Talk:Israeli apartheid: Difference between revisions

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	::::::::Framing the current situation as apartheid in WP:VOICE, solely based on the views of human rights groups whose worldviews increasingly diverge from Western mainstream perspectives, is problematic and has no real impact on the ground. There is a clear reason why the Western world, the only part of the world that actually cares for human rights, including not just governments but also major news outlets, has not endorsed these apartheid allegations—and that is what truly matters in reality. The only countries that endorsed the claims of apartheid (and genocide, and ethnic cleansing, and all the other terms commonly used in recent propaganda) are, ironically, countries like Iran and Syria, which are not very known for their human rights record. ] (]) 12:18, 7 October 2024 (UTC)		::::::::Framing the current situation as apartheid in WP:VOICE, solely based on the views of human rights groups whose worldviews increasingly diverge from Western mainstream perspectives, is problematic and has no real impact on the ground. There is a clear reason why the Western world, the only part of the world that actually cares for human rights, including not just governments but also major news outlets, has not endorsed these apartheid allegations—and that is what truly matters in reality. The only countries that endorsed the claims of apartheid (and genocide, and ethnic cleansing, and all the other terms commonly used in recent propaganda) are, ironically, countries like Iran and Syria, which are not very known for their human rights record. ] (]) 12:18, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::You completely ignored the point we just discussed about governments not being reliable sources. ] ] 12:26, 7 October 2024 (UTC)		:::::::::You completely ignored the point we just discussed about governments not being reliable sources. ] ] 12:26, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::You completely ignored the point that the entire western world rejects the claims, rendering the views of (politicized/radicalized) human rights organizations irrelevant for many. If we want to comply with WP:NPOV, as we're supposed, we cannot use WP:VOICE to make claims that are rejected by all the vast majority of those who actually care for human rights. ] (]) 12:30, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

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This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:

Keep per WP:SNOW, 21 August 2010, see discussion.
No consensus, 11 June 2008, see discussion.
No consensus, 4 September 2007, see discussion.
Speedy keep, 26 June 2007, see discussion.
No consensus, 24 April 2007, see discussion.
Keep, 4 April 2007, see discussion.
No consensus, 11 August 2006, see discussion.
Speedy keep, 15 July 2006, see discussion.
No consensus, 3 June 2006, see discussion.

This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

Israel and apartheid → Israeli apartheid, Moved, 20 July 2024, see discussion.
Israel and the apartheid analogy → Israel and apartheid, Moved, 24 July 2022, see discussion.
Israel and the apartheid analogy → Israeli apartheid allegation, No consensus, 4 December 2021, see discussion.
Israel and the apartheid analogy → Israel and apartheid, Withdrawn per WP:SNOW, 3 May 2021, see discussion.
Israel and the apartheid analogy → Claims of Israeli apartheid, No consensus, 8 June 2017, see discussion.
Israel and the apartheid analogy → Israeli apartheid analogy, No consensus due to procedural issue, 29 May 2017, see discussion.

Older discussions:

Israel and the apartheid analogy → ?, Not moved, 12 January 2017, see discussion.
Israel and the apartheid analogy → Israeli apartheid, Not moved, 13 January 2011, see discussion.
Israel and the apartheid analogy → Israel and apartheid , No consensus, 20 August 2010, see discussion.
Israel and the apartheid analogy → Allegations of Israeli apartheid, No consensus, 3 May 2009, see discussion.
Allegations of Israeli apartheid → Apartheid controversy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, No consensus, 28 August 2007, see discussion.
Allegations of Israeli apartheid → Apartheid controversy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, No consensus, 17 August 2007, see discussion.
Allegations of Israeli apartheid → Israeli apartheid, No consensus, 16 March 2007, see discussion.
Allegations of Israeli apartheid → Israeli apartheid, Not moved, 14 December 2006, see discussion.
Allegations of Israeli apartheid → Israeli apartheid, Not moved, 6 October 2006, see discussion.
Israeli apartheid → Allegations of Israeli apartheid, Move, 26 June 2006, see discussion.

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This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:

Haviv Rettig Gur (16 May 2010). "Israeli-Palestinian conflict rages on Misplaced Pages". The Jerusalem Post.
Omer Benjakob (26 November 2020). "On Misplaced Pages, Israel Is Losing the Battle Against the Word 'Apartheid'". Haaretz.
Hava Mendelle (March 23, 2024). "The World Jewish Congress investigates Misplaced Pages". Spectator Australia. Retrieved March 23, 2024.
Yaakov Menken (August 6, 2024). "Misplaced Pages hates Israel and Jews". Jewish News Syndicate. Retrieved August 6, 2024.

For a list of references that may be useful when improving this article in the future, please see Talk:Allegations of Israeli apartheid/RS.

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ICJ and apartheid

The issue of what the ICJ opinion really means regarding racial segregation versus apartheid is unclear from the opinion itself and this is why so-called RSs can't agree on it. However, the matter is discussed at length in the separate opinions. See in particular the opinions of Brant, Iwasawa, Nolte, Salam and Tladi. I read somewhere the suggestion that the lack of elucidation on this point in the official opinion was so that more judges would sign up to it. None of the judges argued against the ruling that Israel is in violation of Para 3 of CERD, but they did not agree on exactly what that means regarding apartheid. Hopefully we will soon get learned articles in law journals that we can cite. Zero 03:40, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Germany’s Reaction to the International Court of Justice’s Palestine Advisory Opinion: 'The Opinion Confirms Our Positioning in Many Points' On the particular point:- "The International Court of Justice has established that certain human rights obligations apply to Israel, including in relation to the occupied territories. It has established a violation of Article 3 of the Convention on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, which prohibits racial segregation and apartheid. However, … the ICJ has not decided on one of the two options." Selfstudier (talk) 19:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

'Racial Segregation and Apartheid' in the ICJ Palestine Advisory Opinion We now have some more detailed legal analysis. Confirms "a breach of Article 3 could refer to racial segregation, apartheid, or both. This is seen in the Separate Opinions, some of which considered the finding of a breach of Article 3 as a finding of apartheid; others believing the Court had not made such a finding." Also, as regards the still ongoing CERD proceedings "CERD has yet to reach a final decision in this case. With a strong finding of a breach of Article 3 from the ICJ and several judicial opinions interpreting this as a finding of apartheid, this may well create a platform for CERD to determine the issue." & "The questions put by UNGA to the Court ‘concern Israel’s "discriminatory legislation and measures" under international human rights law and not apartheid as an international crime." "the Opinion considered that the Apartheid Convention and Rome Statute 'can inform the interpretation of Article 3 of CERD'". Selfstudier (talk) 15:44, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Advisory Opinion of the International Court of Justice on the Legal Consequences of Israel's Policies and Practices in the "Occupied Palestinian Territory" "For example, regarding whether Israel’s policies and practices amount to apartheid, the Court stated that Israel violates the prohibition on racial segregation and apartheid set in the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (CERD), but did not specify which elements of the article Israel violated. In separate declarations they published, some of the majority Judges explicitly state that Israel is implementing an apartheid policy, while others assert that the Court did not make such a determination or that there is no basis for such a claim. Selfstudier (talk) 16:12, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I would personally deprioritize German and Israeli sources. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:38, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

These aren't direct government sources, but legal professors, thinks tanks – the usual commentators. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:54, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

The German source above is an official statement by the German spokesperson for the Federal Foreign Office, while the other Israeli source is the Israel Democracy Institute which has every interest in downplaying the ICJ ruling. Just as I wouldn't trust a South African think tank or US government in the 1980s to comment on apartheid in SA. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:48, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

No, it's reporting and commentary on it by a professor. Check it. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:54, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Though specifically quoting the German government on page obviously wouldn't be particularly useful. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:55, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not saying they are good sources, and there are certainly caveats that would be worth discussing in their use, but your initial statement was cavalier. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:57, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

True, but since these two examples hold fringe opinions they should not be taken as seriously as the rest of the sources. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:16, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

The "best" one (in the sense of having the deeper analysis, not just the opinion but how it relates to the ongoing CERD case) is the second one but the others are not "bad". What we are seeing is a slow but steady accumulation of material explaining the advisory opinion as it relates to this particular article. There are two salient points I would say, the first being that only certain of the ICJ judges have said that the breach of Article 3 constitutes apartheid and that what the various judges have said may well have some impact on the ongoing CERD case and the outcome there.

At any rate it is quite clear that some commentators jumped the gun, notably HRW, altho it was only a press release. Selfstudier (talk) 09:39, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

A more authoritative update from HRW. Selfstudier (talk) 16:40, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

What may turn out to be more important as time goes on, is the attitude of third states to the advisory opinion and whether they consider themselves bound to act on it. Opinion formers such as Archbishop of Canterbury urges nations to respect ICJ opinion on Israeli occupation have a role to play there, see as well UK should stop arming Israel after ICJ advisory ruling, top lawyer says. Also see Implications of the ICJ Advisory Opinion for the EU-Israel Association Agreement. Selfstudier (talk) 09:51, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Diakonia summary gives quotes from some of the judges on the subject. Selfstudier (talk) 17:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The ad hoc conciliation commission has produced its report/appendices, available Report, App 1 and App 2. We will have to wait for secondary reporting filtering it all but the recommendations look a lot like giving up and passing the buck to CERD/UNSC, that's just my opinion tho. Selfstudier (talk) 13:13, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Report seems to also say that Israel is in breach of article 3 of the convention in both its apartheid and racial segregation aspects: "44. The commission, having considered the serious allegations raised by the State of Palestine under article 3 of the Convention regarding discriminatory practices and policies of racial discrimination and apartheid committed by Israeli authorities, recalls that in recommendations addressed to Israel, the Committee has urged the State party to take immediate measures to prohibit and eradicate such policies or practices which severely and disproportionately affect the Palestinian population in the Occupied Palestinian Territory and which violate the provisions of article 3 of the Convention." Makeandtoss (talk) 17:13, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I did notice that slightly ambiguous wording, I think CERD itself, (rather than the conciliation commission, whose job really was to get the sides to reconcile), needs to step up here and clarify the state of play having regard to ICJ AO. We'll see. Selfstudier (talk) 17:23, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Move

So how does this work now? Can I have the honor of moving the page? @SafariScribe: Makeandtoss (talk) 09:08, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Needs admin to move it, requested. Selfstudier (talk) 09:11, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss, Selfstudier has answered you. Also, you can't move the page because you are WP:INVOLVED, hence it must require another editor in a good standing (also not involved) to move the article. The move was delayed because it is a contentious topic that will only require an admin to move the article. Cheers! Safari Scribe 11:23, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Social stratification

Do we have any content on the social stratification; the hierarchal rights of Palestinians of GZ, EJ, WB, Israel, and the diaspora? Makeandtoss (talk) 10:53, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Try the Amnesty report Section 5 p61 et seq. Selfstudier (talk) 13:40, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Old moves template

I noticed that the most recent move is noted in its own banner at the top of this Talk, separated from the list of other moves several banners above it. Would someone be willing to rectify this? (Or is this intentional? for some reason I'm not grasping?) I would do it myself but I don't quite understand how the {{old moves}} template works. It also looks like the discussion links all need to be updated. --Pinchme123 (talk) 19:36, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Half done. Thanks. There is still work to do regarding the links. Template:Article history should be used. —Alalch E. 09:50, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Lede

@GhostOfNoMan: Can you explain your edits and its relation to your edit summary? Makeandtoss (talk) 12:04, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah, my apologies – I realise now you were introducing the change and the diff in that discussion was your self-rv. I thought I was reinstating the agreed-upon wording; I should've read more carefully. I've undone my edit. GhostOfNoMan 12:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

@GhostOfNoMan: Thanks. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:50, 30 September 2024 (UTC)