of college and failed the one course on nuclear physics in which he enrolled.

As I've said, there are lots of other sources out there. When one ends up in court as much as he did there are probably other options for judicial sources. Anynobody 05:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

If there are other sources out there, bring them on. There also have been plenty of court cases about Scientology or not even about Scientology which include Obiter Dicta totally positive about Scientology. This is not the point. The point is that the personal opinion of this judge is not relevant and the case in which this opinion was uttered is not relevant as well. Documents are. If you got some, bring them on. I got loads of them, too, just did not find the time to scan them. COFS 05:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

That's my point COFS, I understand that Obiter dicta is a judges opinion not related to the ruling. There are cases where the court has made a ruling, like Judge Paul G. Breckenridge above. (It isn't Obiter dicta if it's in the ruling). Anynobody 05:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Obiter Dicta is always in the ruling, somewhere, but disrelated to the issue of the case. COFS 05:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Not when it's the subject at hand, Latey had to decide on a child custody issue between relatives. Breckenridge was making a decision on whether the CoS had a case against Armstrong. In the former Scientology or Hubbard aren't the primary issue. In the later case they are. The judge didn't believe them, and explained why. That is a judgement or ruling, and when he/she gives their opinion regarding something like that it is not Obiter Dicta COFS. Anynobody 05:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

IAMNOTALAWYER and apparently, AN, neither are you. Not sure if obiter dicta or ratio decidendi strictly applies. This is family court. There are no charges; it is all opinion of the judge. Example: let's say a dad has his issues and a mom has had some drinking problem but has promised to reform and is in rehab. One judge might decide that she will correct her problem and is the "better" parent while another might decide that she will not. Their statement of their opinion means nothing, only that in their opinion blah blah blah. This is just blah blah blah opinion. Antaeus floats the argument that it is really special opinion because it is from a judge. Plenty of equally intelligent "neutral" people think highly of Hubbard. The point is to not fill the article with primary source opinions. There is no need to and it invites finding and adding "counter opinions". A ridiculous exercise; let's just stick to the secondary sources here. --Justanother 11:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, this is what is going to happen. Dicta is additional blabber by definition, just as if the judge could not withhold some sneering comment (or enthusiastic sideline). If we decide that such things as the Latey-dicta is valid for the article - and I think it is not - I will dig out my own Dicta collection and start adding in. COFS 16:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

In the interest of clarity:

• Latey discussing his views of Hubbard/Scientology in a family court custody situation = Obiter Dicta.
• Breckenridge discussing his views of Hubbard/Scientology in a civil action by the CoS against Armstrong = Ratio decidendi.

There are plenty of cases in which the CoS or Hubbard was involved where a judge's opinion would not be Obiter Dicta since Hubbard/CoS are a party to the case. Anynobody 01:50, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Too easy, man. Read the Misplaced Pages definitions of both. Even a case with Hubbard/CoS as a party could have Obiter Dicta. Let's say Hubbard sues his neighbor for growing his apple tree over his side of the fence and the judge puts half of Scientology in the decision (like Hubbard would be on the road doing lectures so much, about Scientology, which is blahblahblah). Get the point? Dicta is a bulking agent used by judges if their judgment is too thin. Or their got paid or got political pressure or so. Dicta is the Judge's rant section. And the B'Ridge quote might be Dicta or not, you can't say just from the case title. Misou 04:01, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The case was brought by the CoS and Mrs. Hubbard against Gerald Armstrong which the Church lost. The statement I quoted was part of Breckenridge's reasons for ruling the way he did. His opinions about Hubbard and the CoS apply directly to his decision, which is why it's Ratio decidendi.

• In this matter heretofore taken under submission, the Court announces its intended decision as follows: As to the tort causes of action, plaintiff, and plaintiff in intervention are to take nothing, and the defendant is entitled to Judgment and costs. As to the equitable actions, the court finds that neither plaintiff has clean hands, and that at least as of this time, are not entitled to the immediate return of any document or objects previously retained by the court clerk.

(The Latin means "the reason (or rationale) for the decision.") Anynobody 05:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

No, man, THE LAW, what does THE LAW say? A judgment interprets the law for one or the other party. You know? Not: Judge Hammersmith thinks that Party A is a sweet crispy boy and that's why he is right. But: Per Article 12, Paragraph 753, etc. I am hereby sentencing all Sockpuppets to Hell. And so on. Any personal statement and other BS are Dicta by definition. Misou 05:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Respectfully Misou, that is not what the law says. Ratio decidendi: "It is a legal phrase which refers to the legal, moral, political, and social principles used by a court to compose the rationale of a particular judgment. Unlike obiter dicta, the principles of judgment for ratio decidendi stand as potentially binding precedent, through the principle of stare decisis." The judge found in favor of the defendant for among other reasons:

In addition to violating and abusing its own members civil rights, the organization over the years with its 'Fair Game' doctrine has harassed and abused those persons not in whom it perceives as enemies. The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder . The evidence portrays a man who has been virtually a pathological liar when it comes to his history, background and achievements. The writings and documents in evidence additionally reflect his egoism, greed, avarice, lust for power, and vindictiveness and aggressiveness against persons perceived by him to be disloyal or hostile."

Breckenridge ruled in favor of the defendant, Armstrong, because of the opinion he formed about the CoS and Hubbard during the case.

Latey's remarks were obiter dicta because the CoS was neither a plaintiff, defendant, or participant in the hearing he was ruling on. Breckenridge's comments were ratio decidendi because the CoS was the plaintiff in the case he was ruling on as such his opinion of them and Hubbard actually does pertain to the case at hand. Anynobody 06:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• I believe there is a WP page that cautions editors to be careful when the legal Latin starts flying. It's not Wiki is not a courtroom, but it's out there somewhere. AndroidCat 12:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you happen to know which one does that? I'd be happy to take a look at it, but I must point out that in this discussion we are only talking about two terms. Obiter dicta, non-related commentary from a judge before ruling. Ratio decidendi, reasons a judge makes his/her ruling. Anynobody 23:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Here is the basic syllogism being offered by those who believe that Judge Latey's assessment of Hubbard must go out as obiter dicta:

• Judge Latey's assessment of Hubbard was obiter dicta.
• All obiter dicta are not legally binding statements.
• Therefore, Judge Latey's assessment of Hubbard does not meet Misplaced Pages's requirements for reliable sourcing.

Now, the first big problem with the above syllogism is with the first premise. A number of editors have asserted that the quoted lines from Judge Latey are obiter dicta -- but many editors think they know a lot more about the law than they actually do. I have no reason to believe that COFS (who put forth this issue of obiter dicta in the first place) is a legal expert, and even if he claimed to be, the recent problems with Essjay should caution us against accepting any such claims casually.

However, even if that premise was not so doubtful, the syllogism is still no good, because it depends on the enthymeme "No statements which are not legally binding meet Misplaced Pages's requirements for reliable sources" and this, to understate just a bit, would certainly surprise the hell out of Jimbo Wales. So far as I know there has never been a single story in the New York Times which has ever been legally binding by virtue of being printed. Are we to take from this that New York Times stories aren't reliable sources? Like I said, it would really surprise Jimbo Wales to learn that this rule has somehow been passed by stealth when he wasn't looking. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

New Information

I reread the Latey ruling and now feel the discussion of the CoS is not obiter dicta. I missed the part where he said something like all things being equal I'd let the kids stay with their father, except for CoS factors like education which directly impact the kids. Clearly all the Scientology info was the primary reason for his ruling. (If he would have said all those things and still awarded custody to the father, the concept of obiter dicta would be accurate and his comments not relevant to the article). Anynobody 00:16, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

If you are applying this logic and measure there would be many more judgment obiter dicta to be put in this article. On the Latey custody case, what tipped the scale was that the father lied to the court (at least that is what the Judge says) and that he - Latey - did not trust him enough to raise the children free from Scientology interference until they are old enough to decide themselves. That is the issue at hand - child custody to the father or to the mother. COFS 03:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Indeed he does say that the fact which clenched his decision was the fact that the father lied and the judge was therefore concerned all the negative aspects he listed about Hubbard/Scientology causing harm to the children (which he didn't trust the father to keep the kids away from, as a result of his earlier lie.) It wasn't so much the lie itself as the implications of him possibly lying about limiting the kids exposure to Scientology. That is why all the things he said were relevant to the case and Hubbard. diff Anynobody 03:39, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

We are turning in circles here. It is Dicta. Hubbard was no party of the case. Otherwise he could have defended himself against the statements but not being a party prevents that. That's why there is such regulation as a Obiter Dicta classification. This case must have been a mess. The kids later ran away from their mother, got on drugs and crashed school. The son returned to his father in 1989 and the mother sent the daughter there as well in 1990 to her help her getting back on the feet (Ref: sworn and notarized declaration of David B. (the father), dated 19 July 1991). COFS 06:07, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Emphasis added

An obiter dictum (plural obiter dicta, often referred to simply as dicta), Latin for a statement said "by the way", is a remark or observation made by a judge that, although included in the body of the court's opinion, does not form a necessary part of the court's decision. In a court opinion, obiter dicta include, but are not limited to, words "introduced by way of illustration, or analogy or argument."

It may seem like circles, but really I think we are close to resolving this or exhausting all logical arguments. The bottom line is this:

1. The father promised not to excessively expose the kids to Scientology.
2. The father was caught by Judge Letay in a lie regarding a different subject.
3. Judge Latey describes Hubbard/Scientology as he did, including their demonstrated past of lies and deception.
4. Because father lied to him once Letay believes the father was lying about his intentions regarding the kids and Scientology, since he noted Scientologists are taught to lie (according to the evidence he heard).
5. Mother gets custody.

Because of his views about the CoS/Hubbard and the father's demonstration of dishonesty he awarded custody to the mother. If Scientology was not an issue, he would have awarded custody to the father as he had been inclined to do originally.

It's sad that the family ended up the way it did, but in this case Letay's views about the CoS are directly part of his judgment. Obiter dictum DOES NOT apply toward the judge's reasoning, it is information like analogies, illustration of a point, or rhetorical arguments. Anynobody 06:47, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

As I said, we are turning in circles. You have decided on the outcome of this discussion and you are not open for arguments. Latey smears L. Ron Hubbard based on the lie the father presented. Hubbard was not present and could not say something against it or file libel suit against Latey. But this is also not necessary as it is Obiter Dicta and not relevant for the case. If it would be relevant there would be a remedy for such a situation (Judge smears people who are neither a party to the case nor even affected by the type of law being decided upon (custody law). He was not even in the country or knew any of the participants of the case.). That is why any of Latey's words - except for the part which grants custody to the mother - are not relevant for the case and that is why this whole case is not relevant for an article on L. Ron Hubbard. COFS 02:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Respectfully we are not going in circles, I have listed why his remarks were relevant to his ruling. You have listed irrelevant and unconvincing reasons for them being invalid per your definition of obiter dictum.

• "Hubbard was no party of the case. Otherwise he could have defended himself..." unconvincing- He wasn't being sued, at stake was the welfare and benefit of the children which the case involved. Part of their welfare is how the question of religion will be handled since the parents no longer agreed on one religion. At that point the nature of the religion and the reputation of founder became relevant to the case.
• "...what tipped the scale was that the father lied to the court..." unconvincing - He had promised to limit the kids exposure to Scientology as his ex wife requested. Since he had proven a willingness to lie, and the evidence Latey heard showed that Scientology actively encouraged lying at the time, he ruled against the father. It's not the lie itself but the possible consequences of him lying again, exposing the kids to Scientology against the wishes of their mother. Since he viewed the CoS as he did, the ruling was to keep the kids away from it. (It is part of his reasoning, therefore it isn't obiter dictum).
• "...The kids later ran away from their mother, got on drugs and crashed school..." irrelevant - Since he couldn't see the future and the issue at hand is the reasoning he used to come to his decision this is a sad but irrelevant contention. (Incidentally can you provide a link to the sworn statement? I'm curious about what else happened.)

I don't mean to sound like a smart ass but I haven't "... decided on the outcome of this discussion and you are not open for arguments." You haven't offered an argument to show why all of his statements had nothing to do with his decision, which is what obiter dictum is. Show me why they aren't related to his decision and I'll agree with you again. Anynobody 03:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous and lame. Golly, if we find a judge in a child custody case opining that video games are bad, are we going to add that to the video game article? If we find a judge in a divorce case opining that alcohol is bad, are we going to put that in the alcohol article. Of course not. This whole premise is lame. Personally, I would not waste more time on it - put it out ot RfC or whatever. It is lame and does not belong in an encyclopedic article. --Justanother 04:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but we're discussing this issue as it relates to L. Ron Hubbard so I honestly don't know if judicial quotes belong in the articles you mentioned Justanother. In this case it illustrates controversy about the nature of his philosophy and religion internationally. Hubbard affected many people's lives with his ideas about religion and MEST, this has caused controversy. As you probably know, controversy is relevant in an encyclopedic article. (If it wasn't, guidelines like WP:LEAD would say to keep it out altogether). Anynobody 05:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Misou's unfounded allegations of destructive edits

Within the last two hours user Feldspar not only senselessly delete content on talk pages but insists to "not get it" on what an obiter dictum is. Well, you can be right, user Feldspar, but not in here. Promise. Misou 05:42, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Feldspar, that's enough. You are going to stop vandalizing in here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Misou (talk • contribs) 05:42, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Misou, false accusations like that will get you into trouble. As anyone can verify for themmselves, there is no edit which matches Misou's inflammatory allegation of "senselessly delete content on talk pages" and as for the rest, I hardly think there is a policy anywhere on Misplaced Pages that says "when some editor starts spouting off legal Latin and acting as if he's actually a trained lawyer who understands the jargon he's babbling, every editor must immediately take him at face value no matter how dubious his claims are, or face consequences." -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:37, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah, quite by accident I've found the edit that forms the basis for Misou's uncivil accusations, though I never would have found them if I trusted Misou's description of "within the last two hours". What he is referring to is in fact my attempt to fix his duplication of an entire page section with this edit. If I had been at my own computer at the time I could have used the tools that I prefer to use, looking for portions of the duplicated sections that were not identical so that the duplication could be removed without removing anything new. In this case I was at someone else's computer, had to make do with the tools I had available, and despite checking twice, somehow managed to miss the fact that something new had been added to one of the two copies of the section. Since I couldn't find any new content, however, I just reverted back to the version before the edit; I assumed that Misou had been trying to add some comment but that the comment had been swallowed up by the same glitch that caused the duplication.

My edit was a good-faith attempt to clean up a mess. For Misou to jump all over that good-faith effort and scream about "vandalization", even after he is aware of the duplication caused by his own edit which required cleanup efforts in the first place, is an unseemly display of poisonous paranoia. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:18, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Good faith is valid for unexperienced Misplaced Pages editors, and not even for those if the accuser is Antaeus Feldspar and the newbie is myself. Remember? Anyway, you won't get baby-treatment. Otherwise I am happy that found that edit. Further reference goes to the rv's you follow me with. I get the impression that you are trying to incite a personal vendetta here between you and me. I am not interested in that, you will need to find someone else. Misou 03:01, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Translation: "Even though 'Assume good faith' means 'Do not leap to hysterical accusations of ulterior motives and willful wrongdoing when simpler explanations such as not being aware of particular rules or not being aware of certain relevant information are possible', I, Misou, have decided that Antaeus Feldspar is unworthy of being treated with such consideration. Even though at all other times I treat his experience as worthless and meaningless, for this one purpose I will choose to regard his experience as so vast and mighty that he is incapable of human error, and thus deserving of all the hysterical condemnation I can heap on him for what must by process of elimination have been sinister vicious willful wrongdoing. Oh, and I will also reiterate my past false accusations that Antaeus Feldspar has failed to assume good faith in regards to me: when he discovered my wrongful attempt to mark for 'proposed deletion' an article that had already survived two AfDs and was therefore obviously not one of the "uncontroversial deletion candidates" that proposed deletion is intended for, he failed to attribute my incorrect action to a simple good-faith explanation, such as me not being aware that articles which have survived AfD are not eligible for proposed deletion, or being unaware that the article survived two previous AfDs. Well, actually, he proposed both those simple good-faith explanations, but he didn't do it nicely enough to suit me, so I'll simply continue to allege that he failed to assume good faith, no matter what the facts may be." -- Antaeus Feldspar 19:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Misou's accusations

WARNING: Misplaced Pages does not take any responsibility for physical or mental damage as a result of reading the following "discussion".

Honestly. Boys! And girl! Can you get back to actual edits or what? COFS 05:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

COFS, I've been doing both. I don't appreciate being accused of intentionally misquoting a source. Anynobody 05:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Really, I thought this is the normal behavior in here. Incomplete quotes, out-of-context quotes, irrelevant dicta. As long as it smears Scientologists anything seems to be appropriate. COFS 16:26, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

1. Misou when did Antaeus Feldspar delete content on this talk page?
2. I didn't write the quote you wanted citation for, I happened to see the quote it was referring to in the original document and figured whoever first put it in included the full quote. (Incidentally you are leaving out a word too "here") Accusing me of intentionally misquoting the source is incorrect. (Trying to do something like on purpose would be pretty stupid considering I was posting a primary source).
3. Making the accusation in the edit summary is both cowardly (if you want to accuse me of something about this article bring your accusations here), and a violation of what that field is actually used for. Anynobody 05:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Here is some proof to show you are dead wrong about me. Justanother made this edit before I even started editing on Misplaced Pages, it's been like that for a LONG time. Anynobody 06:01, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I reverted to the last non-vandalized version and made the corrections noted. Anynobody 06:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, Anynobody, to ignore you. But your accusations are confused and you might want to straighten it out first. I am not sorry that you didn't make it to become an Admin. Come again. Misou 03:01, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I haven't accused you of anything Misou. You accused Antaeus Feldspar of deleting content here and you accused me of intentionally misquoting a reference in your edit summary, So kindly explain your accusations, Anynobody 04:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Accusing your fellow editors of vandalizing in a content dispute is inappropriate on either side, is uncivil, and borders on personal attack. Please lose the habit - that to all concerned including myself if I have been guilty of same. Thank you. --Justanother 14:35, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Are you talking to me or Misou? I'm not saying Misou vandalized the page, I'm saying the page has been vandalized a lot recently: history. Anynobody 23:28, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I mentioned you Justanother to illustrate that the error in the quote has been there for a long time and that supporters missed it too. Nothing negative intended, since I doubt Misou would believe you let it stay so long on purpose. Anynobody 02:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

AN, I do not think that you are one calling other editor's work vandalism. Here is an example by User:Fubar Obfusco. Others do it too. Not OK. --Justanother 02:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Attempts to remove cited, sourced, relevant information from this article, in pursuit of the same tired old failed effort by the Church of Scientology to suppress reporting of its history and crimes, will always fail here.

CoS staff and public need to understand this. Misplaced Pages is not a "critic" site any more than it is a Church site. This is not xenu.net and it is not Lermanet. However, we have no tolerance whatsoever for censorship, for negationism, for attempts by partisans of any stripe to silence the truthful reporting of history, including unpleasant facts of history.

Wikipedians will not permit Scientologists to censor unpleasant facts about Scientology's history, any more than we would permit Turks to censor cited historical facts about Turkey's genocide of Armenians; or Republicans to censor cited historical facts about Abu Ghraib; or Communists to censor facts about Stalin's purges; what-have-you.

We know that many Scientologists have tried to censor facts about the Church's history, just as we know that many Turks have tried to censor the Armenian genocide, and so forth. We are not oblivious to these attempts at censorship. We resist them because we hate censorship, not out of hate for Scientology or Turkey.

(We also know that there must be anti-censorship Scientologists just as there are anti-censorship Turks and Republicans and Communists. We invite them to work with us here. But there is no place here for pro-censorship partisans; censorship is inherently anti-NPOV and as such incompatible with working on Misplaced Pages.)

We aren't anti-Scientology; we're pro-truth. --FOo 04:48, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Nice speech. Here is one for you. While Wikipedians have in the past turned a blind and uncaring eye to propagandizing in the Scientology articles and the proliferance of highly POV, non-RS opinionated pseudo-sources, they did it more out of ignorance than out of ill-will. That is the neutral editors. Other editors have, IMO, snickered and gleefully rubbed their hands while fighting any attempt by Scientologists and neutral editors that are truly "pro-truth" to remove this inappropriate material and blatant bias. Which one are you, sir? I think your edits and your comments are telling. Including your above bit of propagandizing. Guess what, sir, you and your ilk have allowed Misplaced Pages to become a near-mirror of xenu or lerma. When have you, sir, ever removed a bit of scandalous opinion "sourced" solely by xenu or lerma? Never, I would wager. Yet how quick are you and your ilk to remove anything that hints of "pro-Scientology POV" sourced in anything less than impeccable RS? I ask only that the same standards be applied to anti-Scientology material as have been applied here to pro-Scientology material and not vice-versa because the standards applied to anti-Scientology material have been hideously low indeed. But you, sir, and your ilk, did little, if anything, to address that, did you? I invite you, sir, to join me in addressing these articles because if what we have now is representative of "your group", I think I will pass on joining as, I imagine, would most editors here if they were to give it more than a passing thought. You, sir, do not speak for Misplaced Pages or Wikipedians. --Justanother 05:42, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Certain Turks also insist that anyone who brings up the Armenian genocide is an anti-Turkish bigot, just as you seem to insist that anyone who brings up crimes committed by or for CoS is anti-Scientology. Likewise, there are those who think that talking about the abuses committed by the U.S. government at Abu Ghraib makes one anti-American.

However, relating the historical truth is only anti-Turkish if you believe that history is anti-Turkish. Likewise, relating the facts about Scientology is only anti-Scientology if you think the facts are anti-Scientology. Is that the position you want to be in? Because that's where you're putting yourself.

It is a well-documented fact that L. Ron Hubbard vastly exaggerated his personal accomplishments -- in academia (as a "nuclear physicist"), in the U.S. Navy, and otherwise. It isn't "anti-Scientology" to report this fact; it's just truth. --FOo 06:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Foo, so what. Stop drooling. The discussion here is whether AHL and company are reliable source, them being open, active and vocal critics of Hubbard, Scientology and the whole lot. They have an openly destructive agenda. I don't care, what they have on their websites. I give a damn on their opinion and they have a right to voice it. But this is Misplaced Pages. This is a place for neutral information of an encyclopedic character. This is not MySpace, YouTube or some blogosphere. This is a place where also you have to hold back with your diatribes. I did not see you doing something against sources like digg.com or some blog (anyone can smear). I am missing your great calls for neutrality when some Scientologists got overrun in Misplaced Pages (COFS seems to be one), by a drooling crowd of pitbull writers. You are hiding in the crowd, man, feeling safe because Scientology lawyers care shit about this place (and I wonder why, seeing this obvious crap in the Scientology-related articles). If I would be them, I'd gear up for class action against Misplaced Pages - for discrimination - and name you as a witness. Misou 03:01, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

--Justanother 05:42, 7 April 2007 (UTC) said

While Wikipedians have in the past turned a blind and uncaring eye to propagandizing in the Scientology articles and the proliferance of highly POV, non-RS opinionated pseudo-sources, they did it more out of ignorance than out of ill-will. That is the neutral editors.

Do you see anyone doing that here, and if so regarding what issues? You're probably right about some people being out to propagandize on Scientology articles in general, but if neutral editors are messing up somehow here we need to know specifics. I'm preparing to add information about Lt. Hubbard's brief time with Naval Intelligence/what happened in Australia, and his time aboard the other two ships in his career, YP-422 and Algol.

Before I clean up, upload the documents, and add my edits I want to know what you have issues with here to save myself any unnecessary work. Anynobody 23:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

The African tribesman

Instead of exhausting my reverts, I would appreciate if User:COFS could enlighten us how the segment he deleted and "...so we see the African tribesman, with his complete contempt for the truth, and his emphasis on brutality and savagery..."<ref>Hubbard, L. Ron, ''Scientology: Fundamentals of Thought''. Copenhagen: New Era Publications, 1997. ISBN 1900944979, p. 77</ref> is out of context. --Tilman 18:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

COFS seems to be blocked right now. I got curious and looked it up, and I might be able to enlighten you on this. The quote is wrong. It is not "African tribesman" but "primitive tribesman" with no qualification where this tribe might be. Then the full quote is "Self-created data is then not a bad thing. Neither is education. But one without the other, to hold it in some balance will bring about a no-game condition or a no-civilization. Just as individuals can be seen by observing nations, so we see the primitive tribesman, with his complete contempt for truth and his emphasis on brutality and savagery for others (but not himself) is a no-civilization." This quote is from a chapter called "Civilization and Savagery". The essence of this chapter is that the more education is prevented in a nation and the more self-created data (this is personal observation, i.e. primary sources) is prevented, the more savagery and the less civilization you get. Nothing about blacks or Africans or what have you. Just an example for people who have not been educated and some really good reasons why they should be educated. The quote is not only out of context but it is used to give an example for Hubbard writing about "colored people". Obviously - to follow the purpose of slandering Hubbard - the quote had to be falsified to fit the bill. By the way, the same falsification was done to the other quote. Allegedly Hubbard wrote: "Unlike the yellow and brown people, the white does not usually believe he can get attention from matter or objects. The yellow and brown believe for the most part ... that rocks, trees, walls, etc., can give them attention.". Now, this is false again. The actual book text says: "Unlike people devoted to an ancient spiritual heritage, those of more recent, largely Western, societies do not usually believe they can get attention from matter or objects. The former believe for the most part (and it is all a matter of consideration) that rocks, trees, walls, etc., can give them attention." The whole chapter, entitled "Identity and Attention", discusses how a game is made up. Actually the quotes are not even out of context, they actually do not even exist! Both quotes have been a) falsified and b) put in there to activate "blacks" against Hubbard. The motivation behind this and motivation of those keeping it in there by all means, is clearly opposite to the purpose of Misplaced Pages. I am happy that you did not fall for it. CSI LA 22:47, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

CSI LA, I am afraid you have made an understandable mistake. It is not as simple as "if I look in the first edition I can find of the book with that title and I find the text in a different form than it was quoted here, the person who quoted here falsified the quote." What is far more likely is that you are reading from an edition of the book other than the one referenced -- i.e., the edition in which you "checked" the quote was not Hubbard, L. Ron, Scientology: Fundamentals of Thought. Copenhagen: New Era Publications, 1997. ISBN 1900944979. It is simply a fact that despite the prohibitions against altering Hubbard's words, they have been altered, with different editions changing Hubbard's phrasings and sometimes leaving out inconvenient sections. For instance, let me show you the "tribesman" paragraph, complete, as it appears in my copy of Fundamentals:

Self-created data is, then, not a bad thing, neither is education, but one without the other to hold it in some balance will bring about a no-game condition or a no-civilization. Just as individuals can be seen, by observing nations, so we see the African tribesman, with his complete contempt for truth and his emphasis on brutality and savagery for others but not himself, is a no-civilization. And we see at the other extreme China, slavishly dedicated to ancient scholars, incapable of generating within herself sufficient rulers to continue, without bloodshed, a nation.

My copy, by the way, is Hubbard, L. Ron, Scientology: The Fundamentals of Thought. Los Angeles: Bridge Publications, 1997. ISBN 0-88404-503-X and the paragraph in question is in the middle of page 113. And here in the same copy are two paragraphs comparing the "white" to "yellow and brown people", which occupy roughly the bottom half of page 35 and the upper third of page 36:

Unlike yellow and brown people, the white does not usually believe he can get attention from matter or objects. The yellow and brown believe for the most part (and it is all a matter of consideration) that rocks, trees, walls, etc., can give them attention. The white man seldom believes this and so is likely to become anxious about people.

Thus the white saves people, prevents famine, flood, disease and revolution for people as the only purveyors of attention are scarce. The white goes further. He often believes that he can get attention only from whites and that yellow and brown people's attention is worthless. Thus the yellow and brown races are not very progressive, but, by and large, saner. And the white race is progressive but more frantic. The yellow and brown races do not understand white concern for "bad conditions" since what are a few million dead men? There are plenty of identities and there is plenty of attention, they think. The white can't understand them. Nor can they understand the white.

So while your mistake in thinking the quotes "do not even exist" is understandable... it is in fact a mistake, because the quotes do exist, even if they have been altered by the publishers into more acceptable forms for later editions. Which edition do you have? I think it might be good to note in the article that the quotes are not the same from edition to edition of the book, and that direct references to race such as "yellow and brown people" have been replaced with terms such as "people devoted to an ancient spiritual heritage". -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Am I happy that you can read books, Antaeus! Would you also be able to consider that YOUR EDITION might be altered from the original Hubbard? Just a thought. I have no books available but I AM SURE some other people here do. Misou 03:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Sure, Misou, I'm not only able to consider it but I already did consider it. If you had, you would have seen in a second, as I did, that it made no sense; if as CSI LA points out the effect of the racial terminology would be to "activate" the racial groups referred to against Hubbard, why would Bridge Publications do such a thing? Why would New Era Publications do such a thing? By the way, your "Am I happy that you can read books, Antaeus!" is a pretty clear personal attack and I'll thank you to refrain from them. -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Chill, please, I just switched this machine on and didn't want you to blow up right in the first minute. Well, good we are tracking, doesn't happen that often! However, taking dozens of Hubbard books, some thousand or more lectures and some million words, altogether being "Scientology" and then his behavior in real life and the fact that Isaac Hayes and some other colored people are Scientologists, I'd say that Hubbard was unlikely to be racist in any way. So the "quotes", whatever Hubbard actually said in the end, are still out of context, aren't they? Misou 03:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Your claims that you didn't want to start trouble ring very hollow, seeing how gratuitously you throw around comments designed to do nothing but. As for the quotes being "out of context", of course they are not. You might choose to believe that the evidence supports your preferred view of Hubbard, as "unlikely to be racist in any way." That does not mean that evidence which contradicts your preferred view, such as Hubbard's suggestion that "yellow and brown people" think "what are a few million dead men?" is "out of context". -- Antaeus Feldspar 04:11, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah, poison dripping off your teeth now again, cool! I am sure you like it better that way. However, this is not my "preferred view of Hubbard" but straight logic. But hey, I am open for new information anytime and if Hubbard - big man, right? - was racist, there must be PLENTY of stories about it. Misou 04:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

There is plenty of evidence that LRH was racist. Anyway, the example how offensive texts were polished now that scientology needs to recruit the people on whom Hubbard looked down, would be an interesting addition to Altered texts in Scientology doctrine.

Did I see anyway a reference to the actual edition in the Misou and CSI LA texts? I think I didn't, but I just went over the discussion text quickly. --Tilman 05:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

How do we distinguish this "straight logic" that proves Hubbard was not a racist from original research? Hubbard's own words as quoted here have every appearance of racism. He has generalized the attitudes of peoples based on racial characteristics. Now this may well have been the prevailing attitude of the day, but sure seems racist to my eyes. (All of this depends on the quoted passages really being written by Hubbard, but—if I understand correctly—they are in texts attributed to Hubbard. Unless someone can show that earlier texts did not use racial classifications and that any changes came from someone other than Hubbard, it seems sensible to assume that these are indeed Hubbard's writings.) Phiwum 16:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Phiwum, based on what are you are trying to attribute racial statements to Hubbard? The real quotes are not containing such statements. Further, the context in which the real quotes are done have no political meaning nor do they instruct to think or treat specific races in one way or the other. Not only are the used quotes a fake and slander attack on Hubbard but they also are irrelevant for a Misplaced Pages article on him. There are literally millions of words available to be quoted and just by probability you most likely could "prove" anything. I am seeking agreement that quotes are not used at all, just because of that, and because it is actions that mark a man's life and not words. The book in question here has been written first in 1956 and revised by L. Ron Hubbard several times as his research went on until the 1980s, so newer data went in and obsolete data went out. CSI LA 17:59, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

CSI LA, I'm very disappointed in you. You should know, if you read the comments in this very section that were addressed directly to you, that what you are telling Phiwum now is false. The quotes about the "African tribesman" and the difference between "the white" and the "yellow and brown people" are "real quotes". They are found in the official publications of Hubbard's books by both Bridge Publications and New Era Publications. They are not "a fake and slander attack", they are a true reflection that right up until at least 1997 Hubbard's official publishers were offering those clearly racial words as Hubbard's own words. The notion that they should be regarded as no longer Hubbard's words because the book was "revised by L. Ron Hubbard several times as his research went on" is a red herring; it obviously wasn't the man who "dropped the body" in 1986 who removed those racial terms sometime after 1997. Now, I gave you the benefit of the doubt that perhaps you did not know that just because your edition of Fundamentals is missing those racial references does not mean that no edition of Fundamentals has those racial references. But you are still referring to "the real quotes" as if you didn't now know that those quotes are found in official editions of the book in question. Now I suggested that if you were to provide information on the edition you are citing from that does not have these racial references, we could include in the article that some editions do refer to "the white" and to the "yellow and brown people" and to the "African tribesman" and that some editions substitute terminology less offensive to modern sensibilities. But we're not going to remove information which is correctly and completely cited to a given edition because someone else says they didn't find that same text while looking in a different edition, especially when they won't say what that different edition was. -- Antaeus Feldspar 19:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

CSI LA, my assumptions were explicit. Others have quoted a text authored by Hubbard. Do you have evidence that he did not write those words? If not, we have fairly strong prima facie evidence that he did write those words (assuming that no one is lying). Now, I don't want to claim anything so strong as "Hubbard is a racist", although my previous post may have suggested it. But I do say that the quoted passages contain what we may reasonably call racism. Furthermore, I do not agree that the fact that he was prolific suffices to explain those passages. They were quoted fairly extensively and are not a mere aside likely to be misinterpreted. Instead, they very strongly suggest that Hubbard was attributing prevailing opinions to the different races. And even if Hubbard later revised his views (contrary to what Antaeus writes), his earlier views (and subsequent revisions) may certainly be included in an encyclopedia article. The idea that we should refrain from quoting Hubbard because quotes can be misleading is ludicrous. We have no clearer indication of a man's opinions than what he said and wrote. We must be careful not to take a misleading excerpt out of context, of course, but that does not seem to be the case here. (For what it's worth: I don't have a dog in this fight. Prior to seeing this discussion, I had no opinion or interest on whether Hubbard had uttered racist remarks. Now I have an opinion but not much interest.) Phiwum 20:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks much, Prof. Both quotes are being used to underline some thesis that Hubbard had some consideration in skin color. My copy of the book is an inherited 1976 version and does talk about the "colors" of people. The context is however a metaphoric one, "yellow" being used for Asian cultural heritage, "brown" for African cultural heritage and "white" for "The Western" way of civilization, as it was understood in 1954 (or 1976 for that matter). Those here trying to knit a racism patter out of that are just poor propagandists with an agenda outside of Misplaced Pages. COFS 23:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Why would you want to lay words in my mouth which I did not say? Curious. Maybe so you can complain along about hot air. Or to cover up that you have no full concept on the development of Scientology, its literature and founder. You seem to be part of the "alternative" Scientology scene which uses altered materials. I am just guessing, because what you state does not make sense. What is still unexplained is why you want to smear L. Ron Hubbard with altered quotes. He was nowhere near a racist attitude can be seen in what he actually did (and in many other quotes, like Ability Mag 179, 20 March 1966, ""Unless a large and effective effort is made to halt man's decline, this planet will revert to barren desert. Certainly, with his bombs, racism and inhumanities, he is trying hard enough." or the foundation and support of CCHR). Even the Creed of Scientology of 1954 excludes anything coming even close to racism. You know better than you say. I am not going to continue the discussion on why your alleged quote is different to mine (though I will get as many editions as possible soon). This one started out with why those quotes were put there out of context. The answer is: to smear Hubbard, to make him appear something he wasn't. The response to that is: delete. CSI LA 20:33, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. Antaeus, why can't you stop interfering in other people's conversations? Now you frightened off Phiwum from participating in this and we miss a fresh external look by a philo Prof. COFS 20:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I have not been frightened off by Antaeus. It has, after all, been only a few hours since my last contribution. Frankly, I find the White/Yellow/Brown remarks more indicative of racism than you do, but why not let his words speak for themselves? Mention the original quotes and mention that the text has changed some time after his death (from what I hear).

For what it is worth, I am not a professor. Merely an adjunct. The custodial staff has seniority over me. Phiwum 00:41, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh mein Gott, der Tilman ist aufgestanden. You dare to present a knucklehead like Touretzky as a source? You might want to spill some cold water in your face as you must be dreaming. Hey, und noch was, what is the "Misou Text"? Misou 05:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

You may want to reconsider the use of language like poison dripping off your teeth now again, knucklehead like Touretzky (he is, after all, a professor with a PhD - and if you had looked further, you would know that the work was not written by him, he is only hosting it), You might want to spill some cold water in your face as you must be dreaming - this is not helpful in an environment where we have to work together. Please read WP:WQ. With "Misou Text" I meant your contribution here. So, when was your edition published? Oops, I see that you wrote I have no books available so I shouldn't have asked. Btw, here is another source for the racist text: --Tilman 16:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Tilman, they use the Misplaced Pages quotes in there. This is Goebbels tactics ("If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."). Stop that and participate in the discussion if you can, thank you. CSI LA 17:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

According to Google, Oh mein Gott, der Tilman ist aufgestanden means "Oh my God, the Tilman rose.", Misou is that supposed to be a Nazi reference? (Or to Tilman did Google screw this up somehow?)

CSI LA ...This is Goebbels tactics... is definitely one though. Seriously you make yourself look like a total jackass when you bait a guy from Germany for being a Nazi, but probably get offended when someone calls Scientology a cult. He may have a website highly critical of Scientology elsewhere on the internet, but he is willing to at least attempt leaving that outside Misplaced Pages when he deals with Scientologists here. If you feel he is insulting you, here are your options. Otherwise you should consider apologizing to him for the "...Goebbels tactics..." statement.

The problem with L. Ron Hubbard is that as a human being he had an incredible amount of flaws, not the least of which was at best a bad memory of his life at worst his bald faced lies about it. Worse was his failure to acknowledge that fact, even when presented with reality. If Scientology does work his actions have done almost as much to keep it down as make it popular. In this article it's twice as bad for Scientology because Hubbard is the focus, and the CoS is looked at in the context of his whole life. Example: Hubbard - Scientology. He's bound to come off better when mentioned on the Scientology article if it does indeed work. Example: Scientology - Hubbard

To put it another way, I'm not editing in the same capacity there as I am here nor do I plan to. I can prove Hubbard was full of crap about himself, he wrote enough of it in the face of the truth to make that obvious. I can't disprove Xenu(see below) anymore than I can Jesus Christ, Buddah, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. We're only discussing the man, not the per se religion. (Or whatever you really believe, I mean no insult but you do keep things secret and Xenu is the closest thing to a deity mentioned in the backstory) Anynobody 12:03, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem with L. Ron Hubbard is that as a human being he had an incredible amount of flaws - See Anynobody, you are hopelessly one-sided. Hubbard had a few flaws, that is true but he also had a lot of incredibly good qualities and those qualities are attested to a lot more frequently that his flaws. Let me tell you what I see as his biggest "flaw" in his military career. Just his military career. Hubbard "didn't know his place". He did not know how to be a "subordinate" in the military if being a subordinate means taking just so much responsibility and no more. That was hard for Hubbard. He could not see something that he thought he could handle and say "not my job". That is the common thread throughout the problems he had in the military - not a good subordinate. A loose cannon, if you will. That is how the militay would look at him. He would say he was a damn good cannon. If you can look at all the military records of Hubbard in a neutral but not unsympathetic eye rather than a critical eye you get a real picture of the man. If you also have any experience with the tremendous affection and respect he enjoined in anyone that met him or worked with him it becomes even more clear. Just look at those letters of recommendation to his appointment he received. But we don't mention much of those, do we? They do not exactly fit in with the agenda do they? --Justanother 01:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

New comment: I feel that Justanother is misrepresenting my statement by quoting only part of a sentence, here is the rest: "...not the least of which was at best a bad memory of his life at worst his bald faced lies about it." I'm saying he was human, and tended to paint an inaccurate picture of his life. Though I think he was a liar, if evidence were shown that he had some kind of psychiatric condition that caused it I'd change my opinion. Anynobody 23:36, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I've actually come to that conclusion based on his own writings, several primary sources, and the ever changing biography the CoS puts out. Here are a few examples of the info which convinced me that Hubbard was a liar, Justanother: Sourced text from article:

1. Hubbard became the protegé of "Old Tom, a Blackfoot Indian medicine man ... passe on much of the tribal lore to his young friend" and that at the age of six, he was "honored with the status of blood brother of the Blackfeet in a ceremony ". Blackfeet historian Hugh Dempsey has commented that the act of blood brotherhood was "never done among the Blackfeet",
2. Church biographies routinely state that he was "the nation's youngest Eagle Scout." According to the Boy Scouts of America, however, at the time they only kept an alphabetical record of Eagle Scouts, with no reference to their ages — thus there was no way of telling who was the youngest.

Off Misplaced Pages info:

1. Documents on Wikimedia Commons
2. Flash of 5 inch guns He said his eyes were burned by the flash of a 5 inch gun firing. If he was standing close enough to be burned by the flash, the concussion would have probably killed him.
3. Document 1
4. Document 2
5. Reply to Document 2
6. Document 3
7. Document 3-2
8. Document 3-3

With all due respect, you are only citing Scientology sources for his "exploits" and those have changed as previous ones proved inaccurate or outright lies. Frankly the difference between us is that if one can find proof from a neutral source that he WAS everything he said he was I might change my opinion. You will probably never change your opinion of him no matter what sources can be found, since you seem to believe people who don't believe everything he said are editing here under an agenda. I guess you don't realize it, but you are actually the one who is editing from a one sided view and editing with an agenda. Point our recent edit counts:Justanother Anynobody. I've noticed that it takes a much longer time and more edits to get anything done on a Scientology related page not inline with the views of the CoS no matter how well sourced. Anynobody 03:07, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

All due respect, AN, but you are simply parroting no-nothing critic lines. I am not parroting official CoS lines at all and my opinion of his military career is based on the same documents that you looked at and some you appear to have ignored and interviews and statements of non-critics that you, in your one-sided view, discount or don't bother looking at. And for trash like the Eagle Scout claim "debunk". Do you know what that piece of critic rubbish is based on? A letter from some guy saying that 80 years ago they did not keep records of the youngest scout. What in the world does that have to do with anything?? Even assuming he is correct, which he might not be. Either Hubbard was the youngest or he was not and if he was not then certainly someone else was. Maybe he was told at the time that he was and maybe the person doing the telling was in a position to know and was correct. But we are not going to know that now but we can sure come up with some misapplication of logic to make him out a liar, can't we? What a bunch of trash. --Justanother 03:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Let's assume you are right, there are a few things I'd need some help understanding based on direct knowledge:

• Eagle scout: I was a Boy Scout myself and it's amazing that they didn't mention such an honor when discussing the history of Eagle scouts in general. What was the BSA's agenda against Hubbard?

• Military: As I said, Hubbard got into Naval Intelligence (I was the one who mentioned that he skipped Ensign). He didn't even make it to his first assignment and obviously didn't stay in touch with the ONI while in Australia. (If he had, they would not have sanctioned the crap he pulled there as they would certainly have had something else for him to do.) Once he made a big enough nuisance of himself he was sent back to the states.

• • If the ONI still wanted him, his next assignment would not have been the YP-422. He couldn't complete that assignment either, going outside the Chain of Command is frowned upon to say the least (as he should have learned from his experience down under). Doing it because you think your C.O. made a bad order is forbidden (unless of course it was a bad order like a war crime or something. No war crimes occurred in Boston. (The irony is what I imagine Hubbard's reaction would have been had one of his subordinates gone over him for a ruling.)

• • If the country hadn't been at war, two incidents like these would have led to a discharge. Since this was World War 2 the Navy gave him one more chance to prove his leadership ability, PC-815. Of the sub fiasco, Hubbard makes it sound like the only ships effectively fighting the "battle" were his and the SC he directed with the ship's whistle. Understanding that at the time, the IJN didn't have submarines patrolling there it sounds like the other ships either didn't hear the supposed screw noise Hubbard's ship did or they heard it and didn't think it sounded like a sub. What's the Navy's agenda against him?

• • The whole Mexican island affair was the low water mark of his service. Being relieved and given a letter of admonition can not be seen as an achievement in the good sense. Are you saying it could?

There are other questions of course, but these will suffice for a start. Anynobody 03:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Brown and yellow

Just to inject a bit of context here. Hubbard was talking about animism; the concept that there is a spiritual nature to what we in the west (yes, us "whites") call "inanimate objects". African ("brown"), American Indian ("red", though LRH does not mention them), and Asian ("yellow") races often hold beliefs that are animistic; e.g. Shinto or shamanism ("It could be said that shamans are the experts employed by animists or animist communities.") It was Ron's belief that the brown and yellow therefore take a different view of human life than the whites. He does not say that because of their race, he says it because of their beliefs. Not race. Beliefs. If you read the quote, you see that he considers the brown and yellow races "saner" than the white. So if he was a racist then I guess he was anti-white?? Now for my opinion. Do you know how much of our current GNP goes to "health care"; i.e. prolonging life. I can see a future where all activity is directed at health care to support overpriced drugs and treatments to prolong life with all wealth concentrated in drug companies, "health care" providers, and insurance companies (wait, I think we are almost there already.) Why does our society have to spend so much on prolonging life? Two reasons, IMO. 1) The current trend toward materialism and atheism attach inordinate importance to eking out another day of life and 2) "whites" believe that they exist in a bubble disconnected from the inanimate universe, animals and plants, and even other races of man. The latter point is what LRH was addressing. So rather than talk about what he was addressing, we want to ignore that and nanny nanny boo boo, he did not use PC terminology in a pre-PC age. And why do we do that? Because, as another said - "The incorrect and counterproductive consideration that seems to pervade the community is this: Scientology is not a subject - it is instead controversy about a pseudo subject." --Justanother 18:07, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I should clarify that LRH was not "talking about animism", he was talking about Scientology; have-waste, scarcity-abundance, attention; Scientology stuff as in the subject of Scientology as opposed to the invented "controversies" about Scientology. But the spiritual beliefs of the non-white races that he is referring to fall under what we might term animism. --Justanother 20:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Please don't confuse Scientology Technology with earlier practices, eh.... COFS 20:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

LRH was relating the animistic beliefs of the non-white races to Scientology theory. Rather than try to talk about Scientology theory our nanny nanny boo boo critics want to invent a controversy called "Ron the Racist". The non-whites were not practicing Scientology; they were practicing animism. --Justanother 20:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Right. The book article is titled "Identity and Attention". Antaeus tries to make it look like it would be about "Races and Politics" or similar. But reading the article again I am not wondering anymore. Let's apply this to the Wiki IDs here: "One 'needs' an identity to play the game, as covered later, but mainly to 'get attention'." Does that explain why he interferes in other people's conversation? CSI LA 21:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Need for game, I get it. No "private" life. That's sad. COFS 21:11, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Personal attacks are unneeded, uncalled for, reflect badly on all, can get you blocked, and will minimize your effectiveness here. My suggestion; add as much material as you remove and (based on my own errors) don't get personal, don't get angry. --Justanother 21:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

By add as much material as you remove I do not mean necessarily in the Scn articles although that is fine and there is lots that can be added. I mean edit also in other, non-controversial areas. --Justanother 21:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, got it. You must have gone through something here. COFS 21:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Cool. I would respond with "I could write a book" but I think that I already have - it is just spread all over wikipedia. Perhaps I will gather it up. --Justanother 21:26, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I've seen that. I started on the Scn article and FZ (could not resist). COFS 23:59, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that sensible people of good will could disagree on whether Hubbard's writing was racist or not. For my money, claiming that yellow and brown men do not understand concern over a few million dead is pretty blatantly insulting, but I can believe that others don't interpret this in a racist manner. Seems to me that we should accept the following compromise: if there is a reliable source that cites this passage as evidence of racism, we may include the passage and the evaluation (and any relevant rejoinders). By including the quotation and also perhaps noting that it was rewritten later (after Hubbard's death?), the reader may draw his own conclusions. If there is no source that discusses this quote with regards to racism, then this passage does not belong in a discussion of alleged racism in Hubbard's work, since including it would require original interpretation, i.e., OR. Phiwum 16:23, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Sounds feasible. But you got one thing very wrong (sorry), there is no approval of a "few million dead" anywhere in this quote nor in its meaning. This is an ill-intended interpretation of something completely different, namely the varying viewpoints on life in Africa (metaphorically indicated as "brown"), Asia ("yellow") and the Western World ("white"). In a culture beliefing that there will be another life of many after one's death, dying is seen less important than in a culture which teaches that there is only one life. There is not much indication how Hubbard validates or invalidates such beliefs. But he says (and this is part of the quote): "Thus the yellow and brown races are not very progressive, but, by and large, saner.". "Saner" in a Scientology context is always a plus and to be supported. Now, the whole argument here is whether "race" is used interchangeably for culture/tradition etc. This text was written in 1954, long before Martin Luther King and globalization and the use of "race" as a word had not evolved into having political connotations to it. Misplaced Pages provides some definitions for "race" which consider the fact that the word also has a meaning of "traditional group, social group, geographical group" etc.. I like your proposal though. Knowing Hubbard and Scientology for a while I heavily doubt that there is such WP:RS on "racism" though. COFS 17:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

My interpretation of the quote is largely irrelevant to what I suggested, so I will not bother replying to the "few million dead" part. Let us stick to the bits relevant to the article. For my part, sorry that I included any discussion of whether I found the passage racist or not, since my opinion doesn't matter. As far as your comment about Hubbard and racism, let us see what other editors suggest as relevant sources. Phiwum 18:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Use of the "outing" site, "truth"aboutscientology - Please discuss at Catherine Bell

Please discuss in one place at Talk:Catherine Bell#Scientology Status of Catherine Bell. Thanks --Justanother 04:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Vandal 71.171.216.249

NetRange: 71.160.0.0 - 71.191.255.255 CIDR: 71.160.0.0/11 NetName: VIS-BLOCK NetHandle: NET-71-160-0-0-1 Parent: NET-71-0-0-0-0 NetType: Direct Allocation NameServer: NS1.BELLATLANTIC.NET NameServer: NS2.BELLATLANTIC.NET NameServer: NS2.VERIZON.NET NameServer: NS4.VERIZON.NET Comment: RegDate: 2005-06-01 Updated: 2006-12-29

OrgAbuseHandle: VISAB-ARIN OrgAbuseName: VIS Abuse OrgAbusePhone: +1-214-513-6711 OrgAbuseEmail: abuse@verizon.net

Abuse email sent. COFS 17:08, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Can this be cited?

(Among occultists today, it is widely accepted that Hubbard derived a large part of 'Dianetics' from Golden Dawn occult ideas such as the Holy Guardian Angel.)

Here is the only citation needed tag I found in the article. Can this be cited? Does anyone know where to find a citation for this?? Anynobody 10:51, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

You might have to take a poll of occultists. :-) Steve Dufour 12:10, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Since nobody was able to cite this, I've removed it: (Among occultists today, it is widely accepted that Hubbard derived a large part of 'Dianetics' from Golden Dawn occult ideas such as the Holy Guardian Angel.) Anynobody 23:52, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I think it's likely true or close to true, but without a source, it doesn't belong there. By "close to true", I suspect that Ordo Templi Orientis rather than the Golden Dawn is more likely as an influence; Jack Parsons was OTO, not GD. --FOo 02:30, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I hadn't heard much about the specifics of Jack Parsons occult side; I did know of him from his JPL accomplishments. I read a bit about him after you made your post, and I think you are most likely right about Ordo Templi Orientis "inspiring" Hubbard. If we could find a citation I wouldn't mind adding it back in, corrected of course.

I didn't realize he was telling people that "Navy Intelligence" sent him to break up the group, I must say I found that claim hilarious. What I found so funny was not his claim to Naval Intelligence , but that his claim that the ONI gives a crap about cults: "Join the Navy, see the world, learn new things, and battle cults!" At that time they would have been busy trying to learn as much as possible about the Soviet fleet. Anynobody 02:55, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

He knew Jack Parsons before the war. I doubt Parsons' occult interests were that secret and if the navy cared that much, they could have gotten his security clearances pulled. AndroidCat 03:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

There have been a number of books about Parsons published recently; I haven't had time to get my hands on any of them, unfortunately. One of them might have some notes on Hubbard and Parsons' relationship, and possibly in less overwrought terms than some of the literature on Hubbard tends to use. --FOo 04:05, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Cat, what's your source for Hubbard knowing Parsons before the war? The letter that Parsons wrote to Crowley saying that Sara "has transferred her sexual affection to Ron" also says that Parsons only met Hubbard "about three months ago", though he described Hubbard as "a writer and explorer of whom I had known for some time". While there seem to be some weird discrepancies about just when that letter was written, Parsons didn't start up with Sara until after his wife Helen left him in 1944, so it doesn't seem possible that three months previous to that letter was before the war. -- Antaeus Feldspar 07:18, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

You might want to try the marvellously-titled "Sex and Rockets: The Occult World of Jack Parsons" by John Carter and Robert Anton Wilson. It's been a while since I read it, but I recall it has a fairly detailed account of Hubbard's involvement with Parsons. -- ChrisO 07:41, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

My source certainly can't be cited since it's fiction (Rocket to the Morgue, Anthony Boucher, 1942), but Hubbard, Parsons, Heinlein and a host of other writers and members of the Mañana Literary Society are used as characters in the book, with many in-jokes. It is possible that Boucher (pen name) knew both Hubbard and Parsons, and they hadn't bumped into each other yet, but I doubt it. The book is an otherwise excellent snapshot of that circle and pulp writing at the time. If there are any non-fiction accounts of the Mañana Literary Society and the LA writer/fan scene at the time, there might be some confirmation. If, *sigh*. AndroidCat 14:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Jon Atack says pretty specifically (p. 90 of Blue Sky) that "Hubbard met Jack Parsons while on convalescent leave in Los Angeles, in August 1945". What previous opportunities might they have had to meet? If I remember rightly, most of Hubbard's on-shore time was spent in Massachusetts, Florida and Oregon. Hubbard was certainly involved to some extent in the pre-war LA writers' scene, though most of his focus was on his publishers in NY, but that would surely have been too early for Parsons to have come into the frame. -- ChrisO 23:42, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Problems with French conviction "dropped" cite

Last night 00:07, Misou added this, starting with "(→Legal difficulties and life on the high seas - found first one (hooray to online databases))":

In 1978, as part of a case against three French Scientologists Hubbard was convicted for "making fraudulent promises" and sentenced to four years in jail and a 35,000₣ fine by a French court. Hubbard - who had not been defended in the trial at all and had not been in the country during the whole time - refused to serve his jail time or pay his fine. The case was appealed later - in 1980 - with all fraud charges being dropped.<ref>Sunday Star (Toronto), 2 March 1980: "Scientology gets nod from court. Paris (Reuter) - The Paris Appeal Court has recognized the U.S.-based Church of Scientology as a religion and cleared a former leader of its French branch of fraud.". Also in International Herald Tribune, 3 March 1980</ref>

The problem is that the only leader of the French branch whose conviction was discharged 1980-02-29 was Georges Andreu, not Hubbard. The other three convictions, including Hubbard's, were confirmed. (Andreu's conviction was discharged mainly due to his being 22 when named president of Scientology in France and merely a subordinate.) The claim that the "Paris Appeal Court has recognized the U.S.-based Church of Scientology as a religion" also seems very doubtful, but I haven't dug into that yet.

The mention of an online database (certainly not the Toronto Star's, which only goes back to 1985) and at least one error of fact make me question this reference. AndroidCat 15:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

From ProQuest database, The Globe and Mail, March 1st, 1980, "Scientology called religion by Paris court": "The Paris Appeal Court yesterday recognized the Church of Scientology as a religion because it embraces both a faith and a community and cleared a former leader of the movement of fraud. Georges Andreu, formerly president of the sect in France, and three other leaders of the church, including its U. S. founder Ron Hubbard, received fines and suspended prison sentences a year ago after the movement was accused of enticing people to join by making fraudulent promises. Mr Andreu was the only one of the four to appeal." Hubbard didn't appeal, thus he wasn't cleared. Raymond Hill 16:08, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Good to know that you have access to the real stuff. I'll keep that in mind 'cause I plan to verify each line of this smear piece called article and might need your help. Could you find the one on the retrial of the case in 1981? When the other was acquitted? Misou 21:04, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Whereas you're making edits and ref'ing them without the "real stuff"? The part about him being cleared on fraud will have to go until someone can find a valid reference for it. AndroidCat 00:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Which is not going to you, I guess, as you are not looking for that side of the story, right? Misou 01:48, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Please try to be WP:CIVIL. AndroidCat 01:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, please, assume good faith. Raymond Hill 03:06, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Another ref problem with Hubbard's mother's name Ledora/Dora: "Biography issued 7 April 1977 by Liz Gablehouse". How can anyone verify that rather sparse entry? Since she was a Sea Org member, I assume that this was issued by CoS. Was it actually published in any real sense? As well, although this is a minor detail, CoS's accounts of Hubbard's life haven't been terrible accurate. Bare Faced Messiah uses Ledora. AndroidCat 01:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Another problem with your research capabilities. Good ol' Lerma has it sitting on his site. But don't cry, I'll get a scanner soon. Misou 02:43, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:External links on page

Justanother, would you please explain why the links you propose removing violate the guideline Misplaced Pages:External links? Anynobody 03:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

US Naval Hospital stay

Anynobody, you claim the following: The remainder of Hubbard's wartime service was spent ashore in the continental United States. He was mustered out of the active service list in late 1945 and continued to draw disability pay for arthritis, bursitis, and conjunctivitis for years afterwards, long after he claimed to have discovered the secret of how to cure these ailments.

The "source" for all of that is "reader's digest". Now, some years ago I challenged the statements about Hubbard's disabilities and what I could get were some documents from U.S. Naval Hospital, for example of 1 Dec 45, L.D. Morgan Cmdr. USNR writing a medical report on Hubbard, incl. "ulcer", "eyesight failing" and later "getting worse", and "lame in right hip", "infection in bone" (not joint, meaning bursitis). I can't find that in your report but mine is lacking anything about "arthritis, bursitis" while the eyesight thing might be the "conjunctivitis" you have there. Any idea why that is? Misou 21:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC) PS: Good news! My flatbed scanner is supposed to arrive tomorrow. Cross fingers that I am back home by then. Misou 21:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry I missed this post, I've got some documents from his time in the hospital. Not sure the info you're referring to is mine but I think I saw something about "arthritis, bursitis" in the docs. (Remember, I didn't write the original military career section. For example the mistake with the quote you pointed out before, I didn't notice the missing word so I worked around what was there already). Anynobody 02:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Putting article in time sequence

I want to put the article in time sequence and started with the family life parts. This one is located in the "controversy" section and might be taken out from there. What I am missing is the year LRH married Northrup and some details around that. I am planning to fix that somewhen later today or tomorrow. Any protests or considerations? COFS 23:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, as it is now it is chronologically all over the place. The article should start at his birth and end with his death (excluding links, references, lead, etc.). Rather than a controversy section, the info should be integrated into the rest of the text. Anynobody 00:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that is how I can think best as well but for one thing which is his family life. It will always stick out, in the middle of "Writer" or "Dianetics" etc. So I propose to put the whole family story at the end of Education to run through to his death. Then have separate paragraphs for military, fiction writer, Dianetics, Scientology. The latter is the longest part and with the most gaps so far (none of the vessel trips is on there, nothing about Rhodesia and so on which was all in the context of Scientology, its organizations etc). And let's save the disagreements until the structure is clear, ok? COFS 01:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Another bad reference

In later research the Sunday Times in UK (1969) found out that Hubbard's contact to O.T.O. had been an intelligence operation for the U.S. Government to prevent leaks of confidential information to O.T.O. (midst of the Cold War Parsons was working as a solid fuel rocket scientist in California)<ref>Sunday times "Scientology: New Light on Crowley", 28 December 1969, (Hubbard) "...went to life at the house and investigated the black magic rites and the general situation ... . Parsons wrote to Crowley in England about Hubbard. Crowley "The Beast 666" evidently detected an enemy and warned Parsons. This is all proven by the correspondence unearthed by the Sunday Times. Hubbard's mission was successful ... . The black magic group was dispersed ... ."]</ref>

COFS, I'm sure you know very well that was a statement printed as is from the Church of Scientology, not part of any research by The Sunday Times, and that they did not retract their previous story of 5 October 1969, SCIENTOLOGY: Revealed for the first time. . . The odd beginning of Ron Hubbard's career. AndroidCat 00:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

What I know is that they published this article and retracted their false report. Rv'ing the whole restructuring - which did not change the content but rather wikified/adjusted the article to the Scientology main article - is rather rude and not appropriate. At least not on the grounds of your disagreement that a newspaper printed an article which you did not like. I have dozens of those and you would not care either. COFS 01:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, there was no retraction. In any event, it was a statement from the Church of Scientology. I believe you knew this, but misrepresented it anyway. AndroidCat 01:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The article does not say that. To the contrary, it talks about the "the correspondence unearthed by the Sunday Times" (see above). I bet that this material came from the Church that time whose legal department might have received it from FOIA documents or any other source. But the Sunday Times made it their own, verified it and printed it as their own. That makes it valid as a source. Equal rights, eh? COFS 01:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

You bet? Strange how no one else's FOIA requests have unearthed a trace of it—even after Hubbard was dead and it was possible to do those FOIA request that you've ORed. For starters, A Piece of Blue Sky talks about the circumstances of this printing. I'm sure that I'll find other references for this. AndroidCat 02:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

AndroidCat, I haven't been impressed yet by your presentations of WP:RS - take a bite from Anynobody's military research - but it is never too late to approach this without too much criticism. Good luck hunting, I am very curious what you find out. COFS 02:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, COFS when I said the Navy didn't care about cults I wasn't joking. IF there was a security issue concerning espionage, that would've fallen under the jurisdiction of the FBI's counter-intelligence division. Anynobody 01:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I get you. As the story goes Parsons was a solid fuel rocket engineer working on military projects and whoever (ONI? FBI?) feared that Crowley could send them a rocket, so to say. I would be concerned too, especially right after WWII and in the beginning of the Cold War the insecurity must have been high. This is not really an espionage issue but more public safety (they didn't know about AUM, but with a little imagination...). LRH had a FBI ID at some point in the 1940/50s. I forget the date on it but maybe I can find it (he will tell some anecdotes about that in several lectures later). COFS 02:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Call for COFS to be WP:CIVIL

Calling my justified roll-back to before a misrepestent source was used "vandalism" is un-WP:CIVIL. You may disagree with it, but review WP:Vandalism and please don't use that term again. AndroidCat 01:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Your are fishing for dirty laundry and that is not OK, because it makes you blind. Check the diff. I reverted from actual vandalism which said: "At the age pf 17, Hubbard fell out of the top of a tree while playing a game of Chicken and hit is head, thus leading to his idiotic religion Scientology." Unless you think this is well sourced and really verifiable information, I would say this fits the bill for WP:VANDAL. COFS 01:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, you're right. I apologise. AndroidCat 02:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

1. ^ Atack, Jon (1990). A Piece of Blue Sky. New York, NY: Carol Publishing Group. ISBN 0-8184-0499-X.
2. Battlefield Earth home page
3. Hubbard, L. Ron. "Pulpateer". Church of Scientology International. Retrieved 2006-07-26.
4. L. Ron Hubbard Site (accessed 4/15/06)
5. EG, differences in editions of What is Scientology? noted by Tom Voltz in his book Scientology With(out) an End, pages 58-59.
6. Corydon, Bent L. Ron Hubbard: Messiah or Madman (free online version) also by Barricade Books; Revised edition (25 July, 1992) ISBN 0-942637-57-7
7. Miller, Russell Bare-faced messiah: The true story of L. Ron Hubbard (free online version) also by publisher M. Joseph (1987) ISBN 0-7181-2764-1
8. Re: B & G (Minors) (Custody), Delivered in the High Court (Family Division), London, 23 July 1984; judgement transcript available on-line via HolySmoke.org and Xenu.net
9. Black's Law Dictionary p. 967 (5th ed. 1979).

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