Misplaced Pages

:Articles for deletion/Ryan Wesley Routh: Difference between revisions - Misplaced Pages

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
< Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 23:04, 16 September 2024 editHAL333 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users40,602 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit Revision as of 23:17, 16 September 2024 edit undoLocke Cole (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers18,894 edits →Ryan Wesley Routh: ReplyTag: ReplyNext edit →
Line 121: Line 121:
:: Another similar situation is Michael Steven Sandford (]), who also does not have a separate article. ] (]) 21:11, 16 September 2024 (UTC) :: Another similar situation is Michael Steven Sandford (]), who also does not have a separate article. ] (]) 21:11, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
:::Meaningless examples, please see ]. I could just as easily bring up ] from the ] or ] from the ]: neither of whom injured a president. Unlike you, I was citing Misplaced Pages policy, specifically condition 3 of ]. Routh's role was 1) substantial and 2) well-documented in RS. ~ ]] 23:03, 16 September 2024 (UTC) :::Meaningless examples, please see ]. I could just as easily bring up ] from the ] or ] from the ]: neither of whom injured a president. Unlike you, I was citing Misplaced Pages policy, specifically condition 3 of ]. Routh's role was 1) substantial and 2) well-documented in RS. ~ ]] 23:03, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
::::@] You understand that ] applies to ''your example'' of John Hinckley Jr., right? Though I agree with Natg that Hinckley isn't in the same category as Routh appears to be. As far as conditions are concerned, Routh's role may have been "substantial" in the context of the "apparent" attempted assassination, but there's an {{tqq|or}} there that you seem to be missing, and that's {{tqq|the event is not significant}}, and this one clearly is borderline right now given nothing happened (nobody was hurt or injured, and one Secret Service agent fired his weapon). Being well-documented in RS is not sufficient enough to justify a separate article. —] • ] • ] 23:17, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
* '''Keep''' - There are many many many reliable covering Routh and diving into his life. He certainly passes ]. ] (]) 21:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC) * '''Keep''' - There are many many many reliable covering Routh and diving into his life. He certainly passes ]. ] (]) 21:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
* '''Weak Keep''' — at least for now, per ].--<span style='color: darkblue;text-shadow:gray 0.3em 0.3em 0.1em; class=texhtml'>Surv1v4l1st</span> <sup><span style="font-size:7px">╠]║]╣</span></sup> 21:53, 16 September 2024 (UTC) * '''Weak Keep''' — at least for now, per ].--<span style='color: darkblue;text-shadow:gray 0.3em 0.3em 0.1em; class=texhtml'>Surv1v4l1st</span> <sup><span style="font-size:7px">╠]║]╣</span></sup> 21:53, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Revision as of 23:17, 16 September 2024

Ryan Wesley Routh

New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

Ryan Wesley Routh (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Not a voteIf you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Misplaced Pages contributors. Misplaced Pages has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.

However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end.

Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts: {{subst:spa|username}}; suspected canvassed users: {{subst:canvassed|username}}; accounts blocked for sockpuppetry: {{subst:csm|username}} or {{subst:csp|username}}.

WP:BLP1E. Only notable for the shooting, and unlike Thomas Matthew Crooks, who actually injured Trump during the attempt, Routh did not even shoot close to Trump (sources have said he was 300-500 yards away). Even though the FBI has said this is an assassination attempt, very little is known about the suspect at this time. MarioProtIV (/contribs) 03:56, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

An automatic firearm is not a weapon of mass destruction, despite how the media spins it. It was not what Bush was searching for in Iraq, since there are literal tonnes of AKs there. Thus the WMD issue is a non-starter, so not relevant to notablity -- 64.229.88.34 (talk) 05:16, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
He was charged with "carrying a concealed weapon and possession of a weapon of mass destruction" . David O. Johnson (talk) 05:27, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
He had a machine gun, which he did not actually use, not a nuclear bomb or similar which is what most people think of as a WMD.--A bit iffy (talk) 06:14, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
He was convicted of that same charge.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/5-things-apparent-assassination-attempt-trump-golf-courses-113712979 David O. Johnson (talk) 06:19, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Owning an AK-47 does not in any way lend itself to establishing notability. This is Florida. If I had a nickel for everyone down here who owns a military style assault rifle, I could stop buying lottery tickets. -Ad Orientem (talk) 06:22, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
For this reason I believe it is best to temporarily delete (or to draftify incase of reinstation) as this accusation is the only reason he is notable enough to be considered for his own article, and even then the notability is being debated above.
WP:BLPCRIME shouldn't be ignored just because this is a high profile case, and I am frankly a bit concerned that not a single person has even mentioned this guideline in the entire discussion . Floine (talk) 10:25, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Keep for now, for the simple reason that there are independent global and third-party sources about him that tell and delve into his life and story. It is not the first time that is under the media spotlight for is controversial supporting on Ukrainian-Russia war. For now he has considerable notability as a criminal. 109.114.14.46 (talk) 10:35, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a bad argument to use on its own. GhostOfNoMeme 12:49, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Delete -- WP:BLP1E on an event that itself is facing an argument on whether it deserves a stand-alone article. I second deletion. Let us stop making an article for every idiot who trespasses with intentions to commit a felony. We are not a Tabloid! Delete immediately or lose the credibility as an Encyclopaedia. Also, giving visibility to such people reinforces their desire to kill.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.87.68.175 (talk • contribs)
Also, giving visibility to such people reinforces their desire to kill. Maybe so, but Misplaced Pages is not censored. What's important is the verifiability and notability of an article's subject. GhostOfNoMeme 12:56, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Keep: per WP:RAPID also we have Squeaky Fromme, who also failed at an assassination where no one was hurt. LuxembourgLover (talk) 13:46, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
@LuxembourgLover: We also don't have Michael Steven Sandford who failed at an assassination of Trump where nobody was hurt. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:52, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
I feel like a person grabbing a cops gun is not the same as police opening fire a a guy aiming at trump. LuxembourgLover (talk) 13:59, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
In that case, see Salvador Ramos, a man who killed 21 people in ~90 minutes, also someone who doesn't have an article because the section on them is perfectly fine. The only notability by Routh so far is his involvement in an incident not even primarily regarding him (WP:CRIME). While he does meet Perp criteria 1, they still don't even know if this is the right guy. Sir MemeGod :D (talk - contribs - created articles) 14:05, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Striking out my comment, I have now realized that the two are barely comparable. SirMemeGod  21:55, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Keep: I was able to find more articles that date back before his attempted assassination, including his marriage and his life with his wife. Plus, it is the second attempted assassination of Donald Trump during the 2024 Election. Yoshiman6464 14:55, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Keep - Can't see any reason to delete this. I also expect a lot more coverage as he goes to trial and more details are revealed.KatoKungLee (talk) 15:25, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Keep as per others
Waleed (talk) 15:52, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Keep; does not satisfy the deletion requirements re: WP:BLP1E. To wit, requirement 3 (The event was not significant and/or the individual's role was either not substantial or not well-documented) is not met:
  • The event is significant; it is an assassination attempt of a former President of the United States. The example that BLP1E gives for notability is literally the Reagan assassination attempt.
  • The role of Ryan Wesley Routh is substantial; he is the primary suspect.
  • While the role of Ryan Wesley Routh is not well documented, this is covered by WP:RAPID as multiple people have noted, as the situation has not yet had enough time to develop and be written about.
𝔏𝔲𝔫𝔞𝔪𝔞𝔫𝔫🌙🌙🌙 𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔐𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔫𝔦𝔢𝔰𝔱 (talk) 19:53, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
The event was not "significant". The example given is the Reagan assassination attempt, where Reagan was severely wounded and nearly died. All that happened yesterday was that someone was found with a gun in a bush at Trump's golf course. No injuries at all – Routh didn't even let off any shots. All three criteria of BLP1E are met here (1: Covered in the context of a single event; 2: Obviously a low-profile individual; 3: the event was not "significant" enough to warrant a separate biography). C F A 💬 20:11, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
I agree with you, but regarding Routh didn't even let off any shots I don't think it's known either way, yet. CBC and NPR are both reporting that it's "unclear" whether he let off any shots before the USSS agent(s?) opened fire. The New York Times similarly says it's unclear whether he took any shots "before fleeing" (presumably meaning the time between being engaged by the agents and his fleeing).
Personally, I don't think this will amount to anything like the Crooks event. I don't see it being significant now or in the future. GhostOfNoMeme 20:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Delete Gregory Lee Leingang also tried to kill President Trump in 2017, but he did not get his own Misplaced Pages page. Neither men made a shot or any contact with him. Catboy69 (talk) 16:13, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Weak keep - It is true that Thomas Matthew Crooks underwent the same treatment in its early stages, with attempted redirects along the way. I'm against using that as keep justification though, considering that he has been confirmed as the attempted assassin of his case, whereas Routh is unconfirmed-- not to mention that there were no shots fired nor injuries sustained. Reasoning for weak keep is that there is significant media coverage, paired with the identification of being a suspect. RadiantTea (talk) 16:32, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Keep as per WP:RAPID.Jsgoodrich (talk) 16:40, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Keep per GNG ---Another Believer (Talk) 16:49, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Keep Participant in a major news story. Another example of deletionism gone wild. Moncrief (talk) 17:32, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 17:32, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Keep per earlier precedent such as Crooks. We are seeing the beginnings where political violence is being normalized once again in the US since the 1960s (Ronald Reagan's assassin wasn't really politically-motivated ..more of a celebrity fetish/crush thing ). Such novel developments should be represented via individuals such as these. I also disagree with editors saying "He barely did anything" , this also doesn't fit precedents in other cases (1) . Routh is notable enough , whenever he pulled the trigger or not. The fact he was the second person who attempted to assassinate Trump and has a clear political history compared to the late aloof and equivocal Crooks (Who literally was a kid), makes him in some way more interesting for readers.
TheCuratingEditor (talk) 18:43, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:BLP1E and WP:LASTING. Not notable for just this one incident at this time, and appears unlikely to be notable in the future (with the event itself currently bordering on being notable enough to sustain an article). —Locke Cole • t • c 18:54, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Keep as per WP:RAPID. Neighborhood Review (talk) 19:03, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Merge to Trump International Golf Club shooting pbp 19:16, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Keep he satisfies the notability requirements, the shooting and his Russo-Ukrainian War related activities combined together satisfy the guidelines.XavierGreen (talk) 19:20, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Keep for now. Given all the speculation, thorough coverage of Routh would unbalance the main article, but a brief summary is likely to produce an unbalanced account of Routh's politics and motivations. Nuance matters in a politically charged issue like this one, and the best way to maintain nuance is to maintain an article, at least for now. Guettarda (talk) 19:27, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Keep At this point in time it quite literally is too soon to dismiss him as not notable or not worthy of coverage. It has been ONE day since the investigation began. To close the book on him and say he's not worthy of note is a rush to judgement on many fronts. While the investigation runs its course and the Court moves as well, it can be re-evaluated as more information comes to light. However for the moment, rushing to delete or saying both the would-be assailant and the incident are not notable is an extreme rush to judgement as there are obviously facts that we don't know yet. In cases like this it's best to wait a few days and as much as a week before making any judgement calls. GokuSS400 (talk) 20:46, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • KEEP This person tried to assassinate a former President who is a current party's nominee for president. This was almost immediately known; and every fact disclosed since the attempted assassination has confirmed that it was an attempted assassination. The FBI has now stated that he was "lying in wait" for Trump for nearly 12 hours. Let the people see the facts as they are publicly known... otherwise, the attempt to delete this article is just another censorship attempt. What else do you need... a conviction? Dw1215 (talk) 20:46, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with this. Routh's situation is more akin to someone like Gregory Lee Leingang, who also had an "attempt" to assassinate Trump but did not get close enough to injure him. Leingang is briefly mentioned on Security incidents involving Donald Trump, and so Routh could be mentioned there, or at the main article about this incident. Natg 19 (talk) 21:09, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Another similar situation is Michael Steven Sandford (2016 Donald Trump Las Vegas rally incident), who also does not have a separate article. Natg 19 (talk) 21:11, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Meaningless examples, please see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. I could just as easily bring up Sara Jane Moore from the Attempted assassination of Gerald Ford in San Francisco or Squeaky Fromme from the Attempted assassination of Gerald Ford in Sacramento: neither of whom injured a president. Unlike you, I was citing Misplaced Pages policy, specifically condition 3 of WP:BLP1E. Routh's role was 1) substantial and 2) well-documented in RS. ~ HAL333 23:03, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
@HAL333 You understand that WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS applies to your example of John Hinckley Jr., right? Though I agree with Natg that Hinckley isn't in the same category as Routh appears to be. As far as conditions are concerned, Routh's role may have been "substantial" in the context of the "apparent" attempted assassination, but there's an or there that you seem to be missing, and that's the event is not significant, and this one clearly is borderline right now given nothing happened (nobody was hurt or injured, and one Secret Service agent fired his weapon). Being well-documented in RS is not sufficient enough to justify a separate article. —Locke Cole • t • c 23:17, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Categories: