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Requests for arbitration

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Wikipediocracy-related conduct

Initiated by Sincerely, Dilettante at 19:07, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Proposed parties

• Dilettante (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), filing party
• Lightburst (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Just Step Sideways (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Homeostasis07 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• AndyTheGrump (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Silver seren (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• TarnishedPath (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Levivich (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• diff of notification Lightburst
• diff of notification Just Step Sideways
• diff of notification Homeostasis07
• diff of notification AndyTheGrump
• diff of notification Silver Seren
• diff of notification TarnishedPath
• diff of notification Levivich

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

• Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1161#AndyTheGrump's_(ATG)_hostility,_editing_to_favor_deletion_and_canvassing
• Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know/Archive_199#Future_RFC_on_BLPs_at_DYK (plus, to an extent, the following three threads)
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1165#user:TarnishedPath
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1169#Disruptive_edits_by_user:Lightburst
• Talk:Mamie_Lake_(Wisconsin)#Merge_Proposal
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Lightburst_making_poorly_disguised_personal_attacks_and_hosting_WP:POLEMIC_content_in_his_userpage
• User_talk:Levivich#ANI
• User_talk:Lightburst#Re:ANI
• User_talk:Lightburst/Archive_1-31-25#false_accusations

Statement by Dilettante

This case is the result of periodic argument between 'pro-' and 'anti-WPO' factions, particularly in relation to Lightburst's edits that have escalated to the point that the very mention of WPO can derail a discussion. Though the closer of the most recent ANI recommended against an arbcom case yet, the only sanction with consensus was a WP:VEXBYSTERANG and does not address the root problem, or, if such exists, the root users at fault. ANI is not meant to handle cases of alleged off-wiki misconduct, nor has it dealt with on-wiki PAs against Wikipediocrats e.g.

Most of my evidence is off-wiki or relies on a combination of on- and off-wiki posts so I'll email that later today. Additionally, I have evidence against someone— who is not listed as a party due to filing limits and lack of on-wiki evidence—which I believe should warrant an indef, if not a ban.

Daniel To be clear, I think your close was fine and accurately assessed consensus. Sincerely, Dilettante 21:16, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

AndytheGrump. Sorry about that! I probably leaned too much into drafting several emails to arbcom with more context and failed to make this case request clear—at least in part because it's common for arbcom to alter or expand the scope.

WPO is not the crux of the public discussion (private, I have no idea, not knowing who will submit evidence and what specific links there'll be). The focus is that several users of the pro- and anti- faction have repeatedly argued in uncivil manner. Some of this happened on-wiki, some off-wiki, but ANI has yet to solve the issue.

I will state my request is related to a few key topics that cannot currently be resolved without a shitstorm of an RFC:

• To what extent, if any, should posts on WPO be considered canvassing? (in relation to the Bent's Camp discussion, Daniel's recent close, and other discussions) What about if they use language that is blatantly biased when compared to the neutral Template:Please see?
• To what extent, if any, is positively interacting (via publicly connected accounts) with Misplaced Pages-related posts that would be revdelled or oversighted if on-wiki, acceptable?

I am almost certain these won't be fully clarified by arbcom if this is accepted, but it would hopefully clear the air and allow for non-toxic discourse at a later date. Sincerely, Dilettante 23:00, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Swatjester The focus is that several users of the pro- and anti- faction have repeatedly argued in uncivil manner. I don't expect arbcom to do anything about the existence of WPO nor to ban people from publicly using both websites (and I wouldn't want that obviously!). Sincerely, Dilettante 23:23, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Lightburst

Statement by Just Step Sideways

Well, here we are at last. The idea of a case has been being increasingly discussed at the various extremely long threads where this issue has been festering. That last one is on me, but in my mind I was just reporting trolling and expected a quick block for such, but instead... well.. you can see what happened instead.

It is not entirely clear to me what the scope of such a case would be, but I do think the list of prior discussions above shows we have a fairly intractible problem here, and review of those discussions will certainly show some users making utterly bizzare claims and accusations, and if we look at the closing admin of the most recent ANI's talk page, you will also see a user calling for comments from anyone perveived to be "from WPO" to be discounted entirely.To his credit, Daniel immidiately replied that he did not do so and stated I did not disregard contributions from those who are either confirmed or alleged to have WPO accounts, no. They are editors in good standing and offered a reasonable argument that had consensus support. The statement "once you put aside votes from WPO" is divisive and the view to disregard their contributions to the debate, again, did not have support to do so. This is the mentality we are looking at here, that commenting at WPO makes you less of a Wikipedian, that anyone who has commented there is equally guilty for any other action that has ever happened there, that being the subject of commentary of any kind there excuses terrible behavior here, that users need to "pick a side," and so on.

Probably the primary issue for the committee will be the contention that being discussed, attacked, outed, etc over there (I'm not looking to sugar coat anything, all that stuff does happen) has some sort of mitigating effect that excuses on-wiki conduct such as trolling, casting unfounded aspersions, misrepresenting what was said overe there to discount someone's comments here, etc. The committee has in the past held that this is not the case,(can provide pointers where to find this in email archives if desired) that we can feel some degree of sympathy for someone in that situation but that does not excuse their own poor behavior. Or, as my mom taught me when I was a small child: two wrongs don't make a right.

Another possible aspect is the on-wiki evidence-free demonization of users who dare to contribute to both sites, and the desired chilling effect from doing so. The way we have always done things is basically summed up by "provide some evidence or STFU" or I guess just WP:ASPERSIONS and vague accusations, which needs to stop. If someone is that terrible, evidence can be emailed to the commitee. If they just made a coment elsewhere that someone doesn't like, too bad.

I'm probably going to need a word extension if this moves forward.

Statement by Homeostasis07

Statement by AndyTheGrump

I fail to see how anyone could be expected to meaningfully respond to such a vague request. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:40, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Having seen some of the statements posted here subsequent to the above, I would perhaps suggest that if anything useful is to come from this ill-defined case request, it should consist of a reminder to all concerned that claims of alleged misconduct are required to be backed up by evidence when requested, that article talk pages, AfD discussions etc are not appropriate forums for such matters, and that making repeated nebulous and unverifiable allegations, whether naming a particular Misplaced Pages contributor or not, is disruptive regardless of where it takes place. Needless to say, this sort of behaviour is not unique to matters concerning Wikipediocracy, but is instead a common occurrence in disputes on Misplaced Pages, and on WP:AN and WP:ANI in particular. I suspect that a great many WP:ANI threads would be substantially shorter if this basic principle was enforced. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:49, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Silver Seren

I'm not really sure what to assert or address here for this filing. On the general topic in question, I guess all I have to say is that all of Arbcom, past and present members, should be more than aware of the long history of Wikipediocracy users being involved in harassment of dozens of Misplaced Pages editors, driving many of them off the project. This has included rampant doxxing and even incidents of editors' employers being contacted in order to cause them some harm because of them editing Misplaced Pages. This is all well known history spanning years and such incidents continue to happen over and over. Deflections of "off-wiki activities are unenforceable for known on-wiki current editors" hold less and less water as each new incident is added to the pile, particularly when those WPO users (the non-banned ones at least) involved in the derogatory commentary and harassment are simultaneously commenting and acting in the related on-wiki discussions. Silverseren 22:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Statement by TarnishedPath

If this case is to go ahead its focal point should be how the community has not been able to deal with the behaviour of Lightburst and those who have derailed discussions by making personal attacks and cast aspersion mostly based on bullshit guilt by association arguments. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1161#Moneytrees report about Lightburst for Moneytrees damning report which was excused by members of this community as an example. TarnishedPath 22:57, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
@Dilettante: The focus is that several users of the pro- and anti- faction have repeatedly argued in uncivil manner. If there is a pro faction can you please identify it because I don't see one. I've seen a bunch of editors excusing LB's behaviour with bullshit guilt by association arguments regarding WPO. TarnishedPath 09:08, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Tryptofish

This filing is an overreaction, and the issue does not rise to the level of requiring ArbCom to get involved (unless some private evidence of harassment emerges, that ArbCom would need to deal with in private). ArbCom should decline it. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:15, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Daniel

Firstly, thanks to Dilettante for not including me in the list of parties — my only involvement has been to close the latest ANI mega-thread per the consensus of the proposals, so I agree with not being included (and am, quite frankly, glad) even though some people in their shoes may have done so.

Dropping by here given both Dilettante and JSS have referenced my actions or words. At this stage I don't have anything to add to my words at the ANI close (including relevant subsections) and subsequent user talk page discussion. I do agree with Dilettante that the current mood of this dispute on-wiki indeed " escalated to the point that the very mention of WPO can derail a discussion". Which makes me especially despondent as there are good-faith experienced editors that I hold immense respect for on both sides who have been caugh up in this.

Finally, just acknowledging that I will make myself as available as possible to answer any questions from members of the Committee should they have any, although I hope my tangental involvement means this won't be necessary; plus I am travelling overseas as of this morning so if I am slightly delayed in doing so, my apologies in advance.

Thanks,
Daniel (talk) 20:01, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Statement by JPxG

This filing does not make a whole lot of sense to me as something that would be best handled by ArbCom, but if this is simply going to become the general location for everyone to say their thing about WPO, I guess I will do so:

I do not think people should be blocked here merely for posting there, as most people there act normal.

I also do not think we should go trying to sniff around on some other site dusting for fingerprints investigating which editor goes to which pseudonym.

I do think that if you post over there, openly identifying yourself with the same name as you use over here, and you say extremely rude things about other editors, or try to whip up support for your own crusades onwiki, people over here should be able to take you to task for it. I don't think this is "collective guilt" or "BADSITES".

Also, this is obviously not an issue for the committee, but I think that the people who run the site should consider telling the dox guys to cut it out, as what they do is not only cruel and harassing, but also pointless and stupid. jp×g🗯️ 20:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

In response to the posts on WPO: when I say "dox" I mean, mostly, the thing where some guy posts a list of your family members and photos of you from Facebook, or joins the Discord to scroll through hundreds of posts and do a strings-on-corkboard of where your family vacation is, not the expansive WP:OUTING thing which includes "Misplaced Pages user Conezone863 wrote a spam article about Zombocom and Twitter user Conezone863 claims to be the CEO of Zombocom". jp×g🗯️ 02:42, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

@HJ Mitchell: This filing does not make a whole lot of sense to me as something that would be best handled by ArbCom, I don't know how to say that more directly. jp×g🗯️ 01:39, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Carrite

It's really unthoughtful and hurtful that a case proposal like this can be made by the filer without making me a party. I mean, with of posts made to WPO over more than a decade, one would think that some sort of lame accusation could be cobbled together charging me with crimes against the state. What makes Andy the Grump and Beebs so special? And my connection between my WP nym and my WPO nym has been clearly made multiple times on-wiki, unlike other similarly-named accounts here and there. If we're gonna redo the WP:BADSITES case, let's at least be thorough with the axe-griding in this proposal for a pointless Arbcom timesink. --Tim Davenport /// Carrite (talk) 22:19, 21 October 2024 (UTC) /// Randy from Boise on WPO.

@JPxG - The "Dox Guys" are not Wikipedians and thus would be unaffected by sanctions here; nor is the WPO policy towards doxxing what you probably think it is. Carrite (talk) 22:40, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@dilettante - Per: To what extent, if any, should posts on WPO be considered canvassing? (in relation to the Bent's Camp discussion, Daniel's recent close, and other discussions) — The canvassing argument would be interesting to make. Bent's Camp is a perfect illustration that "There is no cabal" as it was Andy and me doing battle over the fate of that article, which I improved significantly during the AfD debate. But please hold an RFC on that issue, if it's huge for you, it is not a matter for Arbcom. (Bent's Camp was an honest deletionist/inclusionist difference of opinion.) Carrite (talk) 23:28, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Liz

While I know that I appreciate a case being started on the intersection of Misplaced Pages and Wikipediocracy and WPO has certainly been at the center of some lively discussions on noticeboards, I think Dilettante's filing has failed to identify what the "problem" is that the arbitration committee is being addressed to resolve. Being controversial doesn't, in itself, require intervention, especially from ARBCOM and since this request was just posted, maybe the answer to my question will be become clearer over the next day or two. But just being a hot button issue is not sufficient for the committee to take on a case, there must be some misconduct going on or some intractable dispute and I don't see that existing in this case request. For the record, I think the subject is suitable for consideration but I don't think this case request defines what the committee is being asked to adjudicate or why certain editors have been included as parties simply because they participated in some of these discussions. That is, I'm not sure what misconduct on THIS PROJECT is being highlighted of being of concern. Liz 22:20, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Swatjester

It's not clear what this case request is about. Is it about the existence of WPO? Discussion of WPO on-wiki? Allegations of off-wiki misbehavior? Daniel's close? I cannot tell from the filing what the scope of this case is intended to be.

Disregard; in the time between starting this, getting distracted, and coming back to it, the request was clarified to be more specific. I don't think this is the right venue to answer the question of whether WPO posts should be considered canvassing -- in fact, I don't think that question is really relevant to WPO directly at all. There is, probably, value in a generalized discussion at WP:CANVAS about whether the terms and definitions of that page (in particular, the WP:STEALTH part) apply to an off-wiki discussion about on-wiki discussion in circumstances where it is unclear or questionable that the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way is present; or how to construe that in the context of a forum where users will have differing, often contradictory opinions and intentions. But I don't see why that should be done here as opposed to fixing the guideline that's too ambiguous.⇒SWATJester 23:27, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Softlavender

This case request seems pointless to me, because no issues are mentioned other than WP vs WPO, which ArbCom has no jurisdiction in and no desire to patrol. If there are issues that can only be raised privately to ArbCom, there is no reason for a case (it should be an internal-only affair), and the community cannot comment.

If the case is against (alleged) long-term disruption or disruptiveness by Lightburst, and/or their excess mention of WPO on WP, then the case should be against Lightburst exclusively, not on a mysterious cabal of people who either post on WPO or post on WP about WPO.

I suggest that the committee decline this case. I also suggest that the filer is apparently too much of a newbie (on-wiki for barely two years) to know how ArbCom and ArbCom cases work. Softlavender (talk) 01:19, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

To add to the above: The only clearly stated item/question in the filer's case request is not something ArbCom does or handles. Namely: "To what extent, if any, should posts on WPO be considered canvassing?" ArbCom does not set policy or adjudicate canvassing. Off-wiki WP:CANVASSING is by definition off-wiki WP:CANVASSING.

Therefore, I still recommend declining this public case request. Any serious infractions that can only be handled via private communication should be handled via private communication. Softlavender (talk) 03:50, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Dronebogus

I too am confused about what this is supposed to specifically address. ArbCom can’t wave a magic wand and fix everything wrong here (and there is a LOT wrong here). When people (including myself) complain about WPO, it’s usually about how the numerous threads dedicated to mocking and insulting specific editors could be viewed as outing, off-wiki harassment and canvassing/encouragement for on-wiki attacks. That much seems cut and dry. Why are we beating around the bush here? (Sorry for all the mixed metaphors) Dronebogus (talk) 07:05, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Levivich

Statement by Mangoe

This ought to go nowhere except perhaps as a great WP:BOOMERANG. Homeostasis07 makes a false claim about doxxing, and once again it is Airing of Grievances Against WPO time. People are going to make WP-critical sites and forums; people on those forums aren't going to feel themselves bound by on-WP rules there, and WP participants are going to show up at those sites both to engage the criticism and to have discussions which aren't really possible on WP. It's tempting to say that if you don't like being criticized there, don't do things that invite criticism, but at any rate it seems to me that almost all disruption centered around WPO is caused on this end by people making a fuss about it. This case submission seems to be a poorly focused example of the latter. Mangoe (talk) 12:49, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Rhododendrites

There are two ways for arbcom to take this case.

The narrow way is just to consider whether there should be an interaction ban between and . Meh to that.

The broad way is to scrutinize the status quo regarding WPO, the information that arises there, WP:HARASS, WP:CANVAS, and WP:COI.

Here is the status quo, as I see it:

• Legitimate issues are occasionally raised on WPO which should be addressed on-wiki (and by "should be addressed on-wiki" I mean it should result in action on-wiki, but also that it should just be brought up and discussed on-wiki instead of on WPO). When that happens the community -- and arbcom, via the Nihonjoe case -- has shown that it is willing to put on blinders to the provenance of actionable information and all the harassment, doxing, and insults that takes place around it. It becomes acceptable for people to be canvassed via WPO, show up on-wiki, and !vote together when they are fundamentally correct about the content (the sickly state of WP:BRINE).
• When provenance and canvassing do arise, proof would require linking to harmful threads (and it's not practical to email arbcom to respond to a brief ANI thread), and at some point someone -- often the same few people -- simply denies anything bad happened at all, scolds those who suggest otherwise, and redirects people to focus on what they can see on-wiki. In practice, this means that in a large thread about WPO and Lightburst, the only sanction to come out of it was a topic ban... for someone criticizing WPO. Many of the supports for that tban came from WPO members , and no mention of that in the closing statement. Not saying a tban was/wasn't justified -- just that, because there's a legitimate complaint about aspersions, nobody cares that WPO regulars turned out to silence a critic.

I'd lean towards suggesting arbcom decline this broad scope, however, in large part because I fear we will get a long, ugly case that ends up doing more harm than good. I think arbcom is typically reluctant to extend its jurisdiction off-wiki except in truly extreme cases. As long as the target "deserves it" (i.e. is wrong in some capacity) and as long as the most extreme stuff comes from those who are already banned or aren't known Wikipedians, it would be too easy for arbcom to unofficially bless harassing/insulting/canvassing off-wiki and/or cheering on already-banned or unidentified users who do that and worse, cracking jokes with them, proxying for them, and/or taking action on-wiki based on what they turn up. — Rhododendrites \\ 12:43, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Statement by {Non-party}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.

Wikipediocracy-related conduct: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• @JPxG: your statement does not address whether there is a case to be heard involving this list of parties or similar or whether there is anything ArbCom can do about the dispute between them. Could you kindly refactor or remove? This isn't the place for general discussion about Wikipediocracy. Thank you, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:34, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipediocracy-related conduct: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <0/0/0>

Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse)

• ArbCom can't stop editors being rude about each other on another website. Nor can we realistically prevent mention of that website on Misplaced Pages. But we can deal with long-term feuding between editors if community processes have been unable to do so. Statements (and please keep them concise) should focus on that. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:30, 21 October 2024 (UTC)