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::*], the problem with (the second half of) this Section title "and the Ukrainian anti-German uprising" is that there is no source which talks about an "Ukrainian anti-German uprising" instead you have texts related to various skirmishes between UPA and German military units, and that UPA's relationship with the German occupiers varied in different times, but no greater Ukrainian anti-German uprising. It's just not there (like with the ]).
::*], the problem with (the second half of) this Section title "and the Ukrainian anti-German uprising" is that there is no source which talks about an "Ukrainian anti-German uprising" instead you have texts related to various skirmishes between UPA and German military units, and that UPA's relationship with the German occupiers varied in different times, but no greater Ukrainian anti-German uprising. It's just not there (like with the ]). Also, UPA was just as much created in order to fight against Poles and the Soviets, however this section titles makes it sound like the primary reason for UPA's creation was anti-German insurgency.
:::Also, there is an on-line article, which describes this type of a situation, where statements are inserted into Misplaced Pages that have no academic consensus or a source, to back up their validity: https://www.wired.com/story/one-womans-mission-to-rewrite-nazi-history-wikipedia/
:::Also, there is an on-line article, which describes this type of a situation, where statements are inserted into Misplaced Pages that have no academic consensus or a source, to back up their validity: https://www.wired.com/story/one-womans-mission-to-rewrite-nazi-history-wikipedia/
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Inconsistent Cassaulty numbers in the same paragraph
The second paragraph in the introduction includes these two contradictory sentences back to back. Please fix this. I would but the article is locked. Thanks
"The UPA's actions resulted in up to 100,000 deaths. Estimates of the death toll range between 60,000 to 120,000. "
104.246.224.162 (talk) 08:20, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
Unsourced changes to fatality count
@Reaper1945: Please provide a substantive reason for your reversion. There's a range with a citation. It's not in the spirit of collaborative editing to just change a number without any reason, without a source, and without a discussion.
|I’m not sure why that request is addressed to me Daniel Quinlan. Also Reaper1945’s edit seems to me correct as it gives the number range in the fully referenced body, which the info box should summarise, rather than arbitrarily picking one source. BobFromBrockley (talk) 04:17, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
I pinged you because of your edit here. I don't have access to that source, but that's the one you left next to the estimate you used. And if there are other sources being used for the Infobox fatality numbers then they should also be cited there. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 04:27, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
@Bobfrombrockley, @Daniel Quinlan; please don't confuse genocide in Volhynia, which indeed consumed c. 50-60k people, with the entire OUN-UPA "anti-Polish action" which resulted in the death of c. 100k people. It's well explained in the lead and the body Marcelus (talk) 05:13, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
I don't have access to that source, which relates solely to Czech deaths and was already there when I edited. My edit was to remove Motyka and his 100,000 in favour of the range of numbers which are given, with sources, in our relevant section, as there is no reason to pick Motyka over the other sources and the infobox should reflect the body.
Motyka, unlike most other historians mentioned on that page, focused his academic work on the Polish-Lithuanian conflict and UPA massacres, reaserching this subject for decades. His calculations are based on extensive read of sources and are by far the most recent ones. Marcelus (talk) 12:25, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
So you're saying we should use Motyka in the infobox but not Grzegorz Rossoliński-Liebe and Per Anders Rudling, for example, who have also been researching this subject for decades? And also Motyka gives slightly different figures in different publications - which source do you want to be the single one cited by the infobox? BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:13, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
Neither Rossoliński nor Rudling were researching the "anti-Polish" action of UPA or making any kind of their own calculations. Motyka's 2011 Od rzezi wołyńskiej do akcji Wisła is the most recent of Motyka's calculations. Marcelus (talk) 14:57, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
Is there any way you could give a more detailed summary of what he actually said, perhaps a translation of a direct quotation that we could include in a footnote? I believe it was published in English last year. It would be verify that scholars agree it is definitive compared to other texts. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:30, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
Sure; in my translation:
It is not easy to give the number of people who were victims of all these events. This is not the place to discuss the rich literature on the subject and the interesting discussion accompanying the disputes on the subject. Let us point out that the largest number of Poles suffered death in Volhynia. According to the findings of Władysław and Ewa Siemaszko, in 1943 at least at least 33,000 Poles, of whom about 19,000 are known by name. The total number of those killed at the hands of Ukrainian nationalists there may be in the range of 40 to as many as 60 thousand people. In Eastern Galicia, estimates of of 30-40 thousand Polish victims, while in the lands of present-day Poland 6-8 thousand Poles perished.
In light of the numbers cited, it seems that Polish losses as a result of the UPA's actions probably amounted to about 100 thousand dead (with which is more likely to be slightly less, rather than more than 100 thousand). Any higher numbers quoted - 150 or even 200 thousand victims - are not are confirmed by any serious scientific studies, and their frequent appearance in the media can probably only be explained by a the desire to create a sensation.
Let us note that the vast majority of Polish victims fell before the conclusion of the AK-WiN and UPA agreements in the spring of 1945 (from the meeting in the vicinity of Ruda Różaniecka until the end of 1947 died at the hands of the Ukrainian underground in Poland about 3,000 people, in large part soldiers of the Polish Army, WOP and KBW). This shows how important for the Polish historical memory is the first stage of the conflict.
Much controversy surrounds the assessment of Ukrainian losses. Ten years ago, probably as the first Polish historian, I tried to estimate them. To the best of my knowledge at the time, I concluded that 15,000-20,000 Ukrainians were killed as a result of Polish actions. Today, in light of the latest data, I would be inclined to lower the number of Ukrainian victims somewhat. Probably 2,000 to 3,000 Ukrainians were killed at the Polish hand in Volhynia (not counting those killed by auxiliary police). In Eastern Galicia, 1-2 thousand Ukrainians were killed. The situation was completely different in the lands of present-day Poland. More Ukrainians than Poles were killed there in 1943-1947, probably 8-10 thousand (3-4 thousand by the summer of 1944 and 5-6 thousand in the period 1944-1947). The total would give a figure of 10-11 thousand to 15 thousand killed. Again, giving higher numbers is not supported by any scientific research. Let's emphasize it clearly - the numbers of 30, 50 or even 70 thousand killed Ukrainians found in Ukrainian textbooks are simply taken "from the ceiling."Marcelus (talk) 16:29, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
In the section "Second World War", there is some very obfuscatory language used. "There were acts of diversion" is an evasive way of referring to deadly attacks. "The Polish side responded with pacifications, in which probably several hundred people were killed": This is a misuse of the word "pacification".
These terms are euphemisms for illegal killings, and I propose to delete the subsection "Ukrainian diversion in September 1939". Perhaps someone familiar with the subject-matter could rewrite the subsection using more direct language. MrDemeanour (talk) 09:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
Wrong cat
Greetings @Piotrus , we can't justify having wrong categories with some other wrongs elsewhere (or here) .
Since this article is only editable by established editors, could I ask for the incorporation of the following changes to the text that are more accurate:
Change "The UPA's actions resulted in up to 100,000 deaths." to "The UPA's actions resulted in the death of around 100,000 Poles."
Remove: "The ruling Germans also actively encouraged both Ukrainians and Poles to kill each other." and from section title remove"...and the Ukrainian anti-German uprising".
The first statement is somewhat problematic because though the Germans might have instigated ethnic hatred on a lower level there is no evidence that they directly worked with UPA to organize the massacres, so this statement should not be included in the lead as it suggest the Germans were the co-organizers. Also, the second statement is problematic because UPA only operated in the Kresy region (now Western Ukraine) so this was not a Greater Ukrainian uprising and also its scope was very limited as UPA spent most of its time on attacking Poles and Soviet partisans. So, this is a very questionable claim especially to be used in a section title. 94.172.109.57 (talk) 17:02, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
Nihil novi, the problem with (the second half of) this Section title "and the Ukrainian anti-German uprising" is that there is no source which talks about an "Ukrainian anti-German uprising" instead you have texts related to various skirmishes between UPA and German military units, and that UPA's relationship with the German occupiers varied in different times, but no greater Ukrainian anti-German uprising. It's just not there (like with the Slovak National Uprising). Also, UPA was just as much created in order to fight against Poles and the Soviets, however this section titles makes it sound like the primary reason for UPA's creation was anti-German insurgency.
Example from the article of this type claims in Misplaced Pages:
"In early November 2015, you will find K.e.coffman in “20 July plot,” an article about the failed plan by German officers to assassinate Hitler. A sentence has jumped out at her. It says that some of the conspirators came to see the plot as “a grand, if futile gesture” that would save “the honour of themselves, their families, the army and Germany.” The claim isn’t supported by any sources. It’s conjecture, hearsay. And to her it seems strangely flattering."
Also, the second statement is problematic and should not be in the Lead "the ruling Germans also actively encouraged both Ukrainians and Poles to kill each other." This statement fails an accuracy check, based on what the sources actually say and could be considered as an overstatement. Also, other reliable sources like IPN say this "Thus, the Poles did not seek to create conflict situations." https://volhyniamassacre.eu/zw2/history/178,The-Genocide-on-Poles-Conducted-by-the-OUN-B-and-UPA.html this is why the statement should not be in the lead, as it's out of place, oversimplified, and its conclusion is disputed in academic discourse.
Lastly, regarding this statement "The UPA's actions resulted in up to 100,000 deaths" the number whatever it is, should clearly say "Poles", not "people" as it creates confusion and the reader is left wondering if this is everyone, including Armenians, Jews, Russians, Czechs, Georgians or anti-UPA Ukrainians. Also, the sources already cited say this (source no. 10): "...a hundred thousand Poles perished." This statement needs to clearly say "Poles". --94.172.109.57 (talk) 05:33, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
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Referencing and citation: criterion met
