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September 12

"The Irish have a certain root"

"*The Merry-Thought*" (see Hurlothrumbo#Namesakes) is an eighteenth-century collection of graffiti. The fourth book was published around 1731, and it contains:

On Miss Sk—— at Tunbridge.

The Irish have a certain Root,

Our Parsnip’s very like unto’t,

Which eats with Butter wond’rous well,

And like Potatoes makes a Meal.

Now from this Root there comes a Name,

Which own’d is by the beauteous Dame,

Who sways the Heart of him who rules

A mighty Herd of Knaves and Fools.

From the rest of the book, it seems that rebuses on women's names were a popular subject for graffitists at the time, and most of the women were not famous. Usually the book gives the answer in the title it uses for the rebus, but in this case it doesn't, and I can't think of the answer.

We know that the name begins "Sk", or possibly "Sc" in modern spelling. It also means a root vegetable, and I can't think of any that begin that way.

If the verse had said that the woman herself ruled a mighty herd, it would have implied she had many admirers. Instead, it says she swayed the heart of someone who does. Who was that? The king at the time was George II of Great Britain. Misplaced Pages says his lovers were:

• Caroline of Brandenburg-Ansbach, his wife;
• Henrietta Howard, per English and British royal mistresses;
• Amalie von Wallmoden, ditto;
• Sally Salisbury, per Category:Mistresses of George II of Great Britain

none of whom has a name beginning Sk—, or shared with a root vegetable.

(It may be relevant, but probably isn't, that "potato" once meant a sweet potato, the other kind being called "Virginia potatoes".)

I'm stumped. Any thoughts? Marnanel (talk) 12:34, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Skirret? Mikenorton (talk) 12:44, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

And Maria, Lady Walpole, née Skerret, not a royal consort, but she certainly swayed the heart of Robert Walpole. Mikenorton (talk) 12:48, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Presumably the "mighty Herd of Knaves and Fools" are the members of parliament. Mikenorton (talk) 19:20, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Wasn't there a scandal about Walpole going down to Tunbridge Wells to see Molly while she was taking the cure? Something in Pope (I think he was agin her), or Lady Mary Wortley Montagu (she was a friend)? DuncanHill (talk) 19:51, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps something to do with scorzonera, another name for black salsify (which, despite the alternative name, is not in the genus Scorzonera)?  --Lambiam 20:01, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Lady Maria certainly seems to fit given her maiden name! Thanks all. Marnanel (talk) 15:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Asquith's letters to Hilda Harrisson

One of H. H. Asquith's lady friends was Hilda Harrisson (1888-1972) (mother of Anne Symonds) to whom he left £2500 in his will. Two selections of his letters to Hilda were sympathetically edited by Desmond MacCarthy and published as Letters of the Earl of Oxford and Asquith to a Friend, first & second series, in the 1930s. I would like to know if the originals survive? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:24, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Over 360 of them were put up for auction a few months ago with an estimated price of $15,000 to $25,000, but they remained unsold. Missed your chance there. Whether there are others elsewhere I know not. --Antiquary (talk) 19:01, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, I must hurry up and win the Lottery. DuncanHill (talk) 19:18, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

September 14

Territorial continuity of Transnistria

Some maps show Transnistria as two territories with a small piece of land controlled by the Moldovan gov in between (see for instance: https://en.wikivoyage.org/Transnistria and File:Moldova adm location map.svg). The map used on the Misplaced Pages article uses a different color for that piece of land: File:Naddniestrze.png but there's no legend. Apparently Cocieri "remained in the area controlled by the Republic of Moldova" while nearby Roghi "is partly controlled by the secessionist government of Transnistria". Transnistria article says: "The main transportation route in Transnistria is the road from Tiraspol to Rîbnița through Dubăsari. North and south of Dubăsari it passes through the lands of the villages controlled by Moldova (Doroțcaia, Cocieri, Roghi, while Vasilievca is located entirely to the east of the road)." So who controls that piece of land? Do we have a reliable source? Should we update the maps? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 11:36, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

There is a legend to the map in the Summary section of the page File:Naddniestrze.png; this legend is not included where the map is used on the page Transnistria.  --Lambiam 03:30, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. So the legend doesn't give the colors but the borders and I understand that this piece of land is claimed by Transnistria but controlled by Moldova with the exception of two roads? If I zoom in on the Wikivoyage map, they indeed show the Western road (not the Eastern one) as part of Transnistria. It would be great to have a single map backed by RS (there's also this one, a bit different, with some English typos, and whose accuracy is contested: File:Transnistria după Asybaris.jpg). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:50, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Considering that the state of Transnistria isn't recognised by Moldova, the situation is likely to be fuzzy in some places, and indeed this appears to be one of those fuzzy places. According to some maps, the M4 road is controlled by Transnistria as a corridor through Moldova controlled land. This M4 is crossed by a farm track. From the satellite images on Google Earth, it appears that there's no proper border checkpoint at this farm track. So who controls the fields? The farmer who works them. The whole area appears to be behind Transnistrian border checkpoints, but in reality that border may not be very hard and people tend to be pragmatic. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:52, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Makes sense, thanks. M4 highway (Moldova) also says: "The road is controlled in its entirety by the government of the unrecognized state of Transnistria, as the road primarily crosses through Transnistrian territory. However, near the city of Dubăsari, it crosses the de facto border between Moldova (Dubăsari District) and Transnistria on several occasions." I found RS. I'll edit other articles accordingly. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 11:48, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Name of this headdress?

Is there a name for this headdress? She's Anne of Brittany. Seems to have been commonly worn in her era. BorgQueen (talk) 12:22, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure there is a general one. If there is, it will probably have been given by later historians. Generally, we have many unillustrated names in inventories etc, and a decent number of images, but hardly ever any source that links a name to a style. In English this is sometimes called a "French hood", but thisn't much use for France, imo, though I see we have an article. "Gable hood" for the distinctive angled English version is much better established, but I think also modern. Johnbod (talk) 12:34, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer! BorgQueen (talk) 12:38, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Coiffe française. The article names Anne de Bretagne as the OG of this coiffe.  --Lambiam 18:41, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't trust that - it's a direct translation of the en-wiki article. -- asilvering (talk) 05:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

OK. From a book with the title Anne de Bretagne: Sur les différentes enluminures où elle apparaît, elle porte toujours sur la tête ce qu'on appelle la cape bretonne. Also used in French in a magazine article from 1912. And in an English book entitled Womankind in Western Europe from the Earliest Times to the Seventeenth Century we find: She wears on her head the small flat hood, à la mode de Bretagne, which was called the cape Bretonne.  --Lambiam 10:45, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

September 15

Mad dogs and Englishmen...

... go out in the mid-day sun, as we are told. Our article says "The saying "Only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun" is often asserted to have been coined by Rudyard Kipling but no precise source is ever cited". The song came out in 1931. In the 1911 short story "Amid the Trees" by Francis Xavier we read "only an Englishman or a dog walks in the mid-day sun, runs the proverb". So, are there any earlier incarnations of the proverb? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 19:24, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

In Reminiscences of the Late Thomas Barker, an 1862 paper by Frederick Shum, we have mention of "the Italian saying that 'none but Englishmen and dogs would be seen abroad in the mid-day sun'." In a para called "An Italian Midday" in the 19 May 1838 issue of The New-Yorker (not that one) there seems to be an allusion to the same saying: "There is something to an English eye very singular in the appearance of a southern city at these hours. The closed shops, the deserted streets, closed and deserted under the very mid-day sun, make it look like a city of the dead. Dogs and Englishmen, they say, are alone stirring." --Antiquary (talk) 20:14, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

And the website Phrase Finder traces it back to Charles Burney, who in 1770 wrote, "He certainly over-heated himself at Venice by walking at a season when it is said that only Dogs and Englishmen are seen out of doors at noon, all else lie down in the middle of the day." --Antiquary (talk) 20:31, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

@DuncanHill: According to The Yale Book of Quotations, “An earlier version found for this book is, “It is a common saying at Rome, ‘None but dogs, ideots, and Frenchmen walk the streets in day-time”’ (John George Keysler, Travels Through Germany, Bohemia, Hungary, Switzerland, Italy and Lorrain ).” John M Baker (talk) 21:42, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

September 16

Cobalt child mining in Congo

Child labour has been endemic in Africa for a long time, and child laboour in cobalt mines have been used long before we had EVs. I have been looking for any solid evidence that children involved in Cobalt mining in the Congo has increased since the rise of the EV. I have still to find any. If there is solid evidence, I want to add it to the article on Cobalt. If nobody can find any evidence, then should that be added to the article? There seems to be an assumption that there is an increase, as in articles saying that "it is reasonable to assume that... ". Would anyone care to help me find evidence either way that could be added to the article and that leads to enlightenment on the subject? Star Lord - 星爵 (talk) 10:50, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

The United States Department of Labor has a project to identify and reduce child labor in Congo cobalt mines called COTECCO (I'm not sure what that acronym is for). Because they work on that specific issue, they likely have plenty of documentation on the topic. My understanding is that the project ends next month, so they should still have current data. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 14:24, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

I think the acronym is French. In neighbouring Angola the expansion might be a COmbater Trabalho de crianças nas minas de Cobaldo na república democrática do COngo. 2A02:C7B:223:9900:A88D:8EE5:E75B:3C1A (talk) 16:03, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Originally an ILO project: Combattre le travail des enfants dans les chaînes d’approvisionnement de Cobalt en République démocratique du Congo.  --Lambiam 22:41, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. I have read all the COTECCO documents I could find on www.dol.gov on the subject. It seemed to be directed towards raising awareness levels with private and govt stakeholders in DRC. I found no mention on any change in child labour. I suppose I shall not have anything of substance to add to the article. Star Lord - 星爵 (talk) 18:23, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

There is this interesting paper which found: These findings further corroborate the evidence that the boom in cobalt production from mining that occurred since 2007 has caused children in areas surrounding cobalt deposits to achieve lower education rates than children living in non-cobalt-mining villages in the DRC. Although this paper , while only looking at artisanal cobalt mines and comparing 3 different studies found an actual decrease in estimates "Artisanal cobalt mine site studies have estimated that children numbered 24,000 or 40% of total artisanal cobalt miners in 2002 (9), 60,000 or 40% in 2007 (25), and 35,000 or 14% in 2017 (28)." But I think the other thing they mention "For the same reasons that it is difficult to estimate artisanal cobalt production, it is difficult to estimate how many people are working at artisanal mine sites. It is especially difficult to estimate the number of children who are digging, tunneling, washing ore, sorting ore, transporting ore, running errands, watching younger siblings, or being watched by parent miners (10, 20–25)" highlights why it's not particularly useful to compare those 3 different studies and suggest the numbers have actually decreased. IMO the sort of stuff in the first paper is probably the best you'll find. I'm sure you can find studies which have estimated an increase, but the limitations in actually gathering good data on how many children are working in such mines means that IMO it's not really much better than "we're fairly sure the absolute number of workers has increased quite substantially with the boom in mining from EVs and electronics and we're fairly we're fairly sure the problems which resulted in children working in the mines remain and we don't think the number of children working in the mines reached saturation so it's likely the absolute number of children working in mines has increased. Nil Einne (talk) 15:42, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you @Nil Einne . No point in putting uncertain estimates into the article. Star Lord - 星爵 (talk) 07:07, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

September 17

People guessing keys of melodies using wrong rules

Look at Talk:Hail to the Chief.

Back in 2004, I (at that time using 66.32 and 66.245 IP addresses ) made the first post to the talk page, simply writing the melody. The key is G major.

Years later, another IP (I never bothered to study this talk page until recently) made comments implying that the melody the way I posted it was in D major, using the bad argument that a melody must start on the tonic. It's quite common for melodies to start on the dominant. Is this a common wrong rule some people use?? (Another important fact is that the post I made back then was before Misplaced Pages adopted a rule that you can't use a number sign for a sharp sign.) Georgia guy (talk) 00:19, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

It's a shame because it's an incredibly intuitive concept once it's explained the right way: it's just the note that feels like "home" for all intents and purposes! Find the note that sounds okay being hummed throughout, and that's probably the tonic! Remsense ‥ 论 00:51, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Remsense, look at the melody I wrote in the talk page of Hail to the Chief back in late 2004. I'm sure the tonic is G. (If you look at lower comments in the same section you'll see someone saying information implying that D is the tonic.) Georgia guy (talk) 01:12, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Apologies to you as a Georgia guy, but the example du jour of this has been Sweet Home Alabama, though the reasoning is at least because the chord progression seems like it outlines G (D 〃 C G → V 〃 IV I) instead of D (I 〃 ♭VII IV) to some. Remsense ‥ 论 01:16, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

@Georgia guy, I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at. Are you saying that File:Hail to the Chief Chorus Sheet Music.png is in G?

I'm not sure how that could be (by the way, you would be arguing it's in G Lydian). It starts with a strong I–V–I that rather firmly establishes D as the tonic—you have to look at the entire harmony to discern the key, not just the melody. In any case, it would be rather untypical to start with the leading tone. The harmonies rather squarely fit into what'd we'd expect from a piece in D, with really no exceptions. Aza24 (talk) 03:21, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

The melody recorded with note names in Talk:Hail to the Chief § Melody and the First Voice seen in the score at File:Hail to the Chief Chorus Sheet Music.png are not in the same key. The melody rises stepwise to the note sounded at "Chief", the fourth syllable of the text (not counting the two-bar intro "Hail! Hail!"). This note is the tonic. On the talk page of Hail to the Chief this is a G; in the printed score it is a D. The Bass Voice in the score is stubbornly D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D throughout the initial "Hail to the Chief who in Triumph ad-". This is as sure an indication of the tonic as one might hope to get from the music itself. The key signature of the score is also that of D major.  --Lambiam 08:25, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Aza24, the song (like most songs) can be in any key; the key depends on how the song is arranged. Here is the first line of the song in each key:

• D major: A-B-C♯-D-C♯-B-A-B-A-F♯-E-D
• G major: D-E-F♯-G-F♯-E-D-E-D-B-A-G. Lambiam, what notes (assuming the song is in G major) are the notes "Hail! Hail!" that make up the 2-bar intro?? (Also please note that a few years later, someone re-wrote the melody, also on the talk page but in a lower section, in a different key with a description that would imply that the melody that I wrote on the talk page was in D; it would imply that the printed score is in A. They were using the argument that a song's first note is likely its tonic.) Georgia guy (talk) 10:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  Each of the two initial Hail!s takes up a full bar of four beats. Looking at all three voices, the first is D·F♯·D and the second A·E·C♯. Although the first is not a full triad I interpret this as the progression I–V, which is followed by D·F♯·A, unambiguously I. Melodically, A–C♯–A wouldn't have worked well; D–C♯–A is much better.  --Lambiam 16:04, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  Lambiam, please note what this discussion is intended to be about. Look further down the talk page (below where I put the melody in G major) and you'll see what I mean. You'll see a comment made by an IP who said something that if it were true, it would imply that the way I put the melody at the talk page (which is in G) was in D. Georgia guy (talk) 16:09, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  What is the question? If you want me to comment on a comment by someone who commented on your comment, could you be more precise than "further down the talk page", such as indicating in which thread by which IP when?  --Lambiam 16:32, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  Lambiam, look down the talk page for a post dating to late 2008 by the IP 90.24.229.69. (The 66. user who put the notes to the song in G major in late 2004 was me before I got a Misplaced Pages user name on January 1, 2005.) Georgia guy (talk) 16:34, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  The post starting with "Wrong image" then. Could you remind me what the question is?  --Lambiam 18:59, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  Lambiam: Yes, look at what someone wrote just after the words "Wrong image". The IP put the melody in a different key but claimed it was in the key that would be equivalent to the statement that the melody I put on the talk page in 2004 was in D major. Please read it. Georgia guy (talk) 19:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  I did read it. Now what is your question?  --Lambiam 19:44, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  Now, the user appears to be thinking that their set of notes of "Hail to the Chief" is in F, not B♭. This is a mistake. I want to know if this is a common mistake. Georgia guy (talk) 20:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  It is not a common mistake among people who know something about Western music theory. It is also not a common mistake among people who know nothing about Western music theory and therefore refrain from making statements about what key something is in. But then there are some people who know nothing about Western music theory and yet are happy to make pronouncements that only display their ignorance. I have no material on how common this is for this specific type of error.  --Lambiam 22:31, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  Infralapsarianism infiltrates inter-disciplinarily. -- Jack of Oz 20:20, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Trump denied security clearance?

Suppose Donald Trump is inaugurated next January. Is there any way he could be denied any security clearance or information, due to his criminal convictions and so on? Could there be any restrictions that he could not overturn? Hayttom (talk) 12:21, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Nope. --Golbez (talk) 13:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

The president can constitutionally declare that there is an insurrection and, using the powers of the Insurrection Act, order the military to arrest their opponents. They need not involve Congress. If this doesn't work as planned, it can only be because of insubordination  --Lambiam 16:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Are acts of the president susceptible to Judicial Review? 2A02:C7B:223:9900:A88D:8EE5:E75B:3C1A (talk) 16:31, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

By a recent ruling of the Supreme Court, the president enjoys absolute immunity for official acts, which this would be. In light of this, the question is purely theoretical. There is no way that SCOTUS, if not already arrested, would seek to review the acts (and if they do, the president can have them incarcerated too).  --Lambiam 16:43, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

First, it's presumptive immunity for official acts, and absolute for so-called core acts of the office. The actual status (both legal and practical) of the notion of arresting/harassing/killing political opponents was disputed at the day of the ruling; I don't think anybody has seriously brought up the notion that other branches of government can be extralegally rounded up. Also, according to the Trump v US article you linked (but I didn't read the source and I probably don't understand it), Justice Jackson argued that legislative impeachment powers were reduced relative the judiciary in checking executive abuses of this nature after this ruling. So I'm guessing this is all way more complicated than all this, even if just theoretical. SamuelRiv (talk) 19:09, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Actually only Golbez (talk) seemed to understand my question (although they were not very generous with elaboration) so I will try to ask it better: could any institution like the CIA withhold (or try to withhold or at least demonstrate going through the motions of withholding) a president's security clearance on grounds such as their criminal history? Hayttom (talk) 17:47, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Nope. I mean, I suppose employees there could try, but they would be failing their job and thus should be fired. --Golbez (talk) 18:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

According to any source online, no conviction jeopardizes the president's security clearance because he doesn't have any (and keep in mind he gets classified briefings still, and would again be automatically granted them now as the major party's nominee, and his suitability to receive them even came up as an issue in 2016.) SamuelRiv (talk) 19:13, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

(Edit conflict): Addendum to my above: I don't know to what extent this is entirely norms, or norms made legal by default, just like there there ain't no rules says a dog can't play basketball. SamuelRiv (talk) 19:24, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

I think the 2016 source refers to presidential candidates. Hayttom (talk) 19:20, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Once nominated, the major party candidates get classified briefings. As do presidents. As do ex-presidents, for life. SamuelRiv (talk) 19:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

(I believe I remember George H. W. Bush being quoted a few years before he died that he was no longer in the loop. But I imagine that was by his own request.) Hayttom (talk) 20:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

OK, so we are being told that Trump (as an ex-president, as a candidate, and in the terms of my question, a president) cannot be denied classified briefings. Hayttom (talk) 20:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC) Resolved

Buddhist monks and nuns theravada mahayana vajrayana

Is there website where they show Buddhist monks and nuns of Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana look like and dress like? Donmust90 Donmust90 (talk) 18:24, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

You can do a web search for images of members of those schools. You can also see images in our articles at Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana. However, it's not as simple as that as their dress depends which country they are in and which particular branch of those schools they belong to. Shantavira| 08:15, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

September 19

Plan Tamaulipas

I am editing Hurricane Francine and I came across a Mexican organizations known as plans (Tamaulipas and DN-III). I am not sure what they are and I don't know how to research it as I do not speak Spanish (especially not Mexican Spanish). ✶Quxyz✶ 00:32, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

The reason that the subject line is for specifically Tamaulipas was because I changed the focus of the topic of this request midway through upon realizing the DN-III wikilink goes to DN-III-E which I am not sure is the same. ✶Quxyz✶ 00:36, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Plan Tamaulipas: A New Security Strategy for a Troubled State, published by the Wilson Center. Plan DN-III-E , Civil Relief and Aid Plan for Disasters, which is Annexe E of Plan DN-III (National Defence Plan No. III). DuncanHill (talk) 10:08, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Medusa with a snake body

What was the earliest known depiction or attestation of Medusa (or any other Gorgon) being described as having a snake's body from the waist or hips down? I remember being told by someone at a younger age that sometime after the Roman Republic's era was possibly the first time that Medusa with a snake body was first told, but that depiction remained an uncommon thing until Ray Harryhausen's 1981 film Clash of the Titans permanently cemented the "snake-lower-half" look over the "ugly monstrous woman" look as the default imagery that comes to mind in modern popular culture whenever someone thinks of the names "Medusa" or "Gorgon". I would like to know if there is any merit to this claim; was it invented later-but still long ago such as in Renaissance or Early Modern times, or was it purely an invention by Harryhausen that everyone just latched onto?

And before anyone brings it up, yes, I am aware that some of the oldest known physical descriptions of Medusa were inconsistent between writers of antiquity, with the most descriptive being that of a hideously ugly woman with brass hands, brass or golden wings, boar tusks, writhing snakes for hair, and a stretched tongue, as depicted on surviving pottery and atop the temple to Artemis at Corcyra. I also understand that 3500-or-so years of orally passing down the same tale is bound to create some changes and mutations to the original telling along the way; for example, the hideous monster look started to be shed away in favour of just being a young woman who happens to have living snakes for hair sometime during the Renaissance.

Again, what I am asking for is the earliest known or surviving Medusa description that has her with a snake body with snake-hair, as is common in modern culture now, rather than as just an ugly woman with snake-hair. 72.234.12.37 (talk) 10:53, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Peace Day 1919

I am putting together an article for Peace Day 1919 on 19 July of that year, which was celebrated in London with a large military parade, sometimes described as "the London Victory Parade". I am having trouble finding the exact route of the parade. I know that the saluting base was outside Buckingham Palace and that the route included Lutyen's temporary Centaph in Whitehall. In Category:1919 London Victory Parade , there are photos of a rehearsal marching from Buckingham Palace to the Tower of London and other photos of troops and tanks crossing Westminster Bridge. Any further help would be greatly appreciated. Alansplodge (talk) 11:26, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

"a seven- mile route that began at the Albert Gate to Hyde Park, turned south to cross the river, winding through London south of the Thames, before eventually returning across Westminster Bridge, past Parliament and Big Ben and turning north onto Whitehall, where the temporary Cenotaph had just been unveiled, into Trafalgar Square and onto the Mall, past the Victoria Memorial where King George V and the royal party would take the salute, then along Constitution Hill to the finish back in Hyde Park". Will look further later. DuncanHill (talk) 11:32, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Of course, 1 Albert Gate was and still is the French Embassy, a fitting starting point. DuncanHill (talk) 11:45, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Page 3 of the Daily Mirror of 17 July 1919 has: "The line of route is:- From Kensington Gardens by way of South Carriage Road (Hyde Park), Albert Gate, Knights- bridge, Sloane-street, Pont-street, Chesham-place, Belgrave-square South, Upper and Lower Belgrave-streets, Buckingham Palace-road, Victoria- street, Vauxhall Bridge-road, Vauxhall Bridge, Upper Kennington-lane, Kennington-road, Lambeth road, Westminster Bridge, Bridge-street, Parliament-street, Whitehall, Charing Cross, Admiralty Arch, The Mall, Constitution Hill, Hyde Park- corner, Apsley Gate, Hyde Park to Kensington Gardens." - Dumelow (talk) 11:49, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Page 16 of The Times for the date of the parade has a map and anticipated timings for each location. These should be available from newspapers.com via WP:TWL - Dumelow (talk) 11:53, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

The parade is covered in some of the books I used when I took The Cenotaph to FA. See the "war memorials" and "social impact of WWI" sections of User:HJ Mitchell/Library. If you started an article, I'd contribute what I could or if you were looking for something specific I could check the books but I have limited time until after the weekend. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:13, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks all. It seems that I was being confused by a "Dominion Victory Parade" through the City on 3rd May 1919.

User:HJ Mitchell, many thanks for the offer. I'm at the stage of gathering references and getting my head around it, I'll get back to you when things have progressed. Alansplodge (talk) 19:52, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Carrie Chapman Catt's puzzling get-up

Here we have a picture of Carrie Chapman Catt (on the right, I think) and Anna Howard Shaw. Dr Shaw is wearing her doctoral gown. What on earth is Ms Catt wearing? Marnanel (talk) 15:12, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Could it be her "ratification dress" referred to in the article? Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any other images of it, though it was said to be sapphire blue rather than white. Shantavira| 16:14, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

During women's suffrage demonstrations, women often wore white dresses. It isn't likely a special type of dress. It is white, which is a symbolism they wanted. You can find many images of women's suffrage marches where nearly all of the women are wearing white dresses. This document begins with another view of the march where you can see many other women dressed in white. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 17:26, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

The woman on the right is wearing a cape with a flag design below the left shoulder, but what's underneath the cape seems to be an ordinary semi-formal 1917 white dress, as far as can be seen... AnonMoos (talk) 17:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

It's the costume of Super Suffragette. To her left is her obligatory sidekick, Ballot Woman. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:16, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

September 20

Split from BNP 2001-2006

I am just curious: how many parties split from Bangladesh Nationalist Party (BNP) during their term from 2001 to 2006? So far, I know that there were two: Liberal Democratic Party lead by Oli Ahmed and Bikolpodhara party lead by Dr. badrozzoha or what ever his name was. 2607:FEA8:55E2:8B00:49D0:D87A:E12A:81A2 (talk) 01:45, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Falkland Islands pound

The article Falkland Islands pound mentions they use their own currency there, but scotland technically has its own too but they use regular GBP. Can brits use a GBP card without currency conversion (like scotland)? I understand the unlikelihood of people having been there, but was curious. The same would go for the dutch visiting the carib islands. St Maarten accepts ECD, but I dunno if the southern ones use euros alone? Sportsnut24 (talk) 05:37, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Scotland does not technically have its own currency. Some Scottish banks issue their own notes, which are fully backed by the Bank of England. You can use GBP in the Falklands. Different parts of the Dutch Caribbean use the Netherlands Antillean guilder and the US Dollar, although it is likely many places will accept euros. CMD (talk) 06:27, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I was wondering if GBP card in Stanley would work directly or have currency conversion?Sportsnut24 (talk) 08:30, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I know they do in some other UK territories, but always best to check directly with your bank. More importantly, if someone gets Falkland Islands cash, they shouldn't expect it to be useful in the UK. CMD (talk) 10:24, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I know Gibraltar is fine for GBP. Not been, but I'd use dollars, so it wouldn't matter anyways.Sportsnut24 (talk) 05:47, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

32 years ago when I went to Gibraltar, I could spend my British pounds all right, but when I then withdrew from an ATM it dispensed Gibraltar pounds, which were worth about 10% less when exchanged at a bank in England. --142.112.148.3 (talk) 18:25, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Egyptian zodiac

How many of these are there? There's the famous Dendera one, there's a recently re-uncovered one in Esna that's rather -- shall we say very not traditional-formal -- there's one forgotten almost as soon as Petrie illustrated it in Athribis, and there's the pictured one, Belzoni's from Thebes. Which I'm not immediately sure if it is a Zodiac. I'd like there to be a page on these, but I don't know if there are synthetic or contextualizing sources on them like there are few but easily available for Zodiac synagogue mosaic. Temerarius (talk) 22:30, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Are they all from the Hellenistic or Roman period? AnonMoos (talk) 01:30, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

That's something I'm trying to figure out. And in Dendera's case the dating was so contentious, apparently, that a whole "affair" was declared about it. Baron G Cuvier's 1831 account there mentions the possibility of Ense being a "wholly Mesopotamian zodiac" if that's not a self-contradiction. I'd thought the temple had only been found for the first time recently. You can see some pictures here. https://english.ahram.org.eg/News/491999.aspx You can see the artist was familiar with Egyptian formalism but not beholden to it, they're careful yet cartoonish, literate but not respectful of hieroglyphs, not even bothering to put them on a grid or in relief. It's like they wanted the paint to do all the work for them, perhaps a painter before a carver. The simplicity of their smiles make them look child-made. In other words, the oddness makes it seem unquestionably late. Ptolemaic weirdness perhaps. If Mesopotamia inspired the content, it didn't influence the style. Athribis is more pleasant; naive but native.

Temerarius (talk) 03:16, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

What's with all the black dots like ⬤ on the bottom-line figures? Is there a known explanation?  --Lambiam 08:23, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

The white black dots? Those are sun-disks, but the closest article I could find is solar symbol. The slightly different one on the right is between cow horns and belongs to Hathor, or maybe Isis. Of course Ra is depicted with a sun on his head, but here it seems every god gets a sun-disk, maybe because the date is late and Ra#worship has increased? This is from the Tomb of Seti I, and the figures are made of gold. I guess the nine on the right are the Ennead? Not sure what happened to Osiris, in that case, and I don't know about the eleven on the left but I can identify Thoth (by the beak).

Here's a description of how the clutter in the middle is a zodiac. It's being compared to the Astronomical ceiling of Senenmut's Tomb.  Card Zero  (talk) 09:03, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

No, by "black dots" I mean black black dots, "black" as in "the colour black", a colour that results from the absence of light, like the colour of this dot: ⬤. Most figures on the bottom line, especially in the left half, display eight or more black dots, in many cases one on each of their shoulders, one on each of their wrists, one on each of their ankles, and two on the bottom edges of their skirts.  --Lambiam 22:04, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh you mean the black black dots. I missed those. I wonder what they are? In photographs they're brown, the same as the paint used for most of the lines on the figures. Obvious guess: stars? But that's a terrible guess, considering how many are lined up in neat rows. However ... the bull apparently represents the Big Dipper, and if we allow that the nameless man holding the chains is part of it, he has four dots in an oblong, which seem to match up.  Card Zero  (talk) 08:07, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh, the red brown black black dots. Might be stars, just have to count them. If not, they're probably structural not decorative inlay points, if the figures were separate material ("made of gold".) Not saying I've seen an example like that before though.

Temerarius (talk) 17:57, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

waiting now for orange red brown black black dots, then yellow orange red brown black black dots … —Tamfang (talk) 19:23, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Card Zero, good one! Your source says there are 24 Egyptian zodiacs, where some say three. Too bad it doesn't list them.

Temerarius (talk) 02:56, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

It also says they're a Greek period thing. So I guess these older "astronomical ceilings" don't count, despite being constellations, and despite the zodiacs being mostly on ceilings or inside coffin lids. Define zodiac, I don't know, I guess it has to be an approximation to the familiar set of constellations and not some earlier set.  Card Zero  (talk) 08:40, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, what exactly counts as a Zodiac and are they definitionally Greek-derived are questions that come up. I'm gonna reread S Langdon's "Babylonian menologies and Semitic calendars" to see how specifically he uses the word. https://archive.org/details/babylonianmenolo0000step That's a good source that collects many deeply intriguing details and connections. Of course, as any work highly synthetic it requires a piecemeal not wholesale comprehension.

Temerarius (talk) 17:50, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Searching the tomb name gives the article Tomb of Seti I, and Commons has the color photo which says that the dots are painted red and are the actual stars in the (painted) constellations. (I had initially thought they'd be for inlays as well.) SamuelRiv (talk) 01:01, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Petrie worked at the southern Athribis (Upper Egypt), see Athribis, pp. 12-13, plates pp. 66ff. He says that the tombs are of late date, no earlier than Ptolemaic. MinorProphet (talk) 13:00, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll add the plates to that page.

Temerarius (talk) 22:16, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

There was a long post that was a bit hard to follow but didn't immediately look like trolling to me, what was the matter with it? Was that a known troll?

Temerarius (talk) 23:40, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, general word of thumb is if you see a large amount of text appearing and being reverted on here, it's probably VXFC. GalacticShoe (talk) 00:03, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

A thumb doesn't have words. The words are in the index.  Card Zero  (talk) 06:22, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Looks like I accidentally coined a phrase, it does happen thumbtimes... GalacticShoe (talk) 06:57, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

September 21

The "bird famine of 1880"

Referred to in Poems (1894), at that page and the next, as an easily recognisable event. I assume it's some kind of crop failure, but I haven't been able to find anything about that (all sites in a quick search quote from the book). Any ideas? — Alien  3
3 3 15:07, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

I see a bird famine is a harsh winter where birds can't find food (there are other references, so it was a term with currency). And here we have a description of birds struggling to find food during the unusually harsh winter of 1880.  Card Zero  (talk) 15:55, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, question answered. — Alien  3
3 3 16:42, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, probably, but the book ref refers to Hampshire, England, and the poems are presumably by Sarah Morgan Bryan Piatt, who didn't come to Europe (Ireland in fact) until 1882. I suppose it might have been a transatlantic thing. Johnbod (talk) 18:38, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

See the etymonline entry for blizzard. "it came into general use in the U.S. in this sense in the hard winter of 1880-81." Oh, and of course our article, Hard Winter of 1880–81.  Card Zero  (talk) 19:50, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

(We do have definitive confirmation that Sarah Piatt is Sarah Morgan Bryan Piatt.) — Alien  3
3 3 09:35, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

According to this article, in 1880 in the south of England, it snowed unusually late in April and May (when birds would be nesting) and unusually early in October. Alansplodge (talk) 13:02, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I had a fun time investigating the extent of the winter of 1880-81, which included rumours of wolves in a park in Paris and the destruction by frost of a famous pine forest near Ravenna , though it was a mild winter in Turkmenistan.  Card Zero  (talk) 16:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Ignore that, the poem refers to a "red-bird" which is apparently a northern cardinal, setting it firmly in the United States. Alansplodge (talk) 14:32, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

September 23

Margarethe von Helfenstein

I have a problem at Margarethe von Helfenstein, when did she die? (I will copy any answers to the talk page there.) Margarethe was the illegitimate daughter of Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor, sister of George of Austria and wife of de:Ludwig V. von Helfenstein-Wiesensteig, who was killed in 1525. So far, there are three different answers in the sources

• The Belgian Nouvelle Biographie Nationale says "morte en Allemagne après 1531" .
• Deutsche Biographie's article on Maximilian I says she died in 1525,
• Some German sources say she died in 1537 in Liège, e.g. "nach dem Tod von Ludwig Helferich zog die Witwe in die Niederlande, nach Lüttich, zu ihrem Bruder Georg von Österreich, Fürstbischof von Lüttich (Georg/Joris war der illegitime Sohn von Kaiser Maximilian I. und Margareta von Edelsheim), starb dort 1537" "Nach 1515 heiratete Graf Ludwig von Helfenstein , der 1525 in Weinsberg ermordet wurde , Maximilians ältestes uneheliches Kind Mar- garethe ( geb. 1480 , gest . 1537 Lüttich )" Oddly George of Austria became Prince-bishop of Liège in 1544.

References

1. Coenen, Daniel (1999). "de Helfenstein, Marguerite". Nouvelle Biographie Nationale – Volume 5 (PDF) (in French). Royal Academy of Science, Letters and Fine Arts of Belgium. pp. 92–93.
2. "Maximilian I". Deutsche Biographie (in German). Retrieved 23 September 2024.
3. Naubert, Christiane Benedikte (29 February 2016). Der Bund des armen Konrads: Getreue Schilderung einiger merkwürdigen Auftritte aus den Zeiten der Bauernkriege des sechszehnten Jahrhunderts. (Transkription von Evelyn Hess) Neu herausgegeben, mit Fußnoten und einem Nachwort versehen von Sylvia Kolbe (in German). Engelsdorfer Verlag. p. 350. ISBN 978-3-96008-342-9. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
4. Tagung, Lehrstuhl für Allgemeine Geschichte des Mittelalters und Historische Hilfswissenschaften in Greifswald Interdisziplinäre (2002). Principes: Dynastien und Höfe im späten Mittelalter : interdisziplinäre Tagung des Lehrstuhls für Allgemeine Geschichte des Mittelalters und Historische Hilfswissenschaften in Greifswald in Verbindung mit der Residenzen-Kommission der Akademie der Wissenschaften zu Göttingen vom 15.-18. Juni 2000 (in German). Thorbecke. p. 283. ISBN 978-3-7995-4514-3. Retrieved 23 September 2024.

TSventon (talk) 13:49, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

@Deamonpen, Dimadick, Aciram, and Tfjt: TSventon (talk) 13:51, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

September 24

Liliuokalani to Victoria

There is a letter from Liliuokalani to Queen Victoria dated to January 31, 1893. I’ve found the return letter from Victoria but not the one sent by Liliuokalani. The citation in this source: Great Britain and the Hawaiian Revolution and Republic, 1893-1898, cites it to “Enclosure in Wodehouse, despatch to Rosebery, 1 Feb. 1893, FO 534/59” and quotes one line, “to avoid violence and bloodshed, and damage to my subjects”. This one gives another snippet from the letter: “friendly intercession and mediation“. Can someone help me find this letter in its entirety? KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:09, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Here's the National Archives catalogue entry FO 534/59. The letter might also be pp. 41-2 of FO 58/270. fiveby(zero) 03:37, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Anyone with access to the source and can scan it? I submitted a Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request#Letter to Victoria from Liliuokalani in case anyone there can get the resource as well. KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:11, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Tate, Merze (1962). "Great Britain and the Sovereignty of Hawaii". Pacific Historical Review. 31 (4). cites as FO 58/279 "Designs of the United States on Hawaii. Volume 2" which may be more complete and include foreign office notes for the reply (note Tate says "...Victoria opened the Queen of Hawaii's letter and returned it to the foreign office without comment. Since an acknowledgement and a reply of some sort to be sent, the undersecretaries in that office decided on one "with padding" to "the effect that the Queen had received the letter had referred it to her advisor.") fiveby(zero) 04:21, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Gordian coin with two scripts

https://postimg.cc/9DPF5fd5 This coin reads clearly enough IMP GORDIANUS PIUS, then immediately goes into another script that looks kind of Semitic, but I can't make sense out of it. Any ideas? If you can't read that, I can upload the short video clip where it's more legible--but where? The site where I uplaoded the image doesn't take videos. Temerarius (talk) 23:09, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I found numerous examples of Gordian III coins inscribed with IMP GORDIANVS PIVS FEL AVG and the letters on this one, assuming it is but one script, are perhaps too worn to make out properly. Modocc (talk) 00:42, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

A nice one. --Modocc (talk) 00:52, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

God, how strange! It does say FEL AUG. But it's copied so poorly it's like just the last bits were done by an illiterate. It's a different die from that gold one. The engraver seems to be splitting the difference at confusion over whether the bit under the P is headband, radial, or knot.

Temerarius (talk) 01:13, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Its quite possible that it was indeed done by an illiterate. As the Roman Empire declined, new coins minted in outlying portions of it under semi- or entirely autonomous local rulers naturally tried to copy older coins, but the engravers were sometimes not literate and had little idea of the 'correct' (letter) forms within the designs they were copying, and sometimes didn't fully understand what the 'pictures' represented (or lacked the skill to reproduce them well) so in time copies of copies of copies could degenerate into almost abstract and unrecognisable forms. This kind of 'devolution' can be seen both post-Roman coins and also coins from other cultures in Europe.

We ought to have something describing this in an article, but I haven't been able to find one. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.171.3 (talk) 17:56, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

From Offa of Mercia#Coinage: There are also surviving gold coins from Offa's reign. One is a copy of an Abbasid dinar struck in 774 by Caliph Al-Mansur, with "Offa Rex" centred on the reverse. It is clear that the moneyer had no understanding of Arabic as the Arabic text contains many errors. Also local copies of Spanish dollars or thalers are probably done by people who did not understand the originals. --Error (talk) 23:42, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Here's a blog post showing evolution from a Roman stater to some sort of cubist portrait with a horse with three tails on the reverse.  Card Zero  (talk) 06:06, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

September 25

Sword fight trope in movies

Does anyone know where this originated? The hero and villain face each other with swords from a few meters apart. Then they both run towards each other and strike at the same time with their swords. They run past each other and there is a moment of silence where it is unclear what happened. Then the bad guy starts spurting blood and falls over dead. This is a recent example from a movie I saw tonight, but there have been many more. I think it's quite common in anime. 146.200.126.178 (talk) 01:03, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

It certainly dates back to the silent film era, but I would expect it to originate prior to that in stage combat. Dekimasuよ! 01:37, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

you may be correct, but I did think it was a trope from Japanese cinema, perhaps as old as you said. I've definitely seen it in Japanese movies and anime over the years, but my memory fails me now. In Kill Bill, Beatrix kills O-Ren in this manner (she slices off the top of her head after a duel) - and I know Tarantino made his film as a homage to Japanese samurai movies. 146.200.126.178 (talk) 02:11, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

In Japan as well I would expect it to go back to stage combat and through silent movies, although in early Japanese cinema the hero was more likely to fight against a large group of enemies at once. Off the top of my head there is a prominent example in one of Seiji Miyaguchi's scenes in Kurosawa's Seven Samurai (1954, short cut here). Dekimasuよ! 02:31, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Off topic perhaps, but the Seagal scene is choreographed really badly, isn't it? At 1:35 we see Seagal from the perspective of the person he is fighting, swinging directly across from the left side of the screen. Seagal's sword jumps from a "down" position to an "up" position at 1:37 (with no blood on the sword). At 1:38 we appear to see Seagal swing the sword directly downward, but by this point the person Seagal's fighting is bleeding from the wrong side, apparently without his shirt being cut. At 1:45 Seagal's sword suddenly has blood dripping from it in massive amounts. Based on the character movements, the person Seagal was fighting against never even swung his sword, simply running straight past—although his arm also jumps from a "down" position to an "up" position at 1:38. At 2:17, the opponent falls dead with his face to the right. At 2:19, his face is to the left. Dekimasuよ! 02:47, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

The running towards each other is perhaps most famously (influentially) done in Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurai, in one of the early "recruitment" scenes. It's a samurai movie trope (it may predate it or be used in other genres, I don't know, but everyone knows Kurosawa), and it looks like in the clip they're recreating a number of the shot setups of Kurosawa.

There are several other stage combat tropes being done there, which are quite out of place (even for stage combat purposes). There usually has to be a reason for doing things, in a martial art, a sport, or in stage combat for theater. So randomly switching between different (better) films' of different genres' fight scene styles in the middle of a few minutes, if not a parody (and with Steven Seagal, who can know?) is rather jarring to anyone. That's why you saw it and thought to yourself, "something's very wrong". SamuelRiv (talk) 02:51, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

On the "silence" bit -- one thing I've noticed about stage combat (I've only done sport and martial arts, but this is from friends and teachers who did theater and some online info) is that a lot of form follows function as an excuse to talk. So in sword fights, the actors will find moments to get up real close and start shouting in each others' faces (The Force Awakens's final fight actually did this pretty decently), or else take a moment to stand apart and taunt each other (Empire Strikes Back did this extremely well). It's when a sword fight happens in complete silence, where the actors don't talk even when the trope would suggest they should, that the audience is signalled that this is beyond intense. Imo a perfect execution of this was in Rob Roy (1995 film), with the final scene being set up for the entire film. (Without that real emotional narrative buildup however, or some great investment where you think anything can happen (like sports), a silent fight scene in a film just gets boring.) (Addendum: this applies to stage and film combat. In sports and modern martial arts, none of that happens (except for weird artifacts of rules of sport fencing). As for a "real life swordfight", which people are asked about sometimes, nobody has been in one for generations, and a lot of the reconstruction is incomplete.) SamuelRiv (talk) 03:08, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Real life sword fight. A version of this video (warning, violence - no one died, both idiots got arrested) went viral a few years ago and people were saying that this is probably the first real sword fight caught on video. Iloveparrots (talk) 09:05, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Pokemon did it too. Not sure why that jumped into my head, but that's deffo a reference to something else. Iloveparrots (talk) 08:35, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

See also Diagonal Cut from tvtrpes.org. Alansplodge (talk) 14:58, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Convention vs. unconventional

If what is generally described as "good” art tends to be unconventional, which may also be described as original or new, which I personally believe is true, how does it avoid becoming conventional over time? Does art need to be in constant flux, changing its form in immeasurable ways, to stay one step ahead of convention? Is that which is conventional the enemy of art, or can it coexist and thrive alongside it? Viriditas (talk) 10:28, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

You will have to read a lot to get a satisfying answer. I would start with a search such as this: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=originality+art HansVonStuttgart (talk) 10:47, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

The notion that art should be original and therefore at least somewhat unconventional is relatively recent. Before the arrival of Modernism one century ago, Western art was governed by an aesthetic ideal of "beauty" that every art theorist defined in their own way. Innovations were valued only insofar as they brought the art closer to the unattainable ideal.

Just as fads in fashion are driven by a small group of fashion designers and critics, the notion of what is "good" (read, between the lines, "high-priced") art is also subject to fads driven by a small incrowd in the art world. People in this circle are keen to "discover" an unknown artist with a fresh, new, original, inspiring approach, preferably an artist in a small group of like-minded artists who are somewhat of a bunch of rebels, and to promote them – ignoring scores of other suffering artists with equally fresh, new, original and inspiring approaches. If this succeeds and the new star in the firmament shines bright and fetches high prices for their work, others jump on the bandwagon, and what once was original becomes unsellable imitation. It is time for the discovery of the next unknown artist with a fresh, new, original, inspiring approach.  --Lambiam 14:03, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Mugato piano key necktie gif. Viriditas (talk) 20:14, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Vikings

"The explanation could explain only the masculine grammatical gender (víkingr) and not the feminine (víking); the masculine is more easily derived from the feminine than the other way around." I'm confused about this sentence. Can someone please explain? I can see both words víkingr and víking being derived from the word "víkin". Why the derivation only works on the masculine form? Thanks! 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:1850:9245:B082:62CE (talk) 10:32, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Also, why the masculine form can be derived from the feminine form but not the other way around? I can easily imagine that víkingr and víking can both be derived from each other. I mean it makes sense in my head. What am I missing here? 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:1850:9245:B082:62CE (talk) 10:57, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

IP editor, have you read the reference for the sentence? It is fairly long and technical.

• Eldar Heide (2005). "Víking – 'rower shifting'? An etymological contribution" (PDF). Arkiv för Nordisk Filologi. 120: 41–54. Archived from the original (PDF) on 14 July 2014. Retrieved 20 April 2015.

TSventon (talk) 14:14, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I did spend half an hour reading it. It's too difficult for a layman person like me to understand what they're trying to say though. That's why I need an explaination for dummy. 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:EDA0:1EFB:E4CB:1F6A (talk) 04:23, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Secret ballot used in determining guilt

I'm currently reading Frankenstein for the first time (some of you might twig why).

The section (Vol. I, Chapter VII) where Justine is being tried for murder includes a reference to ballots: The ballots had been thrown; they were all black, and Justine was condemned. A footnote describes these ballots as "small balls used for secret voting". I'd love to hear more about this system. As an Aussie, I'm proud our name is sometimes attached to the secret ballot used for electing members of legislatures, and that result figures prominently in the searches I've done. Include "black" or "white" in the search terms, and I get lots of hits dealing with race as a factor in determining voter eligibility. Include "jury", and I get lots of hits for systems of choosing jurors. But nothing comes up for its use by juries themselves in criminal trials.

Our secret ballot article makes no reference to this. If Shelley's reference is historically accurate, it would considerably predate its use for electing politicians, and that's something we should definitely include in our article(s). The novel is set mainly in Switzerland, so perhaps this system did not obtain anywhere else. But then, how did an 18-year-old English girl get to know about it? And why would it be necessary anyway, since juries do their deliberations in secret. Or maybe that was different in some places at some times. Or maybe it was a panel of judges, rather than a jury in the 12 Angry Men sense.

Grateful for any information. -- Jack of Oz 19:08, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Our article entitled Blackballing should help. Blueboar (talk) 20:05, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

And ballot has a picture of "Ancient Greek bronze secret ballots", not sure if that predates electing politicians.  Card Zero  (talk) 20:09, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@ Blueboar: Blackballing makes no mention of its application to determining the guilt or innocence of a person charged with a crime, which is my sole interest here. -- Jack of Oz 23:55, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

(ec) A case from 1864, the Cantonal Parliament of Zurich voted on a motion for mercy in the case of a murderer. The members of the Cantonal Parliament had to deposit either a white (for mercy) or a black ball (against the motion) in an urn. DuncanHill (talk) 20:12, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Diccionario panhispánico del español jurídico has procedimiento administrativo de votación mediante bolas blancas y negras. It mentions honor and church corporations. Actually, I remember seeing in a church museum some such device used for voting.

--Error (talk) 23:30, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

"ow did an 18-year-old English girl get to know about it?" She (with Percy Shelley) spent the Summer of 1816 staying with Lord Byron in Geneva, where she got the idea for the work and began writing it. Presumably she, well educated by her father William Godwin, was intellectually curious and was able to learn something about the legal system of the country she was living in. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.171.3 (talk) 02:14, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

This is a really interesting question! As far as I can work out, black and white balls were a known form of secret voting in general in the eighteenth century, and criminal trials with juries that vote secretly started to catch on in France with the Revolution. So those things combined into some jury trials using balls for their secret ballots. The best sources I can find on the topic are "The Advent of the Secret Ballot in Britain and France, 1789–1914: From Public Assembly to Private Compartment" and "Publicity and Secrecy in Jury Proceedings" (PDF download). I haven't read either very closely but they seem likely to tell you much more. If there's good stuff in there, do expand the relevant wiki articles with it! ~ L 🌸 (talk) 03:29, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

A couple of thoughts - in the story it is a panel of judges, and perhaps the balls were metaphorical. DuncanHill (talk) 12:03, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

September 26

Adolf Uunona

Why was the page about Adolf Uunona deleted? Just curious. Also would I be ok to just revive the page myself? Cornishrom20 (talk) 11:19, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Adolf Uunona. Something strange going on here Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Adolf Hitler Uunona.2A00:23D0:E1D:AD01:9952:C7AB:38E2:BF35 (talk) 11:55, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Nothing strange going on at all, there was a "no consensus" AfD, the article was renamed, and then there was an AfD cloesed as delete. It has since been recreated repeatedly and speedily deleted as "Recreation of a page that was deleted per a deletion discussion". See the logs here. DuncanHill (talk) 12:06, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

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