Misplaced Pages

Latest revision as of 20:42, 11 November 2024

This is an archive of past discussions about Democratic backsliding in the United States. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

This article reads like it could have been written by the Daily KOS or Occupy Democrats

Misplaced Pages is not even pretending to be neutral anymore. Come on guys, at least post an opposing voice or two in the article.2600:1700:EDC0:3E80:5C36:3E57:A06E:63C6 (talk) 22:40, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Not to mention the United States is not, nor has it ever been, a democracy. The United States of America started off as a confederation but, when that was seen to not work, the founders gathered to frame a new constitution. The result has persisted to this date—the U.S. is a constitutional republic. Delete this article. 97.70.111.66 (talk) 23:12, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Misplaced Pages talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 14:05, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

• Comment or view
• Article history

• ... that the Supreme Court has been cited as a vector of democratic backsliding in the United States? Source: Huq 2022
  • ALT1: ... that the United States has only been a democracy since the mid-twentieth century, and is now backsliding? Source: Jardina & Mickey 2022
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Judita Nagyová ‎

Created by Buidhe (talk). Self-nominated at 04:18, 28 May 2022 (UTC).

Hook eligibility:

• Cited:
• Interesting:

Overall: Within the spirit of the 7-day newness rule. Very well-sourced to academic literature, which is good given the controversial topic. No copyright concerns. I think we could justifiably explore some other possible hooks, such as:

• ALT2 ... that the white-ethnic identity politics of the U.S. Republican Party have been cited as a vector of democratic backsliding in the United States?
• ALT3 ... that white Americans with high levels of racial prejudice are more likely to support democratic backsliding? {{u|Sdkb}}  19:08, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
• HI Skdb, thanks for reviewing the article. However, I'm not sure about ALT2 and ALT3. For ALT2, the sources would support "cause" more than "vector". The reason why Huq identifies the Supreme Court as a vector rather than a cause if voting rights (eg) were consistently upheld on the state level than federal protections might not be necessary to prevent democratic backsliding. In terms of ALT3, the studies measure support for democratic/authoritarian norms rather than democratic backsliding per se. (t · c) buidhe 19:30, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: IMHO subjective topics be attributed to some one/ source in the sentence itself or have some system of star mark and @ end of main page DYK mention likely hood of subjectivity and suggestion to refer to related attributions in the article. I am not limiting my suggestion for this article only Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 08:24, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
  • I wouldn't call it subjective because there are objective measures of democracy (t · c) buidhe 16:35, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
• For a claim that seems bound to spark outrage, the name of the cited scholar should probably be attributed inline. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 07:24, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
• A few notes about the article: when speaking of "partisan gerrymandering of electoral districts", I think that not mentioning Maryland, New York or Illinois is an omission. We may find sources to find out whether Democrats have been gerrymandering to get unfair advantage alone or as a reaction to the Republicans' gerrymandering (which was definitely made on a larger scale), fearing an imbalance in the representation of the federal House, but Democrats aren't blameless in that respect. A mention of Rucho v. Common Cause is also in order wrt Roberts Court jurisprudence.

I also feel that, if possible, it's better to supplement the "has been cited" with more than one author. The nom has done a good job assembling sources but I think we need more of these in order to link judicial activism in general with democratic backsliding, or the Supreme Court specifically. This shouldn't be really a hard task given that criticism of the Supreme Court is on the rise. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 09:32, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

• It is not just Huq making this argument with regard to the hook fact, a similar argument is made by Kaufman & Haggard 2018 and also here and probably elsewhere. As for partisan gerrymandering, if there is any RS that covers Democratic gerrymandering as a form of backsliding it could be included but I'm not aware of any such source. (t · c) buidhe 18:10, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

V-Dem is not mainstream

There is a good bit of literature relating to V-Dem, but my reading is not that V-DEM is not exactly something that has academic consensus as a good measure of democracy—I specifically recall my professors in college excoriating what they described as flaws in the dataset. I really don't think that the V-DEM chart is due in the lead unless we're willing to put a Wikivoice agreement that V-DEM's measurements are valid for quantifying "democracy". — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 04:00, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

@Mhawk10: Then you may want to improve V-Dem Institute, as this perspective is not in that article. Regardless of the quality of the data, I think the timescale muddles the message it is trying to convey; I would focus solely on the 21st century. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 04:33, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Fair, though I'll have to get fuller access to some of the sources that are somewhat hidden, though the various attempts to quantify "democracy" generally lack interchangeability for purposes of drawing statistically valid conclusions (see here, where effect sizes massively vary depending on the chosen "democracy" proxy); the question of whether or not quantifying "democracy" on a numerical scale reflects what democracy actually is is extremely pertinent here. VDEM is better in some respects than old ways, but it's — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 05:08, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

It is mainstream and used in research. The chart is attributed so I don't think that anyone could be misled into thinking Misplaced Pages endorses it as the one and only measurement. (t · c) buidhe 05:27, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

The whole notion of quantifying something that's obviously qualitative ("extent of democracy") is suspect from the get-go. While there are many, many qualitative analyses that would likely be useful, I'm left wondering why López & Luna (2021) is cited for the fact that they argued that both democratic continuity and reversal are possible rather than the meat of the paper, which is to expose the methodological shortcomings of QCA for these sorts of things. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 14:21, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

I still believe that the timeframe is too wide compared to the scope of the article; the relevant part of the graph is barely visible as a small dip in at the far-right end of the graph. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 06:20, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

The timescale allows for noticing a rise-peak-decline pattern. Nxavar (talk) 14:26, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Undue weight to Huq (2022)

Huq (2022) appears to have been cited a whopping 1 time, but takes up more than half of the lead and takes up half of the causes section. He's also a lawyer by training and a professor of Law, not a political scientist. I don't think that this is consistent with the principle of due weight, especially since Huq is the only person being cited in the lead for the causes of democratic backsliding. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 04:18, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

The other sources say pretty much the same thing (t · c) buidhe 05:25, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

I removed the causes that Huq gives for the democratic backsliding from the lead since they do not represent consesus or even an attept by Huq to summarize existing scholarly opinion. Nxavar (talk) 12:57, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 28 June 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn by nom. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 21:17, 28 June 2022 (UTC) ~~~~

Democratic backsliding in the United States → Strength of democracy in the United States – There appear to be some scholars, most notably Weyland (2020) that seem to not endorse the view that democracy in the United States is backsliding. The move would allow for the topic to be covered more neutrally, for the topic of the article to cover changes in democratic strength that precede 2010, and to focus on the concept of "democratic strength" (which has quite a wide scholarly corpus) rather than its first derivative (which has a more narrow corpus) and would be of use in improving the article to cover the topic more coherently. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 16:59, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. Democratic strength would cover the full political history of the United States. This article covers the perceived decline in the 21st century. A better alternative is to have an RfC so that in this article sources about democratic strenght in the covered period are relevant to the topic. It seems self-evident but @Buidhe: seems to strongly disagree. Changing the title so that we can do that is succumbing to legalistic behaviour. 141.237.7.228 (talk) 19:23, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose The title "Strength of democracy in the United States" is no less politically charged. It implies a very certain understanding of American history, its present global political context, and what its future will be—Misplaced Pages is not a platform for American patriotism and propaganda (which this phrase definitely feels like). The proposed title says nothing about the actual contents of the article, and anyways there exist article out there of criticized notions; that's what "Criticism" sections are for. 209.2.234.239 (talk) 19:29, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Oppose. This proposal is an invalid move request as backdoor deletion since Democracy in the United States and Democratization of the United States are separate topics that should exist as Misplaced Pages articles but don't yet. Cited sources already amply show notability of the topic. (t · c) buidhe 20:23, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Canada Relations

Is the last part of this really valid in any way? You have a random researcher who had approximately 6 articles to her name and a random news article. So basically two somewhat unnotable opinions. I don't think this meets the standard of "objective information." Perhaps if it was at least some notable people in government. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.249.130.3 (talk) 22:55, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

"According to scholars"

It would seem that enough scholars are cited in the body of the article that this (vague) qualifier could be removed from the first sentence. Otherwise, I would suggest qualifying the statement more clearly - like "according to scholars". Any ideas? AleatoryPonderings (talk) 01:02, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Correct, that should not be there because as far as I can tell there is no disagreement in RS. (t · c) buidhe 02:02, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

As much as I hate voicing opinions on topics where I am not qualified to hold one, I am inclined to disagree. It seems to me that research into this topic is a relatively niche and that it would be premature to state unequivocally in wikivoice that democratic backsliding is indeed occurring; twelve sources is by no means a large body of literature. My instinct is that different views could probably be found among scholars using different vocabulary to describe the same basic concepts. I'm not sure how much help I can actually be here, though, since I have chosen to keep my knowledge of US politics negligible. I suppose I could ask some of the professors at my college, if you like; they might be able to refer me to some more right-leaning literature on the subject. —Compassionate727  02:50, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

It's not a left right issue though. And until/unless you produce some sources equally credible to those cited that found different results, it would be inappropriate to insert a caution based on your personal beliefs about the topic. People's comments to you can't be cited as they are not verifiable. (t · c) buidhe 03:23, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

I seem to get this response whenever I muse on US politics talk pages; I guess I should stop doing it. Yes, believe me, I'm aware that my thoughts are unactionable; you'll note that I've not suggested any changes. And no, democratic backsliding is not a left-right issue and I think it would be safe to say that many major political thinkers in the US today from both sides would agree that it is happening; nevertheless, the fact that the points raised in this particular article only implicate the Republican party is. I'm sure I can find literature discussing the same basic ideas with respect to, e.g., the Obama administration's reliance on executive orders to circumvent a gridlocked Congress. I'll do some research and get back with you. —Compassionate727  04:19, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Not that Steven Breyer is exactly an independent source here, but his 2021 book that was published by Harvard University Press seems to take an optimistic view of the way that the court brigs about American democracy. A 2020 book that focuses on Judiciaries from a comparative perspective discusses the relationship between the U.S. Supreme Court and liberalization and finds that, taking a long view, the court has cut both towards and away from liberalization at different times. Others have at times praised the Supreme Court for being at the core of American Democracy.

Most importantly for me is that the topic of backsliding pre-dates 2016, with books in 2015 and 2013 covering the topic. Others, such as Scalia, regarded the concept of democratic backsliding as a theoretical question that was of active interest to Supreme Court jurisprudence as it pertained to American fidelity to the original public meaning of the Constitution (and it's discussed in other places as well). — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 04:56, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Article never says that backsliding started in a particular year though... Any sources that don't cover democratic backsliding may not be cited here as that would be original research. (t · c) buidhe 05:29, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't see why an otherwise quality source that explicitly contradicts a claim in this article is unacceptable simply because it doesn't use the phrase "democratic backsliding." Within a given field, scholars who share a perspective will coin unique terms of art to describe what they are looking at; if you focus on the vocabulary instead of the ideas, you're going to unintentionally cage yourself. —Compassionate727  13:03, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

No, Buidhe is actually *intentionally" caging *everyone else*. I've seen this kind of nyah-nyah literalist gatekeeping on other pages, but usually by people who have more expertise on the topic and a clearer understanding of the diversity of wikipedia.

Almost every one of this editor's comments has a defensive tone, fending off challenges to the status quo of the page with "thou shalt not" statements, rather than saying something like, "that could be good for balance, please find a reliable source" (or even suggesting a source, if he/she actually has read anything to support NPOV).

From the DYK nomination, which I suppose seemed relevant to current events, so attentiveness to NPOV became lax, thereby undermining WP's credibility as a neutral source of info:

Buidhe: "there are objective measures of democracy". No, there are not. Supposed measures are based on axioms that seem logical or maybe just in vogue. Democracy is a social, political, and cultural phenomenon that is frequently conflated with the concept of "republic". It's not measurable like "did a person die?" or "how far is it from the earth to the moon?' The V-Dem section of Talk cogently challenges their self-authorization as an objective arbiter of democracy. Academic or Think Tank consensus is not the same as objectivity.

Buidhe: "if there is any RS that covers Democratic gerrymandering...". Well, yeah. How about reading the article on Elbridge Gerrymander (a VP and also a governor of Massachussetts), for whom Gerry-mandering is named?

Buidhe's lame rebuttal to Bahnfrend calling out POV in the Neutrality section: "The sources cited in a different article can't be used here..." Say what? There are countless pages that cite reliable sources that are also used for related topics. Just read a few pages on historical events. Or look at any page that has a link under a heading to a more detailed discussion of that section. Please don't concoct rules that show your own narrowmindedness. Martindo (talk) 14:21, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is about collecting information from reliable sources. In political issues there always questions of how impartial a particular source is. What I take issue here is that those that are trying to deny the democratic backsliding among the scholars - Kurt Weyland for example - are silenced. Adding the opposing view in the current state of the article would be a big contrast with the opinionated tone that the affirming view is presented. We need to remove editorialism here. Nxavar (talk) 14:39, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

A source that directly addresses democratic backsliding and says it's not happening is eligible to be cited, but one that isn't about democratic backsliding can't, it would be original research. That has nothing to do with me, it's Misplaced Pages's content policy. (t · c) buidhe 15:25, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

I suppose I partially misunderstood the comment you repeat above. It seems you are referring specifically to OR that interprets related sources as relevant. However, Democratic backsliding has its own page already, where synonyms are given: "also known as autocratization, is the decline in democratic qualities of a political regime" with additional synonyms in a footnote.

Therefore, I don't see the need for legalistic interpretation of WP rules here. Any article about "autocratization" or "erosion of democracy" (IMO, a more appropriate term because it covers countries where democracy is still evolving, like the Philippines) is relevant BY DEFINITION of the generic page on this topic.

If we want to insist on WP rules, the one about notability should be applied here: let's merge the content of this page into Democratic backsliding under the section Prevalence and Trends, which already has a link to Democratic_backsliding_by_country, a page that was designed to accommodate details. I don't see the need to devote a whole page to American exceptionalism, which appears to have been generated by recent academic pronouncements, unverifiable measurements based on a limited set of axioms, and thinly veiled panic about the current direction of SCOTUS.

Omitted measures/axioms include: one-party rule (Japan for a long time, Singapore still), political parties founded by prominent personalities with few policy statements but a strong desire to become president (Thailand and Indonesia), and suspiciously high turnouts achieved by pressuring people to vote (e.g., missing an election means you need to re-register to vote in the future) among other indicators.

The POV tag here is relevant and IMO the ideal solution would be to merge this page with either of the two more general pages about Democratic backsliding, where a wider range of editors with deeper experience can sift the content to remove the POV.

It's important to recognize that simply quoting an academic article and dubbing it a "reliable source" is not enough. Blatant POV should give one pause because it is grounds for excluding that source. For example, the sole source in the section Public Opinion is an anti-racist journal article that narrowly blames white people, failing to mention the tendency of some non-whites to be oblivious to the principle "innocent until proven guilty" (e.g., confirmation hearings for Brett Kavanaugh).

The same journal article is cited under History and Forecast to support the claim that gerrymandering is increasing. Somehow it omits the historical fact that the term was named after Elbridge Gerry, elected governor of Massachussetts in 1810 for his opposition to the Federalists. I don't see why anyone would say a citation from his page or gerrymandering is OR, given that the topic already appears here.

Further, asserting that there is consequently no reliable source about Democrats undermining democracy implies you forgot that Gerry became VP when Madison of the Democratic-Republican_Party won the presidency in 1812. This was the party that grew into the current Democratic_Party_(United_States). Martindo (talk) 11:01, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Neutrality

I see a POV tag now added; I tend to agree that I found this reads like it was written with many citations but without showing attempt to balance or be neutral. For a small example, this article featured today with a sentence about the supreme court, but that section here cites the Roberts Court actions without including easily referenced Warren Court criticisms or conservative scholarship about judicial activism and its undemocratic role at that period of history. I am only a layperson on this, but I registered surprise at this at least appearing to lack neutrality on a featured American political topic tagging a highly topical supreme court on English Misplaced Pages. ~~ Revr J (talk) 04:22, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Revr J your comment cannot be actioned unless you provide sources discussing democratic backsliding. Misplaced Pages is based on reliable sources not some editor's opinion (t · c) buidhe 05:37, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Revr J. As to whether there are reliable sources, that is not the main issue. This article is poorly written, with a lack of focus. It reads more like a 21st century political statement than an encyclopedia article. The "Background" section is far too short; it should begin with some commentary to the effect that the present US political system was established in the 18th century (when, eg, slavery was still lawful in many parts of the US), and was intended to limit democracy (eg by the use of electoral colleges as opposed to direct election) at a time when democracy was unusual worldwide (the Aziz Z. Huq assertions to which the article refers rely upon this point, without expanding upon or explaining it). The "Background" section should also comment, eg, that Gerrymandering is a very longstanding practice in the USA, that there were allegations of electoral fraud by the Kennedy campaign in 1960 (allegedly involving persons who had allegedly been involved in earlier electoral frauds), that the Watergate scandal in the 1970s concerned another threat to democracy, and that there was controversy in 2000 over Bush v. Gore. There is also the now 50-year old controversy over whether Roe v Wade should have removed from the elected legislatures of the States the power (or limited their power) to make laws outlawing or regulating abortion (an issue quite distinct from the question whether abortion should be lawful). The "Causes" section should begin with the Aziz Z. Huq assertions, and then set out the other views, in a logical order (and there must surely be a commentator asserting, somewhere, that intolerant, authoritarian, identity politics is also associated with the Democratic Party). The "History" section (which should come before the "Causes" section) assumes detailed background knowledge of US politics, and focuses on statements by commentators rather than on the facts of the events on which they are commenting. It should focus on the facts of the events, as the commentary is of secondary importance. There is no mention in the article of any of the freedom indices and what they say about the US (eg the Economist Democracy Index now rates the US as only a "flawed democracy" whereas the US-based Freedom in the World still rates the US as "free"). There is also no mention of the increasing polarisation of US politics, which is a product of attitudes on both sides of the political spectrum, and not just one of those sides. Additionally, the article as a whole refers to the alleged attitudes and prejudices of white people without acknowledging, eg, that Black Lives Matter is a political movement that relies heavily upon theories of Black Marxism and causes mayhem in the US (and elsewhere) without necessarily benefiting people of color in any way. I have no doubt that reliable sources can be found, mainly in existing Misplaced Pages articles on related topics, to support all of the content that needs to be added to ensure that this article has a NPOV. Bahnfrend (talk) 05:48, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

WP:V is policy. So no changes can be made until you provide sources directly tying any proposed content to democratic backsliding. (t · c) buidhe 05:53, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

I've already answered this point. I'm not going to repeat my answer, other than by noting, merely as a non-exhaustive example, that reliable sources are cited here for my points that both Gerrymandering and the increasing polarisation of US politics should be mentioned in this article, which, frankly, is indefensible in its present form. Bahnfrend (talk) 06:04, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

The sources cited in a different article can't be used here and are irrelevant unless they cover democratic backsliding. (t · c) buidhe 06:10, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

@Bahnfrend: Backsliding is key here. This article treats history in relative terms, i.e. if democracy is weakened or strengthened. The fact that the US has been less democratic in the past than it is today is not an argument for or against backsliding. I agree that polarization must be metioned. Nxavar (talk) 13:09, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Unless we think the democratic backsliding article needs to redefine the term not as a general descriptor of a process, but a narrower school of scholarship, I am unclear why zero of those examples would be relevant.

Are we saying only modern scholars who use the exact phrase "democratic backsliding" are relevant? The broader positioning of the topic would suggest multiple democracy rankings and many ebbs and flows in democratization would be potentially relevant.

We know editors' own views aren't what the article is for, but what we choose to cite and how the topic is positioned seem quite relevant. If we narrow the field of what is belongs here, the topic used to define the article shouldn't be positioned as generally covering the process or perceived process of the US becoming less democratic overall. Revr J (talk) 13:16, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

The article is about the United States in particular. There is scholarship that denies that democratic backsliding is happening or can even happen at all. As it stands the article does not present all views. Look at this publication - Assessing the Risk of Democratic Reversal in the United States: A Reply to Kurt Weyland - which is also used as a source here. Nxavar (talk) 13:59, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

That's a typical call for false balance. The fact that some scholars out there hold an opinion is no indication that said opinion is widely held. Weyland's referenced article primarily looks at Europe and Latin America and looks at the United States only as a target to apply lessons from those areas examined. Given the self-characterisation of the Journal, it is not even clear to what degree the publication was peer-reviewed. And one of the arguments for US resilience provided, "Moreover, its susceptibility to reinterpretation is constrained by the inertial force of judicial precedent. " can hardly be maintained anymore in good faith. It overlooks, in any case, the stacking of SCOTUS in which, in contrast to Weyland's claims, "the President's own party" very much colluded in the abrogation of checks and balances in favor of ensuring their own ideas could be promoted. Most ironic, however, given that it was published in 2020, is the notion that a major crisis in the United States was inconceivable, an assumption rendered obsolete with the pandemic within weeks. "I can find a publication which says something" is not scholarship. It's cherrypicking. --2A02:8106:258:3A00:F1ED:3DC7:A9BC:F68A (talk) 20:51, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

WP:OR in Background section

The recently added second paragraph in the Background section is argumentative original research with only a single, rather vague, secondary source. It should be removed or completely rewritten to conform with core Misplaced Pages policies. AleatoryPonderings (talk) 16:15, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

There is a cosistent attempt to compare and contrast the notions of democracy and republic. I suppose this helps some to better understand the democratic backsliding phenomenon. As it stands now, the Background section is a crude assortment of possibly relevant info. Calling it original research is a stretch. It just isn't clear how this particular info is relevant. Nxavar (talk) 16:58, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

I called the second paragraph original research because it is based mainly on quotes from primary sources dating from early in American history. These sources need context from reputable secondary sources to be used. Otherwise the reader has no way of knowing their significance or whether they are representative. AleatoryPonderings (talk) 17:46, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

first paragraph

I found the first paragraph to be a combination of unsourced OR plus UNDUE weight on one person's perspective. I cut that text and am pasting it here for improvements.

Democracy is a form of government where majority of citizens vote to rule. Free and fair elections, universal suffrage, protection of civil rights is based on the vote of the majority, and the rule of law which the majority decides the law. Robert Mickey, an associate professor who studies American political history, believes that the United States only became a proper democracy after the federal government ended the one-party, authoritarian enclaves of the Southern states, which had been characterized by majority rule "state-mandated segregation, the disenfranchisement of Blacks and many whites, and restrictions on multiparty competition with state-sanctioned violence", although Mickey believes that there were obstacles to fair, multiparty electoral competition in some states and localities until the 1980s. The Constitution has delegated States with fixed representation regardless of population in the Senate. The House of Representatives was established as a bicameral legislative body with the Senate. The United States Supreme Court role is to check the powers of the legislative and executive branch of government.

• The first two sentences need RS support
• There is 'way too much emphasis on Prof Mickey's opinions

It would be nice to use a standard citation format too. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:15, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

References

1. "Robert Mickey | U-M LSA Political Science". lsa.umich.edu. Retrieved 2022-06-28.
2. ^ Jardina & Mickey 2022, Whites’ Support for Democracy in Historical Perspective. sfn error: no target: CITEREFJardinaMickey2022 (help)

PS some related articles to study as we look to make improvements

• Democratic_republic
• Republic#United_States
• Democracy in the United States is a redirect to Politics in the United States, but....
• Republicanism_in_the_United_States is a standalone article. I'm dubious of this arrangement and wonder if the latter should merge to the former?

NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:28, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the new background section consists only of cherry-picked quotations for figures of 200 years ago talking about direct democracy. This now skews matters strongly the other way (ETA: or rather, back the same way as when this section was begun, and before the paragraph quoted above was cut). This article is important, but it really needs a background section that leads clearly into the main subject, doesn't indulge in either equivocation or partisan rhetoric, and cites relevant, appropriately recent sources. GenevieveDEon (talk) 08:50, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

blatant POV-pushing

Beyond the national level, democratic backsliding has occurred in American states under unified Republican Party control while Democratic Party-controlled and divided states have become more democratic. Grumbach also states "policies are more varied across the states as red and blue party coalitions implement increasingly distinct agendas."

Why is this stated in the lead paragraph as if it's fact when it is just Grumbach's opinion? It's also worth noting that Grumbach is a liberal Democrat. Exzachary (talk) 07:46, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Opinion stated as fact

The lead sentence was "Democratic backsliding has been ongoing in the United States since the late 2010s." This is a theory, not a fact, and I've adjusted the lead to reflect that. I see in the History that a change similar to this was promptly reverted with an admonition to take it to the Talk page. So here you go: presenting it as a statement of fact is indefensible. Kirkpete (talk) 12:24, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

who are "interest groups?" soibangla (talk) 12:58, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Non-neutrality

"Democratic backsliding is reported to have occurred in American states under unified Republican Party control, while Democratic Party-controlled and divided states have become more democratic." You can't be serious. Icantfindanunusedusernamewhyme (talk) 22:56, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

That sentence seems to me to accurately reflect the source associated with it. HiLo48 (talk) 00:53, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

I mean is it wrong? Republican states are the ones making voting rights restrictive, trying to remove the right to privacy, and mixing church and state. Yes some democratic states like Maryland do things like gerrymander, but it is republicans leading the attack on the democratic values.

However, I do have to say, a democrat is the sponsor of the anti-speech KOSA bill Melofy (talk) 16:48, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

scope

I disagree with the view of XTheBedrockX that the scope of the article should predate the 2010s. I believe "since the late 2010s" should be restored to the lead and the Recentism tag removed. What do others think? soibangla (talk) 00:09, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

@Soibangla If you truly think that this article should be limited to the 2010s onward, then the article should be renamed to something like Democratic backsliding in the United States in the 21st century, or 21st century democratic backsliding in the United States, or Democratic backsliding in the United States (2010s–present).

But if that isn't the case, then presenting the regression of democracy in the US as just a new and recent phenomenon is fundamentally inaccurate. Many professional historians who study U.S. history from 1877–1950s (ie. the end of the Reconstruction era to the beginning of the civil rights movement) would readily say as much. XTheBedrockX (talk) 00:32, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

That anti-democratic forces manifest themselves in a different ways (Jim Crow laws and legalized segregation vs. the more volatile, insurrectionist impulses of Trump and his allies) doesn't change the fact that they're both examples of backsliding. XTheBedrockX (talk) 00:39, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

are you willing to contribute content to that effect? if not, then maybe a move to Democratic backsliding in the United States (2010s–present) is the way to go. soibangla (talk) 00:48, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Perfectly willing. I may not always be present due to responsibilities outside this website, but I'm fully willing to add that context. XTheBedrockX (talk) 00:54, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

XTheBedrockX can we take down the tag now? soibangla (talk) 03:12, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

@Soibangla Not yet. The article overall still only has one section that focuses on US history before Trump. Maybe some more info for the period between 1954–2009 before it can be removed. (If I had more time, I would have added it in myself already, but regardless…) XTheBedrockX (talk) 06:44, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

XTheBedrockX, ok, so ... will you add that so can remove the tag? soibangla (talk) 02:32, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

@Soibangla Respectfully, I'm not the only editor here. The tag exists so other editors can know about it. Creating a cohesive look at authoritarian trends in the US between 1954 and 2016 takes time. XTheBedrockX (talk) 04:07, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

@XTheBedrockX and @Soibangla,

I've reorganized a bit so hopefully it's clearer which sections are referring to the 21st century and which aren't. I added a 'needs expansion' template for the 1930's, which was certainly an era of backsliding. Would adding these more precise templates in the right places (in addition to the clearer organization now) be enough to get the template removed from the top of the page? Superb Owl (talk) 08:21, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

@Superb Owl That sounds fair enough. No issues with that. XTheBedrockX (talk) 11:09, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

@Soibangla@XTheBedrockX so my hasty assumption that it would be easyish to find sources that attribute democratic backsliding (discontinuous more permanent shifts in power over time) to other periods has been challenged - absent some analysis I lean towards removing the tag Superb Owl (talk) 06:06, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@Superb Owl @Soibangla Honestly, I think the article could still include more info about (real and perceived) authoritarianism during the Bush administration. Just as an example of what I found searching "George W. Bush authoritarian":

• The Iraq Invasion at Twenty: The Iraq War and Democratic Backsliding (2023)
• The Conservative Assault on America: Cultural Politics, Education and the New Authoritarianism (2005)

The phrase Inverted totalitarianism was also coined in 2003 to describe the US government. This seems like a noteworthy thing to give more focus on, at least in my eyes. XTheBedrockX (talk) 17:01, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@XTheBedrockX, those are great finds and I've incorporated all 3 in the article - hadn't heard of inverted totalitarianism before, but plan on learning more to see if that discussion can go beyond a wikilink to the article Superb Owl (talk) 07:04, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

@XTheBedrockX and @Soibangla, I've expanded the lead to summarize other sections and wanted to see if y'all think that template is ready to come down. Also, re: the template on recentism, the V-dem chart in the lead shows why I think we're having trouble finding other examples to discuss in the 20th century (there were no other similar periods of sustained backsliding, at least according to V-dem) Superb Owl (talk) 05:52, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Did some wording changes, but otherwise yeah, the lead summary is pretty good.

Personally, I still feel like an analysis of backsliding since the Trump era is incomplete without at least looking a bit more at the period between 2000–2009. XTheBedrockX (talk) 13:42, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Awesome, I removed the 'multiple issues' template and added a 'recentism' one to replace it until we get consensus there. Just evaluated the indices which all show different dates for the start of backsliding. The 3 National-level indices cite 2010, 2010, 2016 but the State Democracy Index shows backsliding starting in red states in 2002 so I will look into that period more and see what turns up. Superb Owl (talk) 16:50, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

After reading Grumbach's latest paper where he ascribes 2010 (not 2002 as I had wondered from his chart) as the watershed year and after exploring more democracy indices in depth, I don't believe the recentism template is warranted without some sourcing to indicate it beyond what is already mentioned in the 'Origins' subsection. There are other dips but they are much narrower, shorter and/or shallower than the ones noted by many sources as starting in 2010 and 2016 Superb Owl (talk) 01:18, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

That's alright. In my own time, I'll try to see if I can add information from pre-2010s periods of time. XTheBedrockX (talk) 01:06, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Source by Yale political scientist on the role of individual states in backsliding

Interview with Milan Svolik, Professor of Political Science at Yale University: "Most people are worried about Trump, but the level at which backsliding has been happening — even before Trump — is the state level." Doug Weller talk 11:13, 12 November 2023 (UTC)