Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 07:22, 4 October 2024

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The current trustees occupying "community-selected" seats are Rosiestep, Laurentius, Victoria and Pundit. The Wikimedia Foundation's Lead Manager of Trust and Safety is Jan Eissfeldt.

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This talkpage has been mentioned by a media organization: Matthew Gault (8 December 2021). "Misplaced Pages Editors Very Mad About Jimmy Wales' NFT of a Misplaced Pages Edit". Vice Media. The trouble began when Wales posted an announcement about the auction on his user talk page—a kind of message board where users communicate directly with each other.

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News from India

"The Delhi High Court on Thursday issued a contempt of court notice to Misplaced Pages after ANI claimed that the platform had failed to comply with orders to disclose information on subscribers who made allegedly defamatory edits on ANI's Misplaced Pages page."

For the interested. ANI here is Asian News International. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:45, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

A decent summary of the case can be found in an article by The Hindu here - . Ravensfire (talk) 12:48, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Scroll.in has a decent update:. That WP is a public utility is an interesting idea. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:00, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

This continues to be an interesting case to see how the courts handle a case like this with the 2021 IT Rules, with some (small) parallels to what's happening with X in Brazil. What would stopping Wikimedia from doing business in India involve, beyond cutting off donations? I know the usual Wikimedia playbook around things like this, but will it work in this case with a judge that's already skeptical. Ravensfire (talk) 13:22, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Fundraising was my thought as well. And they can of course go Turkey/Pakistan/China on us. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:24, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

That's the interesting question. There's a decent level of technical knowledge and resources available, can India craft a block that would be effective, with VPN's being the easy answer, and any work-arounds would be quickly shared. It would slow down editing from India, I think, more than it would affect reading. Ravensfire (talk) 13:33, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

The court wants an "authorised representative of Misplaced Pages". Do we have those? "Your honor, I'm pleased to tell you that the WP-communities have started an RFC on Meta intended to authorise a representative, and the result of the discussion will be communicated to you as soon as the discussion has concluded, closed by an independent closer a panel of independent closers, and possibly reopened after a complaint about the close." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:23, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

I snorted soda laughing at this. Fortunately, nothing beyond my pride was affected. Ravensfire (talk) 13:26, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

5 months later: "Your honor, the result of the discussion has been confirmed to be no consensus." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:52, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

"As this is a collaborative process, we invite you and the representatives from ANI to particpate to better clarify the responsilibities involved, the expected qualifications and setup a new process to determine how best to determine our representatives." Ravensfire (talk) 13:58, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

"You have now been blocked for making legal threats, which you are of course free to pursue off-wiki." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:02, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

@Ravensfire Apparently OpIndia is on the case, this will make everything better. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:25, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh thank goodness! All of that relatively even coverage was worrying me. Ravensfire (talk) 17:41, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@Ravensfire, if you have 9 minutes, I thought this video was pretty good: Explained: What’s ANI vs Misplaced Pages legal battle all about? from Newslaundry. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:08, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

That was an interesting video and did a decent job of explaining the situation, the general editing process on Misplaced Pages and the history of the edits on that page, and a few places where ANI's complaint wasn't quite accurate. Thank you. Ravensfire (talk) 15:37, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

It would obviously be unwise of me to comment on any ongoing legal matter without first consulting with the WMF legal team, but rest assured that I'm keeping a close eye on this one.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:06, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Under no circumstances should Misplaced Pages reveal the identities of its editors to a third-world Non-western world government, especially when Misplaced Pages has no presence in that country. Doing so would set a very dangerous precedent. In the future,we might also see countries like North Korea and China demanding the details of editors.

On Talk:2024 Kolkata rape and murder incident, we had an IP user belonging to Hindu Raksha Dal, a violent far right extremist organisation threatening indian editors with legal actions for using the widely reported name of the subject in the article. Ratnahastin (talk) 02:40, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

"Third-world"? Who are first world and second world? These terms are deprecated and are pejorative. Telugujoshi (talk) 05:22, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh I was referring to the non-western world since freedom of speech is having a crisis over there. Rephrashed that. Returning to the topic, I would encourage you to drop this matter. It would be really unfortunate (at least for you) if you got your 15 year old account blocked over this Godi media outlet by making edits like these. Ratnahastin (talk) 13:36, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

That is no better. It is still bigotry. "Non-western world" and "freedom of speech is having a crisis over there"

I don't think there is place for racism and bigotry of any kind on Misplaced Pages. Correct me if I am wrong. Also, please do give me a link so that I can report you for bigotry.

A few counterexamples to your blanket "Non-western world" - Australia, New Zealand both supposedly have "freedom of speech".

If your "freedom of speech" is a dog whistle for freedom to proselytize, then governments which have the mandate of the citizens through fair and free elections, can enact the laws as per what the people want. Telugujoshi (talk) 00:04, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Belated answer, but, yes, freedom of speech does entail the freedom to proselytize. Even when the government of our country does not like it. If people have no freedom to proselytize, then they have no freedom of opinion and of conscience. Also, no freedom of religion. You'll find the argument for it in J.S. Mill's On Liberty, wherein he argued against forbidding a religion he does not like.

E.g. our government does not like Russian propaganda, but it does not arrest people who repeat Russian propaganda. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:52, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

@RatnahastinIs that threat that you are going to get my account blocked? Please do specify what rules I have broken. I am not even contesting the reverts you made. By the way, what is "Godi Media"? I don't understand. Your name, ratnahastin, is not English as far as I know. It looks like it is "from over there" where there is no freedom of speech. Telugujoshi (talk) 01:19, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

The terms aren't really accurate or used any more, User:Telugujoshi. But we are dealing with a regime so criminal and corrupt that it sent to and hired assassins to Canada and USA to murder dissidents. Obviously turning over any names to such a violent lawless regime could lead to physical harm. Surely that's the point here, not some relatively innocuous but dated terminology. Also, it seems a bit much to claim that Western world doesn't include Australia and New Zealand, when our own article says it includes Australia and New Zealand. But I think the more appropriate term these days is Advanced democracy - uh, how is that a redlink? Nfitz (talk) 03:23, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

You have proof of that? If not, stfu, Telugujoshi (talk) 05:51, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

I see no reason to be rude User:Telugujoshi, the role of the Indian government employees was well reported internationally, especially after the release of the US indictment last year in relation to four attempted assasinations (one successful) of dissidents in the USA and Canada. You are missing the point though - the point is the last thing Misplaced Pages should be doing is risking putting the lives of posters in danger of unlawful retaliation. Nfitz (talk) 14:57, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

So "western world" is white folks?! That's exactly why I gave those two examples. Now riddle me this limey. SoKo, Taiwan, Singapore, Japan. Are they western governments or are they little yellow people governments?! Enquiring minds want to know. Boxer revolution is not that far back that many people do remember. You are how old, hain? Don't get all hot under the collar old chap. Blighty is good. Enjoy while the going is good. Telugujoshi (talk) 06:00, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Who or what is stopping you from using the right terms? "a regime so criminal and corrupt"? That "regime" won elections fair and square as per the written constitution of that country. You, a subject of monarchy which has no written constitution, has no right to throw shit at others. Remember Charles I and Cromwell?! Now you are riled by Charles III. Your third rate power has no say. If we Americans as you to jump, you would say "how high massa?" Telugujoshi (talk) 06:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Not that it is a direct substitute for what you were trying to say, but the preferred terms to replace terms like "third world" and "developing nations" are Global North and Global South. "Preferred" as in "more people prefer them to the older terms than prefer the older terms". Nothing will ever make everyone happy, and all such definitions are vast generalisations. MarcGarver (talk) 07:36, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages (including The Signpost)

WP:RSPWP 📌 Generally unreliable +22

2024



Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source because open wikis are self-published sources. This includes articles, non-article pages, The Signpost, non-English Wikipedias, Misplaced Pages Books, and Misplaced Pages mirrors; see WP:CIRCULAR for guidance. Occasionally, inexperienced editors may unintentionally cite the Misplaced Pages article about a publication instead of the publication itself; in these cases, fix the citation instead of removing it. Although citing Misplaced Pages as a source is against policy, content can be copied between articles with proper attribution; see WP:COPYWITHIN for instructions. Telugujoshi (talk) 03:45, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages itself is unreliable. Your watching or unwatching is irrelevant. Heal thyself first, who ever you are. You are not that important in the larger scheme of things not withstanding your co-founding of unreliable (as per editors) Misplaced Pages. Your founding is also contested. You didn't complete your PhD from a second rate university. That speaks volumes. But then I am a nobody - not even a page on this unreliable Misplaced Pages.

It is very sad to say the least. Misplaced Pages STEM pages,especially Mathematics and Computer Science (my PhD - yes I did write a thesis that too from one of the top five departments in the US), are excellent.

Please don't let your slavishness to the perfidious albion stop you from what is right. Telugujoshi (talk) 03:58, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Telugujoshi has been indefinitely blocked for personal attacks and harassment. Cullen328 (talk) 17:19, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

1. https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/noida-news/ghaziabad-police-may-invoke-nsa-against-hindu-raksha-dal-leader-101723401345231.html
2. https://www.hindurakshadal.org/media/downloads/gmail---representation-to-national-task-force-for-doctor-safety--submitted-by-hindu-raksha-dal.pdf

WP ordered by an Indian court again, on a different issue:. Some discussion on this at Talk:2024 Kolkata rape and murder incident. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Will Indian Courts Tame Misplaced Pages? Time will tell. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:28, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/India-related_articles#The_Kolkata_"case",_wider_implications? For the interested. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:41, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Matthew Parish

The attempt by Matthew Parish bring a libel claim against the Wikimedia Foundation in England and Wales was dismissed by Judge Karen Steyn. This seems to have been a WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT response by Parish, who did not like his Misplaced Pages article mentioning his three year prison sentence for fraud in Switzerland. ♦IanMacM♦ 18:29, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Blimey. Makes us lowly editors feel like Wiki vigilantes. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:16, 12 September 2024 (UTC) (p.s. can he get me mate off a driving ban? He says his missus was driving)

Quote from An article about yourself isn't necessarily a good thing: "Misplaced Pages seeks neutrality. An article about you written by anyone must be editorially neutral. It will not take sides and will report both the good and the bad about you from verifiable and reliable sources. It will not promote you. It will not right great wrongs. It will not always favour the truth. It will just contain factual information about you from independent, reliable sources." The article and talk page history of Matthew Parish suggest that somebody did not understand this. It is also worth looking at Judge Karen Steyn's comments when dismissing the libel claim, saying that Parish had made "‘egregious breaches of the duty of full and frank disclosure’ including that he had lived and worked abroad for the past two decades and his ‘extensive connections’ with Switzerland which ‘resulted in the court being misled’."--♦IanMacM♦ 19:44, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Who mentioned dodgy anon IPs?? We all need a little cosy hideaway sometimes! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:01, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

If you want a laugh, read this by Parish about me. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:34, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Wow. "Either they will correct themselves, or they must be exposed to its consequences"!! I hear Cheltenham is lovely at this time of the year. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:39, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I can work for 24 hours, so my time punch card is pretty all used, even if all my edits are from the same town. I have to add that I sleep for 12 hours afterwards, so I'm not lacking sleep. tgeorgescu (talk) 15:16, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the 15 minutes I've just spent waying WTF?!? over and over. And this is purportedly an intelligent person. I can't decide if it's the entitlement or the blatantly wrong information (I mean, "seems to work virtually 24/7" when it's trivial to show otherwise?!?) that is more offensive. As you said, good for the laughs! Almost as bad as some of the Jeffrey Cutler nonsense ( - edit, replaced with more current list of demands, over 100 now). Ravensfire (talk) 14:42, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

in the Misplaced Pages system administrators have the capacity permanently to delete material about themselves on their own pages; and this is what has happened to the written exchange complaining to "Cordless Larry" about his insertion of defamatory information.
Except for the fact that it's avaliable to anyone at User talk:Cordless Larry/Archive 19#Recent amendments to Matthew Parish - reversed.
The rest is really more of the same. — Qwerfjkltalk 17:22, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

The Signpost: 26 September 2024

• In the media: Courts order Misplaced Pages to give up names of editors, legal strain anticipated from "online safety laws"

• Community view: Indian courts order Misplaced Pages to take down name of crime victim, editors strive towards consensus

• Serendipity: A Wikipedian at the 2024 Paralympics

• Opinion: asilvering's RfA debriefing

• News and notes: Are you ready for admin elections?

• Gallery: Are Luddaites defending the English Misplaced Pages?

• Recent research: Article-writing AI is less "prone to reasoning errors (or hallucinations)" than human Misplaced Pages editors

• Traffic report: Jump in the line, rock your body in time

Clarification requested on past policy implications(hypothetical appeal process for users potentially previously banned by Jimbo)

Hello Jimbo (and everybody else watching). So, in April 2022, Jimbo voluntarily waived his reserve authority to unilaterally place site bans on editors. In the Village Pump discussion where this decision was made, it was noted that the latest ban he was known to place occurred in late 2011 toward TimidGuy, which was overturned early in 2012 by ArbCom. Previously, on the guide to appealing blocks, the section describing procedure on banned users had a bullet point stating “Users banned by Jimbo Wales must appeal either to him or the Arbitration Committee.” In light of his waiving of banning authority, I amended it over a year later to state “Users banned by Jimbo Wales prior to April 2022 must appeal to the Arbitration Committee,” as he therefore no longer had the power to personally place bans, and by extension, solely consider placed bans without requiring consultation from ArbCom.

This leads me to a question for the community. Considering that Jimbo’s latest issued ban was overturned on appeal, what is the latest known ban placed by Jimbo that remains in effect? Because theoretically, it would follow that there are bans that have been issued by Jimbo that can no longer be appealed directly to him solely as the issuer due to subsequent change in policy, only to ArbCom, whether that route has not yet been exhausted even once or has/can theoretically lodge another appeal years later following an unsuccessful one, barring global ban (even after all these years). While such a return to appeal would be highly unlikely and/or only applicable to few, the remote possibility would therefore justify retaining that guideline due to such examples still existing. Regardless, what would the latest example be? Figured this was worth asking if the guideline is still in place, if such users are still impacted by the terms of their bans and require access to updated appeal procedures in case of the remote possibility. Some food for thought so there’s no ambiguity. Figured it was a good idea to have that particular point formally discussed on that end. DrewieStewie (talk) 09:40, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

So, I doubt if a comprehensive list is even possible, as there is likely to be a fair amount of ambiguity. Making the usual distinction between a block and a ban, I'm sure that back in the day I did a fair number of blocks of a fairly routine nature as a part of ordinary work as an admin, and those wouldn't be considered in any way special. I very much doubt there were any 'bans' since 2011. I think a perfectly fine way forward would be to simply remove the line completely as I don't think it really applies to anyone, and it seems unlikely to cause any problems one way or the other. I don't see much of a reason to have guidelines to cover hypothetical but very unlikely situations!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:22, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press