Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:38, 19 April 2005

Names of languages - name of the article

merge & redirect to Bokmaal and Nynorsk? -- Tarquin 16:44 Jan 6, 2003 (UTC)

How about Misplaced Pages:Use other languages sparingly? There is a fine English word for Bokmål and that is "Dano-Norwegian" (). Couldn't Norwegian language, Bokmaal and Nynorsk and this article all be merged, since they are added together less than half a page? --Gabbe 13:17 Jan 16, 2003 (UTC)

"Dano-Norwegian" does not seem to please everyone, and "New-Norwegian" sounds a little awkward. I do not claim to understand the political implications (being not Norwegian despite my username), but would suggest that, in the interest of peace and NPOV, we should return to using "Bokmål" and "Nynorsk". Misplaced Pages:Use other languages sparingly is fine and well, but if the use of English terms causes political or NPOV debates (and besides, I doubt that they are widely used and/or well known) it seems appropriate not to use them. Finally, the article is still a bit stubby and it would be a great idea to have it developed some more (perhaps by a Norwegian?) Kosebamse 14:55 Feb 17, 2003 (UTC)

And it is not "Norwegian" and "New Norwegian". Both of the variants (Bokmål and Nynorsk) are Norwegian. - Gustavf Mon Feb 17 16:40:49 CET 2003

I rewrote the part about Bokål and Nynorsk. Gustavf Mon Feb 17 17:05:17 CET 2003

Thanks a lot. Much more informative now and nicely written.Kosebamse 21:37 Feb 17, 2003 (UTC)

The terms "Dano-Norwegian" and "New Norwegian" are the official terms in English for Bokmål and Nynorsk whether it pleases people or not. It is those terms that's used in one of the articles refered to at the end of the page (and so used by the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs). Mendalus 15:15, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

For the record. The ISO 639 standard lists a number of language names in both English and French. Norwegian Bokmål and Norwegian Nynorsk are the first alternatives. The US Library of Congress MARC Code List for Languages use the names Bokmål and Nynorsk. There shouldn't be any reason to confuse matters with Dano-Norwegian or New Norwegian Ynh 15:02, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I dont know much about norwegian, but i think that any ISO standard should overide any "rule" which is not official and certainly does not have consensus. The bellman 23:12, 2004 Nov 2 (UTC)

There should be some mention of the guy in the photo in the article itself. Who is he? Tuf-Kat

A typical speaker of the Norwegian language, one must presume -- Egil 14:56 May 2, 2003 (UTC)

It is Ivar Aasen, the founder of Nynorsk (New Norwegian) but I see that somebody has added text to the picture now. :) Mendalus 15:12, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

80.202.68.22, as the matter has caused considerable debate earlier, I would like to ask you what you mean by "Dano-Norwegian" as "official english translation" for Bokmål.Can there be such a thing as an official name for a language in another language? Kosebamse 22:34 May 8, 2003 (UTC)

It seems that "Dano-Norwegian" is used in official documents. See for instance this information from the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs: http://odin.dep.no/odin/engelsk/norway/history/032005-990497/index-dok000-b-n-a.html - Gustavf Mon May 19 2003 08:00 UTC

8/20/2003 If I may ask, what is the language used in old Norwegian Tingboks? Some of these probat records I am investigating date back to the 1600s. I cannot find any word translation charts or dictionaries anywhere for them? deanhostager@mediaone.net

My best guess is Danish, as Norway was a part of Denmark at that time. See article History of Norway. -- Gustavf 06:26, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Actually, Norway have never been a "part of Denmark", but in union with Denmark.

I notice that the word "Landsmål" doesn't occur in this article at all. My reading leads me to believe that it is an outdated name for Nynorsk. But since this article tells me that Riksmål and Bokmål are not as synonymous as I previously thought, it would be nice if it were discussed here as well. Hippietrail 08:22, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

You couldn't possibly have chosen a better looking color for the information box, or what Mulad? ;) 80.202.94.81 07:09, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Regarding use of "Dano-Norwegian", I would rather see the proper Norwegian names for periods and forms of the language used. To people who know the language, these terms have meaning. The Norwegian government probably uses "Dano-Norwegian" in English documents to make matters easier for people who don't speak Norwegian: Somehow I suspect most of us who are viewing this page on Misplaced Pages have some basis in the language. I doubt many people unversed in Scandinavian languages and history are wading through this sort of topic in the middle of the night.

Otherwise, I am very impressed by this effort. It is the best overview of the evolution of Bokmål and Nynorsk I have read in English.

The last edit states that Norwegian spoken language consists of many different dialects, the majority of which is closer to Nynorsk than to Bokmål, while the previous edit says however, the dialects used in the capital, eastern and southern Norway was ignored. These are two rather radical and completely opposite statements. Can any of them be documented? Otherwise, I think that both statements should be removed. --SAB 13:46, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

http://www.hivolda.no/index.php?ID=11686 states that 70-75 per cent of the Norwegian population speak a dialect "more closely represented by Nynorsk than Bokmål". Ivar Aasen didn't "ignore" eastern and southern Norway, although he paid little attention to the heavily Danish-influenced language spoken in the city centers. Even today most dialects in southern Norway and the traditional dialects of eastern Norway are much closer to Nynorsk. However, in the urban areas around the capital Oslo, these traditional dialects are being replaced by a spoken variant of Bokmål. An in-depth article explaining the Norwegian dialects is needed, I think. contrapuncti 18:10, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

I restructured the article as it was quite difficult to follow. Also tried to make more clear the difference between Landsmål and modern Nynorsk. contrapuncti 11:04, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

I removed the highly controversial label "Standard Norwegian" (on the Dano-Norwegian Bokmål). Also, the only meaning of the "Landsmaal" in question was "National language" -- what evil tongues "meant" it to be, is irrelevant. Ei røyst i øydemarki 23:31, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Translating "Bokmål" to "Standard Norwegian" is not at all good. Both Bokmål and Nynorsk are "standard" languages of Norway. Britannica uses "Dano-Norwegian", but I don't think it's the task of Misplaced Pages to interpret the name. As pointed out above, Landsmaal unquestionably means "National language". For comparison, nobody would translate the Norwegian "fotball-landslag" (national football team) to "rural football team", although it's technically possible. contrapuncti 19:21, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

Du fjernet langt mer informasjon enn bare det, jeg har derfor gjenopprettet siden. "Traditional Standard Norwegian" er faktisk den offisielle engelske oversettelsen av "riksmål" (jfr. Riksmålsforbundets hjemmeside), og "Standard Norwegian" gir mer mening på engelsk enn "Bokmål". Det er en dekkende betegnelse for det språket som omfatter rettskrivningsnormalene bokmål og riksmål. Jeg skjønner ikke hvorfor nynorskfolk er så oppsatt på at "bokmål" og "riksmål" ikke skal oversettes til forståelig engelsk, men det er nærliggende å anta at man ønsker å tilsløre dette språkets posisjon som de facto norsk hovedspråk. Navnet "bokmål" er i seg selv "diskriminerende" mot nynorsk, men nå var engang dette språket her først. Bokmålets og riksmålets navn på engelsk og andre fremmedspråk kan ikke baseres på nynorskhensyn. Å insistere på å bare bruke ignorante, bokstavelige oversettelser som "book language" er direkte usaklig. Og det gir mindre mening for engelske lesere. Wolfram

Ang. landsmål, så er det nok i Oslo flere som forstår det som "rural language" enn "national language". Det var faktisk først på Misplaced Pages at jeg oppdaget at det nynorskfolk mente, var "nasjonalt språk". Det kan ikke skade å nevne at det kan bety "rural language" også. Wolfram 13:17, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ved nærmere ettertanke vil jeg legge til at jeg ikke selv har noe imot begrepet "Dano-Norwegian" som betegnelse på det språket som omfatter både riksmål og bokmål. Språkhistorisk er dette helt korrekt. Men det er neppe en akseptabel oversettelse av navnet "bokmål", som ved en dynamisk og velvillig oversettelse heller betyr netopp "Standard Norwegian". Wolfram 08:49, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't know how big is the difference but which is the language of http://no.wikipedia.org, Bokmaal or Nynorsk?

Bokmål. --SAB 18:19, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Actually, the Norwegian Misplaced Pages is not only in Bokmål. All forms of Norwegian, which includes Bokmål, Riksmål, Nynorsk and even Høgnorsk, are used there. However, most of the articles are written in Bokmål/Riksmål, the language used by around 90 % of all Norwegians. Wolfram 18:48, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Oslo dialect

I'll probably have to study up on this, but I don't think it's accurate to say that people in Oslo have "abandoned" a dialect and taken up "standard talemål."

First, there are geographical differences. A casual listener will be able to hear differences between someone from Stabekk and someone from Grorud, and I'm sure linguists can pinpoint differences between someone more near each other, e.g., Sandvika and Røa.

Second, even a dialect that is similar to written Norwegian is a dialect. There are idiosynchratic words and idioms, and nobody speaks like a radio broadcaster.

In Britain, to take a parallel, they talk about the influence of RP on the dialects but not that RP itself has become the preferred spoken language.

I attempted to reflect this in my latest edit, but it wasn't very successfull and it's OK that Samuelsen removed it. However, that the traditional dialects of Bærum, Romerike, even Hallingdal are disappearing should be mentioned in the article. As regards the differences between Stabekk and Grorud, they might just as well be regarded as sociolectical. The same applies for Eiganes (Egenes) vs. Storhaug in Stavanger. contrapuncti 12:49, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

Jarle - it used to be that children who grew up in certain towns spoke "stasjonsspråk," an approximation to written language. My grandmother grew up in Eidsvoll; her father was from Skjåk and her mother from Nord-Odal. But she has spoken stasjonsspråk until now, and she's 95. Under "dialect" here in wikipedia, the writers point out that nobody speaks a language, they speak a dialect of a language. Perhaps we should restructure the whole article to explain more about the evolution of, distinctions within, etc., of both written and spoken languages in Norway.--Leifern 23:36, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Riksmål - feminine

It is not correct that riksmål rejects the feminine form. If you read Riksmålsordboken, they propose that "hytte" be inflected "hytta."

"I nynorsk og dialektene opererer man med tre kjønn: en båt, ei bok og et hus. Det kan man gjøre i bokmål òg. Her kan man imidlertid også velge å bruke to kjønn, dvs. felleskjønn og intetkjønn, jf. en båt/bok/jente og et hus. Og i riksmål er det systemet med to kjønn som benyttes; i sin ”Riksmålsgrammatikk” (s. 81) sier Gorgus Coward at det ikke finnes noen grunn til å bruke den ubestemte artikkelen ei. Men man kan likevel bruke –a i bestemt for hvor man finner det naturlig".

Unjustified and controversial claims in the section Modern Norwegian

Norwegian spoken language is far more complicated. Most people (70-75 %) speak a dialect which has more in common with Nynorsk than Bokmål, but generally with severe deviations (http://www.hivolda.no/index.php?ID=11686). The reference is to an unjustified claim in an article by the Ivas Aasen institute, an institution that from its name cannot be expected to hold a neutral point of view.

The Ivar Aasen institute is part of the University College of Volda. The professor who wrote the article is a respected expert in the field, and I really can't see why he would be biased. Except for the cities of southern and eastern Norway the dialects are closer to Nynorsk. I don't think that is disputed at all, but I may be wrong. contrapuncti 15:29, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

Then I would like to see the original reference for the claim. I couldn't find anything by reading the titles in Walton's list of publications at (http://www.hivolda.no/index.php?ID=10469&lang=nyn). Perhaps you could show me? As for the problem of finding out something like that, it would not be trivial to make a good definition of similarity between languages. You could probably do it in many ways, and choose the one that gives the nicest results. Second, it would not be correct to assume that everybody in an area speaks the same, archetypical dialect. People move around, and the dialects of individuals can be combined, suppressed or watered out. BBB 19:34, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Riksmål has been the de facto standard language of Norway for most of the 20th century, and is the language used by the largest Norwegian newspapers and encyclopedias, a very large proportion of the population of the capital and its surrounding areas, and the Norwegian elite. Insufficient justification is given for this claim.

To whoever put this sentence back in: Who is this Norwegian elite, and how do you know that they use Riksmål? Also, during which period of more that 50 years in the 20th century was Riksmål the de facto standard language, and how do you know? BBB 19:34, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The claims are controversial in the sense that I find them hard to believe. I will remove the sentences until proper justification can be given.

BBB 13:34, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think that some of the recent edits by 83.109.177.24 are tendentious, and I am tempted to revert most of it. Second opinions? For comparison here are some possible earlier contributions by the same user: 18 Dec, 9 Dec, 8 Dec, 25 Nov, 17 Nov, 15 Nov, 14 Nov, 13 Nov, 13 Nov, 12 Nov, 12 Nov, 9 Nov, 9 Nov, 8 Nov, 8 Nov, 7 Nov, 23 Oct, 20 Oct, 17 Oct, 15 Oct, 10 Oct, 7 Oct, 6 Oct, 28 Sep, and 24 Sep. It would be helpful if this user would join the forum openly. --Eddi (Talk) 00:30, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Pronouns in Nynorsk

Maybe we should write something about the personal pronouns in Nynorsk and norwegian dialects, they often differ from Bokmål, at least in 2nd person sing/plur. http://home.online.no/~jomagnev/norsk/nynorsk/oversett/nyproreg.html http://www-studnot.hit.no/u971071/dialekter/begrep/perspro.htm

Genetic classification

Why is West Scandinavian called "insular"? This hardly seems accurate since Nynorsk and earlier forms of West Scandinavian have been spoken in Norway for even longer than they've been spoken in Iceland or the Faroes. (I realize most Norwegians write in Bokmaal. But Norway's population is more than 10 times Iceland plus the Faroes put together!) --Rjp08773 00:47, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Insular Scandinavian are mainly spoken on islands, unlike Continental Scandinavian, it's not a historical classification, but rather a description of the modern usage. I guess Nynorsk could be controversial to classify, since it has been hugely affected by the Dano-Norwegian Bokmål.

Former capitalisation of commoun nouns?

I've either read or heard that several Germanic languages besides German used to capitalise all common nouns. In Danish this practice was abolished in a spelling reform in the late 1940s. Can anybody tell me if this was ever practiced in Norwegian and if so when was it abolished? — Hippietrail 06:07, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Ministry gave permission to not capitalise in 1877. Capitalisation seems to have disappeared around 1907. 12:08, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dispute regarding Bokmal

Bokmal, as it is classified differently, seems to be a different language from Norwegian. Sarcelles 00:58, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What??? Please explain why you think so. I'll remove the disputed tag otherwise, as it seems to be put on for no good reason, or any reason at all. --Leifern 01:07, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)

One of the sources supporting my view is . This source has Bokmal as part of what it calls Danish-Bokmal. Regards, Sarcelles 02:38, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)