Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 09:53, 17 October 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Jimmy Carr article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 3 months

This article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Biography: Arts and Entertainment This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the arts and entertainment work group (assessed as Mid-importance). Buckinghamshire (inactive) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Buckinghamshire, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.BuckinghamshireWikipedia:WikiProject BuckinghamshireTemplate:WikiProject BuckinghamshireBuckinghamshire Comedy High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Comedy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of comedy on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ComedyWikipedia:WikiProject ComedyTemplate:WikiProject ComedyComedy High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. London Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject London, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of London on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LondonWikipedia:WikiProject LondonTemplate:WikiProject LondonLondon-related Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Radio Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Radio, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Radio-related subjects on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.RadioWikipedia:WikiProject RadioTemplate:WikiProject RadioRadio Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. To-do List: Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Article requests : Create: Missing years and articles in radio, National Association of Radio Distress-Signalling and Infocommunications (Hungary) Assess : Unassessed Radio articles; Unknown-importance Radio articles Cleanup : Radio articles needing attention Expand : Midweek Politics Bob Crane Maintain : Portal:Radio Stubs : Expand: Radio stubs Verify : Unreferenced BLPs Other : Collaboration of the Week: Requests for Radio peer review: Rod Serling The Howard Stern Show The History of Rock & Roll American Top 40; The Museum of Curiosity; Scott Mills (radio show) Television This article is within the scope of WikiProject Television, a collaborative effort to develop and improve Misplaced Pages articles about television programs. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page where you can join the discussion. To improve this article, please refer to the style guidelines for the type of work.TelevisionWikipedia:WikiProject TelevisionTemplate:WikiProject Televisiontelevision ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

America

Trying to use search engines for research is very difficult lately as the algorithms push you towards what they THINK you are looking for, regardless of how many search operators etc. you use. Which means, while researching the Edinburgh information I had to use really broad search terms, only restricted by date filters.

Although an annoyance – it meant that I’ve collected a LOT of information on other un-related people, gigs and events. Much of which will probably now have to wait until the Winter for me to sort through (chores to do and all that).

Despite making so many trips Stateside (virtually once or twice a year) there are very few press reports. UK MSM are not interested (unless it’s a “cancel x person for a joke” story) and BCG / Chortle appear to be pretty much run on a shoe string and so rely on being fed stories. We don’t celebrate our UK comedy scene enough!!

The LA Comedy Store, for example, is legendary (to comedians and comedy fans) as the place that developed everyone from Richard Pryor to Robin Williams to Jim Carrey. As an Alumnus of the club (a rare honour, to be bestowed upon a Brit) Carr can turn up any time he’s in town and just perform. But finding an official record is tricky – so I’ve had to leave it a bit vague and have left many appearances out (not sure the Misplaced Pages guidelines would accept single tweets from punters).

Where I’ve felt it’s important to note an appearance I’ve used, for example, the X account of the official Comedy Store, so that it’s not just some random user who might have their account removed. Is that acceptable?

Although I would imagine some would think that listing too many TV shows is trying to turn this into IMDB – my perspective is that the American late-night shows give massive exposure and a Brit artist getting repeated invites to these shows is a huge career boost. There are many, many more shows he has appeared on – these are just the biggies.

I’ve highlighted Netflix a fair bit as he seems to be well regarded and “plays nicely” with other comedians – hence his collaborations. Again – there are many more that I couldn’t find citations for, where has worked with / supported other US stars.

The one thing that I think someone may “object” to is the section main title “America” then covering TV and stand up, which doesn’t fit the format of the paragraphs above.

A lot of work has gone into this so, if anyone is unhappy, can we please talk about it, rather than just nuke the lot…always nervous about doing a big update. And it’s heartbreaking when something gets removed without warning. Comedy Nerd77 (talk) 13:17, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

SUFH 2023 _ Daily Mail Citation

Hello @Davidgerard

I would like to restore my citation (2023 SUFH – Daily Mail) and so am launching this discussion.

One of the things that I find frustrating about editing Misplaced Pages is how different people have such differing opinions (of how to apply the rules) and so, months after editing something, one person can decide that it doesn’t fit somehow and you are back at square 1 and having to dig out old notes.

I’m assuming you think the DM is an “unreliable tabloid” but in this instance it’s a properly reported story of a charity event, that occurred in a different country. With regard to this particular type of event – why would something be more legitimate if it was in the Grauniad? (or similar).

As it’s a British Comedian at a US event it didn’t get a lot of coverage and this was the BEST overview I could find. And when I say the best – it’s getting harder and harder to find stories that are not behind a paywall and, as more MSM websites struggle financially, this is only going to get worse. I always try and find something that everyone can read and that delivers all the facts.

With this event there is a link that I could use, from the Bob Woodruff Foundation, that says who was GOING to be there – but I thought a story, written after the event, that had proof and pictures was more appropriate.

Regardless of who is behind the URL – should accuracy and photographs not count for something? I get why there is an overall feeling that tabloids are to be avoided – but isn’t it a little knee jerk to just see “Daily Mail” and reject, without actually looking at the content?

Can we talk?        :o)) Comedy Nerd77 (talk) 06:58, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Talking to myself (I find I get more sense this way!)... I've put the DM link back in as, apart from photos on places like Getty images, the only other really visible information was the announcement on the Woodruff Foundation site (which I've also added).

As mentioned above - I have inserted both as the Woodruff link was only announcing the "intent" for him to host, whereas the DM story is confirmation that it really happened. I think having both completes the circle. Comedy Nerd77 (talk) 09:40, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

If the only independent source for something happening is the Daily Mail, it is rather an indication that it isn't that significant, I'd have to suggest. And the Mail says very little about Carr anyway. Articles aren't supposed to document every gig a comedian does, for charity or otherwise. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

You don't think it's significant that a UK comedian has been asked to host a US charity show, headed by Springsteen and televised? What would your yardstick be? Comedy Nerd77 (talk) 10:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

My yardstick is basically Misplaced Pages's, per WP:DUE. 'Significance' is determined by level of coverage in sources, not by our own personal opinions. And it seems rather unlikely that the DM would have covered this event if it wasn't for the involvement of Prince Harry. That's what their piece is about. Carr just gets mentioned in passing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:29, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Well it was covered by plenty of other outlets - but outside the UK. As I've mentioned before - I look for sources that the most people would be able to read. And you are the 1st person to call into question the inclusion of the actual event, rather than just the source citation. And the Woodruff site only mentioned Carr, had his picture first, and no mention of Harry - why not mention that? (playing Devil's Advocate right back at you).

From the perspective of "significance" - how many Brits do you know (apart from Gervais) who are asked to host US events? Or vice versa. It's really hard for comedians to make inroads on the opposite side of the world - which is what I meant by the yardstick, because you were suggesting that it was some run of the mill gig. My understanding is that SUFH is a big thing (as an event celebrating the military) - so it's not like it's just a bring and buy sale appearance.

The thing I struggle with most on here is everything is so entirely subjective and one person can end up being the arbiter of right/wrong. Would feel much more democratic if there were a voting system.

Time for some tennis...will chat with you later. :o) Comedy Nerd77 (talk) 12:52, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

It there are other sources, link them here, so we can discuss them. The Woodruff site isn't independent (and says very little about Carr anyway). As for your suggestion regarding votes, that isn't how Misplaced Pages works, and you aren't going to get long-established core policy changed by arguing about it on this talk page. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Morning – apols for delay replying. First of all - I’ll retract my support for using that DM article as a citation (and avoid using them in the future). Happy to admit when I’m in the wrong and, having done some deep digging, it appears that the word “hosted” had crept into a couple of stories – of which the DM is the only one I can now retrieve.

I’ve made note of the help pages related to sources, for future.

My background is SEO and there have been some concerning things going on, since the introduction of AI. I use different browsers, search engines and VPN and it’s been so hard to relocate earlier finds that I’ve had to resort to dumping info into Word documents, for future reference.

Google updates this year, for example, at one point had me raising complaints with them for things like a search that told me there were 400 results and yet refused to show me more than 10. Year filters have gone completely haywire, search operators don’t seem to function as they did and the engines seem to be trying to anticipate AI telling us an answer, rather than showing links to all sites available.

On top of that many sites are begging for cash, cutting their output – or vanishing completely and taking their archive with them (example MTV news – 20 years gone in a flash).

These are no good for sources – but just to mention, in passing, that the other issue is that some sites are retrievable by search (via Carr’s name) – but then come up as “this event has passed” or a blanked page. Example – Lincoln Center. And also New York Comedy Festival. And The Guardian returns several links promising the details of his performance – none of which work. Muddies the waters a bit when searching.

In no particular order below are some of the links for the SUFH event, which he performed a spot for (does “attended” not refer to audience members?).

I read bio pages for other people on here and still think (you may disagree) that these events are important contextually. Americans that I speak to are incredibly appreciative of their military and, as the only Brit on the bill, he is appreciated – especially as a repeat supporter. But he’s never going to get the same column inches, in US stories, as Springsteen / Jon Stewart and so on.

For now – I’ll replace the DM citation with Business Wire (the Associated Press story is a bit messy) but am also removing the 2024 reference as that page has vanished.

2023: Woodruff Foundation     Pollstar     Deadline     Variety     Business Wire      800 Pound Gorilla Media     Getty Images     App.com (Asbury Park Press)    Billboard     Woodruff Foundation on YT     Good Sense Company      Independent UK     App.com (2 story)   David Clark Cause (info on here is more generic)    American Songwriter     Jambase   Ambassador Images     Forbes    Look To The Stars     Glix Agency (Hungary)    Associated Press News   Alamy (images)     Billboard (2 story)    Woodruff on Instagram     New Jersey Arts      Chortle     Jersey Evening Post    Daily Mail (2 story)    WBAL News Radio    

2018: ABC News    Forbes    Rolling Stone (before)    Rolling Stone (after)    Woodruff Foundation (recycling Rolling Stone) Globe Newswire     Variety     Madison Square Garden     Brooklyn Vegan     Alamy     WFRD (radio)    Good Morning America      Comedy Nerd77 (talk) 06:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

1 child or 2?

Hello

Anonymous accounts keep changing the panel on here to say "1 child" and then it goes back to 2...and now it's back to 1 again. It's DEF 2. See the first minute of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdswrDtMISc&t=11s and if you Google, around April time, there was a flurry of stories around the press "contacting his reps for comment" etc.

He's been talking about having had a 2nd child, in his gigs and podcasts, for ages and also in his Natural Born Killer special there was a routine around him talking to his son and daughter.

So 2 is the answer. :o)) Comedy Nerd77 (talk) 09:58, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:RELIABLESOURCES. Seasider53 (talk) 10:01, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

The YT video - where he says "kids". Are his own words not reliable enough? Or Natural Born Killer? I can't link to the latter as it's on Netflix.

He didn't talk about his 1st child for 18 months so has a history of keeping his private life private and only really confirmed it when he published his book.

Personally - I give up. But this panel keeps getting changed back and forth repeatedly, mainly by anon accounts, because everyone that goes to his gigs (or watches him in Videos) know he's got "kids". Give it a week or two and someone will try and put it back to 2 again. Comedy Nerd77 (talk) 10:34, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

A comedy show is not a reliable source. Surely you can understand why? Seasider53 (talk) 10:59, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Canada

Background, explanations – and some questions…

I collected the bulk of this information about a year ago and realised recently, as a result of reading about another story, that some of the websites have since vanished. I’ve had to spend a considerable amount of time re-checking the sources and then re-doing many of the searches and downloading the text for future reference. So, please go gentle on me, when critiquing my text!

I’m slotting it in between Edinburgh and America. Carr went to Edinburgh first – then JFL / Canada and then, a few months later, was on Conan. So that order makes more sense – even if they then all criss-cross each other.

Some shows / appearances I managed to find multiple references for but, as its Canada, someone Canadian may have to let me know if I’ve chosen a lower-grade website option (drop me a chat and we can discuss what other links I may have).

Sometimes my choice has been driven by the quality of the text. 2018 for example – I chose a Montreal Gazette link because the Chortle article said this was his 13 JFL – when it was in fact his 14. In this instance I think the Montreal Gazette is generally a good option – but many of its more recent pages are now behind a paywall. BTW - Carr himself loses track of how many he’s attended as he said 2022 was his 15 – when it was actually his 17.

The Gazette is also a problem for 2002-3 as its pre 2004 online archive has been dumped – (although the Shecky magazine references its earlier content).

Could someone please advise me on whether a published book is counted as a “self published source”? I wasn’t clear after reading the Wiki help text. Reason being that, in Carr’s Before and Laughter, he talks about how “the comedy myth is that you go to JFL and become a hit in the States” – but that had actually happened to him, in 2002, when he was subsequently invited to go to New York to do Conan. Can I use that? It’s an important leap in his career trajectory.

I’ve done my best to cut the word count down so where, for example, I say that Montreal WAS the world’s largest comedy festival – I didn’t want to repeat all of the details around its financial demise in the 2020s (which I have expanded on further down the text). Does this make sense? ComediHa! Are trying to rebuild the brand but that info belongs on the official JFL page.

I have briefly mentioned Just pour rire and JFL, to drive search engines. I’ve Capitalised the 3 words Just For Laughs, even though Word etc. want the FOR to be lower case. NO ONE can make their mind up, from what I can see, as to which is right, and HaHaHa.com (the original, official website) frequently used JUST FOR LAUGHS. Just to confuse things the new owners (Comediha!) have used Just for laughs. I give up.

2003 I mentioned that he was (again) erroneously listed as being in the Irish shows as I can find zero evidence that he was in them. Many times the listings of who would do what shows (which came out around April-July each year) did not evolve into actual appearances. I’ve spent a lot of time trying to prove/disprove each one.

2003 I deliberately left the Leno show in the Stand Up section as the “TV” section relates to shows that came out of Canadian JFL TV productions.

2006 (and others) – I’ve named other comics involved in shows (mainly where they are bigger names) otherwise it’s a bit boring if it’s solely details of each year Carr attended. It also shows how many of the current most successful comedians have know each other for 20+ years.

2014 this counts as a JFL appearance because there are photos, on various social accounts, of him at numerous different shows. Unfortunately, they are not great sources for citations as some are just posts from audience members or mentions on Reddit that he “was great last night at xxx”.

2017 is sparse on links because it was a 375 Montreal anniversary, which drew all the press. 2022 was another year with poor quality news coverage.

2018 Kill Tony is a big name in the Americas (see under Tony Hinchcliffe).

2021 I held back on something I was going to type about how pandemic restrictions (which went through to 2022) meant that 2021 was a festival bill consisting of all US / Canadian comics as the comics either couldn’t travel or didn’t want to risk it, due to rules changing at the last moment. It’s one of those things that we all “know” – but I couldn’t find an article as a citation.

2024 I’ve repositioned some text about the Jim Jefferies double-headliner tour. I’ve used an Instagram post as, although there are plenty of mentions of the JJ tour around the web, I’ve found that tour related info often gets deleted fairly quickly.

Canadian TV

2010 All Star Gala was listed on Apple TV (depending on which route you enter the website – it sometimes says “not available”) so I have avoided using that (but I also chose the Tubi Tv link for the poster).

2015 The Nasty Show and Roast Invitational text could just have easily have been up in the Stand Up listings, above. I didn’t want to repeat the info in both places – is this best practice?

Canadian Charities

Re Hope & Cope – I had downloaded the PDF documenting his 2012 appearance – but this has now been deleted (from the Hope & Cope website). However, the Gazette story mentions that 2019 is his 4 appearance – which aligns with 2012, 2015 and 2017 being the first three. Comedy Nerd77 (talk) 10:47, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

It seems overtly detailed, and the lack of references is going to be its downfall. We also don't need to link Just for Laughs in each paragraph. Seasider53 (talk) 11:04, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

There are even more JFL links now? Holy smokes, it’s a tough read. Seasider53 (talk) 12:15, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry - I had my email off - took me 3 hours to do that upload.... A lot of the Citations failed (numbers in URL etc.) so I had to do them manually. Not sure what you mean by "overly detailed"? Examples?

I thought, in other pages that I read, things, that had Wiki pages, were always linked in each para...

Need to go and get some food - have a look now it's all up and I'll be back later. Comedy Nerd77 (talk) 13:49, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Podcasts

I feel bad about re-writing someone else’s work but the Podcasts section had an error in that the Frankie Boyle chat was 2010, when it was 2011 – see Jimmy tweet and also FB’s Misplaced Pages page. And the link to Ivy.fm is dead so, as I’m in there, I’ll change it to Podchaser.

Mention of the pandemic (being a reason for the ramping up) doesn’t make sense to me as, so far as I can see, he did (roughly) 1 podcast in 2019, 5 in 2020 and 27 in 2021. 2020 was a little higher rate than previous years and the first 4-5 pods of 2021 were recorded over Zoom – but then the rest of 2021’s “ramping up” was because 2021 was when he released his book (Before & Laughter) and he was all over radio and podcasts, sometimes multiple times a day – and often in person.

I would suggest that would have happened, regardless of the pandemic. It was just a business decision to move an international artist away from UK TV chat show circuit to a format that gave a much bigger audience.

But also, of the podcasts listed (in the original text) only Dane’s was recorded “during the pandemic”. The Comedian’s Comedian, for example, was recorded 11 Oct 2021 at one of JC’s gigs and the others were all 2022. You Made It Weird was on a stage, in Montreal, at Just For Laughs July 2022. So, describing them as “during the height of the pandemic” doesn’t really align, IMHO. Sorry to nitpick!

The final part of my text about “everyone is jealous….” – that quote, if you Google, it, can be found on every social platform and also the LinkedIn profiles of some impressive people. I didn’t want to wax too lyrical about it – but it makes a change from seeing him being repeatedly quoted for a dodgy joke. Comedy Nerd77 (talk) 13:43, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I would ask you to hold off on adding anything else to the article. It isn't in fantastic shape currently thanks to recent edits, and adding anything else would create unnecessary extra work. Seasider53 (talk) 13:46, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Wasn't planning on anything else - but what do you think is wrong to make it "not in fantastic shape"? Genuinely asking...not trying to argue with you. :o) Comedy Nerd77 (talk) 14:01, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Too much to list here. Formatting errors, unreliable sources, duplicated wikilinks for starters. At this point you might as well continue, but expect a lot of your work to possibly be for nothing. Seasider53 (talk) 14:52, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for delay – business has been hectic. Re the duplicated wikilinks…I thought I’d be told off if I didn’t put them all in…lesson learned.

Proposition for you – how about, as some training for me, you tell me what wants fixing and I do it? Doesn’t have to be all at once. If we start with the Wikilinks – if you can confirm how many times each one needs adding then I could potentially tidy them up over this weekend.   Comedy Nerd77 (talk) 09:53, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I rolled the article back to before your contributions, because there were too many problems with WP:SYNTH and WP:PEACOCK. The WP:TONE is too promotional. You cannot use Misplaced Pages's voice to praise Carr in such flattering terms as "introduced a new audience to the intelligence of the man behind the stage persona". This smacks of a public relations campaign. Binksternet (talk) 16:38, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Understood / links noted. The problem I had was the Podcasts section, as it is now, makes no sense. The bit about ramping up during COVID is (IMHO) not supported by evidence – mostly because not all of those shows were during that time.

I was trying to keep as much of the original submitters text as possible (because I know what it’s like to have your words chopped about) but, in the end, gave myself a headache trying to make it make sense and went a bit OTT. Honestly, I rewrote that last part about 15 times and, clearly, lost my way. Comedy Nerd77 (talk) 09:53, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

• Biography articles of living people
• C-Class biography articles
• C-Class biography (arts and entertainment) articles
• Mid-importance biography (arts and entertainment) articles
• Arts and entertainment work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• C-Class Comedy articles
• High-importance Comedy articles
• WikiProject Comedy articles
• C-Class London-related articles
• Low-importance London-related articles
• C-Class Radio articles
• Low-importance Radio articles
• WikiProject Radio articles
• C-Class television articles
• Unknown-importance television articles
• WikiProject Television articles