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Kesaria Abramidze

@Buidhe: I explained in my edit summary why it is not appropriate to include the case of Kesaria Abramidze in this article. Neither of the sources say that she was killed because she was transgender. You are an experienced editor. Why do you think that the criteria for inclusion in this article, and the edit notice, somehow do not apply? And what on earth did you mean by your edit summary? Sweet6970 (talk) 11:31, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't know if we're reading the same sources because the claim is clearly being made that her transgender status is related to the murder. If it's not relevant, why would the articles mention the anti-trans law that was passed the previous day? (t · c) buidhe 13:21, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

We are reading the same sources – neither of which say that she was killed for being transgender. … why would the articles mention the anti-trans law that was passed the previous day? You would have to ask the Guardian and the BBC that. The Guardian actually says:" Although the motive behind Abramidze’s murder remains unclear, her death was swiftly cast by Georgian civil society as part of a state campaign against minorities in the country." i.e. they are reporting the claim of others that there is a connection, but correctly saying that the motive behind Abramidze’s murder remains unclear which means that this death does not, at this stage, qualify for inclusion in this article. Sweet6970 (talk) 14:48, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I have now deleted this item. It could, obviously, be reinstated if there is a source saying definitely that she was killed for being transgender, but that would have to wait until there has been a trial and conviction. Sweet6970 (talk) 12:00, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed here; while it is certainly plausible that she was killed for being transgender, there is as-of-yet a shortage of evidence indicating as much. AmityCity (talk) 20:01, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Cherry Bush

@AmityCity: I see you have reinstated the entry for Cherry Bush. But the sources are still only about the prosecution’s allegations. There is nothing saying that this was definitely a hate crime: this entry should be deleted. Sweet6970 (talk) 14:14, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

An eyewitness account, the district attorney, and the Los Angeles Police Department have all stated in no uncertain terms that the suspect killed Cherry immediately following "disparaging comments based on her perceived gender identity." . There is no other known connection between the victim and suspect. There is a preponderance of evidence supporting this. What position exactly would support the idea that this was not a hate crime...? AmityCity (talk) 21:17, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

What we have in the sources are allegations. What we need is a reliable source saying that this was a hate crime. We should not be making this judgment ourselves. It’s strange that this death occurred in 2022, yet there is no source about any conviction. It’s possible that the person accused was acquitted, or that the charge was dropped. Without a source saying definitely that this was a transphobic hate crime, this entry should be deleted. Sweet6970 (talk) 14:12, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I looked up "Cherry Bush murder" on DuckDuckGo. The first result was this article, which says: "she was shot and killed on July 5 after being targeted and disparaged based on her perceived gender identity". -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 18:03, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

This still doesn’t provide definite information that she was killed because she was transgender. And no-one has so far provided a source about what the situation is regarding any trial. Sweet6970 (talk) 14:49, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Suspect is being held in custody, still awaiting trial as of earlier this year. Looks like it got transferred and is being tried in San Bernadino. The American legal process moves pretty slowly.

Legitimately, I'm uncertain how one can view "someone ran into a stranger, made expressly transphobic comments to her and then killed her with no other demonstrated motive" as anything other than her being killed because she was transgender. All authorities on the subject are saying it was a clear hate crime. What is the standard of proof you require -- for anyone to be added to this list, does their killer have to write a signed confession saying "this was a hate crime"? The killer is not named here -- we are not ascertaining any individual's guilt -- but for the reason for Cherry's death, there is overwhelming evidence indicating transphobia as the motive; and not even a crumb of evidence suggesting otherwise. If you are able to find any please let me know. AmityCity (talk) 20:05, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the information about the situation on the trial. No-one has yet been convicted, so what we have at present are allegations. This article is a list of people killed for being transgender i.e. we are saying in wikivoice that Cherry Bush was killed for being transgender. We should only do this is there is a reliable source saying so. At present, there isn’t. If there is a conviction, then presumably there will be. In the meantime, her name should be deleted. Sweet6970 (talk) 13:05, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

As people have been pointing out for years, that is an absurdly high bar for inclusion, since most cases will never result in a conviction where the killer's motive is established in court. Nothing in any reliable source requires us to restrict our list based on the killer's motive. That restriction was invented by Misplaced Pages editors, and it has resulted in a hopelessly biased wiki page that systematically distorts and misrepresents the subject matter by arbitrarily excluding most victims from the list. If the goal is to represent what reliable sources say about the subject, this article should be about trans victims of homicide, since that's how news organizations, human rights groups, medical associations, and academics frame the issue. Jd4v15 (talk) 01:19, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

It is not ‘absurd’ that the content of a Misplaced Pages article should conform to its title. This article is supposed to be a list of people killed for being transgender. A list of people who were killed and were transgender would be a different article. Sweet6970 (talk) 12:08, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

We don't need a judgment though. In my opinion, "she was shot and killed on July 5 after being targeted and disparaged based on her perceived gender identity" implies a connection between her being targeted for her gender and her being killed, that her being trans was the reason for the killing. If there was any doubt about that, I don't think RS would write like that, not without some hedging at least. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 13:53, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

I would be happy to discuss the inclusion criteria. There's likely to be a happy middle between the status quo and inclusion of every trans person killed. In the meantime. I agree with S6970 that Bush's case is still just allegations, and I don't interpret the "she was shot..." quote as RS confirmation that her trans status was the reason for the killing. It's a connection for sure, and if we'd like to include cases with such connections, we need to adjust the inclusion criteria. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:37, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

To Maddy from Celeste: ‘after’ does not mean ‘because of’.

To FFF: I can’t think of any ‘happy middle’ between (A) ‘killed for being transgender’ and (B) ‘killed and transgender’. (A) and (B) are clear criteria. Anything in the middle would be open to endless arguments. What do you have in mind?

Sweet6970 (talk) 14:47, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

"Victims of transphobia", perhaps? If someone expresses transphobic sentiments about a trans person and then kills them, seems like that victim should be included -- actions evidence that the value of their life is seen as less because of their trans status. I don't think there's a need (or capacity) to include every single instance of a trans person being killed. But in cases with evidence that their killer viewed them as lesser because of their trans status, it seems like a reach to be routinely deleting those. AmityCity (talk) 06:51, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I would support a move to List of unlawfully killed trans people per this June 2020 RFC. To reiterate what I stated in my support !vote there, "I regret supporting the move to the current title as I see that is now being used as an excuse to completely gut this article, by establishing an impossibly high standard of proof that a person's trans status was the primary motive in their killing." Broadening the scope need not make this list indiscriminate; we could add additional criteria, such as mentions in major news sources. Funcrunch (talk) 15:57, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I think I would support this, too. Sources clearly thematize murders of transgender people as a topic, as can for example be seen in the reporting on Cherry Bush. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 16:20, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Although somewhat awkward, I think the "unlawfully killed" wording is good because it would cover homicides as well as murders, but not people killed by other causes (medical crises or accidents, for example). If a trans person's body is found with bullet holes or strangulation marks, for example, it's pretty clear that they were "unlawfully killed". If such a killing makes major news, I believe it should be included in this list even if a trial has not taken place with a suspect found definitively guilty of murder with transphobic intent. Setting such a high burden of proof is unnecessary as long as we're clear about our inclusion criteria. Funcrunch (talk) 18:49, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

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