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Revision as of 13:26, 28 September 2024

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Requested move 27 September 2024

It has been proposed in this section that 2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike be renamed and moved to 27 September 2024 Beirut attacks. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike → 27 September 2024 Beirut attacks or 27 September 2024 Beirut attack – While Israel states it only targeted the Hezbollah headquarters, several RS say the attack lay waste to "Several apartment blocks" or "multiple high-rise apartment buildings". Given such an immense destruction of civilian infrastructure, we should not put Israeli claims that this was a "precise strike" on just the Hezbollah HQ in wikivoice (violation of WP:POVTITLE]), and instead pick the most neutral title. VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 21:40, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, the suggested title is empty of meaning. A more relevant move would be to attempted assassination of Hassan Nasrallah or something similar Galamore (talk) 22:04, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Had the attack only killed/injured Nasrallah and those close to him, I'd have agreed with you. But the amount of collateral damage is immense and reducing it to one person, is quite POV. Also, there is precedent: consider the 1981 Iraqi embassy bombing in Beirut whose stated target was Iraqi PM Tariq Aziz or the Brighton hotel bombing, whose stated target was British PM Margaret Thatcher.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 22:59, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

• Consider the Israeli attempt to assassinate Muhammad Deif. The article is called 13 July 2024 al-Mawasi attack, based on consensus on the talk page. That event killed 90+ people and injured 300+, and it is quite likely that the death toll for this event might be similarly high.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 23:02, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Support: the proposed move strikes me as in line with existing practice, the wording in RS, and neutrality. AntiDionysius (talk) 23:40, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

@AntiDionysius:, fyi, I have changed the proposed title from "27 September 2024 Beirut attack" to "27 September 2024 Beirut attacks" (notice the plural).VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 01:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose with multiple additional attacks on Beirut weapons storage locations in the evening of the same day, but not on Hezbollah HQs, a better title might have to be the 27 September 2024 Beirut attacks (plural, not singular). This is going to take a few days to sort out what all these multiple attacks did, and how many Hezbollah & Iranian operatives may have been targeted in the attacks, before a WP:COMMONNAME can really be chosen for the longer term. N2e (talk) 00:04, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

You're right about the plural: "The series of massive explosions sent huge clouds of smoke soaring above the densely populated Haret Hreik neighbourhood in Dahiyeh, southern Beirut, around dusk on Friday." France24's headline is also "Terror, panic as Israeli strikes wipe out Beirut buildings". I'll change it.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 01:42, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose This particular, single strike is going to be the notable one among many others which are part of the wider conflict. Ultimograph5 (talk) 03:48, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@Ultimograph5 can you clarify? It seems there were multiple strikes in the same location. For example, France24 says "The strikes killed at least two people and injured 76, Lebanon's health ministry said in a preliminary toll." Notice the plural.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 03:57, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@Vice regent I suppose the word "strike" is confusing, France24 seems to be defining "strike" as one bomb while I was referring to the whole event which lasted like a minute. My definition is in line with other articles like Israeli airstrike on the Iranian consulate in Damascus but I'm not sure there's any standard Ultimograph5 (talk) 04:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@Ultimograph5 to clarify then, you'd be ok with "27 September 2024 Beirut attack" as opposed to "27 September 2024 Beirut attacks"? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 04:56, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Support, it is not even confirmed he was killed yet. Also, given the nature of the bombings (attacking apartment blocks), it might be best to go with "attack" same as 13 July 2024 al-Mawasi attack as noted above. </MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont /> 08:43, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Now that it is confirmed he is dead, it still matters that potentially hundreds are dead from airstrikes on apartment blocks in a densely populated suburb. This article probably should just be called Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah (as it actually was when I first replied, IDK why), as I can't think of a not-unwieldy title that incorporates the civilian casualties in it, however we should have another article that goes in depth on the potentially hundreds dead.</MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont />

Support per above. We did not call Deif's attempted assassination "attempted assassination of Mohammed Deif". TwistedAxe 10:39, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Killing is confirmed now but still think we need a separate article on the bombings. Selfstudier (talk) 11:53, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I think this should be its own standalone article too, yes. Although I think we can incorporate both the attack and the assassination in the same article perhaps? Otherwise two separate articles are okay too IMO. TwistedAxe 11:55, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Strong oppose he is dead. No need for more ambiguity which is not in line with alike articles DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 12:03, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Strong oppose, even if civilians were killed in the attack, absolutely the most notable thing here is that Nasrallah has been assassinated, confirmed by Hezbollah. Personisinsterest (talk) 12:04, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Strong supporrt Misplaced Pages should not adopt a belligerent's rationale in the title for an attack that seems likely to have killed dozens Zellfire999 (talk) 12:16, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Move to Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah – With his assassination confirmed, it is now a forgone matter that the most notable event within the scope of this article, and the name by which this event will be known is as the assassination of Hassan Nasrallah. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 13:11, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Note: This was actually the title of the article when I first !voted, did someone move it and then it got reverted whilst this RfC was going on? </MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont /> 13:16, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Move to Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah, per Coffeeandcrumbs above. This is the single most notable and significant aspect of this event, and is commonly described as such by RS. ABHammad (talk) 13:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

POV

Yet again, the background is POV. It mentions Yemeni attacks on Israel, but says nothing about Israeli attacks on Gaza, where it has killed 40,000 people. We've been over this at Talk:September 2024 Lebanon strikes#More background issues.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 21:49, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Minor infobox note

Shouldn’t the little infobox blurb include that this was also a part of the September 2024 Lebanon strikes? The Wikimonger (talk) 00:18, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 September 2024

This edit request to Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Nasrallah is dead. Namnaam (talk) 08:19, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: It's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please put what changes you want made in a "change X to Y" format.</MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont /> 09:12, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Why is this an article?

We still have very little information, the dust still hasn't settled. Either delete this article, rename it or merge it into another article. We still don't know if Nasrallah is dead or not apart from hearsay from the IDF. No evidence has yet been presented by either sides. Disregard this section, Nasrallah has been confirmed dead by Hezbollah themselves in a statement. TwistedAxe 09:46, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Operation named "New Order"

The assassination operation was named "New Order" (Hebrew: "סדר חדש")

Sources:

https://x.com/idfonline/status/1839945167354163378 (IDF Hebrew twitter account)

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-operation-to-kill-nasrallah-was-code-named-new-order/ (Times of Israel news report) Redbeansoup (talk) 11:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Possible to mention the operation code name in the article? Redbeansoup (talk) 11:38, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, very good piece of information to add. You can add it yourself or add it and let someone else polish it. TwistedAxe 11:47, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Can someone transliterate? Bitspectator ⛩️ 11:54, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Done. Should be in the article now. TwistedAxe 12:00, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Hebrew speaker here. I fixed - it's "Seder Hadash". Seder סדר = order, and Hadash חדש = new Galamore (talk) 12:49, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

What happened on October 8?

Please see this discussion, and participate there, and then whatever is decided should be replicated here. Currently there is a WP:V violation in the article.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 12:15, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Are there still any violations in September_2024_Lebanon_strikes#Background? If not, the first part of the Background here should almost be the same. Bitspectator ⛩️ 12:56, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah this looks good. We should also remove the POV tag from that article's background if there are no further objections.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 13:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Lead pov

Very much like, we currently have NPOV violations in the lead. If we're going to put in Netanyahu's comment that Israel "yearns for peace", we should also put the Lebanese PM's comment that "Israeli aggression on Lebanon is a war of extermination". VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 12:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. This war is between Israel and Hezbollah. We can put what Hezbollah leading officials say on this Galamore (talk) 13:01, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

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