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This article was nominated for deletion on 21 April 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: Dentler, Jonathan (November 2009). "Sexing the Jewish Body: Male Menstruation Libel and the Making of Modern Gender". Columbia University Libraries. doi:10.7916/D8H420D6. Retrieved 12 December 2020. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help) Resnick, Irven M. (July 2000). "Medieval Roots of the Myth of Jewish Male Menses". The Harvard Theological Review. 93 (3). Cambridge University Press on behalf of the Harvard Divinity School: 241–263. doi:10.1017/S0017816000025323. JSTOR 1510030. S2CID 162994525. Retrieved 12 December 2020. Katz, David S. (November 1999). "Shylock's Gender: Jewish Male Menstruation in Early Modern England". The Review of English Studies. 50 (200). Oxford University Press: 440–462. doi:10.1093/res/50.200.440. JSTOR 517391. Retrieved 12 December 2020. Gilman, Sander (1998). Creating Beauty to Cure the Soul. Duke University Press. p. 86. ISBN 9780822321446. Retrieved 12 December 2020. Gilman discusses the effect of ideas of race and gender such as male menstruation on the self-reflection and theories of Sigmund Freud and others.

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Wiki Education assignment: Jewish Life from Napoleon to Hitler

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 January 2023 and 21 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Acargasacchi (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Acargasacchi (talk) 18:45, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Extinct pagan antisemitic tropes?

I wonder if it would be a good idea to include anti-Jewish tropes that were used in pre-Christian times. The reason they're not in the article now is because most of them fell dramatically out of favor after Christianity caught on.

E.g., at one point it was extremely common to attack Jews as disloyal for not engaging in emperor worship like most other civilizations did. Since Christianity also rejects emperor worship, this line of attack mostly died out when paganism did. Similarly, circumcision was frequently invoked by Greeks and Romans to portray Jewish men as sexually abnormal; this trope lost most of its appeal with the rise of Christianity (which worships a circumcised savior) and even more so Islam (which actually adopted the practice for itself). Pagans also ridiculed the Jews for looking to messiah figures for salvation, which is ironic since Christians would later do the _exact_ opposite by attacking the Jews for rejecting Jesus as messiah.

Since these archaic forms of antisemitism mostly went extinct, it might seem less relevant to include them in the article now. The only time they appear nowadays is in the rhetoric of some fringe-y neopagan types, particularly those with a Nietzschean bent like Bronze Age Pervert.

However, including these early antisemitic tropes would certainly help illustrate just how very _different_ classical (pagan) society and its mores were from ours. In a lot of ways, secular modernity has more in common with Christendom than either of them do with your typical ancient pagan society. (This, incidentally, is one of the things that really irks guys like BAP). 2600:1014:B091:1360:255F:B007:8DDA:5509 (talk) 06:03, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

It seems within scope and reasonable to include material on this. Yes, prejudice and therefore tropes did not begin only with Christendom. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:08, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

By the way, Romans attacked Christians just as much as Jews for not worshipping the emperor -- sometimes even more so, since such practices by Jews were sometimes tolerated if they were following their ancestral religion, while Christians would not receive the same benefit of the doubt if they were perceived as practicing a new or innovated religion (in Roman eyes, a new religion was much more suspect than an ancestral one). AnonMoos (talk) 03:25, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

P.S. Both Jews and Christians were sometimes called "atheists" by ancient Greco-Romans, in the sense of refusing to recognize the deities involved in various social and political rituals... AnonMoos (talk) 14:10, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

"Well poisoning hoax"

someone should add a section here about Israeli poisoning of Palestinian wells and causing widespread sickness and death

page for reference = https://en.wikipedia.org/Well_poisoning#:~:text=Israel%20poisoned%20the%20wells%20and,that%20was%20foiled%20by%20the

Thank you FelixRicher (talk) 19:05, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Having seen your message, it is clear that article has exactly served its purpose. Steven1991 (talk) 23:48, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Changing source on well poisoning hoax

Is it possible to choose a different source for the summary on the well poisoning hoax (the 14th citation)? I believe the citation leads to a pro-Zionist website; another article published from them covering a university student rally used the word genocide in quotations (to deny its occurance). Throwaway200 (talk) 20:06, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Throwaway200, reliable sources are allowed to have their own point of view, and favoring Zionism does not lead to the conclusion that the source is unreliable, any more than a published source opposing Zionism means that source is unreliable. Nor does calling into question the point of view that Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza render a source unreliable. Cullen328 (talk) 03:38, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean by "pro-Zionist"? Steven1991 (talk) 01:30, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Minor clarifications regarding Demonization in other religions or movements

The word "insecurity" is in quotes, but I'm having problems finding where in the 3 given sources it's specifically used.

Secondly, can I remove the links in who & accused? They read as clear WP:EASTEREGGS. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 17:39, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

His Jewish community or the Jewish community?

The article currently reads: "The UC rejected AJC's criticisms as "distortion" and "obscurations", especially by Mose Durst, a convert from Judaism who became the president of the Unification Church of the United States, who accused his Jewish community of "insecurity" and being "hateful".

I changed the possessive pronoun to "the" so the last sentence would read "who accused the Jewish community". Steven changed it back commenting "Mose Durst was Jewish: https://www.dialogueireland.ie/dicontent/resources/dciarchive/zinterviewdurst.html. A Jew is both a racial and religious identity". Well I would say it's both an ethnic and religious identity (and also cultural) rather than "racial" - but in any case it's irrelevant since regardless of whether or not they are part of the community one would more commonly use the article "the" rather than a possessive pronoun. Wellington Bay (talk) 17:51, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I think I'm having problems parsing the sentence as a whole. Is it saying the UC rejected criticisms made by Mose Durst or criticisms of Mose Durst? I assume the latter due to his membership, but I've read this sentence ~20 times & am still confused.

To now comment directly on your question though, was the accusation specifically directed towards his local community or the Jewish community as a whole? Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 18:05, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I was about to add that the passage is very poorly written and confusing. I'm trying to figure out which source actually mentions Durst. Wellington Bay (talk) 18:21, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

They're name dropped here & wrote this. Sources 326 & 327 respectively. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 18:29, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I think the passage means by Durst as per this article by him - the problem is the quoted words "insecurity" and "hateful" appear nowhere in this source, nor does this source mention Rabbi Rudin at all so it's not clear it is a response to him. Nor does the Time Magazine article that mentions Durst use these words so it appears we have quotations that are not properly sourced or that are not in the source that they are attributed to. I'm going to remove the passage about Durst - if someone can find an actual quote by him in response to the AJC's criticisms they can put him and the correct quotes back in. Wellington Bay (talk) 18:35, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

For the poor phrasing, it is regretful and I apologise for it. Steven1991 (talk) 20:11, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

The passage also says "Despite the UC's claims, Sun Myung Moon held an interfaith march with Louis Farrakhan, the most influential antisemite in America, in Washington D.C." - The claim that Farrakhan is the "most influential antisemite in America" needs to be attributed, otherwise it's an assertion by wikipedia itself. This appears to be an editorial comment by whichever Misplaced Pages editor added it as none of the cited sources make this claim. The closest I can find is Abraham Foxman calling him an "unrepentant bigot" in the Washington Post article and the NY Times article stating "Mr. Farrakhan, whom critics denounce as a race-baiter and anti-Semite" but neither article says he is the "most influential antisemite" in the US. I think it may be necessary to go through this article carefully and check it against the sources since it appears editors have been inserting their own editorial comments. Wellington Bay (talk) 18:57, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

@Steven1991: It looks like you added the claim that Farrakhan is the "most influential antisemite in America" Was this an editorial comments or is it in one of the sources that's cited at the end of the sentence? I couldn't find it in any of the sources which leads me to remind you not to insert your personal views or editorial comments into Misplaced Pages articles. If someone did say this about Farrakhan than it needs to be attributed and you can't write as if this is a fact asserted by Misplaced Pages, you should say something like "Farrakhan, whom X describes as the 'most influential antisemite in America'". Please read the WP:NPOV policy as well as WP:V. Wellington Bay (talk) 19:08, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Scare quotes

@Steven1991: Can you please stop using scare quotes ie Messianic "Jews". Your edit note says "but “Messianic Judaism” is not considered as Judaism but an Evangelical Christian movement – this is discussed in its relevant Misplaced Pages article." If you read the article Messianic Judaism you will see that the article isn't titled Messianic "Judiaism" and doesn't put Jews or Judaism in scare quotes at all. Scare quotes are a way of editorialising and expressing scorn and should be avoided as POV. Some ultraorthodox reject the state of Israel as contrary to the belief that there cannot be a state before the Messiah returns. Does this mean we should be writing "Israel" in scare quotes? Most Christians believe the Mormons are a heretical un-Christian sect. Does that mean we should write Church of "Jesus Christ" and Latter-Day Saints? Please try to write neutrally. Wellington Bay (talk) 20:32, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

In the context of their own articles, scare quotes are not appropriate. However, when they are placed in other articles not directly related, quotes are sometimes needed to avoid causing confusion or granting the objects legitimacy we are not supposed to. I believe that not a few folks would say that it is wrong to put National Socialism in quotation when it shows up in articles not directly related to Nazism. Whether quote use is not neutral, it depends on context, and sometimes individual perceptions. Steven1991 (talk) 20:38, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I understand your concern, but simply state my points. If such quote use is not desirable, then – yes – due attention can be paid in future edits, but it doesn’t mean that such quote use is inherently a form of editorialisation. Journalists regularly use quotation marks for different subjects/objects they are reporting. Does it mean they are biased? Yes, many of them are. However, it is also important to note that the impact of such quote use ought not to be exaggerated. Steven1991 (talk) 20:43, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Does it mean they may be* Steven1991 (talk) 20:46, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

"Journalists regularly use quotation marks for different subjects/objects they are reporting." - that's quoting - as I've just done. Scare quotes are "quotation marks used around a word or phrase when they are not required, thereby eliciting attention or doubts", according to the online OED. Our own article on scare quotes says "Scare quotes (also called shudder quotes, and sneer quotes,) are quotation marks that writers place around a word or phrase to signal that they are using it in an ironic, referential, or otherwise non-standard sense. Scare quotes may indicate that the author is using someone else's term, similar to preceding a phrase with the expression "so-called"; they may imply skepticism or disagreement, belief that the words are misused, or that the writer intends a meaning opposite to the words enclosed in quotes. Whether quotation marks are considered scare quotes depends on context because scare quotes are not visually different from actual quotations. The use of scare quotes is sometimes discouraged in formal or academic writing." Wellington Bay (talk) 20:55, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

As I said, I acknowledge your POV and have agreed to pay attention to the quote use. I understand that you don’t see it that way, but am simply asserting my points. I know that you will not agree given the fundamental differences on this issue or more, so I don’t see the meaning of repeating the same points. I have said everything I need to regarding this specific matter. Steven1991 (talk) 21:28, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Number & quality of sources

There are way too many citations being used to support the same sentences throughout this article. We shouldn't even have citations in the opening, yet the first paragraph alone has 8, 7 of which are for the the same sentence. Mind you, some parts then triple that, with this sentence

"Jersey City Shooting (7 dead and 3 injured) and Monsey Hanukkah stabbing (1 dead and 4 injured)."

clocking in at 26 inline citations.

Furthermore, the quality of sourcing is severely lacking with sources ranging from a lack of attribution (ADL, Newsweek, Washington Examiner, MEMRITV, National Review, The Daily Beast), unreliability (Free Beacon, Jewish Virtual Library, New York Post, The Federalist, Rolling Stone, Fox News), or never should've been cited at all (Heritage Foundation).

This is by no means an exhaustive look through, but I think these problems are more then enough to warrant concern, especially for an article like this. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 22:13, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I would say whether a piece of news is reliable it should depend on content rather than source. Dismissing an entire report based on a source is not neutral or objective itself. Steven1991 (talk) 23:04, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes we should dismiss reports depending on their quality & reputation, that's the point of classifying reliable sources. Regardless though, we do not source statements in WP:WIKIVOICE from the Heritage Foundation, let alone as an authority on antisemitism. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 23:15, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

OK. I see your point. Steven1991 (talk) 23:44, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Just to make sure that it would not fall into the trap of ad hominem, then it would be fine. Personally, I prefer the BBC, Guardian, Politico, Washington Post etc., when it comes to something not regional-specific. Otherwise, less “mainstream” sources have to be used.Steven1991 (talk) 23:46, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

agree this article is a mess and needs significant copy editting and fixing at this point. sourcing is a mess as well Bluethricecreamman (talk) 04:10, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

boldly did revert back to last good version. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 04:14, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Please do not remove content or templates from pages on Misplaced Pages without giving a valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. Your content removal does not appear to be constructive and has been reverted. If you only meant to make a test edit, please use your sandbox for that. Thank you. Steven1991 (talk) 05:32, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think WP:TNT is merited here. There are some improvements mixed in with the unreliable sources and other editors who are established editors making edits. Let's all try to AGF and actually constructively improve given that Steven1991 has agreed to channel his energies into policy-abiding improvements. Andre🚐 06:25, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Coming back from the noticeboards, I have to say that @Bluethricecreamman's report was in no way meritless & I would ask you to show a little more respect then to question their "maturity". While @Steven1991 has said they're willing to collaborate & I appreciate that, they've spent more time throwing around aspersions.

As I said before, this wasn't TNT, this article was not completely scrapped. It was only reverted to a more neutral version. If any useful edits were undone, we can add them back later, but right now this article's current state is worse then it was before. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 07:23, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

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