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The dating of the tolkaappiyam supplied (600BC) is probably too far back in time. Most historians place it at 500BC~200BC. Additionally, this article is marred by hyperbole - can the people-who-know update this page with more concrete information?

Can you provide the concrete proof for your counter argument. If so, we can fix it up. --Rrjanbiah 05:56, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I am very much interested (and have done some work on this) in contributing material on the scientific manner in which TolKaappiyam describes Tamil Grammar. Will do so in the coming days. Not very much knowledgable about the history though. -- Sundar 14:50, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Sundar, I appreciate it. --Rrjanbiah 06:29, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

tolkaappiyam is older then 200 B.C.

vEtRumai urubu

Does some one know the English equivalent of vEtrumai urubu? -- Sundar 11:35, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

Doesnt it mean prepostion(though not exactly?) -- Sanjeeth

Yeah, I'm concerned about the not exactly part. Actually it is the English equivalent, as you know, but the actual position in the sentence syntax is very different from that of Tamil. I remember having read something similar being called a conjugal. -- Sundar 06:14, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps it might mean postposition, which is a type of word which functions just like a preposition but comes after the noun phrase rather than before. — Hippietrail 11:46, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Ya, after coming across that, even I feel that would be appropriate. -- Sundar 12:06, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)

Alphabets

Both this article and Tamil language use the word alphabets in the plural sever times over in contexts which make it quite clear that the correct word should be either letters or characters. Is this a mere oversight or is there some reason for it? — Hippietrail 11:46, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It was partially due to the fact that I am not a native English speaker. Thanks for pointing out. Will correct that. -- Sundar 12:01, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)

Book

Got the text from the Tamil language page Tholkappiam-In English with Critical Studies-By Dr.S.IlakkuvanarM.A.M.O.L.Ph.D. Published By: M.Neelamalar,Educational Publishers,52/3 Soundarya colony,Annanagar west,Chennai-600101

Dates

Tholkaappiyam is definitely pre 300 BCE. Sangam literature is proven to be 200 BCE - 200 CE based on epigraphical evidences, numismatics, literary citations etc.(for example Dr. I. Mahadevan). Tholkaappiyam is pre-Sangam work (while the existence of 2nd Sangam and 1st Sangam may be questionable, due to lack of concrete evidence other than iRaiyanaar akapporuL, a work of later period, the existence of the so called last sangam is not in doubt. Tholkaappiyam belongs to a period before the 'last' sangam. There are opinions that some parts of it are of later period etc., but the consensus is that it is pre-300 BCE, with very littel dispute. (claiming 500 BCE, 700 BCE etc. require more support). --Aadal 18:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

kannith thamizh

It is said in the article, 'earning the sobriquet, kannith thamil, which can mean ever-young Tamil or "virgin Tamil".' But the word kanni means either First or 'azhivillaa' (invincible, deathless, endless). The names KanniammaaL, Kanniyappan means one who is invincible (azivillaathavaL/n). KannippOr (kanni+pOr) means maiden war (first participation/debut in war). Kannith thamizh does not mean virgin tamil. It means ever-fresh, unspoiled, ever-vibrant thamizh. In the sense of virgin forest etc. virgin tamil would be correct. --Aadal 18:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Proposed merger from Tolkaappiyar

The edit history of Tolkaappiyar says, June 2006, created the page since no page is preexist on this wonderful master piece in Tamil. Someone who knows the subject should obviously merge the duplicated articles. --Mereda 16:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

'Aindra' schools of grammar

According to A Concise History of Classical Sanskrit Literature, By Gaurinath Shastri, The Aindra schools of Sanskrit grammarians was one of a dozen or so ancient sanskrit schools 'each of which is represented by a reputed writer or established reputation'. Indra, or Aindra is mentioned as the first of the grammarians. This was later subplanted by Panini's schools of grammar.

I read a parallel to the legend that Tolkappiyam is based on Agattiyam, the grammar book written by Agastya and that Tolkappiyar was a student of Agastya. 'Was there an ancient Aindra school of grammar? Taittiriya samhita (6.4.7) connects the vedic god Indra to the origin of grammar: "Speech indeed spoke formerly without manifestation (avya krta). The gods said to Indra: 'do manifest this speech forus'... Indra approaching it from the middle made it manifest. Therefore speech is manifest (vya krta)" - From Patanjali's introduction to the Mahabhashya, quoted in Staal, J.F., "Sanskrit Philosophy of Language", Current Trends in Linguistics, 5, pp. 499-531, 1969.'

Panini: a survey of research By George Cardona states that there is no proof that there was indeed an Aindra school of grammar. It also states that this legend was concocted to state that Panini's work was based on older grammatical works of divine origins. It quotes Patanjali's Mahabhasya: '...Bhraspati proclaimed to Indra for a thousand heaven years a complete text of words listed individually and yet he did not get to teh end' (evam hi sruyate: brhaspatir indraya divyam varsa-sahasram prati-paroktanam sabdanam sabda-parayanam provaca nantam jagama. On the bases of such passages, it has been supposed that there was a grammar (vyakarana) by Indra (hence called Aindra), the pupil of Brahaspati. Conclusion: Sastri's claim is simply a means to note that Tolkappiyam was ancient by alluding to the legends that it was based on the grammar of Agastya and Indra.

I am removing the mention about the Aindra school based on the above argument. - Parthi 01:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Your arguments do not anywhere counter N.Shastri's version.Even if there is a counter version to that ; the correct way will be to insert that argument into the article rather than removing the referenced information .-Bharatveer 04:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

== Hi guys its seems like that Sanskrit lover are always irked with Tamil language and this inclusion and discussion about the a school that doesnt even have existence prove is discussed and that too in the first passage. Hats off to your dedicated love to "Hamara Bharat" slogan, i think it goes only for non-hindi speakers. Get off from this page and do something usefull for the country.

YOU IDIOTS FOR YOUR INFORMATION THE NAME THOLKAPIAM MEANS 'OLD LITERATURE' AND SINCE NAME IS DATED FROM THE COPY VERSION AND ACTUAL PERIOD OF HIS OR HER LIFE TIME IS NOT KNOWN, EVEN HIS NAME IS NOT KNOWN THATS WHY THE NAME OF THE LITERATURE IS GIVEN AFTER THE BOOK. AND YOU IDIOTS WITH KIDNEY IN HEAD ARE ARGUING THAT HE IS RELATED TO A BULL SHIT HEAD. HA HA DONT EXPOSE YOUR KNOWLEDGE. ==

Chapter names

Can someone please include translations of the chapter names when they are listed?

--Selket 17:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Influence of Sanskrit grammarians See also: Aindra school of grammar Tolkāppiyam is claimed to have been modelled on the Sanskrit grammar of the Aindra school. The preface of Ilampuranar's twelfth century commentary of the Tolkappiyam, describes it as aindiram nirainda ('comprising aindra').. This annotation was interpreted by Arthur Coke Burnell as alluding to the pre-Paninian Aindra school of Sanskrit grammar mentioned in the Ashtadhyayi. To investigate his hunch, Burnell compared the Tolkappiyam with the non Paninian Katyantra grammar and concluded that the Tolkappiyam indeed exhibited a strong influence of the non Paninian school of grammar. However, this claim has also been met with skepticism from recent researchers.

Is it relevant to this artica and especially Aindra school of grammer story? Its very much racially manipulated passage.

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