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Revision as of 10:54, 20 October 2024 view sourceKautilya3 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers86,593 edits →The Asian News International vs. Wikimedia Foundation situation: Rorganising comments← Previous edit Revision as of 15:01, 20 October 2024 view source DangalOh (talk | contribs)385 edits →The Asian News International vs. Wikimedia Foundation situation: ReplyTag: ReplyNext edit →
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::::: Yeah, I noticed. This is probably part of what transpired in the 20th August hearing, which ]. It did not get reported in the press at that time. The WMF lawyer gives me the impression of trying to bargain with the judge(s) rather than to assert our rights forcefully on legal grounds. My disappointment continues. -- ] (]) 10:46, 20 October 2024 (UTC) ::::: Yeah, I noticed. This is probably part of what transpired in the 20th August hearing, which ]. It did not get reported in the press at that time. The WMF lawyer gives me the impression of trying to bargain with the judge(s) rather than to assert our rights forcefully on legal grounds. My disappointment continues. -- ] (]) 10:46, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
::::: It is part of our fundamental msision is to bring to the public, knowledge that might be known only to a select few. We cannot be faulted for doing this. We are ''not producing'' our own knowledge here, only collating it. -- ] (]) 10:51, 20 October 2024 (UTC) ::::: It is part of our fundamental msision is to bring to the public, knowledge that might be known only to a select few. We cannot be faulted for doing this. We are ''not producing'' our own knowledge here, only collating it. -- ] (]) 10:51, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
::::::Agreed, but at least for me, there is a '''difference''' between "knowledge that might be known only to a select few" and "pushing fringe sources, limited to a selected few ('''for good reasons'''), as authoritative to defame someone or something, thereby '''promoting''' the fringe source in the process." This issue is not just limited to ANI, but practically applies to all Indian media news channels that do not bash the incumbent government day and night, using motivated and third-class sources like Mohd Zubair's Alt News. Should self-proclaimed fact-checkers and rival news agencies be used to defame other news agencies? Please do a quick check regarding this if you don't believe me. It's not just about ANI. When someone starts using these sources as authoritative to defame something or someone, it becomes difficult to determine who is at fault—the source, the people pushing those sources, Misplaced Pages itself, the Misplaced Pages community that allows this, or the person who feels they are being defamed because they are trying to '''censor''' "free speech." The thing is, no discussion will result in anything unless all parties are determined that they are right and the other is wrong. Let's just leave this to the court. My comments on this issue '''end here'''. ] (]) 15:01, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
* See the new related deletion discussion ]. ] (]) 16:31, 19 October 2024 (UTC) * See the new related deletion discussion ]. ] (]) 16:31, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
* from ''Bar and Bench''. ] (]) 08:26, 20 October 2024 (UTC) * from ''Bar and Bench''. ] (]) 08:26, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Revision as of 15:01, 20 October 2024

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Wikimedia Foundation Bulletin September Issue 1

Here is a quick overview of highlights from the Wikimedia Foundation over the first half of September 2024. Please help Translate.

Upcoming and current events and conversations Talking: 2024 continues


Annual Goals Progress on Infrastructure See also newsletters: Wikimedia Apps · Growth · Research · Web · Wikifunctions & Abstract Misplaced Pages · Tech News · Language and Internationalization · other newsletters on Mediawiki.org

  • Users of all Wikis will have access to Wikimedia sites as read-only for a few minutes on September 25, starting at 15:00 UTC. This is a planned datacenter switchover for maintenance purposes.
  • The Alternative Text suggested edits feature has now been fully deployed to production on the iOS App for Spanish, Portuguese, Chinese, and French Wikipedias! This feature, part of WE1.2, is designed to enhance how newcomers add alt text to images, aiming to improve accessibility and engagement. For more details, visit the project page and explore the new feature in the app!
  • Editors and volunteer developers interested in data visualization can now test the new software for charts. Its early version is available on beta Commons and beta Misplaced Pages. This is an important milestone before making charts available on regular wikis. You can read more about this project update and help test the charts.
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MediaWiki message delivery 21:40, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikimedia Foundation Bulletin September Issue 2

Here is a quick overview of highlights from the Wikimedia Foundation over the second half of September 2024. Please help Translate.

Upcoming and current events and conversations

Wikimedia at the United Nations General Assembly HQ
Wikimedia event at the United Nations

Talking: 2024 continues

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MediaWiki message delivery 17:10, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Add A Fact malfunctioning

See Talk:JD Vance#Add A Fact: "Walz vs Vance in VP debate" where Add A Fact has recommended something that not only isn't a fact... It fails verification. Add A Fact doesn't appear to have pulled a fact from the source, Add A Fact appears to have made up a questionable fact. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:25, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Horse Eye's Back, thanks for flagging this. To clarify, the way this tool works requires the user (must be logged in and autoconfirmed on English Misplaced Pages) to manually select a snippet of text in a source (in this case, a Reuters article) to check against Misplaced Pages. That text snipped itself is not modified in any way by the tool (it's not even possible for the user to modify it once they've elected to look it up on Misplaced Pages via this tool). So I suspect what happened here is actually that the source itself (i.e., the Reuters article) was edited by Reuters after this user found the claim and sent it as a suggestion to the talk page via the tool. There appears to be an "updated a day ago" message at the top of the article, indicating that this may be the case. So I think the user of this tool unintentionally caught some possibly-fishy information that Reuters itself was putting out there and then walking back... Maryana Pinchuk (WMF) (talk) 19:40, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for the explanation of how the tool works. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:47, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikimedia Foundation Bulletin October Issue 1

Here is a quick overview of highlights from the Wikimedia Foundation over the first half of October 2024. Please help Translate.

Upcoming and current events and conversations

WikiArabia 2024
WikiArabia 2024

Talking: 2024 continues


Annual Goals Progress on Infrastructure

See also newsletters: Wikimedia Apps · Growth · Research · Web · Wikifunctions & Abstract Misplaced Pages · Tech News · Language and Internationalization · other newsletters on Mediawiki.org


Annual Goals Progress on Equity

See also a list of all movement events: on Meta


Annual Goals Progress on Safety & Integrity

See also blogs: Global Advocacy blog · Global Advocacy Newsletter · Policy blog


Board and Board committee updates

See Wikimedia Foundation Board noticeboard · Affiliations Committee Newsletter


Other Movement curated newsletters & news

See also: Diff blog · Goings-on · Wikimedia World · Signpost (en) · Kurier (de) · Actualités du Wiktionnaire (fr) · Regards sur l’actualité de la Wikimedia (fr) · Wikimag (fr) · other newsletters:

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MediaWiki message delivery 23:30, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

The Asian News International vs. Wikimedia Foundation situation

is becoming quite interesting: 'Prima Facie Contemptuous': Delhi High Court Orders Take Down Of Misplaced Pages Page On Pending Defamation Suit By ANI

Does the WMF have any input for the Wikipedians who edit in the general area? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:33, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Notably, Court Reporters also report that WMF's lawyer has been willing to provide the sought details in a "sealed cover" and that WMF plans to comply with the takedown order. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:18, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
WMF's lawyer has been willing to provide the sought details in a "sealed cover". Are you claiming that WMF has disclosed the identities of the ANI editors? That's a pretty WP:EXTRAORDINARY claim. –Novem Linguae (talk) 13:30, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Multiple Court Reporting Portals — including Live Law and Bar&Bench — report that WMF's lawyer was willing to provide details about the "authors" of the ANI article but in a "sealed cover". But the Court didn't accede to such a compromise and wanted it to be filed in public.
The part about "sealed cover" is not reported in mainstream media widely but see Rohini's comments in this Hindustan Times report, etc. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Here's another not-so-established Court-Reporting portal:

Adv Sibal : I will disclose the name of the author in a sealed cover.

Court: why in a sealed cover?

I doubt that the portal was making this conversation up given how low the bar for invoking contempt jurisdiction appears to be in India. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:48, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Raises a number of questions... Most importantly what is meant by subscriber information? Most of us edit pseudo-anonymously after all and the Foundation doesn't have our names, birth dates, etc and technical info like IP can tell you what device the edits are being made from but not who is making the edits. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:02, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Huh — IP address is considered as PII (though it doesn't disclose device details; are you confusing with user-agent?)? For example, if the address is from an Indian ISP, the Court will compel it to give up the name of the person the IP address was assigned to, during the timeframe of the edits.
Now, I do not know for how long Indian ISPs retain their IP assignment logs. For a comparison, in most European states, it's about 6-12 months. TrangaBellam (talk) 17:19, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Yeah theres a few different bits of technical info, but none actually tell you the author unless I'm missing something. So how does WMF know who the author is? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:24, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
All major ISPs in India require their subscribers to produce personal details like Aadhaar at inception. All ISPs are "intermediaries" and are bound by Indian IT Act. So WMF's disclosure of IP addresses is all that the Indian authorities would need to personally identify editors if they are based in India. Read for further info. — hako9 (talk) 17:53, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
The question isn't how the court could figure out the name from the technical details and a subsequent investigation... The question is how the WMF has a name. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:57, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
They don't. They have IP addresses though. — hako9 (talk) 18:04, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Then how can they "disclose the name of the author" Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
They don't need to even if they wanted to. Disclosing IP would be as good as disclosing the name in India. How do you not get this? — hako9 (talk) 18:12, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
I get that... But the lawyer said name not IP. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
The lawyer probably misspoke because admins do not have the NDA requirement like checkuser/oversighters. The Indian judge/lawyer also seem to have misspoken when they said 3 admins. I think they meant editors. — hako9 (talk) 18:19, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
They could have, but at best it's ambiguous so best to continue to seek clarification from the WMF. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:22, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
"Names" is an imprecise substitute for "Identifying Information". How do you not get this?
These are fragments from an oral argumentation in a court before ~60 y. judges who, going by the literature on Indian Courts, are usually not very technically adept. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:15, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
How do you know that? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:16, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Common sense.
I do not know where you are going ahead with this — conspiracy theory territory where WMF has somehow managed to access our IRL Identities / WMF's lawyer being either incompetent or taking the Court for a ride / .. — but this is my last comment on this topic. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
I think you are blowing this out of proportion, there are a large number of scenarios in which the WMF might be privy to the IRL identity of an editor. I don't think that it hurts to get clarity on the issue. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
ANI had asked for details of three "administrators" — do note that their usage of administrator might be lax and not correspond to what we understand as admins; publicly available court records do not mention the names of these three entities — who supposedly inserted and restored defamatory content in the article, from Wikimedia. These are the "authors" referred to, by WMF's lawyer. TrangaBellam (talk) 17:32, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Did we start make admins verify their identity at some point? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
No. But, because of a couple of roles I have filled over the years (OTRS and ARBCOM), I have had to provide WMF with identifying information. The WMF has at least the same access to editor information as do checkusers. If you put your mind to it, you can make it difficult for anyone to identify you, but most editors leave breadcrumbs, and some of us have left a lot. Donald Albury 20:43, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Neither OTRS (VRTS) nor ArbCom required ID from me. Nor would I give it. Cabayi (talk) 11:59, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
@Cabayi pretty sure I had to provide it. That was before your time though. Doug Weller talk 13:40, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
@Cabayi and Doug Weller, identifying to the WMF did used to require sending them a copy of some ID but that has since changed and you no longer do. I don't remember exactly when it changed but it was after December 2014 when I was elected to the Arbitration Committee, it's possible it coincided with the introduction of the current Wikimedia Foundation Access to Nonpublic Personal Data Policy in November 2018. My recollection is that the copies of the ID were retained only long enough to verify you were who you claimed to be and were then destroyed. Thryduulf (talk) 16:07, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
Thanks. I would have been one of those presenting my ID then. Doug Weller talk 16:49, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
Those applying for Grants with the Foundation are required to disclose their identity. – robertsky (talk) 13:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
@JSutherland (WMF): out of curiosity does the WMF attach an IRL identity which could be provided in court to either my or TrangaBellam's account? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:30, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Based on what I know of WMF and Wikimedia culture, I would not expect WMF to disclose any private information about an individual editor to a foreign court. WMF has a history of sticking to open source values in foreign courts even if it means being blocked for years by that nation's ISPs. I think this would be a great opportunity for someone at WMF to clarify what exactly is being disclosed to the Indian courts about our editors. If nothing private like IP addresses were disclosed, this would be an excellent time to set the record straight. –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
@Novem Linguae I agree about the culture of WMF. But given that Wikimedia retains no private data except IP addresses and UAs (correct me if I am wrong on this point), I do not see what else their lawyer could have been willing to provide only under "sealed cover". And I support the call for WMF to clarify on these issues. TrangaBellam (talk) 02:49, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
It also retains your email address if you set it, of course. Which is much closer to "identifying information" than anything else. * Pppery * it has begun... 04:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
Ah, true. Email adresses are stored as long as the user keeps it linked. TrangaBellam (talk) 04:47, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
@Black Kite was just noting at article talk that WMF did disclose US IPs at least once in 2007 per Video_Professor#Video_Professor_lawsuit. Apparently only Comcast kept the claimant from being able to access personal details. Valereee (talk) 12:17, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
Correct me if I am wrong, but twitter/X warns their users before disclosing their IPs on orders of a foreign/local court, when they receive and comply with takedown requests like some mentioned here . If the counsel for WMF has no qualms about throwing wikipedia editors under the bus should push come to shove, shouldn't wmf warn the specific users whose IPs they are willing to disclose? — hako9 (talk) 14:06, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
Policy:Privacy_policy#For_Legal_Reasons. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:15, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
I imagine that WMF would have to disclose personally identifiable information (PII) in USA lawsuits since WMF is based in USA. My hypothesis is that WMF would not disclose PII to foreign courts. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:20, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
Yes, the first case at Litigation involving the Wikimedia Foundation talks about WMF declining a British court order in 2011. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:30, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
It's been more than 24 hours and the Wikimedia Foundation has not taken down the page. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:22, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
Next meeting in court is on monday, I think. Stay tuned. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:28, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
Update: ANI asks HC to initate contempt case against Misplaced Pages, says 36 hr deadline over. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:34, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
  • So, notwithstanding the fact that WMF's lawyer did broach a "sealed cover" approach, WMF appealed the order — this time, being represented by a different lawyer — petitioning that the Court must find the accusation of defamation to be prima facie true before ordering disclosure. However, the appeal was not granted and additionally, WMF was asked to take down the page(s) on the litigation. TrangaBellam (talk) 06:29, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
    I was just reading that article, it's quite interesting. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:31, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
    It is the same lawyer, Akhil Sibal, representing WMF in the main case as well as the appeal. The appeal was a bit pointless. See below. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
  • My understanding of the case at this point is that it is at "ground 0", meaning it hasn't taken off. ANI wants to sue somebody for defamation, it doesn't know who. It can't sue WMF because, under the Indian law, WMF is just an "intermediary", equivalent to a television cable company that just trasmits signals. The people that can be sued are the authors of the content, of which there are probably many. Somehow or the other, ANI narrowed down to three editors who, it believes, can be held liable for defamation. So it is weighing in on WMF to reveal their identities. The court, quite reasonably, agrees that it needs to be done. Unless they appear in court and plead, the case doesn't even begin. So, when the WMF lawyer says, I will provide the information in a "sealed cover", I think he doesn't undrestand what is going on (in fact "clueless" would be more accurate). There are only two ways out. Either WMF reveals the identities of the editors so that they can appear in court and plead. Or, WMF waives its status as an "intermediary", and pleads on their behalf. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:05, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
  • WMF has told us the information is in the US, that they will only release under U.S. law, and told us what those laws are under which a foreign tribunal could get their hands on the information. I hope WMF thinks the court is already pounding sand. fiveby(zero) 16:21, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
Your analysis is missing the WMF's argument that the court must first make a prima facie determination as to whether the content was defamatory before it orders the WMF to turn over identifying information they have on editors. That determination really can't be made, when the Misplaced Pages content is (1) true, and (2) simply a summary of public facts already published elsewhere. Levivich (talk) 00:42, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
Judge Chawla did make some remarks in the initial stages, which sounded like he made that determination. But to contest that, WMF would have had to plead, which it has refused to do, claiming itself to be an "intermediary". Recall again an "intermediary" is like a cable company that just transmits signals. Twitter has tried to do something like that a year ago, to contest the blocks the government was ordering. It lost. The judge said that it had no locus standi because it was just an "intermediary". The only people that could contest the blocks would be the authors of the content. If I was WMF I would have filed a motion to dismiss, on the grounds that Misplaced Pages just summarises what the reliable sources say. So the people that can be held to be liable are the authors of those sources, not Misplaced Pages. But that point has not been brought up in front of the court yet. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 07:53, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
@Kautilya3 Per B&B, Sibal made the argument:

One of the articles hyperlinked to ANI’s page is of The Caravan. When Misplaced Pages argued that the publication had not been made party to the case, the Court called it a convenient answer:

An article published by say X magazine which is read by a hundred people, you don’t bother about it…it does not have the gravitas that it deserves a suit of defamation. If it comes to Misplaced Pages, it is not going to have a viewership of hundred, it may have it in millions and then it becomes a cause of disturbance.

TrangaBellam (talk) 09:45, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, I noticed. This is probably part of what transpired in the 20th August hearing, which I was asking about a while ago. It did not get reported in the press at that time. The WMF lawyer gives me the impression of trying to bargain with the judge(s) rather than to assert our rights forcefully on legal grounds. My disappointment continues. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:46, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
It is part of our fundamental msision is to bring to the public, knowledge that might be known only to a select few. We cannot be faulted for doing this. We are not producing our own knowledge here, only collating it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:51, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
Agreed, but at least for me, there is a difference between "knowledge that might be known only to a select few" and "pushing fringe sources, limited to a selected few (for good reasons), as authoritative to defame someone or something, thereby promoting the fringe source in the process." This issue is not just limited to ANI, but practically applies to all Indian media news channels that do not bash the incumbent government day and night, using motivated and third-class sources like Mohd Zubair's Alt News. Should self-proclaimed fact-checkers and rival news agencies be used to defame other news agencies? Please do a quick check regarding this if you don't believe me. It's not just about ANI. When someone starts using these sources as authoritative to defame something or someone, it becomes difficult to determine who is at fault—the source, the people pushing those sources, Misplaced Pages itself, the Misplaced Pages community that allows this, or the person who feels they are being defamed because they are trying to censor "free speech." The thing is, no discussion will result in anything unless all parties are determined that they are right and the other is wrong. Let's just leave this to the court. My comments on this issue end here. DangalOh (talk) 15:01, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
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