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Revision as of 22:11, 14 November 2024

RfC: Should a blackout be organized in protest of the Wikimedia Foundation's actions?

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As part of the ongoing court case Asian News International vs. Wikimedia Foundation, the WMF has received orders from the Delhi High Court to disclose personally identifying information of editors in a sealed cover letter and is considering complying.

Should the English Misplaced Pages blackout all of the site for 2-3 days in protest of this?

• Option A: Yes
• Option B: No

Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 17:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

For further information, please see WP:OPENLETTER2024, Misplaced Pages:Community response to Asian News International vs. Wikimedia Foundation, and previous Signpost coverage. Sincerely, Dilettante 18:01, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Specifics

Clarifications were asked regarding the specifics of the blackout below. It is a worldwide blackout of the Article and Article talk namespaces (including the Main Page), for 48 hours. The blackout is in protest of the Wikimedia Foundation's choice to comply with the court order and divulge the personal information of editors under a sealed cover. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:32, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

"Sealed cover" means that the court, but not the public, will have access to the personal information of the editors. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Due to the shortened timeframe we are dealing with (a four-day deadline imposed by the court order), this RfC can be closed 24 hours from now, as discussed prior at Misplaced Pages talk:2024 open letter to the Wikimedia Foundation. (Striking per WP:CONLEVEL concerns. 19:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)) Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Survey

Support (blackout)

1. Yes. I don't have anything else to add that I haven't already said elsewhere. We need to provide a strong show of force against our colleagues' safety being endangered. --Grnrchst (talk) 17:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Option A: Yes Taken in isolation, the WMF actions with regards to ANI might not seem severe. Taken as precedent, amid ongoing serious Internet safety issues, the WMF action is deeply troubling. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:34, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Yes, per above and the fact that this could attract loads of attention to our cause. E_F 17:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   Yes. A site-wide blackout is an option that should only be used in the most severe situations. This is one of those situations. The disclosure of editors' private information is an irreversible step that will severely damage our editorial independence. We must not let even the suggestion of such a disclosure stand unopposed. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   Some of the opposers have brought up valid concerns with this proposal. I am not convinced to oppose, but I am now neutral on the blackout. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

4. Yes In an age of rising fascism, threats to the flow of open knowledge are a direct attack on what we do. The sacrosanct handling of private editor information is a safeguard against authoritarianism and harassment, preventing widespread chillings effects at least, and imprisonment of good faith editors at the worst. We must alert the public that the project they love is at stake. Ocaasi 17:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
5. Yes absolutely. ResonantDis_tortion 17:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
6. Yes. Disclosing editors' personal information for performing normal editorial actions is an irrevocable step that has the potential to threaten the safety of those editors, and will only lead to an escalation of requests for such disclosure in future. Espresso Addict (talk) 17:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
7. Yes however I personally feel it should ONLY cover mainspace and talk. Userpages and project space should be left alone. If only to allow for communication, lest it ends up off-project. As that's not an option here tho. I am a EXTREMELY strong yes. I have also posted a link to this page in the discord as I believe this needs as many eyes as possible. May the 12 help us. LakesideMiners 17:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   I think that's a well-reasoned caveat, and worthy a parallel subthread to authorize those carveouts once we have a good sense of which way the community is leading on the core issue. SnowRise 17:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

8. Yes I agree a united community response is best in this case as all other ways of communication have failed.--A09|(talk) 17:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
9. Yes. The implications for the future of this project and movement are weighty, and there are non-trivial risks to the persons whose identities will be disclosed. There has been clear community will expressed over recent weeks that almost every (if not in fact every) editor who has weighed in on whether the WMF should disclose this situation has said that they are at least in principle opposed to that choice of action. Nevertheless, it appears that the WMF is determined to forge ahead rather than run the risk of losing their rights to appeal the case or lose their intermediary status in India. Well, bluntly, neither of those outcomes is to be avoided as strenously as the one the WMF would elect for here, with it's many risks to our volunteers and the project itself. And all for a case they stand a strong chance of losing in any event, given the court's amenability to receiving questionable statements from ANI as if they are established truth, even be it under a prima facie analysis. And win or lose, once other parties realize they can intimidate and cajole editors with SLAP suits, and that the WMF will hand them PII on those editors, all controversial India-related subject matter articles will become unmanageable messes and black holes that invite litigation and drive away neutral volunteer editors. Bluntly, I am mystified by the WMFs strategic reasoning on this one, and deeply concerned that if they were considering such disclosures in such circumstances, they never approached the community to get a broader survey of the movement's labourers on the advisability of such actions, before the cases became live. SnowRise 17:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
10. Yes. The court's order, if successful, will have a chilling effect on movement-wide participation, especially from editors who come from areas of the world where editing actually carries risks. See List of people imprisoned for editing Misplaced Pages. I would most support this if there were a message on the blacked-out screen saying why it was blacked out, which would prevent readers from assuming that it was because of technical issues.JuxtaposedJacob (talk) | :) | he/him | 17:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
11. Yes - This is an existential threat to the project due to the obvious chilling effect it will have on editors from India. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v 17:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
12. (edit conflict) Yes! Per above; desperate times call for desperate measures. Babysharkboss2!! 18:01, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
13. Yes I've previously opposed action but as the case has progressed, I've become ever more acutely aware of what's at risk due to the precedent this sets. To disclose this info, even if just to the court, is a gross violation of the trust many editors place in the WMF. Sincerely, Dilettante 18:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
14. Yes But I'm highly unlikely to be brave enough to use my own interface admin rights to implement it. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
15. Yes Nothing I can say better than those above! GrayStorm 18:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
16. (edit conflict) Yes The enwiki database should be locked during the blackout preventing any contributions. Morten Haan 🥐 talk • skin draft 18:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
17. Yes. The WMF has before stood up to countries whose courts pander to locals complaining about “defamation” where it’s simply reporting facts that are true, or are sourced to other reliable sources. It is appalling that they are choosing to allow three editors to face personal legal liability for simply adding/readding cited information. The site should be blacked out until the foundation reverses course or clearly explains why they think the users facing personal liability is okay in this case. And no, “we will pay your legal fees to defend yourself” is not a valid excuse to force them to do so. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 18:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
18. Yes - this is an existential threat to Misplaced Pages, a blackout is appropriate. Tazerdadog (talk) 18:13, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
19. Yes. We cannot let the WMF's action stand. owuh (talk | she/her) 18:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
20. Yes, with sadness. I certainly hoped a step like this could be avoided, but it seems it can't be. WMF's actions have even emboldened others to threaten not only legal action but physical violence. They will certainly encourage more of these SLAPP lawsuits, now that people know they can get what they want from them and intimidate editors through them. If WMF discloses to the court, "sealed cover" or otherwise, that means it's out of their hands and the court could release that information to anyone they want, any time they want. WMF should have drawn a red line from the beginning, and it's damn well time they do it right now, before the identities of the editors in question are placed at risk. If that means WMF pulls out of India, WMF needs to pull out of India. If that means India blocks Misplaced Pages, India blocks Misplaced Pages. WMF helping someone to harass editors for editing articles with well-sourced information must never happen. Seraphimblade 18:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
21. Yes I'm up for that.Selfstudier (talk) 18:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
22. Yes I think personal information should be kept that way.Dagriffpatchfan (talk) 18:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
23. Yes. Would love to replace the Mainpage with the original text of the office-suppressed article, but I guess that won't fly... Fram (talk) 18:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
24. Full support I only share my personal information with who I want/am willing to share it with. fanfanboy (block_talk) 18:36, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
25. Yes, support Fuck bullies, and to fuck with enabling them. SerialNumber54129 18:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
26. Yes. Only way to get many people to notice. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
27. Yes. Best way to raise awareness. Anonymous Octopus (talk) 18:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
28. Yes, with reluctance and disappointment. I'm pretty pro-Foundation comparatively, but I cannot countenance the disclosure apparently acquiesced to by Legal. Yall saw the violent extremist on one of the admin boards concurrent with the period when the Indian editor whose information is set to be disclosed was communicating to us fearfully at VPI, right? This editor – our colleague – may face serious legal and physical harm for essentially reverting bad COI edits. In this circumstance, I'm willing to support any measure necessary to convince Legal not to comply with the court order. Folly Mox (talk) 19:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
29. Yes I've seen a lot of funding stuff pop up on the project lately. A blackout will have a financial impact on the WMF. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
30. Yes. This threatens and will edge US child privacy laws if this sets a dark precedent. If wikimedia gives out any personal information of any users what will the courts do if said users were out of their jurisdiction. Extradition. Jail time. Fines. Don’t let them control us also what about Misplaced Pages:We are not as dumb as you think we are that says “we only are governed by California state laws and us federal law’ •Cyberwolf•talk? 19:06, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
31. Yes I`m an active user of Russian Misplaced Pages and don`t know have I right to vote here. As I understand. Today we give information about users to Indian court, tomorrow -- to putin`s regime, day after tomorrow -- to any regime, even if it makes cannibalism like Bocassa. Community has to say "we disagree with such way of Misplaced Pages`s evolution or degradation". --Ibidem (talk) 19:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

    You of course can vote after all its all editors •Cyberwolf•talk? 19:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

32. Yes The actions of the foundation puts all editors at danger, and editors in some country in serious risk of government harassment and imprisonment. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 19:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
33. Yes. We are number one in free information, and blacking ourselves out should give everyone a chance to see for themselves a world without that free information, a scenario that we are highly concerned could become permanent in the world's largest country with internet freedom. Also, it's just two to three days, we all can wait. ミラP@Miraclepine 19:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
34. Yes Agree with above comments on concerns about the precedent this sets especially as more nations slip towards authoritarianism and against free speech. Don't obey in advance. Sariel Xilo (talk) 19:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
35. Yes The moral measure of a community is how it treats its most vulnerable. While it is outside of our power, as editors, to protect our own in India, we can at least get into good trouble for them. Bowler the Carmine | talk 19:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

    Beautifully put. SnowRise 19:34, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

36. Support/yes - I don't know how we're even going to agree on "we're closed" text but I've always thought we should do more to raise awareness of the situation with those guys in prison in Saudi Arabia. It's gonna be a good couple of days for WikiWand. Also since we don't have a PR department we better have a pretty comprehensive "why we are doing this" message somewhere bc the media will want to cover and there will be inchoate screaming from the rest of the interwebs. jengod (talk) 19:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
37. Support - One of the most doable, and hopefully effective, ways to take a stand on this. Reddit clarifies why beggars CAN'T be choosers. On the other hand, Misplaced Pages clarifies why editors CAN be choosers!!! (talk) 19:32, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
38. Yes, although I would much prefer if the messaging was more against ANI than WMF's legal team. WMF are not run by idiots, they are trying to deal with a scumbag organisation seeking to at the very least turf them out of India. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 19:38, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
39. Yes. Also, wouldn't compliance violate GDPR in the EU? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk)
40. Yes, tentatively. I don't know how much impact this will have on the safety of the editors in the current situation, but I believe that if this gets enough media coverage we will set a precedent for the WMF to not let this happen again. My primary concern is the technical implementation, especially considering that an office action could take place to prevent this. Either way, we need to make our voices heard. I really don't want to set a precedent that Misplaced Pages will tolerate having our editors put at risk in this way. /home/gracen/ (yell at me here) 19:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

    Amendment: I don't fully support a total blackout (I'd rather have a banner on all pages spreading awareness of the case), but this is the only RfC calling for action so I suppose it's better than nothing. /home/gracen/ (yell at me here) 21:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

41. Yes I am from Russia and I understand very well: if we do not resist, then we will cease to be respected; if I do not resist, then I will not respect myself. We must support our colleagues and protect them from danger. --VladimirPF (talk) 19:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
42. I'm writing not for myself, but for an editor who doesn't feel safe contributing to this thread onwiki. They say the RfC should resolve with a consensus to blackout only if the WMF complies, which would in effect discourage the Foundation from complying but not directly interfere with the case. (It's not that the blacking out would be the deterrent, it would be the threat of one.) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
43. Clear Yes. We need to bring this to the public eye if it occurs, this could destroy the project. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kingsmasher678 (talk • contribs) 19:59, November 14, 2024 (UTC)
44. Yes even if no disclosure has been made yet. 3df (talk) 20:06, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
45. Yes: if the choice really is between disclosing editors' data to an oppressive regime and pulling out of the country ruled by such regime, the Foundation should do the latter. Otherwise we cannot pretend being an objective and full encyclopedia. --Deinocheirus (talk) 20:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
46. Yes This current case is a threat to the freedom of editing Misplaced Pages, and the ramifications long-term could be devastating. I understand that many editors may not consider this case to be that serious, but it could well be the start of deterring editors from editing certain pages if there are legal ramifications for doing so. A blackout would help draw critical attention to the case that has received very limited coverage by reliable sources, and could help draw support for the benefit of all editors as well as those concerned. CNC (talk) 20:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
47. Yes Fascism has to be fought at every place possible. Allowing any sort of corporation at all to stick their foot in the door leads to a huge "slippery slope"- if the WMF goes through with this- where does it end after that? most likely nowhere. Sandcat555 (talk) 20:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
48. Yes Important to send a message about the implications and consequences of this court action. Gamaliel (talk) 20:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
49. Supporting now on my own terms and per Levivich. If this is the consequence of doing business in India, than the WMF should not do business in India and Misplaced Pages should be blocked there. Let the world know—that is what you can do if you're a global encyclopedia. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
50. Support That WMF will provide counsel for the outed editors is not enough to avoid a chilling effect, not even close. We need to be as loud as possible about corporate censorship. Paradoctor (talk) 21:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
51. Yes It could be you next.--Launchballer 21:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
52. Yes. I've thought about this carefully, and I've read all of the oppose arguments and all of the discussions below. I do not believe that this action would harm the WMF's ability to deal with the court in India. It looks to me like the blackout will make it clear that this is coming from the community, and not from WMF Legal. And I reject, in this specific instance, the arguments that Misplaced Pages's role as a source of information should outweigh the reasons for the protest. I might have felt differently before the recent US election, but I think we all have to come to terms about the English-speaking world in which we live today. If we do not leverage our sway with the general public over what is happening in India, now, it won't stop there. The President-elect of the largest English-speaking nation is dedicated to retribution against his perceived critics, and has chosen someone as his Attorney General who is a slap in the face to anyone believing in respect for legal norms. It's just a matter of time before Misplaced Pages gets requests for the names of editors who worked on pages that do not present certain aspects of US government in the ways that the government would prefer. I've read what editors have explained about "under seal" and, while I am willing to believe that WMF attorneys are trying to do the right thing, it seems to me that the identities of the editors from India are now in jeopardy. We have an outing policy here, and we have compelling reasons to insist that editor anonymity be protected. Editors need to take First they came ... to heart before opposing this blackout. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

    Fully agree. While I personally think a blackout is too much too preemptively (a large banner would create public awareness and media coverage just the same), awareness needs to be brought to this case. Even if the WMF can't do anything about the Delhi high court, we need to set precedent that this is not acceptable and that we can and will leverage our power as editors to oppose censorship. /home/gracen/ (yell at me here) 21:34, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

    Adding: it is false to say that the blackout would harm Misplaced Pages's reputation. It would be received badly by a few people, received well by even more people, and just looked at with interest and learning by most people. And it's equally false to argue that we need more time. We know enough now, and hoping for some good news that will save us the effort of taking action is futile. Editors who fuss over why we should not do anything will come to regret that, when they become the targets of the next attack. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

53. Yes They wanna take it far let's go far, let's not let fascists dictate the site and compromise the safety of editors. --TylerBurden (talk) 21:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
54. Yes as this is a red line that should not be crossed and will set a chilling precedent for litigation happy corporations and undemocratic regimes to exploit, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 21:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
55. Support: 1) editors' private data must not be allowed to be used as a bargaining chip; 2) the WMF has a duty to protect the anonymity of its volunteer editors; 3) the political neutrality of Misplaced Pages must be protected; and 4) there are few other ways for the editing community to get the public's or the WMFs attention. I would be appalled if it were my data being handed to a court because I happen to have edited a particular article. Baffle☿gab 22:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
56. Yes; we need to both take the issue to the public eye and show the WMF we're serious. And this is an issue much bigger than one court case; it sets a dangerous precedent. Look at me; I'm using lots of semicolons; you should listen to my opinion. Cremastra ‹ u — c › 22:06, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
57. Yes We must do everything possible to show WMF how we feel about this. Simonm223 (talk) 22:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (blackout)

1. Oppose this is a poorly thought out expression of rage. What geographies is this in? What namespaces? (resolved. Walsh90210 (talk) 18:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)) Will the Indian court view this as aggressive contempt? Will an office action veto this? There are no answers to these questions. Walsh90210 (talk) 17:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   The answers to those questions are either baked into the proposal or the consensus making process that will unfold here, or have somewhat concrete answers. The localities to be covered are anywhere that receives en.wikipedia. The namespaces to be covered will probably end up being all forward facing content (article and article talk space), but not project space. The Indian court may very well consider this a contempt-worthy action, given their apparently deep confusion about the manner in which this project operates and the distinction between and relative roles of the WMF and the community. We must acknowledge going in that this course of action may have substantial impacts upon the classification of Misplaced Pages as an entity in India and maybe even the availability of the site in India in general (and that may be short-term or decidedly not: much of that may hinge on the Indian publics response to these events). Regardless, the support for this course of action is not ignorance or denial of those possible outcomes, but from the belief that they are, sadly, much the lesser of two evils. This is not an expression of rage, but of concern. And if the community authorizes this action and the WMF blocks it with an office action, the crisis of trust between us will intensify, but that to is a situation where a lot of us feel there is no way past but through. SnowRise 18:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

2. Oppose until we at least have a timeframe for this, else we'll need another RfC. For the record, I absolutely oppose disclosing personal information in any way that would make an editor publicly identifiable. Valereee (talk) 18:06, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   What does 2-3 days mean, @Chaotic Enby? I don't mean to nitpick, but we really do need a definite timeframe. Valereee (talk) 18:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   Seems to be some question on what namespaces, too. Valereee (talk) 18:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

3. (edit conflict × 5) Far too little information What exactly is being protested here? The court order? The WMF considering complying with the court order? The WMF working with a court to try and get it to rescind the order rather than response given in the case of Arkell vs Pressdram? The WMF not giving editors all the information they want, despite the matter being sub judice? What exactly is being proposed? What is it hoped will be achieved? For example, has a lawyer determined this wont be contempt of court? What would be the implications if it is contempt of court? What have layers stated will be the impact on the case even if it isn't contempt of court (e.g. will it hinder the WMF's position)? What will be the impact on any future legal actions in India - e.g. will it impact the WMF's ability to take action against people paid to spread disinformation on Misplaced Pages? I'm not seeing any evidence that most of these questions have been asked, let alone answered. Thryduulf (talk) 18:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   These questions and issues actually have been largely discussed at some length in the previous threads, which we should maybe link above. I will give you my best impressions of some of the core questions: the issue the blackout is meant to expressly protest is the WMF's decision to disclose PII, not the ancillary issues. The refusal of the WMF to discuss the matter while claiming it is entirely or primarily due to sub judice principles is not the issue being expressly targeted, but a number of editors have opined in related discussions that if a part of the price tag of staying in the court's good graces throghout litigation is to effectively implement a gag order preventing the WMF from communicating with the community on this matter, that alone is cause for serious complaint and maybe reason enough to refuse to elect to engage with the court in a country where the WMF is not domiciled and does not have offices. What is hoped to be achieved is to get the WMF to refuse to disclose the PII of editors who have done nothing but comport with this project's rules and do the business of encyclopedia building, reporting on the views of reliable sources. To answer your questions about consequences, yes it is very possible, even likely, that the WMF will not only face a contempt ruling if it refuses to the disclose the information, it may even have to default this case. The consequences of that default may be monetary damages against the WMF (which will very likely not be enforceable in the US due to principles of US jurisprudence on international comity which are too lengthy to get into here, but which I am happy to give a basic breakdown on, on your talk page, if you like). It is also possible-to-probable that the court may order a domain block of Misplaced Pages in part or all of India, or that Misplaced Pages may lose it "intermediary" media organization status in India, making it more liable to future suits (though, these too will probably be unenforceable if the WMF does not stipulate to the judgments. We should have no illusions about any of these consequences, and every editor should !vote according to what they think the lesser of the evils are. SnowRise 18:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

4. Oppose - if bad actors are trying to stop the free flow of information, blacking the website out is doing the job for them. Llammakey (talk) 18:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
5. Oppose - looks a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your Jimbo. ANI lawyers must be rubbing their hands with glee at this stage. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:17, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
6. Oppose. My understanding is that WMF is doing two things: (1) providing the email/IP addresses under covered seal to the court and (2) serving the summons on the editors. I also remember seeing that WMF has said that they will pay for counsel for the editors using their legal assistance fund. WMF has already explained that they are doing #1 to preserve their right to appeal and to prevent the court from ordering Misplaced Pages taken down in India. #2 is not consequential in my view: the plaintiff (ANI) could easily have asked the court to serve the editors via their talk page since they don't have contact information. I'm also opposed to framing this as a protest action against WMF. They're doing everything they can do within the bounds of the law to ensure that Misplaced Pages is not taken down in India. If we want to protest anyone, it should litigants bringing cases against Misplaced Pages editors. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   I also agree with @Thryduulf. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   And I also agree with @Levivich, @Polygnotus, and @Rhododendrites. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   I agree with everything here except the sentiment behind They're doing everything they can do within the bounds of the law to ensure that Misplaced Pages is not taken down in India. If that "everything" includes letting a corporation use the legal system to threaten editors and invite further lawsuits, then the WMF is just as culpable. Being taken down in India is preferable to creating an existential threat to Misplaced Pages's editing model and a danger to its contributors. It remains to be seen where they'll land on that, which is why this is so chaotic. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   I don't know what the WMF lawyers are thinking, but there's a possibility they've concluded that they can win this in India's Supreme Court. If I were the WMF's lawyer and had reached a similar conclusion, I'd likely advise WMF to do what they're doing here: share with the court with the assurance that the information remains sealed and pursue an appeal. They're also not letting a corporation do anything. The corporation has already sued the editors and will continue to do so notwithstanding what WMF does. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   That win, which I can tell you certainly cannot be counted on, will at a minimum require that we sacrifice the interests, well-being, and possibly even the safety of volunteers, just to test such a legal theory. At the same time, there will be substantial risk of all India-related articles will devolve into unmanageable time sinks and legal threats. That is bad cost-benefit exchange imo, and an amoral choice to put our volunteers at risk to preserve the WMF's legal options. SnowRise 18:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   Who is at risk? Their IPs and emails are going to the court under sealed cover, not to the plaintiffs. And of course nothing is certain; lawyers advise their clients based on their knowledge of the law and analysis of the likelihood of success. It appears to me that the WMF and its lawyers are acting deliberately and cautiously in this case (which is evidenced by the fact that they reached a stipulation to prvoide the info under covered seal, rather than letting the court issue a potentially worse order). voorts (talk/contributions) 18:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   The WMF's legal options are our legal options. We as a community can disagree with their moral math. But part of why they exist in the first place is precisely because we have a need for a legal entity to represent us. -- asilvering (talk) 19:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

7. Oppose. Blackouts never solve anything. 2A0E:1D47:9085:D200:6474:93BD:459C:29E7 (talk) 18:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
8. It is clear that supporters do not understand the potential consequences of this particular action, just as I don't. As such, I oppose. Izno (talk) 18:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
9. Oppose; "'I never thought leopards would eat MY face,' sobs woman who voted for the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party". It is literally said one of the first privacy policy sentences that "We are committed to only sharing your information in limited circumstances, such as to improve the Wikimedia Sites, to comply with the law, or to protect you and others." I am not willing to blackout Misplaced Pages because of Leopards Eating My Face syndrome. Kline • talk • contribs 18:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   That argument ignores key legal realities and the extended history of the project: Misplaced Pages has refused (and currently does refuse). The legal rulings of a number of countries when comporting with those rulings would irretrievably undermine the work of project and our movement's values. China, Turkey, and Russia, to name the other major global population centers whose domestic laws, regulations, policies, and court or tribunal rulings have been ignored, with blocks of the site in those countries always resulting. This is in principle no different. The WMF is not located in and does not maintain offices in India. The only question is, are the issues and actions arising out of India severe enough for us--and more importantly, the WMF--to opt instead for non-compliance there as well.The majority of the community seems to feel so. The WMF's precise position is uncertain at this juncture, but that are agreeing to at least disclose information in this instance, and the community largely objects to that. If you have a more particularized argument for why we should adopt a separate tact for India, that is one thing. But the "law is the law, period" argument clearly is not consistent with the legal reality or movement precedent. SnowRise 18:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   @Snow Rise, please stop badgering opposes. You can take these comments to the discussion section. Valereee (talk) 18:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   I would say most of my responses here have been to answer inquiries, not reject positions, but I'll abide by your recommendation all the same. SnowRise 18:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   You can answer inquiries in the discussion section, too. Please, @Snow Rise, you're badgering. Seriously. I know you really feel strongly about this, but this is badgering. Valereee (talk) 18:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   Val, I disagree with the characterization, but I've already said I will follow the recommendation. If for no other reason than to avoid further bloat in the survey section. SnowRise 18:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   And to say that the blackout wouldn't also harm the project's work because we have decided to clamour like monkeys over an issue that would easily be resolved by looking at the privacy policy? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Kline • talk • contribs 18:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

10. Oppose: Misplaced Pages is too valuable a resource and blackouts are too useless a protest.~Darth Stabro 18:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

    Wasn't the main reason SOPA fell on it's face was that a large scale blackout occured? Reddit doesn't count, it was just badly managed. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 20:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

11. Oppose. My kneejerk response is, of course, "yes, support anything that might help". But my more reasoned response is: in order to support this, I would need to be convinced that taking this action would not cause harm to the editors in question and to the ultimate success of the case. There is nothing here that convinces me of that. -- asilvering (talk) 18:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
12. Oppose per Voorts and Kline. Throttle the free flow of information to "punish" the WF for doing something it has told all editors it may? D'oh! Gog the Mild (talk) 19:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
13. Oppose per my and others' comments at the IANB thread. This RfC is wildly premature without an actual technical implementation plan, and furthermore, I don't believe there is any technical implementation would be feasible without WMF developer support. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
14. Andre🚐 19:06, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
15. Oppose: I weakly oppose this because we don't know how it might impact WMF's efforts, which while we may be critical of them, are likely still directed towards the protection of the community write large; we are largely not experts in Indian law and don't know how this may be perceived in the Indian legal system; and we don't know how this might impact the legal cause of the editors in question should they be further enmeshed in the legal proceedings. I very much agree with User:Asilvering's point above that we need to be sure it may not ultimately harm the editors or the potential success of the case. I understand, but do not agree with arguments that a blackout should be avoided due to the harm that it may cause to readers. That is the nature of collective action. Nurses do not harm patients by striking for more sustainable and just working conditions, rather they protect them in the long run. Editors "striking" protect readers by refusing to participate silently in the creation of a world where information and information users are less free. — penultimate_supper 🚀 19:16, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
16. Oppose Strikes me as premature. This might be justified in a few days, but for now, I'd like to hear again from the WMF and see greater consideration from the community of exactly what a blackout would consist of. —Ganesha811 (talk) 19:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
17. Oppose blackingout the English Misplaced Pages is a bad idea. Instead blackout only Misplaced Pages in India. Catfurball (talk) 19:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
18. Oppose I don't think not publishing information is a good response to the original issue: a government doesn't want us publishing certain information. — xaosflux 19:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
19. Opposse An overly dramatic response to the situation. Isabelle Belato 19:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
20. Oppose I don't think this is the right solution. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
21. Oppose. Like many others, I share the concern about disclosing personal information. However, making a decision in 24 hours is too rushed for almost any decision of this type. Add to this that the decision involves an extreme measure: a worldwide blackout for 2-3 days. This type of decision should not be taken lightly without proper consideration of its possible consequences. I would be more favorable if there was more time to decide and if the blackout was limited to Misplaced Pages in India. Additionally, there are concerns about the target of the protest. Should we protest against WMF, against the Delhi High Court, or against people who use legal actions to threaten free speech?

    As a side note: Given the very limited time available, it's unlikely that enough editors will respond to this RFC to be anywhere close to being representative of the editors of English Misplaced Pages, all of whom would be affected. So even if the supports win by numbers in this limited timeframe, I don't think this RFC is enforceable. Phlsph7 (talk) 19:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

22. Oppose - I don't think any of the edits to that ANI article were defamatory, but that's not really the point. This may not be a popular opinion on Misplaced Pages, but I think the notion that the WMF should not comply with court orders is ridiculous. Sorry, I believe in the rule of law, I believe in courts, I believe nobody should be above or outside the reach of the law, including myself and other editors. If a court orders a company that runs a website to turn over its IP logs, the company is going to comply, as it should. There is no reason the WMF should be an exception. I think the WMF negotiating a disclosure under seal, to the court and not to the plaintiff, was a reasonable step that the WMF took to protect its users' privacy. I can find no fault with the WMF's actions in this case.

    Some editors say: but it's India, it has repressive or undemocratic courts or government, and that's why the WMF shouldn't comply with its court orders. I agree with what the judges said about this: "If you don't like India, don't do business in India." The WMF does business in India: see Misplaced Pages in India. It fundraises in India , it gets money from India , it has an affiliate in India ... it's going to have to follow the orders of Indian courts. Can't have it both ways.

    So if the community wants to have the WMF not comply with Indian court orders, it needs to have the WMF pull out of India and cease operations there. But even if that happened, editors should realize that their IP addresses, registered email addresses, etc., are still likely going to be within the reach of Indian courts, because India is a signatory to the Hague Service Convention (and even if your country isn't, there is the letters rogatory process). The bottom line is: the websites we post stuff on are going to turn over our IP addresses etc. in response to court orders, and there is nothing we can really do about that, nor should we try to evade it, because we should be responsible for what we publish online, even if it's on Misplaced Pages. It's not just the WMF: your email provider, your ISP, they will comply with court orders, too.

    If we don't want the WMF to submit itself to the jurisdiction of certain countries, then we need to tell the WMF to cease operations (especially fundraising!) in those countries, and we need to accept that Misplaced Pages may be blocked in those countries. But if we want to be a global encyclopedia, then we have to be global citizens, and that means submitting ourselves to global jurisdictions. But let's not be unreasonable by demanding that the WMF refuse to comply with court orders in countries where it does business. Levivich (talk) 20:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

    Correct. The argument that "WMF doesn't have offices in India so it's not under India's jurisdiction" shows that editors here really don't understand how personal jurisdiction works. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

    Levivich, I am sorry, but you are massively and fundamentally confused about the principles of law you are referencing. The Hague Services Convention merely provides a route for service of documentation and requests (summons, interrogatories and such)--it's in the name; it does not in any way put evidence anymore "within the reach" of the courts of a signatory nation than they would otherwise be under the normal rules of comity of the court from which aid in collecting the evidence is being sought. In short, if you want to send a request, the Hague Services Convention will compel a court to assist you in delivering that request with proper service, but it will not compel that court to render aid in collecting that evidence. And US courts will only entertain letters rogatory from courts in other nations under extremely demanding and complicated comity analysis. For example, there is a vast array of reasons why an ANI interrogatory or order from an Indian court seeking to compel the turn-over of evidence in the present situation would be almost certain to be denied by the US court asked to compel delivery of that information. Subject matter jurisdiction, personal jurisdiction, and incompatibility with first and fourth amendment protections, primarily, but plenty of other hurdles. US courts are not in the habit of giving lower levels of protection to the personal privacy rights of US citizens with respect to foreign parties and courts than they would receive with regard to domestic parties and courts demanding that same information. Quite the very opposite: the US is not a signatory to many of the broad conventions on comity in this areas precisely because its protections are so robust, and also because many other countries are loath to enter into such compacts with the US because of certain idiosyncrasies of the US court system, such as its unusually high judgment amounts and large array of causes of action. Not only are the chances of an Indian party just being able to demand your information through a letter rogatory or an Indian court order unlikely to be successful, but in the extremely rare case that they might have a chance, even trying would typically involve immense litigation cost and protracted court battles. It would be a much more onerous affair than suing for libel under relatively friendly domestic courts in India, changing the SLAPP calculus immensely. SnowRise 20:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

    So if the community wants to have the WMF not comply with Indian court orders, it needs to have the WMF pull out of India and cease operations there. – Yes, that's the whole point. This option is preferable to letting corporations control coverage of themselves by threatening editors. There's an ethical obligation to stand against SLAPP suits targeted at people who are only guilty of reverting the unexplained removal of cited content. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

23. Weak oppose per Llammakey. Protesting a court case that threatens the freedom of information by shutting down the largest free information repository in the world seems counter-intuitive, and if anything, something ANI's lawyers would love. The Kip 20:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
24. Oppose a blackout. We have already made our position emphatically clear with the now-800-something-signature petition. This isn't going to do much to strengthen that, and regardless of whether it does or not I don't think anyone at the WMF is in doubt that we care, and intensely so. Blackouts make sense (to the extent that they ever do) when they're used to exert pressure on something where pressure might be able to change course, e.g. political things, like SOPA. We are not going to strong-arm the justice system of the most populous country in the world into doing what we want by blacking out a website they seem to be willing to ban anyway. Are we trying to get the WMF to do something? Because as much as people talk about the WMF giving over editor data doing damage to the entire editing community, the defence the WMF puts up against that is also defending the entire editing community—defending us—and publicly taking a stand against them just sows chaos and is completely counterproductive to achieving what we all want. We should not jump to treat the WMF as an opponent just because they haven't done exactly what we want. The rationale behind blacking out the site is principled, but it not going to help us, the WMF, or the court case, not to mention the irony of taking down all of our content in response to a lawsuit about a tiny piece of it. Giraffer (talk) 20:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
25. Oppose - I just don't think this is practical. We're almost certainly going to need WMF to cooperate with any attempts to blackout the site, and whether the WMF is passively or actively involved in such a blackout, it would likely negatively affect the WMF's ability to handle the legal case regardless of what it decides. This isn't practical and is likely to cause more harm than it does good. Hog Farm _Talk 20:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
26. Oppose The WMF has a lot of money. People with a lot of money have good lawyers. The WMF is doing what their lawyers want them to do, which is exactly what they should be doing. I understand that people want to do something, but an open letter to tell someone something they already know, and are actively working on, doesn't make much sense to me. And why black out Misplaced Pages? There are far far more effective strategies to ensure this backfires on ANI. Polygnotus (talk) 20:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
27. I agree with all of the concerns about the ANI case articulated among the supporters, and would support this if I felt confident it would be constructive.
    We're operating on the basis of woefully incomplete information, with no relevant legal expertise, interfering with an active case where we don't know what legal strategies are in play or how our actions might affect them. I see an attempt to force the Wikimedia Foundation's hand, but no demonstrated understanding of how this will be perceived by anyone other than the Foundation. We know well that the world does not understand the difference between the Wikimedia Foundation, Misplaced Pages, and volunteers, so how will this act be different? In the SOPA/PIPA blackout, it didn't really matter if the line between the foundation and editors was blurry; here it does. What reason is there to believe this won't be seen as an act of judicial interference? Even if not interference, why are we so confident this won't influence judicial attitudes in counterproductive ways? One judge expressed a "meh" attitude at our open letter, but a blackout could well be a different animal. What advice do we have for the Foundation's lawyers when they have to answer for it in court? In what way does it derail their plans? What advice do we have in future cases, anywhere in the world, when lawyers are asked to account for interference by the anonymous editors the foundation is tasked with defending?
    At the end of the day, I hope the WMF understands the existential threat posed by politically motivated litigation (SLAPPs, unmasking suits, judicial harassment, etc.), and understands the degree of harm cowing to strategic litigation would have on our ability to pursue our mission. These are threats that need significant investment -- not just shoring up legal strategies for cases abroad, but devoting some real brain power to contingency planning should the legal reality on the ground change in the US.
    I'm just not convinced that our interests or the interests of the defendants are served by trying to force the WMF's hand and undercutting the judgment of their lawyers. Over the years, amid all the things the WMF has done to get pushback from the community, I don't think selling out our editors in court is among them. If that faith turns out to be misplaced, count me in for a protest action. Until then, I want to let the people who have all the information, experience, and expertise do their job rather than make it harder. — Rhododendrites \\ 20:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
28. Oppose protesting the Wikimedia Foundation. I think it's absolutely ludicrous to compare SOPA/PIPA to the actions of a single trial court judge, not to mention a blackout twice as long as the SOPA/PIPA one. The SOPA/PIPA blackout was a call to action to every American reader to write to Congress to oppose these laws. What's the call to action here? An insular complaint with a foundation 99% of readers have never heard of? Maybe if coming after editors became the official policy of a government we could consider a blackout, but this is simply a misguided lower court judge issuing an order that the Foundation's lawyers have been able to negotiate to a fairly limited harm, and which they intend to appeal. At the prior centralized discussion, I was most convinced by Valereee's opinion that like in Turkey, if they appeal it high enough, WMF will win, and that will be not only a win for Misplaced Pages but for free speech in India in general. I trust that the Foundation's goals are to protect free speech and that the attorneys familiar with the Indian court system have found a strategy optimal to protect the community and Misplaced Pages. If this strategy fails and brings these editors to harm with no benefit to free speech then we should discuss opposing the Foundation, but right now we have far too limited information. Even still, I agree with Levivich above who makes the point that opposing court orders is frankly silly: editors and the Foundation are people who still exist in their societies and are bound by the rule of law. Establishing the Wikimedia Foundation as a group that doesn't play ball with court systems is shooting ourselves in the foot. Dan Leonard (talk • contribs) 20:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
29. Oppose Makes no sense. Make Wikipeda and the whole world suffer to try to pressure one judge who doesn't care about that? North8000 (talk) 21:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
30. Oppose Jclemens (talk) 21:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
31. Oppose overall blackout of entire website. Maybe splash page only. —RCraig09 (talk) 21:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
32. Oppose for now: Seems a bit premature. Maybe a banner instead? ARandomName123 (talk) 21:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
33. Oppose--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 21:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
34. Oppose I can't see how this will actually achieve anything. If it did happen, the people hurt by this would be the regular user, not the Delhi high court, or those in the position to offer the personal information to them. I think it would likely do something catastrophic to the reputation of the site. There has to be a better way to explain our displeasure of this situation. Lee Vilenski 21:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
35. Oppose per several above, particularly Hog Farm, Asilvering, and Voorts. UndercoverClassicist 21:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
36. Oppose per most above Smarkflea (talk) 21:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
37. Oppose — Fourthords | =Λ= | 22:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
38. Oppose. The case is on hold until December 16 anyway , and despite what other editors have told you, there's at least several days until the data has to be submitted to the court (7 days after the summons are successfully emailed to the Wikipedians - and we're assuming that those emails won't "bounce"...). But frankly: I’m feeling really icky about the community’s approach to this entire thing - I think we should take a step back with fresh eyes. Toxicity, casting aspersions (I've seen suggestions that WMF is throwing Wikipedians under the bus, for financial motives; I've even seen insults thrown around, e.g. "craven"). Is that all OK now? And in this oxygen-free, high-toxicity environment, we've relentlessly wound ourselves up, over the course of a month, reaching this point even after we learned that (1) ANI is cherrypicking our own discussions to try and win the case, (2) sometimes, WMF has to disclose editor data, but it’s thankfully rare, and we know they’re prepared to fully play the legal system if they can, to avoid exposing editors to risk; (3) WMF has successfully appealed the order they were facing (the one saying they had to hand over all data to ANI directly with no restrictions), (4) what’s happening instead, to protect the Wikipedians’ privacy, is something that was publicly known to be on the cards for more than a month now. And I accept that as a result, ANI can submit a petition to the court, to ask for some data. But (i) it's just "basic subscriber data", not IP addresses - probably just an email address? And (ii) WMF’s strategy here has pulled the rug from under ANI’s feet – right now, what would ANI's reason be, to ask for the data? ANI said it needed data to serve legal papers on users, and WMF found a pretty creative way to avoid that (by WMF handling the postman job itself). (5) the Wikipedians in question have known about this case for months (or would have done if they'd paid attention their emails); (6) WMF has reportedly offered to foot their legal bills and find lawyers for them, (7) WMF hasn’t come up with its legal strategy in a vacuum - it’s been consulting local human rights and free speech organizations and the Board of Trustees, (8) WMF has been told that under current Indian legal doctrine, it can’t itself defend the defamation claim (i.e. argue the Misplaced Pages content is true and the editors haven’t done anything bad), because doing so would deprive it of intermediary liability protection in India. What this potentially means is that either at least one Wikipedian has their day in court to defend their editing, or it's game over, ANI wins by default (without being challenged!). Loss of intermediary status, btw, could be NUCLEAR – that’s not just game over in this pissy little libel suit, it’s potentially game over for the community-autonomy-protecting Wikimedia model (for all the Wikimedia projects, in any language), in the world's most populous country, and in any other country that follows suit. Why? Because if WMF is easily made liable for things we do, then WMF has to vet and veto what we do - i.e. govern the projects - just like a newpaper publisher or TV network. Which it obviously can't do, and we don't want, either. End result - it decides India is too risky, and geoblocks India. Indian Powers That Be get to say WMF deserted 1.4 billion Indians of its own accord, rather than a judge having to explcitly order a website ban. Catastrophe, right? So, take a breath: What do people really think a blackout, this week, over this particular thing, would really achieve? It distracts WMF even more than we already have (and how convenient: even though the case is on hold until December 16th, the RfC backers are pushing for the RfC to close this weekend, outside of - I assume - WMF work hours. Have we somehow forgotten that these are human beings whose day job – paid less than their peers at other Internet sites, I don’t doubt - is to do the best they can for a legally-enshrined mission, “to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally”? Let’s be honest: with both WMF and individual Wikipedians being co-defendants against ANI here, who among us has spent more than 30 seconds thinking/discussing the obviously more constructive question: “is there a way we can help win the case”? Has anyone even coherently explained to you what the threat model is here, for the three Wikipedians whose exceptionally limited nonpublic "basic subscriber information (probably just an email address) will be held by a court? I mean, come ON – Google got asked for data 45000 times in India in just 6 months in 2023, and released data 70% of the time - and imagine just how much data that actually would be)? Who among us has wondered whether we can de-risk things for the Wikipedians and maybe help achieve WMF’s preferred outcome here (beating ANI!), by having an “I am Spartacus” moment? Couldn't a willing Wikipedian just say they’re one of the named accounts, then appoint a lawyer to represent them in Delhi, and then go on to fight this case from the comfort of their own kitchen table? Who could say they're not that editor (and why would that matter)? And then this case could be fought the way it damn well should (since editors, unlike WMF, won't have their hands tied behind their back - they can mount a direct defence). The world should hear it: ANI has reportedly engaged in highly unethical media practices, now wants to use the legal system to hide that. I would damn well hope someone among us is brave enough to have their day in court so that the rest of the world can hear that. And if – if – the Delhi Court itself does something bad here – e.g. needlessly releases the confidential email addresses, or reaches a ridiculous ruling on the merits, then at that point the whole world will be there to witness its misconduct. Whereas if we blackout now, what happens? The public story is then either “WMF released data to a judge that the judge will hold confidentially; Wikipedians raged (so what?)”, or “WMF caves to Wikipedians’ pressure, stupidly letting ANI win its defamation claim by default - and naturally WMF also gets punished for contempt of court, for – and here’s the really ridiculous part - going back on something it had been suggesting for a month (Oh and by the way, if you’re thinking “no big deal”, maybe get some legal advice, or realise your own ignorance; the consequences of contempt can be so much worse (including for individuals) than just Misplaced Pages being blocked in India for a while, and WMF would probably in effect lose its other cases too, just for being tarred as a bad faith actors in the system). I’m a 15+ year Wikipedian, but I’m posting from an IP, because I said something unflattering about ANI above, and I honestly don’t care if they want to sue me about it. At least posting as an IP, there’s no need for ANI to ask the Delhi High Court to order WMF to disclose my data. You want to intimidate and punish me for speaking about you, ANI? Come get me. I don’t even need WMF to spend money and time making your life difficult, like they've done for the last month. And I certainly don't think we, the community, ought to be making WMF's position even harder. How's about we stop screaming and trying to grab the helicopter controls, when we don't know how to fly, and can only (barely) see out the side windows. 81.143.194.59 (talk) 22:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
39. Oppose. This would be a combination of cutting off our nose to spite our face, and biting the hand that feeds. If you feel you have to act on this, then black out your own page, announce an editorial strike/walkoff, write an article about it for Signpost, write letters to the WMF executive director and board, or whatever. A major WMF project's userbase collectively deciding to attack WMF in a high-profile manner will have two pretty obvious effects: 1) The public press and most especially that of the neo-fascist far-right and of countries with low press freedom – i.e. the propaganda engines of forces that are inimical to WMF's goals and WP's purpose – would jump all over this as a salacious story of WP running off the rails and WMF heading for demise. 2) WMF itself would be strongly incentivized to reduce the autonomy of projects' editorial communities and impose a more top-down control struture to prevent this kind of "autoimmune attack" or "internal insurrection" from being possible again. It's one thing to raise criticisms but quite another to disrupt the entire project in a glaring public manner just to make a point. That this proposal has as much support as it does already sends a clear enough message.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Neutral (blackout)

I'm going neutral on this. Not because I don't think disclosing personal information is something WMF shouldn't do, but because I don't feel I understand well enough what the actual plan is, and I don't know what the unintended effects of this could be. For the record, I absolutely oppose disclosing personal information in any way that would make an editor publicly identifiable. Also FTR, I have zero question that those proposing/supporting this are well-intentioned. Valereee (talk) 17:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC) Moving to oppose, at least until we have a definite timeframe and namespaces. Valereee (talk) 18:06, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

1. I can't bring myself to oppose, as that would imply there isn't a need for drastic action (not to mention that more than half of the opposes have not-so-great arguments and I don't want to imply that I'm endorsing them). But I also can't support a sitewide condemnation of the WMF. It's still possible they've been on our side the whole time, in which case they literally cannot tell us so. In regard to the WMF, the best action is to make them know that we resoundingly oppose any disclosure, and we've done that. Directing the blackout at ANI and/or the Indian court would be much more effective. It would make it clear who's responsible for creating this situation, and it would create a strong disincentive for other organizations that would otherwise try to cause trouble. And to address the inevitable "but that might make them angry" and "it will give them what they want" arguments: I really don't give a damn. Protecting Misplaced Pages's independence and safety is more important than protecting its operations in India. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Don't care. The fact that WMF complied with this lawsuit and provided the requested information means editors who valued their anonymity on here (with certain exceptions, such as the need to use Checkuser for Misplaced Pages to protect itself) no longer have any guarantee that will happen. With how the Internet has been evolving over the past couple of decades or so, especially with social media exploding in popularity, being allowed some form of privacy and having a way to contribute to something I perceived to benefit all was what attracted me to start editing Misplaced Pages in the first place. There is now evidence that privilege of privacy could be taken away for anything WMF may be sued for. I'm not willing to find out what I consider to be a productive edit an entity suing WMF will consider slander, and then goodbye account privacy. I'm out. Steel1943 (talk) 19:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   Is that correct? I thought they had not yet. Innisfree987 (talk) 19:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   @Innisfree987:: Steel1943 (talk) 20:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   Thanks so much @Steel1943. This is why I asked for a more detailed summary. Why does the proposal say WMF is considering this if they’ve already done it? Innisfree987 (talk) 20:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   They have not yet done it, to my knowledge, but counsel for WMF declared to the court their intent to do so. —Compassionate727  21:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

3. I’m pretty sympathetic to this idea but would appreciate a more detailed summary of the backstory (asking folks to sift through voluminous threads for context is not gonna cut it here), and I also think 48 hours is way too long. Suggest starting with one hour. It’ll make clear enough the message that we can do it, still get the press we hope for, and leave open the door for escalating to a longer strike. Innisfree987 (talk) 19:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
4. While I'm not against the blackout (as I believe sharing personal information of Misplaced Pages users is unacceptable and the blackout would give me more time to do something else), I can't support it per Hog Farm. The proposal is pointless if it depends on WMF to actually execute it (or not shut it down; they are controlling the servers, remember?). Hey WMF, we want to protest against you, would you please help us? AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 20:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   I don't know, firstly, most of the technical approaches suggested don't require WMF to execute them (they could easily block them, for sure), but I think it's pretty unlikely they'd block a protest against themselves, and possible that they'd even help the community implement one if needed. Now, doing so would muddy the liens between the WMF and the community, which would probably be a bad legal idea. — penultimate_supper 🚀 20:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   Part of the issue is that while we know that the WMF and the wikipedia editor community are not the same, and actions by one do not equate to actions by the other, I have doubts that the relevant court system here is going to see it that clearly. There's a good chance that such asnaction by the community is going to be seen as an action by and through the WMF by a court that doesn't distinguish between the two. We should be careful not to undermine whatever legal recourse the WMF does have here, although I do strongly oppose the WMF's consideration to release personal information regarding editors. Hog Farm _Talk 21:17, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

   I was about to say, even if we ignore that issue, WMF will not. ANI read everything we post here, they even mentioned some of our discussions in the court. Knowing this, there's a 0% chance WMF will support the blackout as it will have a negative effect on their defense strategy (hopefully there's one). And most likely them doing nothing would be seen as supporting too, so IMO they will oppose the blackout. AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 21:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

5. I hate being a fence sitter but while I am sympathetic to the idea of a blackout, there are too many unknown variables out their that I don't have to make a solid choice. Was initially supporting but eh. As long as the organisation doesn't hand over editor information, a blackout would be effective but also somewhat selfish on our part. If the personal information is handed over, the site should definitely be locked down for a lot longer than 2 days, longer again if WMF doesn't notify the community. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 21:46, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
6. Unsure/Concerned. I'm currently near a weak support, but don't take it as me actually supporting something. My concern isn't with the plan, but the audience who attends the execution, mainly the Americans in the country this website and the WMF are founded upon. We could not have a more negative reputation from Americans now compared to our last blackout, something far, far more negative, and I fear that if we proceed with blacking out, the reception would lead to an even less supportive American audience who would give even less of a damn for us. We have so many attackers (read: highly motivated right-wingers/reactionaries) calling us biased, and maybe the blackout would risk us becoming even more vulnerable to American opposers. If, and help us dearly if this happens, the users are disclosed at the Delhi High Court after the blackout, we would get even more threatening legal action from American parties who are willing to side with a similar, nationalist evil to take us down. I need to be assured that our rep in this country would turn out fine if I want to proceed with support. Carlinal (talk) 21:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
7. (Almost a "weak" oppose, but realizing that my rationale wouldn't be an effective opposition.) The blackout protest would require lots of the (enwiki) project's resources and huger admin (or interactive admin or template?) management, especially if we can't use MediaWiki's software. Also, it requires responsibility for admins and, not to mention, creating tasks at the Phabricator if WMF would allow project-endorsed blackouts. After the blackout schedule passes, how else would the 'blackout' style be managed afterwards? Maybe save the coding for future use? George Ho (talk) 22:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

General discussion (blackout)

(notified Jimbo, again) 2601AC47 (talk|contribs) Isn't a IP anon 17:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

For how long? Valereee (talk) 17:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I think the agreement in the pre-RFC discussion was 2-3 days, to make it last until the disclosure deadline. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I think that was suggested there, but it needs to be specified here if that's what is on the table. Valereee (talk) 17:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

If I can pick a specific timeframe, I would say 48 hours. If it's possible to edit to add it after the RfC has started, I'm okay with doing it. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I would do it quick and specify namespaces, Snow Rise has said it would only be article and article talk. Valereee (talk) 18:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Done. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Where was/were the pre-RFC discussion(s)? I think this proposal might also should include some details defining exactly what a "blackout all of the site " would consist of. Identical to the Misplaced Pages:SOPA initiative#Summary and conclusion blackout (see also Protests against SOPA and PIPA#Wikimedia community) or something else? Skynxnex (talk) 17:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

The pre-RFC discussion can be found here. Also, the intent was to do it in the same way as in 2012, with different wording on the blackout screen. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:54, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Discussion is at Wikipedia_talk:2024_open_letter_to_the_Wikimedia_Foundation#It's_time_to_take_a_community_read_on_the_prospect_of_protest_action. Valereee (talk) 17:54, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, edit conflict. Valereee (talk) 17:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Skynexnex that it would be helpful to provide more details on what "blackout" entails. Is access to all content to be blocked, or will it be available by selecting an appropriate link on a blackout screen? isaacl (talk) 17:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't wish to take a position on this but instead of a "blackout" that would hide content perhaps an editing strike of some form would be better. Is a "blackout" the only way to accomplish that? 331dot (talk) 18:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

A strike would be much harder to pull off and be much less visible. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:05, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I think it is possible to disable all edits for 24 hours. That might be a better-targeted protest than a full blackout. Walsh90210 (talk) 18:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

331dot Organising a strike that is actually visible to outsiders is not easy, particularly sufficiently quickly to have any effect here. Another thing that has been suggested is a mass resignation of advanced permissions. Espresso Addict (talk) 18:16, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for everyone's replies. 331dot (talk) 18:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Hammersoft and Snow Rise, instead of looking like we're badgering opposers, let's put this stuff in the discussion section instead, maybe? Valereee (talk) 18:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Good suggestions; doing so here. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:16, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

@Walsh90210: To answer; All. All. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me since we're not part of the case we can't be in contempt of that court. Further, they have no jurisdiction outside of their borders. As to office action to veto? Maybe. To the overall concept; given the rapidly impending release, we don't have weeks to hash out details of this and consider all possible ramifications. I agree there are risks. There are considerably bigger risks in failing to act. --Hammersoft (talk)

Hammersoft, my worry is that ANI will argue that wikipedia and WMF are the same, for the purposes of holding us/them/whoever in contempt of court. We know there is a difference. They have much to gain by pretending there isn't one. -- asilvering (talk) 18:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

That is a very real concern, and we already can see instances in the record where ANI has done just that, and found a receptive audience in the court. We should not be under any allusions here: the WMF refusing to disclose the identities of these editors will not only be almost certain to result in a ruling of contempt, it will probably ultimately force the WMF to default the case eventually, if it continues to refuse the court's order. I still think it is by far the lesser of evils here. SnowRise 20:05, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• I'm sympathetic to the sentiment here and signed the earlier petition, but I share concerns that this is poorly thought out vis-a-vis the larger context of responding to ANI's challenge. I'm also a bit concerned that (based on my subjective recollections of editors' activity and what they state on their user pages) relatively few of our editors who live in and/or write about India extensively have participated here yet. _signed, Rosguill 18:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Consider that this could be because editors from India are extremely worried because the WMF is about to not only allow, but directly take part in, allowing three editors to be personally summoned to court with a defamation lawsuit against them personally. The definition of SLAPP. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 18:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  This is likely a major factor (I don't know if I would comment if I lived in India), but it's also late at night in India right now. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Snow Rise you say The localities to be covered are anywhere that receives en.wikipedia. The namespaces to be covered will probably end up being all forward facing content (article and article talk space), but not project space but that is NOT in the proposal. None of that is in the proposal. Not the time, not the namespaces, not the localities. Valereee (talk) 18:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

That's correct, and to be clear, if I wasn't enough in that post: these are details that are open to ongoing consensus, and which may or may not require parallel discussions, but the perspectives that have been advanced so far (and which I agree seem to make the most sense) are that article and article talk spaces should be the blacked-out namespaces. And the blackout applies to en.Misplaced Pages in its entirety as I understand the proposal: ergo anywhere that this site would normally be viewable at will be impacted. SnowRise 19:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

But then we need another RfC. Like literally people were signing this before we specified what we were proposing. Valereee (talk) 19:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't disagree, but it is what it is. Only recommendation I can make is that we start those side discussions simultaneous to the main proposal so we don't introduce further delay. SnowRise 19:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

A kneejerk "I don't know so I oppose" is immensely unhelpful and shortsighted, but there are several things that would need to be worked out:

• What is the blackout a response to? Telling the WMF not to disclose? I feel that would be unhelpful since we don't know what their plan is and for all intents and purposes they cannot tell us yet. They could be fully on our side, or on the brink of giving in; we don't know. So are we protesting ANI for the existential threat it's putting on Misplaced Pages, the Delhi High Court for entertaining it, or both?
• How long will it last? Until the case ends and/or the WMF walks away? What if the WMF does disclose—will we protest for a few days and then go back to business as usual?
• This will immediately become one of the top news stories in the English-speaking world (and possibly other places if other language editions join in). The crux of the issue needs to be communicated to the public very effectively in very few words.
• What will be blacked out? I personally agree with LakesideMiners that it should be all of mainspace and talkspace while back-end discussion spaces are left open so we can continue addressing this.
• And the elephant in the room: the WMF has veto power over much of this. Unless we're hoping they take "doesn't dictate what's on Misplaced Pages" to its logical extreme, they'll need to be at the table here.

Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I just added a clarification to most of these points. The 48 hour timeframe is to match the court order's four-day limit while having a round number – assuming this RfC runs for at least 24 hours, it will last until the last day of the court order. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:34, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

@Chaotic Enby, maybe an explanation of what "under a sealed cover" means? Sorry again for the nitpicking, but this is stuff people opining in an RfC need to know. And I'm not sure I completely understand it, myself. Even though, yes, I've kept up. Valereee (talk) 18:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

The sealed cover is pretty unimportant. The important thing is whether the WMF will allow editors who were complying with WP policies and using reliable sources to be served with a *personal* defamation lawsuit against them. Whether others ever learn the editors identities or not, this should not be condoned. If Indian courts don’t want to support free information, the WMF shouldn’t pander to them trying to silence it, even if the site gets blocked in India. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 18:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I'll try to provide a cogent but brief explanation: to submit a document or exhibit under seal means that is given to the court ex parte, by one party, with no automatic presumption that the information will be shared with all parties, which is otherwise the default for most evidence entered into the record. The court is then entitled to draw factual conclusions and legal rulings based on what it discovers therein, and if the information is conclusory to outstanding legal determination, the court will typically unseal the information and distribute it to the parties.If the court determines the information is immaterial to any legal or factual conclusion, it may instead keep the information sealed in the record. Which sounds great, but in this case, it highly, highly likely (almost certain) to find the information of the identity of the parties to be material information which has to be distributed to all parties. The identity of parties in a civil litigation action is pretty much always considered basic information which all parties are entitled to as a matter of due process and other fundamental legal rights. So the impact of the seal is negligible in this scenario. Indeed, in the most recent written order, the court already expressly anticipates and authorizes ANI to request this information, and I can think of no credible grounds on which the WMF could object, once it has released the information. SnowRise 19:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

@Voorts, this also addresses a question/reservation you raised above. SnowRise 19:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm a lawyer. I know what it means to file something under seal and I have done so myself. I imagine WMF considered all of what you wrote when they decided to sign a stipulation and that their counsel thought that, on balance, it was the best way forward in this case. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:32, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

If you are an attorney you know I am correct that the fact that this information is being delivered under seal is essentially a distinction without consequence. Presuming that the court trusts that the information supplied to it by the foundation is genuine, it is almost certain to hand the PII over to ANI. That is the entire thrust of my point. Any disclosure is effectively 'actual disclosure' in this case. That's deeply important to how the community should be viewing this situation. Now you and I both know that counsel works to achieve a client's goals, not define or unduly influence the client's priorities. And that's precisely the point. We're talking about two separate issues here. Legal strategy and the collective priorities of the movement. The WMF's fiduciaries and counsel are legally positioned to exercise legal authority on behalf of the website, but they are not, and never have been, the sole custodians or shapers of this movement's values and priorities. It is entirely appropriate, if we think the WMF is endangering the future of the project--or unnecessarily, callously, or foolishly putting our editors legal or other jeopardy--for us to speak up as loud as we need to in order to exert our influence to try to put a stop to it. The community is the engine of this project, the WMF (in this case anyway) the shield and spear. But neither group alone has, or was ever intended to, have a complete monopoly on making monumental decisions that could reshape the movement for years to come, where the potential risks are severely undermining basic project functionality and viability, and putting our volunteers in danger. SnowRise 21:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Are you saying you're an expert in Indian law? Valereee (talk) 20:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Something like this will be basically the same in all common law countries (of which India is one). —Compassionate727  21:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, beyond just the namespaces involved, I think it will be helpful to state if the blackout intends to block all access, or allow click-through access. (I suspect the latter will gain more support.) isaacl (talk) 18:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

@Thebiguglyalien, if you're referring to me saying I don't know enough as "I don't know so I oppose", I'll just call attention to the distinction. Valereee (talk) 18:36, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• If the WMF would veto this, we and they are in much bigger trouble than we are already. Such a veto would not end well, just like the previous times they tried to flex their muscles here. Fram (talk) 18:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  This. LakesideMiners 18:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Rather than blacking out all of Misplaced Pages, I think replacing just the Main Page with neutral and factual description of the issue is warranted, for a couple of days. Travellers & Tinkers (talk) 18:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  This seems more appropriate. ~Darth Stabro 18:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  That was cut originally going to be part of the RfC but was cut due to rough consensus. Simpler is better. Sincerely, Dilettante 18:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Personally I'd much more readily support the main page action, as it makes qualms I have moot. _signed, Rosguill 18:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  I think it's reasonable for you to oppose this proposal then, and make the 'main page only' proposal in a different thread or subthread. If the original proposal fails, the more limited option could then be implemented if it did receive consensus support. Personally I don't have much confidence that blacking out just the main page would accomplish much of anything. SnowRise 19:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Quick question: will it still be possible to edit the site during the blackout? My concern is that vandalism occurring just before it begins will in some sense get locked in and go infixed. BD2412 T 18:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  If no one can see it, does it matter? Valereee (talk) 18:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  If a tree falls in a forest ... Sincerely, Dilettante 19:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  I almost wrote that. Valereee (talk) 19:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  I think it absolutely matters. Imagine if the police pressed pause on responding to (your country's emergency number here) calls for even just an hour. There would be a very large backlog. Yes, they would eventually get through said backlog, but it would take them some time. Now apply the same logic to vandalism on Misplaced Pages. owuh (talk | she/her) 19:13, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  If the vandals can't keep vandalizing, we come out of the blackout with the same exact amount of vandalism that needs to be dealt with, and no one has seen it because it's been blacked out. How do we end up with a larger backlog? Valereee (talk) 19:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Sorry, it was more clear in my head. Say the site goes read-only and the last 5 changes were vandalism. People are going to try (and fail) to revert the vandalism, and then may forget about it by the time the site is no longer read-only, thus it has slipped under our radar. As a solution to this problem, we could consider only allowing extended confirmed users to make edits. owuh (talk | she/her) 19:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  When the blackout ends, recent changes will still include edits from before the blackout for the next minute or so (provide one uses the right settings). We should be able to catch everything. Sincerely, Dilettante 19:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  This is not technically possible without WMF intervention (see also the IANB thread, or the below "Technical implementation?" section). Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  That is true, I forgot about that as in my mind the feed always changes. owuh (talk | she/her) 20:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  I am still not assuaged as to an answer. Suppose there is a blackout. If I have this link open before the blackout begins, and I make a change there and click save after the blackout has begun, does that change get saved, or would I (or anyone else doing the same thing) get some kind of error message? BD2412 T 20:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  The answer to your question is "yes, it would get saved", as would any other edit that gets submitted during the blackout. Again, it is not technically possible for the community to actually disable editing without developer intervention. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• theleekycauldron, if the WMF complies with what? A sealed cover, or publicly available disclosure? Valereee (talk) 19:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Valereee: They say: "All of them. The main risk is that editors get doxxed and sued, whether or not it's 'only' privately doesn't remove the chilling effect". theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Got it, thanks! And my empathy to any editor who has to worry about that. Valereee (talk) 20:13, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  I find it very hard to believe personally that ANI will not at least learn the editors' identities once they're served with a suit, much less that the editors' identities will not become public eventually, especially if the suit proceeds. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 20:16, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• I'm going to expand on my reason for supporting here for people to consider. While I agree with the ideal of being a free information source for all, unfortunately some countries around the world have political situations (whether through democracy/the actual will of the people, or through force) that do not enable such a goal to be achieved. I second the concerns that this may be a one off rogue court that will have its ruling overturned on a successful appeal - but to me that does not matter, because in the WMF's lawyers' view to even proceed to appeal they have to put three individuals in their own personal defense of a defamation suit against them, personally. Whether the WMF holds to its current stance of paying those editors' legal fees or not is immaterial - the monetary cost of defending oneself against a lawsuit is not the only cost that has to be considered. And it is extremely likely that even if the information is given under sealed order, that their identities as defamation defendants will become public - potentially impacting their personal and professional lives as well. It shouldn't matter whether it's one editor or three editors or a thousand editors or everyone from a country - the WMF exists to protect everyone - which does not mean sacrificing three editors for some greater good.If this results in a financial penalty? Doesn't matter - WMF can pull out of India and it is virtually impossible that such a ruling will be enforced in US courts. If it results in Misplaced Pages being blocked in India? That's something for the local population and politicians to decide to rectify by reversing this court's decisions and publicly denouncing them. But putting three editors at personal risk for the "greater good" without their consent is absolutely abhorrent and should not be condoned. The WMF seems to think they are operating in the community's best interest by trying to "keep their options open". But it's time they cut their losses, pull out of India if necessary, and stop entertaining this kangaroo court's permission for a company to SLAPP editors of this site - and under no circumstance other than the editor's explicit consent to release their information to the courts in India should they allow such to be done.This is not a case where there's a valid legal claim that should be entertained. If this were an Indian court asking for the information of an editor who had posted a threat of assassination against someone, then there would not be community backlash whatsoever for the WMF choosing to comply. What this actually is, however, is the WMF acquiescing to SLAPP - which should scare every single editor here and goes against all of what Misplaced Pages stands for. The lawsuit ANI has filed against the WMF and the editors is baseless from what we know - the edits in question were cited to reliable sources (in line with our policies) and would've been rectified through normal policies if those sources changed their reporting. There is no defamation case in the US from this - and the WMF should not entertain Indian courts allowing local companies to claim there is in any way - especially when it puts three editors at great personal risk (even if that risk is not financial) with no guarantee of success. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 20:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Tryptofish, I don't think it's fair to characterize opposers as being unconcerned because it isn't them at risk, or that that's why they're opposing. Valereee (talk) 22:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Brainstorming the potential wording

A very rough draft:

Imagine a world without free knowledge

Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia anyone can edit. Over more than two decades, millions of people have helped make it into a global repository of knowledge. To protect our editors and maintain the encyclopedia's neutrality, privacy is a fundamental right accorded to all editors. As part of an ongoing court case, the Wikimedia Foundation, the organization responsible for hosting Misplaced Pages, has received orders to disclose personal information of editors. For 48/72 hours, we, the editors of the English Misplaced Pages, are blacking out the site in protest of this.

WP:SOPA is the closest precedent I'm aware of. I encourage other editors to write their own short messages and/or wordsmith mine (feel free to directly edit the quote instead of copy-pasting it every time). We can combine them and finalize the wording in 24–48 hours if the RfC is successful or looks like it will be. Sincerely, Dilettante 18:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I think we should tack on that this is being done independently from the WMF. That it's being done by we the editors, in protest of of the actions of our host. Make it more explicit. LakesideMiners 18:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

We'll also need to add some kind of "click through" to actually get to Misplaced Pages, and I think maybe consider something that the person reading it can do. (Contact WMF? I don't know, but something to think about.) I would not support anything which completely blocks access to Misplaced Pages; even the SOPA/PIPA blackout didn't do that. You could still click through and use the site afterward, and just saying "This sucks" without some kind of call to action is rather useless. Seraphimblade 18:54, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Wait, so this would include being able to get to Misplaced Pages, even with the blackout? Like, articles and article talk pages even? Valereee (talk) 18:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The SOPA/PIPA blackout was done that way. I certainly can't see why we'd do this one differently. The banner certainly got "in your face" upon visiting the site, but you could click through it and get to the site. (That said, I've no problem placing the click-through at the bottom.) Seraphimblade 19:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Do we need to specify that? Not sure it's really important enough... Valereee (talk) 19:06, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Did the SOPA blackout allow a click-through? Our own article, Protests against SOPA and PIPA#Wikimedia community, says The blocking action was purposely not complete; users could access Misplaced Pages content from the mobile interface or mirror sites, or if they disabled JavaScript or other web browser functions. Within hours of the start of the blackout, many websites posted instructions for disabling the banner, by altering URLs, using browser add-ons such as Adblock Plus or Greasemonkey, or interrupting the page from loading completely.

Which, honestly, seems like a pretty poor solution given many disruptive editors are probably pretty willing to do extra work to continue editing content while regular editors who patrol such things are less likely to intentionally work-around, in order to support the cause.

So I am still a bit (if not in the black) in the gray over what supporting this would result and I'm not keen on supporting something like this when much is vague since the details do matter. Skynxnex (talk) 19:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

It's possible I remember wrong; I'd have to dig back through, but I'm pretty sure it did. Then again, it would be pretty trivial for me to GreaseMonkey around it, so maybe I did that and forgot? In any case, I certainly know it wasn't a hard database lock, you can't GreaseMonkey your way around that. Seraphimblade 19:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

It wouldn't be useless, as the major effect of attracting worldwide media attention would still be attained, but it would be a lost opportunity. isaacl (talk) 19:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I considered linking to the Open Letter and encourage signing. Of course, asking people to create an account when we've just talked about the risks of doing so is a bit tone-deaf. Encouraging IP signing when we're talking about supporting privacy is equally poor form. Sincerely, Dilettante 19:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

How about

Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia anyone can edit. Over more than two decades, millions of people have helped make it into a global repository of knowledge. To protect our editors and maintain the encyclopedia's neutrality, privacy is a fundamental right accorded to all editors. As part of an ongoing court case, the Wikimedia Foundation, the organization responsible for hosting Misplaced Pages, has received orders to disclose personal information of editors. Though the Wikimedia Foundation provides infrastructure, they are not responsible for content and curation. Despite this, they have blocked access to a page related to the case without the community's agreement. For 48/72 hours, we, the editors of the English Misplaced Pages, are blacking out the site in protest of this the court's request for personal information and the foundation's decision to interfere with content.

This is more unwieldy and needs even more wordsmithing obviously. Sincerely, Dilettante 18:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I'd leave out discussion of blocking access to the page. I feel the primary issue is disclosing editor information, and so the messaging should remain focused on this. isaacl (talk) 19:05, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I think there's another major issue at play here as well. If this ends up setting the precedent that individuals or entities that dislike the content that wikipedia has reliably sourced about them can just sue and get a court to mandate a takedown or change of the content, then we've already lost no matter what happens with editor privacy. And I really am worried that this case is going to set the precedent for any number of entities that don't like how they are covered. Hog Farm _Talk 19:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

The messaging needs to be simple, and have an achievable goal. If trying to influence what laws are passed, then a message more like "This is what Misplaced Pages would look like if repressive governments had their way" would be more apt. But... frankly, a blackout is unlikely to have much effect with most of the governments in question. isaacl (talk) 19:38, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

A much sharper take that I don't expect to see aired, but maybe it's a good guide:

Over two decades, millions of people around the world have collaborated to make Misplaced Pages the world's largest reference work, a global repository of knowledge. That work is only made possible by a fundamental promise: That every volunteer who sacrifices their time and energy for this project will always be protected from retaliation when they speak truth to power. That they will never need to censor themselves for fear of persecution.

That promise is under threat from the Delhi High Court, which, amidst a lawsuit from Asian News International, has ordered the Wikimedia Foundation to reveal the personal information of its volunteers to the law. Disclosing those volunteers' identities would not only jeopardize their privacy and wellbeing, but compromise the ability of the entire project to fulfill its mission of spreading knowledge as widely as possible, for free, for everyone.

In protest of the court's order, the volunteers of English Misplaced Pages are blacking out the site. We strongly urge the Wikimedia Foundation, the organization that supports and hosts our project, to protect the privacy of its community members from government intrusion and guarantee their right to contribute safely.

theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:13, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

A protest of the order, not whatever WMF legal strategy is. I like that. Valereee (talk) 19:21, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

This is definitely better put. A slightly toned-down wording along those lines would be

Over two decades, millions of people around the world have collaborated to make Misplaced Pages the world's largest reference work, a global repository of knowledge. That work is only made possible by a fundamental promise: that every volunteer who sacrifices their time and energy for this project will be protected from retaliation for contributions that improve the encyclopedia.

The next two paragraphs should remain the same IMO. Sincerely, Dilettante 19:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't love that, if only because things like petty vandalism and incivility don't improve the encyclopedia, but they still shouldn't be illegal by default. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the best approach for any message is to buttress a position of protecting privacy and supporting organizations that uphold this position. The immediate achievable end goal is to gain the WMF enough public support to be bold in its actions to protect privacy. isaacl (talk) 19:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Insofar as I would support a blackout (and I am undecided), I really like this. If I could make one suggestion, I would maybe refocus the end of the second paragraph onto volunteers rather than the project? Something like "...privacy and wellbeing, but compromise the ability of all editors to feel safe from retalitation when contributing to Misplaced Pages." Giraffer (talk) 19:36, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think that in the current social environment, I want to stress to readers that censoring us affects them more than I want to try and persuade them to feel empathy for us. But maybe there's a middle ground? "... privacy and wellbeing, but compromise the ability of every volunteer to further the mission of spreading knowledge as widely as possible, for free, for everyone". theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:46, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

made that change :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I can get behind this. Perhaps we need to direct this more at ANI rather than the court though. I dislike the prospect of giving a middle finger at the court, who are doing there job (let's be good faith). Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 19:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

i would normally show you the Misplaced Pages page on the lawsuit to prove that the Delhi High Court has absolutely not been neutral towards the WMF, but the Delhi High Court forced the WMF to take that page down, so... theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:01, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I'd switch to support if the proposal were something to this effect. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I would very much support this. Focusing on the court/ANI directly rather than on the WMF might be the best way to go at it. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not really able to invest time in wordsmithing but I agree with this sentiment. The eventual wording should focus on the court's permitting of a SLAPP lawsuit to be filed and continue, and the fact they are attempting to pressure the WMF into revealing editors' personal identities to be sued personally with a SLAPP lawsuit. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 20:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

24 hour close

I'm a little concerned about a 24-hour close. Valereee (talk) 19:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree. This has gotten chaotic and needs time to settle so we can assess where we're really at. Though time is not something we have much of, so hopefully this settling takes place sooner rather than later. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

It's not ideal, I agree, but with the WMF set to take action at any time, even 24 hours runs the risk of the WMF acting before the protest action stands a chance of accomplishing its desired ends. The court's deadline is under three days away now, and there's no way WMF's counsel will wait unil the last minute, nor even much chance at that they will wait until the last day; we have to assume disclosure could happen as early as this coming morning. For that matter, they may submit to the clerk of court at just about any hour these days. SnowRise 19:16, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

This brings up the option of running the blackout after WMF acts (which they might not) owuh (talk | she/her) 19:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

That wouldn't necesarily have exactly zero value to the community, but the primary objective here is to protect the volunteers from this disclosures in the first place. SnowRise 19:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

A WP:LOCALCONSENSUS formed by three editors on a page frequented primarily by people interested in the subject has no validity, and should be ignored by a closer. I suggest that Chaotic Enby either strike that part or propose it separately below. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:21, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Done, it has been struck. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

The wording used for the 24-hour close in the proposal makes it seem significantly more authoritative than it is. In actual fact the "as discussed prior" is an agreement among ~5 editors. WP:CONLEVEL is strongly at play here, and 24 hours is definitely not enough time to gain sufficient support for a measure that would affect every visitor of this site (let alone the editors not following the ANI stuff, as CONLEVEL refers to). Giraffer (talk) 19:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

The issue is very much not a matter of firm consensus as I see it, and if there are competing notions, we should discuss (and eventually have an !vote if it becomes necessary). That said, I can tell you with a significant degree of confidence that these attroneys are not going to wait until the last minute of their >3 remaining days. Even 24 hours is uncertain to beat the clock here, and I highly recommend that anyone wanting the blackout to have a chance of accomplishing its main goal (protecting the PII of those volunteers), err on the side of caution. Anything past 36 hours and we arguably shouldn't even waste our time. SnowRise 19:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree, that isn't time to allow this to be well-advertised and well-attended. — xaosflux 19:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

At this point, we don't even know if they've already done it, they plan to do it, they're considering doing it, or they've no intent to do it. So, there's a very real chance that no matter what, this will end up being an "after the fact" protest rather than anything that can stop it, if it's going to happen. I don't think, then, that we have any need to rush. WMF almost certainly knows that we're considering doing this, and there's a very real chance we will. Maybe given that, they'll even choose to deign to give us some more information, though I wouldn't hold out hope indefinitely for that, or it might give them pause in whatever they were planning previously. But getting in a huge rush risks this being ineffective, and this is something we only get to do once. It's important to get it right. If we do this in an ineffective way, we won't help anything or anyone. Seraphimblade 19:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

+1. Valereee (talk) 19:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Struck per very valid WP:CONLEVEL concerns. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Technical implementation?

As I said in my oppose above, it seems to me that this RfC is wildly premature, given that there is no technical implementation plan. What are the actual technical steps that people who are supporting this expect to be taken? Are those technical steps even possible, much less desirable? I understand people's haste, but it doesn't seem like there's anything to !vote on at this point. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

The most straightforward approach to locally implement a blackout screen with a click-through to the content is to use Javascript. Although it can be worked around, the point would still be made, with the event covered by worldwide media. isaacl (talk) 19:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Options may greatly depend on what the desired effect will be, and how bulletproof it needs to be. Adding a large sitebanner to every page is easy, and if a dev supports us locking the database is also easy. Actually preventing all pages from being read takes extra work. — xaosflux 19:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

@Xaosflux: Do you know how the SOPA blackout was implemented? —Compassionate727  21:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I believe we just used some js hackery and a giant central notice. See meta:English_Wikipedia_anti-SOPA_blackout/Technical_FAQ#Are_there_ways_to_circumvent_the_read_blackout.3F for more on the background. There may be better ways to do this now, depending on what the requirements are. — xaosflux 21:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Along with removing 'edit' rights from everyone. — xaosflux 22:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I think the idea is to determine at this stage if people in principle support the idea (after all, if the answer to that is "No, we wouldn't want to do this at all", there's no use wasting time with any further consideration). If the answer is "yes", then we can move on to what the desired implementation would be, and whether or not that is technically feasible. Seraphimblade 19:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I would totally support something that protested the Indian courts/government ordering the turnover of personal data. Valereee (talk) 19:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Somewhat paradoxically, that is more likely to get the WMF into hot water with the court faster, while also being far less likely to achieve our aim of preventing the disclosure of the information. Anyway, the standing proposal, with its substantial number of !votes designates that we are protesting the WMF's decision to comply with the order. I mean, you could try to get another proposal off the ground, but I can't say as it feels super likely to get enough support to supplant whatever consensus result we see here. SnowRise 21:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

To be quite honest, I couldn't care less if WMF gets into "hot water" with courts it shouldn't be dealing with in the first place. Seraphimblade 21:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Would it be possible to blackout everything except ANI? Or even better, just redirect everything to there until the blackout ends (joke). I do worry that even a support on this could be prevented by the WMF. What's to say they can't just veto it? Conyo14 (talk) 19:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Hypothetically, the WMF could, yes. In practical reality, though, the WMF depends on the volunteer community to maintain the projects that pay their salaries, so they can't just ban all of us. If at the end of the day we say "We're doing this whether you like it or not", they can't so easily say "Oh no you're not". They can, in a technical sense, but the last time they tried that, it didn't end so well. Seraphimblade 19:54, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I think Fram's comment above (If the WMF would veto this, we and they are in much bigger trouble than we are already. Such a veto would not end well, just like the previous times they tried to flex their muscles here. is valid. If anyone would know, it's them. Sincerely, Dilettante 19:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

It think an unprecedented 48+ hour black out would benefit WMF even if they got some bad credit from being on the cover message, since is would mean that ANI would be subject to a fairly unbalanced court of public opinion. I don't see a veto on the bingo card for this. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 19:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Before voting on the blackout, how does enwiki's own blackout work technically? Is it a gadget, css style, or...? George Ho (talk) 20:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

There are no answers to those questions thus far. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Note from Jimbo

I am speaking here only for myself, not the board, not the WMF, not anyone else. A hastily organized blackout without a clear target or purpose strikes me as an unwise and bordering on silly thing to do, and I urge restraint. I urge those who have voted in favor of this proposal to reverse your votes for the timing being. The title of this is "Should a blackout be organized in protest of the Wikimedia Foundation's actions" - which is of course very premature as the WMF has not released anyone's data. So what's to protest?

If the title were changed (and some of the commentary seems to hint in this direction) to make this a protest of the court's order, well, I shouldn't have to explain to anyone why that's extremely unlikely to help our actions to defend the rights of the movement in court.

I am privy to the board discussions of these matters and the disconnect between what some people seem to think is going on, and what is actually going on, is stark. Let me repeat somethiing I said the other day: "All I can say right now, and this should be clear enough, is that you know my principles and ideals, and I am comfortable with the approach that the WMF legal team is taking at the present time."--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

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