Revision as of 01:11, 15 November 2024 editJohnuniq (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators86,535 edits →Request for 1RR at Fascism: grump← Previous edit | Revision as of 01:14, 15 November 2024 edit undoGhostOfDanGurney (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users11,822 edits →Request concerning Southasianhistorian8 2: ReplyTag: ReplyNext edit → | ||
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Contribution history shows they nearly-exclusively edit about Sikh topics, suppressing positive information and restoring negative information. Talk page history shows numerous NPOV warnings. At this point, we either have a ] issue or a ] issue. ―<span style="background:#368ec9;border:solid 2px;border-radius:5px"> ''''']''''' </span> 17:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC) | Contribution history shows they nearly-exclusively edit about Sikh topics, suppressing positive information and restoring negative information. Talk page history shows numerous NPOV warnings. At this point, we either have a ] issue or a ] issue. ―<span style="background:#368ec9;border:solid 2px;border-radius:5px"> ''''']''''' </span> 17:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC) | ||
:{{ping|103.251.217.66}} I disagree with your evaluation of this as only a content dispute. I am reporting conduct; specifically violations of ] (after the user made an agreement to '''never edit war''' as part of their SOCK unblock request), ], and ]. I am aware that AE does not and should never rule on content. ―<span style="background:#368ec9;border:solid 2px;border-radius:5px"> ''''']''''' </span> 01:14, 15 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | ; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | ||
Revision as of 01:14, 15 November 2024
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For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Southasianhistorian8
No action. Everyone should keep in mind that within contentious topics, you must edit carefully and constructively, refrain from disrupting the encyclopedia, and: adhere to the purposes of Misplaced Pages, comply with all applicable policies and guidelines, and follow editorial and behavioural best practice. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Southasianhistorian8
SAH appears to have little to no good faith towards me, making PAs and airing old dirty laundry in an article talk page discussion which prior to their arrival had remained focused on content(Permlink to version of talk page prior SAH posting). They take issue with my use of the phrases "sour grapes" and "cherry picked" when referring to content in my edit summaries, but then turn around and make PAs and aspersions in theirs. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 03:11, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Southasianhistorian8Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Southasianhistorian8This is a completely unnecessary escalation, which I believe to be an extension of Ghost's firm convictions that Misplaced Pages ought to amplify pro-Canadian narratives and vitiate Canada's opponents. The bizarre thing about this conflict is that I'm a Canadian citizen myself, and have been living in Canada for over 95% of my life. My stance is that Misplaced Pages should not overtly amplify/muzzle pro-Canadian or pro-Indian narratives respectively, but neutrally explain both sides' arguments.
I also suspect that the last diff was GhostofDanGurney trying to bait me into reverting what was an obviously bad edit, so he could entrap me and report me. The diffs above are the tip of the iceberg, but I believe it is demonstrably obvious that GhostofDanGurney is far, far too aggressive and juvenile for Misplaced Pages.
Statement by Srijanx22Canada–India diplomatic row has been created just today and needs improvement. The highlighted disputes should be handled on the talk page without either of the users commenting on each other. It would be better if they can get along. I don't see any need for sanctions as of yet. Srijanx22 (talk) 09:46, 26 October 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Southasianhistorian8
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by IdanST
Appeal is declined. Vanamonde93 (talk) 04:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by IdanSTI was blocked for 1 month. I was not aware of the edits on which the admin ScottishFinnishRadish based the violations leading to this block because the admin failed to inform me. However, after a couple of weeks, I recently saw a comment by the same admin stating that the edits leading to the block "were , , and , which are also clear ECR violations." I appeal on this block because I believe these were justified edits because:
In conclusion, I strongly believe these 3 edits were justified. Regardless of this appeal, I want to apologize to ScottishFinnishRadish for my behavior on my own talk page. I should not have acted that way, violating WP:NPA and being unprofessional. My belief that I was wrongly blocked, combined with the admin’s failure to specify my violations, does not excuse my behavior, and for that, I apologize. IdanST (talk) 14:14, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
Statement by ScottishFinnishRadishIncluded in that first edit that I reverted was this, which is a plain ECR violation. As for the initial edit, WP:ER says
Statement by (involved editor 1)Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by IdanSTStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by xDanielxCopied over by request. Statement by uninvolved editor CoffeeCrumbsI don't think this is even a close thing. There were more violations than listed here and it'd be an enormous stretch even to describe more than maybe one or two of them as having the character of a specific edit request. I don't see the WP:BARN argument as having any merit either because WP:ECR doesn't claim to be an exhaustive list of the contexts in which a non-ECR editor is not allowed to discuss the topic; the controlling language is all pages and articles related to the topic area, with exceptions being noted, not inclusions. Given the appeal at AN a few days ago got no support and the filer wasn't that far from seeing increased restrictions based on the appeal, I'd recommend the filer retract their appeal while it's still only a month. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 02:36, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
Statement by uninvolved editor berchanhimezThe first edit linked to, while not ideal per WP:EDITXY, is pretty clearly an edit request. The inferred request is "remove these people who are not of general rank from the list". To penalize an editor for a mere procedural issue in how they formatted their edit request seems to be heavy handed and non-constructive - as a similar example, would someone be penalized for making a well-thought out, sourced, and non-controversial edit request just because they didn't use the edit request template to make their talk page post? I hope not - so I would support giving this editor the benefit of the doubt on the first edit that they were trying to comply with the restriction and thought that pointing out a discrepancy/inaccuracy counted as an edit request. Edits 2 and 3 are clearly against the ECR, however. Edit 2 is clear engagement in discussion that did not amount to making an edit request or clarifying a reasonable edit request the person previously made in compliance with ECR (such as adding a source or offering an alternative wording upon request). Edit 3 is not permitted by exceptions in ECR and the appellant seems to be trying to rely on other policies to attempt to justify the barnstar award. The confusion is somewhat understandable, but upon thought such understanding falls apart - in any other situation where there is a conflict between two requirements of equal stature (real life law, for example), people must abide by the stricter applicable requirement. But it's unimportant to know that. What's important is that they've shown through their edits that they're unable to contribute constructively in this area - both through inability to wait until they're extended-confirmed before contributing, as well as through their incivility, accusations of propaganda, and other edits whether they were edit requests or not. There's a clear solution here - an indefinite topic ban that cannot be appealed until the editor is extended confirmed and such appeal will almost certainly fail unless they edit in other areas of the encyclopedia constructively first. This gives the user a clear cut rule - do not edit related to the Israel-Palestine conflict anywhere on Misplaced Pages - at all, while also giving them the opportunity to gain experience and show the community that, eventually, (at a minimum) after they're extended confirmed, they may be given a second chance to return to this topic area. I'm unsure if there's precedent for basically "increasing" a sanction at an AE appeal, but if the user is willing to agree to an enforced topic ban and abide by it, I would support removing the block and allowing them a chance to show they will abide by the topic ban rather than forcing them to wait a month (or the time remaining) then begin doing that. I support a topic ban regardless - otherwise the user will likely shoot themselves in the foot trying to edit in the topic area after their block expires. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 03:06, 28 October 2024 (UTC) Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)Result of the appeal by IdanST
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Mhorg
Mhorg is indefinitely topic banned from Eastern Europe, broadly construed. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:52, 3 November 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Mhorg
Tendentious editing, edit warring. Do we need more diffs? In discussion, appeals using their personal opinion Talk:Disinformation in the Russian invasion of Ukraine#c-Mhorg-20240923111300-Genabab-20240919094400 , uses a strawman and makes assumption about opponents behaviors Talk:Disinformation in the Russian invasion of Ukraine#c-Mhorg-20241028083600-Manyareasexpert-20241028071000 . Ignores previous arguments and demands an approach contrary to WP:CONS Talk:Disinformation in the Russian invasion of Ukraine#c-Mhorg-20241028123700-Manyareasexpert-20241028104100 .
Special:PermanentLink/1253900233#Notice of Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard discussion
Discussion concerning MhorgStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Mhorg1&2 are are my attempt to recover content from other users, as the user wanted to remove any source stating that the Azov had not depoliticised. Here they removed the statement of Efraim Zuroff (in april 2022) with the motivation: "Academic researchers argue that the regiment has changed since its integration into the National Guard, tempering far-right elements and distancing from the movement". Consider that there is a large section on Azov Brigade itself where this debate is described, which is still open. The user decided, despite all sources to the contrary, that the debate is over. 3 is the statement of Merezhko, deputy for the Servant of the People and Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe. Accusations made by members of the government against the Ukrainian extreme right. I think it is important enough to be mentioned in "Far-right politics in Ukraine". 4 The user first in June 2024 reversed the meaning of the stable article "Commemoration of Stepan Bandera" by inserting his text in the first line of the lede. I added, months later, some context: chronologically the condemnation of the Ukrainian Jewish groups against the rehabilitation of OUN and UPA and the scandal of Bandera's words quoted by the Ukrainian parliament (a scandal in Israel and a diplomatic confrontation with the Polish leadership). Both reported by Haaretz. 6, Bumaga is a well-known Russian anti-government journal. The user has already had several problems with other users and also administrators. One of the most recent was when they removed Le Monde with the reason "No reliable source", triggering Ymblanter's response: "next time you call Le Monde an unreliable source I will open a topic ban request". The user opens a discussion where they justifies themselves. Ymblanter rightly replies that they should have put that justification as edit summary and that "no reliable sources" was not acceptable, confirming the issue. Now the user is saying that I am falsely accusing them. Since a Topic Ban is being considered in the field that most interests me and where I have spent almost 10 years here, may I ask that my case not be assessed by just two administrators and that there be a broader discussion? Statement by TylerBurdenI don't think there is a more clear example of a WP:TENDENTIOUS editor in this topic area than Mhorg, unfortunately despite numerous warnings and even official administrator action, parroting Russian propaganda and talking points is the most important thing to this editor, and they are more than willing to break policy to do so, mostly by misrepresenting sources and edit warring. This has been going on for years, so at this point an eastern Europe topic ban is the only sensible solution to prevent them from further damaging the project. --TylerBurden (talk) 12:53, 29 October 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Mhorg
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Nableezy
Rough consensus among uninvolved administrators that the Arbitraiton Comittee is better able to determine what, if anything, the problems are and any appropriate sanction. Will be referring it to them at WP:ARCA (Further discussion can be found here). Barkeep49 (talk) 19:07, 7 November 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Nableezy
I'm asking for civility. An RFC remaining at the status quo is not gaming the system. That is standard procedure. Accusing me of tendentious and disruptive editing is not appropriate. I am simply making normal edits and am not alone. It's an open dispute and I followed the advice of SFR in opening an RFC. That Snowstormfigorion happened to revert beforehand is not gaming the system, it's a classic "wrong version," and wiki veterans should know better. I don't see that I should simply put up with being accused falsely and aspersions cast in bad faith. See the discussion at the 1948 war talk page. See the history of the 1948 war article. The material was removed by several editors and restored by several editors. There's currently no consensus on what to do. It was suggested by SFR that I start an RFC which I did so. Nableezy accuses me of tendentious editing, gaming the system, and disruptive editing. I left a message on his talk page and on SFR's talk page and he did not clarify or modify his aspersions. Andre🚐 21:25, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning NableezyStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by NableezyIt *is* tendentious to make editors go through the same argument over and over again. We had a recent RFC on the exact same topic on the parent article. Anybody is justified in discussing and attempting to find a new consensus, but when we have already had that argument and there was a consensus established at the parent article demanding that the material be retained for 30 days because an RFC was opened *is* tendentious and it *is* gaming. That isnt an aspersion. If there is something about my reverting Andre on my own talk page or responding to his admin-shopped complaint at another talk page I need to respond to here lmk. But citing evidence for an accusation is the opposite of "casting aspersions". nableezy - 21:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
@the admins, if you're going to be looking at the entire history, Snowstormfigorion is even reverting tags about a false statement in the article. That is their now third revert, two of them inserting false statements that fail verification. nableezy - 15:20, 30 October 2024 (UTC) Statement by ManyAreasExpertSpecial:GoToComment/c-Nableezy-20240311163900-Coretheapple-20240311163900 Thanks for demonstrating your inability to respond to math. Edit: Special:PermanentLink/1204764975#Notice that you are now subject to an arbitration enforcement sanction so the editor was still under the topicban at that time? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:40, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
Statement by HuldraA' list for diffs are not chronological:
All the following diffs are to N's talk-page:
Is it ok to post on a talk-page after been repeatedly asked not to? Huldra (talk) 22:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
Statement by BilledMammalJust noting that Nableezy doesn't interpret "So kindly take your leave from this page" as a ban from the talk page; instead, they appear to interpret it merely a request. See this clarification that they made when they used the phrase previously.
Statement by TarnishedPathWP:ONUS would suggest that once material is removed from an article and while discussion is occurring on the article's talk page that the content stay removed until such time as there is consensus unless there is some other policy reason for the material to be re-inserted. Per the policy, "he responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content". TarnishedPath 01:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC) Statement by arkonClearly the important thing here is a nebulous personal talk page ban that was or wasn't. Should have already been a case via ARCA, but I'm apparently in the minority. Arkon (talk) 01:38, 29 October 2024 (UTC) Statement by SelfstudierThe disputed sentence covers two separate issues 1) The total number of Jews that immigrated to Israel in the three years following the war and 2) Included within that, those Jews immigrating from the Arab world. The currently running RFC addresses only the second issue so the QUO argument should only be about that part, nevertheless, despite it being made absolutely clear on the article talk page that the material covered in 1) fails verification, Snowstormfigorion has again made another revert restoring this material claiming that it is subject of the RFC, which it isn't. Selfstudier (talk) 13:07, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
Statement by AlaexisConsidering that we've learned recently about what appears to be a large-scale and well-organised effort to influence the Misplaced Pages coverage of the conflict (link, please see the part about the Discord channel used to coordinate Misplaced Pages editing), I think that it might be worthwhile to review the decisions taken recently in this topic area, including the closures of RfCs like this one. Alaexis¿question? 22:26, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000I have edited that article only twice in more than two years. Any suggestion that I edit-war there is false. Moreover, I'm happy to justify either of those edits. Only a fraction of reverts are to-and-fro between regular editors. A large number are reverts of new or fly-by-night editors who don't know the subject and come along to insert bad text in violation of NPOV or RS or the facts. This type of revert is a good edit and without it keeping the article in an acceptable state would be impossible. An inevitable result of hitting the most experienced editors with 0RR would be deterioration of article quality. Zero 00:18, 30 October 2024 (UTC) @Valereee: You ask a fair question, and if you study my record you'll see that I do that sort of thing hardly ever. If I'd thought for more than a few seconds, I would have decided against it. As far as I remember, my motive at that moment was that there was a recent RfC about exactly the same question and there was no talk page consensus to overturn it. So I felt there was already a consensus until someone established a different consensus, which is what I wrote in my edit summary. I also knew that the sentence I removed is factually incorrect, as Nableezy had pointed out on the talk page and I had checked. Zero 14:00, 30 October 2024 (UTC) If there is a consensus to change the status quo, and especially if there is an RfC to change the status quo, then reverting back to the status quo is obviously more disruptive than implementing the consensus. It negates the very purpose of consensus. So BilledMammal's latest idea doesn't pass scrutiny. Zero 14:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC) Statement by ABHammadI'd like to point out that the editors mentioned in this complaint each have their own record, which could suggest the need for tailored sanctions. For instance, only three months ago, User:Makeandtoss, who took part in this edit war, was given their 'final warning' "for behavior that falls below the required level required when editing in contentious topics", with Seraphimblade writing that it should be given "with very clear understanding that any more problems will almost certainly lead to a topic ban". To me, it's obvious now that just giving more warnings won't make a difference. ABHammad (talk) 15:42, 30 October 2024 (UTC) Statement by Makeandtoss@Valereee: Thank you for the ping, I had been seriously ill. As well-articulated by @Vanamonde93:, there are different aspects to this dispute. Removing material that had no consensus for its inclusion or keeping conforms with WP:ONUS, while constantly re-adding that contested material is in direct violation of it. WP:DON'T PRESERVE is actually the relevant guideline, rather than WP:PRESERVE, since the former's scope includes contentious material such as this one. WP:STATUSQUO is an essay. RFCs are a way of reaching broader consensus so they cannot be considered to have a freeze effect on contentious material that has no consensus, and this RFC was anyway belatedly opened at the end after the removals. Having avoided making further reverts myself and engaged extensively in the talk page and encouraged those re-adding the contentious material to seek proper dispute resolution, conformity with all the relevant guidelines and policies was maintained. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:57, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning Nableezy
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Archives908
Archives908 is warned that further edit-warring in this topic may be grounds for stringent sanction. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:55, 5 November 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Archives908
Archives908 has engaged in slow edit warring against multiple editors in National Assembly (Artsakh), resorting to POV-pushing (repeatedly adding controversial information about a dissolved entity still existing using questionable sources) before consensus is reached. They were warned that this behaviour was unconstructive and were asked to revert their edits while the discussion is ongoing but disregarded the warning.
Discussion concerning Archives908Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Archives908User Parishan made one edit, which was reverted one time by myself on National Assembly (Artsakh). We have since been civilly discussing the edit on the talk page according to WP:BRD guidelines in an attempt to reach WP:CON. Neither of us have engaged in an WP:EW or violated either WP:3RR or even WP:2RR. I am utterly confused by this report. Regards, Archives908 (talk) 13:17, 29 October 2024 (UTC) Furthermore, in 2021, I was a relatively unexperienced editor and was unaware about the policies regarding reverting edits made by confirmed sockpuppets. I apologized, educated myself of those policies, and never violated those rules since. This old report, from almost half a decade ago, is in my opinion irrelevant to this topic as I have never "mass reverted edits" made by a sockpuppet ever since. Archives908 (talk) 13:31, 29 October 2024 (UTC) I would like to provide additional clarification. Parishan made this edit on October 28. I restored the last stable version (only once) because Parishan's edit was factually incorrect. In Parishan's WP:ES, they used the word unlikely, implying uncertainty in their own edit. After the revert, we proceeded to have a very civil discussion regarding the status of the National Assembly of Artsakh. Parishan, at first, asserted that the body is defunct. Then on October 29, Parishan stated that the body does engage in "local media outreach". Yet, sources I found showed that the National Assembly has been actively operating in Armenia. From releasing official documents, organizing rallies, press briefings and protests, and meeting with leaders of the 2024 Armenian protests. It's significantly more then just "local media outreach". In any case, we were trying to reach a WP:CON. There was no WP:EW. As you see here () I even recommended a fair alternative by suggesting we create a new article which would be centered around the government-in-exile in Yerevan, while the current article could be focused on the former legislative body in Stepanakert. This would have been an ideal solution for both of our concerns, but my proposal was ignored. I abided by WP:BRD ethos. Parishan's "B"old edit was "R"everted, and then we both "D"iscussed. Parishan did ask me to revert my edit, but in all honesty, I skimmed the users message very fast that day and totally read over their request (by mistake). I should have taken time to read their response more carefully, and for that I do apologize. However, I acted fully in accordance with WP:BRD ethos and did not violate WP:2RR. I ask the Admins for leniency. I will certainly work on reading responses more diligently in the future. Regards, Archives908 (talk) 21:16, 30 October 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Archives908
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Bohemian Baltimore
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Bohemian Baltimore
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Morbidthoughts (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 05:50, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Bohemian Baltimore (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Editing of Biographies of Living Persons
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 19:52, 25 October 2024 Adding self-identification category to Grant Fuhr without direct support from article and its cited sources. Reverted by me.
- 18:35, 25 October 2024 Replacing Taino descent category with self-identification category. Was reverted by User:Lewisguile noting same issue.
- 18:34, 25 October 2024 Replacing Taino descent category with self-identification category. Reverted by Lewisguile noting same issue.
- 16:43, 22 October 2024 Replacing Navajo People category with self-identification Indigenous Mexican category. Reverted by me because neither article text nor its cited sources verify self-identification.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 07:49, 30 May 2024 (see the system log linked to above).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I first learned about Bohemian Baltimore's disputed edits that introduce a self-identification qualifier to biographies of living people without explicit support from RSes on a May BLP Noticeboard discussion about Patricia Norby. Consensus was against these edits. As far as I can tell, Bohemian Baltimore has made hundreds of this type of edits since 2023, mostly by use of categories. The categories are very contentious themselves based on a prior CfD discussion. I have reverted many of these edits and previously warned Bohemian Baltimore in August about this.
I believe Bohemian Baltimore should be barred from BLPs involving Native/Indigenous topics.
- Despite YuchiTown's attempt to rationalise the self-identification label, I'd like the reviewing administrators to consider what also happened when the categories were linked to the individual biographies as raised in the CfD discussion. It is not just the word self-identify that is added. When people click on the category page, they can see variations of the following summary about the listed people: "This category page lists notable citizens of the United States who claim to have _____ ancestry but who have no proof of this heritage. In some cases they make the claim despite having been proven to have no ______ heritage at all." with a later Pretendian link. BB created these categories and their corresponding summaries and then linked people to these non-neutral contentions without direct unchained support from RSes. Think of the impact these unsourced gatekeeping assertions have on people. Morbidthoughts (talk) 00:16, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49,@Seraphimblade, @ScottishFinnishRadish Similar to Hemiauchenia's example, I thought it was weird that BB brought up a lack of literacy and racism in a discussion about whether a third-party report of a DNA test supported a self-identification of descent category. BB questioned another user's reading comprehension in the Norby talk page discussion when that person objected about self-identification on OR grounds. Morbidthoughts (talk) 17:17, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Bohemian Baltimore
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Bohemian Baltimore
I do not appreciate this transparent attempt to harass me and censor my contributions to Misplaced Pages. Each of these individuals was either adopted or self-identifies as Taíno. None of these people have tribal citizenship; the source of their Indigenous identity is very literally through their own self-identification rather than through any tribal citizenship. As for the ArbCom discussion, where is this "consensus"? Where is this stated and by whom? What binding precedent was set or rules established for editing? Please, enlighten me. What exactly am I missing here? It is very disappointing and alarming that this user is deploying strong-arm tactics to permanently suppress the contributions of Native and allied editors. This is not the first time this editor has defamed or harassed me, based on his own idiosyncratic and self-declared definition of self-identification. There are many ways to handle disputes. Trying to get me banned from editing is outrageous and controlling and it undermines Misplaced Pages's diversity. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 10:02, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
- @Raladic Please stick to the topic. I regard dragging these long dead and irrelevant debates into this conversation as a smear. I made an attempt to improve visibility for gay, lesbian, transgender, and bisexual people; to address erasure and invisibility of LGBT people, as a proud member of the LGBT community. I will not apologize for being queer. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 09:38, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
- @ScottishFinnishRadish What knowledge do you have of tribal citizenship? Is this a topic you have attempted to research and educate yourself on before declaring that I should be banned? Tribal citizenship is very much verifiable and defining. The fact that the Taino have no tribal citizenship is not "original research". It's simply a fact. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 17:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
- @Valereee American Indian tribes under law are sovereign nations with citizens. There are neo-Taíno revivalist organizations that promote Taíno identity and who promote reviving a distinct Taíno culture, which was assimilated into the Spanish-speaking Puerto Rican culture centuries ago. However, these non-profit organizations are not tribes. Typically, they are registered as 501c3s. They have no citizens. They have no sovereignty. The basis of their identity is purely through their own self-identification, rather than any legal status. Whether or not a group should be recognized as a tribe is an opinion. Not that my opinion really matters, but I know of several groups of American Indian descendants who have no recognition as a tribe, but who I think should be recognized. The Taíno revivalists lack of any sovereign nation is a fact, not an opinion. A Puerto Rican who self-identifies as Taíno is simply a US citizen. Whereas, for example, an enrolled Cherokee Nation member is both a citizen of the US and a citizen of the Cherokee Nation. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:08, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Newyorkbrad In the United States, American Indian tribes are defined as "domestic dependent, sovereign nations" under law with government-to-government relationships with the US government. Members of tribes are citizens of sovereign nations. Being Native American is a matter of citizenship and sovereignty, not merely a question of race, color, ethnicity, or ancestry. There are no Taíno tribes in the United States. Due to genocide, disease, assimilation and other factors, the Taíno assimilated into the larger Puerto Rican population. The Taíno language is extinct. The Taíno as a culturally distinct people have not existed for centuries. In recent years, some Puerto Ricans have begun to self-identify as Taíno based on their DNA heritage. These neo-Taínos self-identify as Indigenous due to centuries old Indigenous ancestry. No Taíno group is recognized as a sovereign nation. That is to say, neo-Taíno identity is inherently a question of self-identification rather than citizenship in a sovereign nation. Puerto Ricans who self-identify as neo-Taíno are US citizens and they have no additional tribal citizenship. The term "self-identification", while wrongly perceived by some uninformed white editors as a pejorative term, is actually widely used by Indigenous peoples. The term is used by the Department of the Interior, the United Nations, the Organization of American States, and many other bodies. The fact that neo-Taíno revivalists have no recognition as sovereign nations is just that, a fact. The question of whether a neo-Taíno group should be recognized is a separate matter. That's an opinion. Their lack of sovereignty is not an opinion. It is a fact. Right now, historical Taíno people of Puerto Rico who lived during colonial and pre-colonial times are in the category Category:Taíno people from Puerto Rico. Whereas, neo-Taíno revivalists were listed under Category:Puerto Rican people who self-identify as being of Taíno descent. That category was emptied and nominated for deletion. The people who were in the category are now under Category:Puerto Rican people of Taíno descent. The historic Taíno people are clearly distinct from neo-Taíno revivalists who invoke DNA heritage, and for navigational purposes there should be separate categories for these separate groups of people. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 04:55, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Raladic I really despise having to re-hash ancient and irrelevant drama, but some of the categories I created were actually kept. So actually, it was a useful and productive conversation about the visibility of queer people within the ace community, and about the definition of bisexuality (and the "two or more genders" definition I used is actually widespread and normative, despite Misplaced Pages's fossilized conservatism on these matters). I do not like homophobia. I do not like being subject to homophobic attacks. These old conversations have been irrelevantly thrown in my face, on-Wiki and off-Wiki, by multiple people. Your intent doesn't really make a difference. To assume good faith, I am sure you and Mason think of yourselves as harmlessly correcting mistakes. Whereas, I view it as objectively homophobic as it creates a hostile environment for queer editors. I do not feel welcomed or respected as a queer person on Misplaced Pages. I feel defamed and excluded. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:18, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Theleekycauldron Unbelievable. Name one time there has been a "behavioral problem" in regards to Jewish topics. I'm a queer Jew and I have contributed greatly to queer, Jewish, and queer Jewish topics on Misplaced Pages. This discussion has clearly gotten out of hand. The proposal was to topic ban me from Indigenous self-identification. Now, I am being told I should basically be banned from almost every topic I focus on. This is just censorship, at this point. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Seraphimblade I discuss the atmosphere of racism and homophobia on Misplaced Pages, problems I consider structural rather than individual. This is something Misplaced Pages acknowledges is a problem, for example, in these articles: Racial bias on Misplaced Pages, Gender bias on Misplaced Pages. I do not say that a person is a racist or a homophobe in any of the cited examples. My concern here is whether this amounts to tone policing or not, and I worry that clamping down on editors for discussing problems of perceived or actual racial bias or any other kind of bias will create a chilling climate that discourages diverse voices from participating. Particularly when what is widely considered acceptable evidence or an acceptable argument often falls in the favor of the majority group. I think it is also important to remember that perceptions of who is "aggressive" and who is merely assertive or blunt is often colored by biases of various kinds; whether they be sexual, racial, ethnic, religious, or economic. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:30, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Theleekycauldron I would appreciate factual statements, rather than false statements. Name one time I called anyone an idiot on Misplaced Pages. Where have I stated that someone was acting in bad faith? I talk about Racial bias on Misplaced Pages, and indeed there's a whole article about the problem, because Misplaced Pages acknowledges that it is a problem. Discussing the problem of racism is not maligning people. And if we are supposed to be quiet and hush about the racial bias on Misplaced Pages, then that silences the ability of diverse voices to participate and it hold Misplaced Pages back. Saying that I should be topic banned from basically everything I edit because I'm apparently not nice enough or pleasing enough is addressing my personality, not the substance of what I write. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- @ScottishFinnishRadish As I mentioned and linked above, there's been a whisper campaign on Tumblr to "stop" me and other editors (including @User:Doug Weller, for some inexplicable reason). Pingnova and at least one other Misplaced Pages editor (prismatic-bell, Wiki username unknown) have participated in this discussion, that we know of. There could be others. The Tumblr user Moniquill (Monique "Blackgoose" Poirier of the Seaconke Wampanoag Tribe) and her followers have insinuated that because they disagree with my Indigenous-related editing, that I'm automatically suspicious on any Jewish or LGBTQ matter. My Jewish editing has never been contested. My LGBTQ editing of many, many years was questioned on one occasion based on a differing opinion on who is LGBTQ (the question was whether asexuals who identify as straight are queer, believe it or not), and some of the categories I created were actually kept in those discussions. So, the idea that I am some "controversial" person is a manufactured idea being promoted by individuals who have a vested interest in a particular Indigenous viewpoint, and vested interests in me being quiet. I think that's wrong and that I'm being unfairly maligned. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:03, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93 It's also a long-dead dispute that was decided upon and the decisions of which I respected, and it has not been an issue since. Furthermore, some of the categories I created were actually kept, so not all of the edits I made were contested let alone deleted. I'm concerned that my personality is under scrutiny here when we should be focusing on the subject of Indigenous self-identification. I'm also alarmed that some Misplaced Pages editors have spoken negatively about me on Tumblr, which makes me fear that canvassing in happening. This thread in particular on Tumblr attacks me and insinuates that I might be anti-Jewish or anti-LGBTQ (I'm a queer Jew), simply because they objected to my Native-related edits. So I find it suspicious that all of the issues in that Tumblr thread are being dredged up here, when the issue was narrowly about Indigenous self-identification. The Tumblr user prismatic-bell, who also mentions being a Misplaced Pages editor, wrote: "Would it be worth it to see if there’s overlap between these malicious editors, and if so, make that an additional angle of approach? I feel like the more groups we can prove are being harmed, the more likely Misplaced Pages will be to remedy the issue", as well as later writing "And what do we do to stop them, re: the rest?", suggesting they are advocating that something be done against me and other editors. The editor Doug Weller is also singled out for scrutiny. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:42, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49 If "aspersions and accusations are important to note", then I would argue that the above mentioned off-wiki whisper campaign to "stop" me and other editors, involving at least two Misplaced Pages editors (one of whom is right here in this discussion) is also something to be noted. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Seraphimblade Notifying you of this whisper campaign as well. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93 It's also a long-dead dispute that was decided upon and the decisions of which I respected, and it has not been an issue since. Furthermore, some of the categories I created were actually kept, so not all of the edits I made were contested let alone deleted. I'm concerned that my personality is under scrutiny here when we should be focusing on the subject of Indigenous self-identification. I'm also alarmed that some Misplaced Pages editors have spoken negatively about me on Tumblr, which makes me fear that canvassing in happening. This thread in particular on Tumblr attacks me and insinuates that I might be anti-Jewish or anti-LGBTQ (I'm a queer Jew), simply because they objected to my Native-related edits. So I find it suspicious that all of the issues in that Tumblr thread are being dredged up here, when the issue was narrowly about Indigenous self-identification. The Tumblr user prismatic-bell, who also mentions being a Misplaced Pages editor, wrote: "Would it be worth it to see if there’s overlap between these malicious editors, and if so, make that an additional angle of approach? I feel like the more groups we can prove are being harmed, the more likely Misplaced Pages will be to remedy the issue", as well as later writing "And what do we do to stop them, re: the rest?", suggesting they are advocating that something be done against me and other editors. The editor Doug Weller is also singled out for scrutiny. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:42, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- I would like to request that @User:Pingnova edit the comment about me to "they". I am not a "he". Thank you. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Yuchitown I think now that we see people expanding the question, and saying that I should be banned from all Indigenous topics and all Jewish topics and all LGBTQ topics, and perhaps even banned from all topics related to any "marginalized peoples", that this is no longer a question of policy. It's a question of personality. Effectively, a number of people are chiming in to advocate that I simply be banned from editing almost every topic I focus on. That's censorship targeting an individual. It's harmful to me, but beyond that, it harms Misplaced Pages and reduces the diversity of voices here. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Raladic
A similar issue around identities also occurred a few months ago in the LGBTQ space when @BB created a series of erroneous categories and tried to shift categories into sub-categories that would mis-categorize people with different LGBTQ identities. Refer to User talk:Bohemian Baltimore#Aromanticism and Asexuality are the A of LGBTQIA+ and Intersex is the I and is inherently an LGBTQIA+ identity and this one User talk:Bohemian Baltimore#Pansexuality is not the same as bisexuality by @Mason for context. And the resulting cleanup that had to be made afterwards per Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 April 7#Category:LGBT asexual people these wrong categorizations. So it does appear that the user may have a pattern of, while good-faith, wrong categorizations of BLPs, which are problematic, so a warning to be more careful of working on categorization of BLPs may be appropriate. Raladic (talk) 03:48, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
- No smear is intended, I merely pointed out that as I said above, that while I fully believe you made the changes in good faith, they were clerically incorrect as was pointed out in the subsequent discussions. I also fully appreciate you trying to increase visibility for LGBTQ people, as that is where I spend a lot of my time on Misplaced Pages as well as a queer person myself. Raladic (talk) 14:12, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
- I am concerned that it appears that BB is doubling down with their latest series of replies today and have still not struck/retracted their accusation here, despite having been asked by @Vanamonde93 several days ago here. It looks like they are not able to see their own baseless accusations when all the other editors did point out an erroneous categorization on their part and by the looks of this here, they still disagree despite multiple editors having explained their misunderstanding. Raladic (talk) 02:56, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Valereee
I had similar interactions at Talk:Indigenous_cuisine_of_the_Americas#Content/context_removal? regarding removal of identification of individuals as native American in Wikivoice over the tribe not being recognized by federal/state governments, at that article and at Louis Trevino and Vincent Medina. BB wanted to insert 'self-identify as'. They did drop it after I pointed out the NYT was calling them Ohlone and another editor reverted them, but BB does seem to be pretty focussed on the concept of self-identification (vs. identifying in WV) of BLPs if they don't agree a group officially exists or how it's defined? Valereee (talk) 12:22, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
- NYB, I'd like to hear that explanation w/re: identification of members of any tribe that isn't officially recognized by a government body. Valereee (talk) 15:19, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
- @Bohemian Baltimore, so you are saying that if a tribe isn't officially recognized by a government body, Misplaced Pages should be referring to folks as "self-identified", even if RS are referring to them as tribal members, because no one can actually be a member of a such a tribe? Valereee (talk) 17:23, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
- This category page lists notable citizens of the United States who claim to have Shoshone ancestry but who have no proof of this heritage. In some cases they make the claim despite having been proven to have no Shoshone heritage at all is pointy, RGW, and a BLP vio. I'm sympathetic to the fact there are many people out there making such false claims, but I feel like this is basically categorizing people as liars. Valereee (talk) 12:54, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Yuchitown
Bohemian Baltimore should not be banned from Native American topics. None of their edits to topics relating to Indian Country have been controversial or contested. Instead, MorbidThoughts has followed Bohemian Baltimore around and decided unilaterally that “self-identified” must be censored with certain individuals from Misplaced Pages. I was part of the Norby noticeboard discussion; the consensus was that New York Post was not an WP:RS and WP:CLAIM precludes the use of the word “claim” in BLPs. Native American identity is controversial and contested; it is a unique political identity in the United States. In published literature about Native American identity, variations of “self-identified” are used freely (examples here). Self-identified does not mean “fraud”; it means exactly what the dictionary states: “To identify or describe oneself as belonging to a particular category or group of people; to assign a particular characteristic or categorization to oneself.” A unique phenomenon has evolved in the US of tens of thousands of people believing and stating they have Native American ancestry without substantiating that belief (discussion and citations can be found at Cherokee descent). Making a statement of Native American descent is self-identification. I’ve yet to see anyone produce a published citation saying that the term “self-identification” is an unacceptable term in regard to statements of Native American descent. If MorbidThoughts would like to propose the censorship of this term as Misplaced Pages policy, they need to go through that process, as opposed to unilaterally deciding it is Misplaced Pages policy and attempting to get Bohemian Baltimore topic-banned based on their unsourced, personal feelings. Yuchitown (talk) 14:49, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- For those suggesting a topic ban, I'd just like reiterate that Bohemian Baltimore's edits to topics related to Indian Country and to federally recognized tribes have not be remotely controversial and have been extremely helpful. The contested gray area of unrecognized organizations and individuals have been the topic areas where other editors have made pushbacks. It would be a loss to the encyclopedia to lose this editor's contributions to Indian Country topics. These two topic areas are not the same. Yuchitown (talk) 19:18, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Aquillion
My concern reading this, conductwise, is WP:FAIT - it is clear from eg. the CFD discussion (where Baltimore participated) that the categories Bohemian Baltimore created are highly contentious. Numerous other discussions and objections since have made that even more clear. Yet they seem to have taken the no-consensus outcome as a green light to go around making hundreds of replacements, effectively trying to ram through the template's usage via FAIT without ever going through the discussion necessary to do so. Obviously that discussion is now necessary, but since they've shown that they're not going to wait on it, my suggestion is that Bohemian Baltimore be barred from implying that any aspect of someone's identity is self-identified, or creating, using, applying, or reapplying any categories of that nature until / unless a clear affirmative consensus is reached to do so or under what circumstances to do so. I don't think that this is just a content dispute - that would be true if this was just on one or two articles; WP:BOLD protects a few individual edits. But making the sorts of systematic changes that Bohemian Baltimore has been doing after editors have objected is trying to force your opinions through by FAIT and is inappropriate. --Aquillion (talk) 15:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Clayoquot
Courtesy ping to HouseBlaster who closed the relevant CFD discussion as "no consensus, therefore keep". Some of the statements being made here could be read as challenging that closure. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:19, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- Barkeep49 I agree that there's a difference between whether or not a category should exist and how particular editors use it. In practice though, since it's rare for RS to say that a given individual self-identifies as X, requiring RS to use a category is almost the same thing as deleting the category. I like your thinking that a community noticeboard discussion on how to use "self-identify" in BLPs could be fruitful. Many participants in the CfD discussion tried to discuss that issue but it probably wasn't the right venue. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:54, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
A core issue seems to be whether "self-identifies as..." is contentious material. In the CfD and on this page I see arguments both ways - to some it seems obviously contentious, and others put forth academically-sourced arguments that it's not contentious at all. A community consensus on whether it is or is not contentious would be helpful. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 20:44, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
I agree that Bohemian Baltimore's wording in the category pages was a BLP violation. I fixed one just now and noticed that nobody else had tried to do it. For the other non-deleted category pages named in this enforcement request, there has also been no effort made to edit the page to remove BLP problems. (I will go fix them after I publish this comment). Re-editing a page is the first part of community-based dispute resolution and in some cases it has not been done, which suggests that very little community-based dispute resolution has been tried. Things seem to be headed in the direction of "If the community hasn't decided whether something is a BLP violation, file a complaint and the admins at AE will decide." Is that how Misplaced Pages is supposed to work? Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 19:34, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Nil Einne
In response to Yuchitown, the BLPN discussion established the obvious. You cannot claim someone "self-identifies" as something unless supported by sources. Whether you want to call it pejorative, it doesn't matter much. BLP policy establishes that we shouldn't be adding unsourced content to articles point blank which includes saying someone self-identifies when it isn't what the sources say is. If sources said something like "according to subject A, they are Navajo" or "subject A has informed us they are of Navajo descent" then perhaps we could count that as self identification. But when the source says "Only when he was contacted by his birth mother decades later (a Fed-Ex package with photos and a letter) did he learn that his biological father was a Mexican Navajo Indian.
"; this isn't the same thing. We assume that sources have done what they feel is necessary to verify claims they present, and this source has said "his biological father was a Mexican Navajo Indian" not "his biological father self-identified" or "the person he believes is his biological father". Therefore we take this claim at face value as being true and don't add our own interpretations. From what I've seen, most of the time, there's no reliable secondary sources on whether the subject has tribal citizenship. So commentary on the lack of tribal citizenship isoften WP:OR based on primary sources (i.e. looking into records or worse asking the tribe themselves) or based on non RS (e.g. blogs). That said if RSS do mention lack of tribal citizenship we should present this in our article, and can consider how to handle this in categories. But it's unlikely via a self-identification one. Nil Einne (talk) 07:40, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
- Another example of Bohemian Baltimore's problematic editing . Removing the indigenous Mexican category is fine, was nothing in our article supporting it. But they not only added a self-identification category but added text to present the claim. The source they used only says "
Her maternal grandmother was of Spanish and Shoshone Native American ancestry
". Nothing suggests this self-identification. The Walk of Fame probably doesn't have a reputation for fact checking so we IMO shouldn't present the claim of Shoshone ancestry as true. But we have no idea whether this was from Swank, a publicist or whatever else nor what evidence there is. With no source demonstrating this is a wider concern there's no reason to mention this at all. Nil Einne (talk) 08:00, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Hemiauchenia
Although this is not related to the conduct at hand, I was concerned by the baseless personal attacks Bohemian Baltimore made in Talk:African-American_Jews#Merge_Proposal a few weeks ago, where he without foundation accuses editors in the discussion of displaying overt anti-Black racism
for having the audacity of... proposing that an article BB wrote be merged? Making baseless racism accusations is really unacceptable, especially for an editor with as many edits and as long a tenure as BB. Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Pingnova
- @Barkeep49 Here are a couple instances when Bohemian Baltimore has been incivil or disruptive when discussing this topic outside mainspace: Talk:Guainía_Taíno_Tribe and Talk:History_of_Georgetown_University#White_supremacy.
- Pushing OR: Talk:Bessie_Coleman#Not_Native and Talk:Bessie_Coleman#Native_American_claim. This is only one page, but is a theme with them.
- They also pushe the WP:FRINGE theory that Native Americans are not a race or ethnic category: Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_October_15#Category:American_people_who_self-identify_as_being_of_Native_American_descent.
- Bohemian Baltimore seems preoccupied with editing unsupported claims of race fraud into BLPs (and other pages) and has made such edits to hundreds of pages. Their OR frequently includes looking up 100 year old family census records, as with the Bessie Coleman article. These edits are not based on RS. Their editing is extremely disruptive to the topic area. Tracking down and fixing all of them will take some time. The Native American topic area has only a few regular editors. Additionally I think we should take extra caution in this case because they are targeting marginalized people, especially living marginalized people, and are pushing race WP:FRINGE. Pingnova (talk) 03:44, 9 November 2024 (UTC) Moved comment to own section. Please comment only in this section. Seraphimblade 05:45, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Andrevan
I'd like to offer Talk:African-American_Jews#Merge_Proposal from last month, Bohemian Baltimore accused other editors of anti-Black racism because they proposed merging Black Jews in New York City and had extensively edited that article to remove the Black Hebrew Israelite content, based on a discussion at Fringe noticeboard. Whether or not you disagree with the idea that Black Hebrew Israelites and Black Jews shouldn't be mixed together or whether or not you agree that there is not enough material to have a separate article about Black Jews in New York City versus being part of African-American Jews, I don't think it's really appropriate to accuse editors of racism simply for those editorial content decisions.Andre🚐 03:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, I see this was already mentioned, I missed it. Andre🚐 03:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by theleekycauldron
Here's a list of things Bohemian Baltimore has said, all of which are in violation of WP:AGF, WP:NPA, and/or WP:ASPERSION:
- They questioned CaroleHenson on whether or not they had a "reading comprehension issue".
- They said everyone in this thread was "erasing Black Jews" because they wanted to merge Black Jews in New York City to African-American Jews. (Which, as Warrenmck tried to explain to them, doesn't erase Black Jews, but they didn't hear that.)
- They also said in the same thread that Warrenmck was "turn this into an anti-Black witch hunt" for trying to remove Black Hebrew Israelites content from Black Jews in New York City.
- They said in an edit summary that Warrenmck's removal of content about a Black Orthodox Jew in the midst of the same removal was "smearing" before they had a chance to say, as they did an hour later, that it was a mistake. Never apologized or retracted it. (I believe it was them who said that
claiming that editors are disingenuous in intention is tantamount to calling them liars.
) - They referred to this AE filing as a
transparent attempt to harass me and censor my contributions to Misplaced Pages
, which I see no evidence of. - They said the thread filer is
deploying strong-arm tactics to permanently suppress the contributions of Native and allied editors
, which they did not provide evidence for. - They implied in this thread that Raladic wants them to
apologize for being queer
, when they haven't come close to saying any such thing. - They insisted that merging Category:LGBT asexual women to Category:Asexual women was
erasure of asexual and intersex people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender
and not a recognition that asexual women are broadly accepted as part of the LGBT community.
theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Bohemian Baltimore
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I'm interested in hearing Bohemian Baltimore's response while I go through the background. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:27, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
Each of these individuals was either adopted or self-identifies as Taíno. None of these people have tribal citizenship; the source of their Indigenous identity is very literally through their own self-identification rather than through any tribal citizenship.
None of this is covered in the articles, and appears to be WP:OR. WP:CATDEFINE saysA defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently refer to in describing the topic, such as the nationality of a person or the geographic location of a place.
These edits clearly fail that bar for categorization. I'm thinking a topic ban from the identification and citizenship of indigenous people. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:34, 31 October 2024 (UTC)- The diffs above are not about tribal citizenship, but about descent. What you say above,
some Puerto Ricans have begun to self-identify as Taíno based on their DNA heritage
, is about being of Taino descent. Everything else you've said about this falls firmly under WP:OR as it applies to specific living people. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:32, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- The diffs above are not about tribal citizenship, but about descent. What you say above,
- Clayoquot, if there is this much disagreement about it then it is fairly plainly contentious. WP:BLP says
Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Users who persistently or egregiously violate this policy may be blocked from editing.
Even if the self-identified label is neutral or even positive there is clearly contention about its use. In this situation no sources have been provided using the label, so it is unsourced, and arguments made here about its inclusion amount to WP:OR. Content policies, with OR specifically called out, must be strictly followed when dealing with BLPs. - I agree that there should be a broad community discussion about this, but as it stands applying the label without consensus and sourcing is a violation of our BLP policy. These violations have been persistent, and I would say after the amount of discussion on the topic clearly demonstrating a lack of consensus for inclusion, egregious. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:01, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Bohemian Baltimore: Before I evaluate this, can you please clarify what you mean by "tribal citizenship" as a member of the Taino people? I am certainly not an expert, but my understanding is that the Taino people are not a legally organized tribe, and that the ongoing efforts to create a registry of Taino citizens are unofficial and are themselves based on self-identification and voluntary registration. What criteria are you using to separate people whom you feel belong in
Category:Puerto Rican people who self-identify as being of Taíno descent
as opposed toCategory:Puerto Rican people of Taíno descent
? Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:14, 31 October 2024 (UTC) - The idea, as Valereee writes, that we can only identify a characteristic of a person if it is government recognized regardless of what RS says (meaning, for instance, we could possibly have to label someone born in Ontario as "self-identified male/female/non-binary" because their birth certificates do not require any gender/sex field) strikes me as an extreme position. But I feel we're in content decision territory here rather than BLP contentious topic violations and so this would either need to go to a community noticeboard - where there are more options for an uneasy mixing of the two - or have a content decision on this that Bohemian Baltimore is then violating in order for us to sanction them here. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:08, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- Although there is not firmly established consensus, with BLP that defaults to exclude contentious labeling. Bohemian Baltimore is obviously aware of the contentious nature of these edits, and continues to make them without consensus or sourcing. To me that falls far enough on the wrong side of WP:BLP that a narrow topic ban on the identification of indigenous peoples, even if limited to such a time as consensus supports their position, is called for. Trying to force through contentious labels on BLPs without consensus is disruptive. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:37, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- That's a really good point and you've convinced me that we can address the issue here. Per the other feedback, I'm definitely not ready to topic ban them from indigenous people and I wonder if even your narrow topic ban could impact positive work mentioned by some others above. So what if instead we issue a consensus required to change the identification of indigenous people restriction? Obviously we normally apply CR to articles not editors, but in this case I think them needing to get consensus before changing would address the issue at hand while still allowing them to do the other work. And per your comment - should there be a topic wide consensus formed (through an appropriate RfC held at a place like a Village pump) that these kinds of changes are appropriate the restriction effectively goes away. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:10, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Clayoquot there's a difference between whether or not a category should exist and how particular editors use it. The fact that there is not even consensus about its existence - I read that CfD at the time - does actually say to me that a higher degree of care is needed by those who do use it. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:22, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- Although there is not firmly established consensus, with BLP that defaults to exclude contentious labeling. Bohemian Baltimore is obviously aware of the contentious nature of these edits, and continues to make them without consensus or sourcing. To me that falls far enough on the wrong side of WP:BLP that a narrow topic ban on the identification of indigenous peoples, even if limited to such a time as consensus supports their position, is called for. Trying to force through contentious labels on BLPs without consensus is disruptive. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:37, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- Bohemian Baltimore needs to recognize that whatever their beliefs may be about the logical categorization of people of Taino heritage vs other indigenous groups, Misplaced Pages cannot apply labels unsupported by reliable sources. Absent such recognition I think the TBAN SFR proposes is necessary. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:05, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- Bohemian Baltimore If an editor were engaging in homophobic behavior toward you, they would be sanctioned for it. For that very reason, it's a serious accusation that needs to be backed up by evidence. I'm not seeing anything in this discussion that constitutes a homophobic attack. Please provide evidence, or retract that claim. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:35, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
- I think it should be clear just from reading the discussions over this matter that this is clearly a contentious thing to say about someone. So, we don't need to get into great intricacy of what a rather obscure part of the MOS says, or anything like that. WP:BLP is very clear on the point:
Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.
Saying "self-identifies" is in this case clearly contentious. If the sources don't unambiguously support that, it must be removed immediately and may not be restored without clear and unambiguous consensus, and anyone who does unilaterally restore it is engaged in sanctionable misconduct. I would also reiterate that there is a difference between the question of a category's existence, and its appropriateness of use. Category:Drug dealers exists, and should, but its use on a given article could still most certainly be a violation of BLP unless reliable sources unequivocally back up that it belongs there. Similarly, it seems the issue is not the existence of these categories, but their use in a lot of particular instances where the sources do not seem to back that. As to the instant case, I have no objection to a topic ban for Bohemian Baltimore since they obviously have no plans to stop doing this without such a sanction, but I'm afraid that in itself, that will not solve the BLP issues here, which seem by now to have become quite widespread. I think we might need to consider wider-scale action to address that, but I'm not yet sure what that looks like. I see above that a "consensus required" provision was mentioned, and there is in principle no reason that a "consensus required" sanction could not be added to a category, so perhaps a first step could be a "consensus required" restriction to add (or re-add) these categories to any article? If we did that, topic bans on individuals may not be necessary, provided that they will in fact abide by that restriction. Seraphimblade 13:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC)- I think I could support such a sanction, but surely the first step is simply enforcing WP:NOR; categories may not be used without supporting sources that are in the article, and doing so is already grounds for sanction. Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure we can make that type of sanction at AE with a rough consensus, but I'm with Vanamonde that we should start by enforcing policy around BLPs normally. I would hope that if editors see that we're taking action on this they'll be less likely to engage in the same type of editing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:17, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- Well, let's give that a try first then. Hopefully it will suffice, if not we can always look at it again later. Seraphimblade 20:28, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- What is the "this" (that) which e're giving a first try? Barkeep49 (talk) 20:30, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
A topic ban from the identification and citizenship of indigenous people
is what I proposed above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:32, 5 November 2024 (UTC)- Do we have evidence of disruption with discussion? Because if not I'd still prefer we allow them that. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think we've been given evidence of that. I'm fine with a article space topic ban, unless evidence of disruption in discussions is provided. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:53, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- The link to the discussion provided by Hemiauchenia does show poor behavior, and there was a second inappropriate comment. This does (somewhat) fall under the BLP CTOP, but is different than the issue we're discussing here. Combined with the aspersions above of homophobic attacks, I think along with the topic ban we should issue a warning about aspersions and accusations. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
- Barkeep49, would you see the above as
evidence of disruption with discussion
? I know I certainly do, so I would be more in favor of an overall topic ban, discussion included, than an article-only one. Throwing around baseless accusations like that is quite disruptive to a discussion, and between here and the above article merge discussion, it seems to indicate that's a pattern of behavior, not a one-time mistake. Seraphimblade 16:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)- Yes. That is evidence of disruption during discussions for me. It also is outside of the scope of the proposed topic ban. My bigger thinking is that I think Bohemian Baltimore is doing work the encyclopedia benefits from and so if there are ways we can have them focus on that work I'd like to try it. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:39, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
- @ScottishFinnishRadish When I wrote, "I hope these are mistakes on your part", that is explicitly NOT claiming that the person is racist. And that person agreed that it was a mistake, so I was correct. Furthermore, I never accused the person above of being homophobic themselves. In fact, I explicitly stated that I did not think that person was acting in bad faith. I am surprised that my words are being characterized as overly harsh, when on both occasions I went out of my way to acknowledge that the other person was likely simply mistaken. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- Barkeep49, would you see the above as
- Do we have evidence of disruption with discussion? Because if not I'd still prefer we allow them that. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- What is the "this" (that) which e're giving a first try? Barkeep49 (talk) 20:30, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- Well, let's give that a try first then. Hopefully it will suffice, if not we can always look at it again later. Seraphimblade 20:28, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure we can make that type of sanction at AE with a rough consensus, but I'm with Vanamonde that we should start by enforcing policy around BLPs normally. I would hope that if editors see that we're taking action on this they'll be less likely to engage in the same type of editing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:17, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- I think I could support such a sanction, but surely the first step is simply enforcing WP:NOR; categories may not be used without supporting sources that are in the article, and doing so is already grounds for sanction. Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- I do not think a topic-ban is needed at this time, unless there is evidence of additional problems after this discussion. I perceive the challenged edits as based on a good-faith understanding of the underlying issue, and as being quite defensible as within policy (since any living person's identification as of Taino descent may have a subjective component). Of course there are other arguments against changing the category (because the "self-identified" wording has an unjustified accusatory overtone), and consensus seems to be against doing so, but is there evidence that BB is now disregarding that consensus? If not, a reminder to be circumspect and to maintain civility on these sensitive and difficult topics hopefully should, in my view, be sufficient at this time. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:31, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- I am surprised you find his answer to your Taino question sufficient @Newyorkbrad as that answer helped push me towards sanction. Ialso find the evidence presented by Nil Einne, Pingnova, and Valeree of problems sufficient for a topic ban. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:25, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49: The consensus here seems to favor your view. Newyorkbrad (talk) 09:46, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
- I am surprised you find his answer to your Taino question sufficient @Newyorkbrad as that answer helped push me towards sanction. Ialso find the evidence presented by Nil Einne, Pingnova, and Valeree of problems sufficient for a topic ban. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:25, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
- Bohemian Baltimore's behavior is incredibly aggressive and disruptive. Reading through the diffs in this thread and the thread itself, I can't imagine how people are supposed to collaborate with them when they malign their detractors as idiots, bigots, and bad-faith actors without anything approaching evidence. (Look at Hemiauchenia's thread, the filer diffs, Raladic's thread, and literally this page.) I think the best solution here would be a topic ban from self-identification with marginalized groups, broadly construed, but since that's not a CTOP, i support topic ban per ScottishFinnishRadish. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:31, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
- I think the self-identification falls under BLP which is a CT and thus something we could do. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:59, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
- a BLP self-identification with marginalized groups TBAN works for me :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
- oh, Self-trout, I assumed SFR was proposing a topic ban from indigenous groups (which, as it turns out, isn't a CTOP either!), but they've actually proposed one around identification of BLPs with indigenous groups. I would extend it beyond indigenous groups, since they have the same behavioral problems in the Jewish and LGBTQ topic areas, but yes, support that suggestion too. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Bohemian Baltimore: I never said you used the word "idiot", just like I never said you used the words "bad-faith actor". I am going to list what you did say in a separate statement above, because the list is frankly too long to put here. Would recommend that other admins read it.
- But, no, you're not just "discussing the problem of racism", and no one is saying that you should be "quiet and hush about the racial bias on Misplaced Pages", and I'm not pearl-clutching ("feigning an overreaction with a typically bad-faith invocation of WP:CIVIL"). You have a pattern of accusing people of intentionally suppressing you and/or marginalized groups simply because they hold views that aren't yours, and that's not acceptable behavior. The reason I think your topic ban shouldn't be limited to Indigenous people is that your accusations and aspersions aren't, either. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- I think the self-identification falls under BLP which is a CT and thus something we could do. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:59, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
- Though it borders on blasphemy to disagree with Newyorkbrad about arbitration matters, I do disagree. Very basically BB is not showing a willingness to stick to what sources say. That's a problem anywhere, and particularly a problem in this fraught topic. I still support a TBAN with the scope suggested above. I recognize that there have been problems with categories on biographies of queer folk, but I'm leery of a TBAN there simply because it seems to me a recipe for wikilawyering, given that the dispute they were involved in was with respect to the boundaries of "LGBT". Vanamonde93 (talk) 00:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93: Please don't worry about disagreeing with me. I probably cast more solo dissenting votes while I was on the Committee than everyone else put together, so why should it stop now? Obviously there is a consensus here that agrees with you. Newyorkbrad (talk) 09:46, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
- We just need a bit of clarification of where support lies, and we can wrap this up. We have on the table currently:
- A topic ban on the identification and citizenship of indigenous people, broadly construed
- A topic ban on the identification and citizenship of indigenous people, mainspace only, broadly construed
- A topic ban on self-identification of marginalized groups, broadly construed
- A warning for casting aspersions and accusations
- I think
marginalized groups
is too blurry to make an effective topic ban. I believe there has been enough demonstration of issues with their discussions to go for the full topic ban on identification and citizenship of indigenous people without the allowance for talk discussion, but I'm not so opposed to allowing discussion that I would hold things up over it, although it looks like the rough consensus here covers talk pages as well. At the risk of adding another thing to consider this late into the process there's a topic ban on the self-identification or citizenship of living or recently deceased people (we'll call this 5), which covers marginalized groups without any blurry edges. If we think there is enough concern to be talking about specific tbans covering marginalized groups, LGBT people, and Jewish people then I think self-identification and citizenship of BLPs is tight enough to allow their editing to continue, but broad enough to stop disruption. Call me in support of 1, 4, and 5. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:24, 11 November 2024 (UTC)- I support the bolded topic ban proposal (which I see as inclusive of discussion). Barkeep49 (talk) 16:57, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
- I would support 1 and 5, and 4 in addition to but not instead of one of those. Seraphimblade 20:33, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
- For me we're going beyond the warning with the topic ban we're choosing to enact. But yes the aspersions and accusations are important to note. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:23, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
- Support 4 and 5 simultaneously, oppose 1 and 2 as too narrow (although support 1 if 2, 3, and 5 don't gain consensus). theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 10:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- Barkeep49, are you opposed to the warning, or just ambivalent? Right now I would say we're on the edge of a consensus about the warning, with a solid consensus for the topic ban on the self-identification of living or recently deceased people. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:59, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- What is the warning doing here that the topic ban is not? We're not warning them for the other misbehavior they've displayed here - we're topic banning them. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
I do not like homophobia. I do not like being subject to homophobic attacks. These old conversations have been irrelevantly thrown in my face, on-Wiki and off-Wiki, by multiple people.
is an example from this AE report. This and this are tangentially related. I see the topic ban as addressing the BLPvio, and the warning relating to communication style in general. I support the warning, but I also see that the reason for the warning is why you supported the broader topic ban that covers Talk: as well. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)- For me, 1 or 5 (I'm fine with either) addresses the issue of trying to force what has proven to be highly contentious material into BLPs, so that's the misconduct leading to a topic ban (and TBs normally also cover talk page participation, so we're not taking any highly unusual step including that). 4 addresses the issue that, in addition to that, Bohemian Baltimore seems to have gotten into a habit of casting aspersions (and some pretty serious ones; most people would certainly not like to be called racist, homophobic, or the like) in discussions, and will need to drop that habit, not just in this topic area but in any discussions they may participate in going forward. If, going forward, they are going to bring such an accusation against any editor, they will need rock-solid evidence for it, not just to throw it out there. Seraphimblade 21:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- What is the warning doing here that the topic ban is not? We're not warning them for the other misbehavior they've displayed here - we're topic banning them. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- For me we're going beyond the warning with the topic ban we're choosing to enact. But yes the aspersions and accusations are important to note. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:23, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
- Bohemian Baltimore, I have just had to move several comments from the admin discussion section to yours. Please comment only in your own section going forward. Seraphimblade 02:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- I haven't looked at BB's wider edits, but it seems to me that the narrow issue of categories could be satisfactorily resolved with an RfC. It could just be an RfC about categories related to indigenous peoples of North America. Then BB and everyone else will be required to conform to it. I'm dubious of Theleekycauldron's suggestion about a wider RfC as there would be more argument about the scope than about the result. Zero 03:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Bohemian Baltimore: You've alluded to an off-wiki canvassing campaign against you taking place on Tumblr in your comments above. I see that you have provided some links, though I am aware that it can be a bit hard to fully share all of that information on Misplaced Pages. If there is relevant information you cannot share on-wiki, I do hope that you collect evidence of the off-wiki coordination and send it to the Arbitration Committee, which is competent to review that sort of stuff and to take actions based on off-wiki evidence. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 03:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- I'm seeing a rough consensus for a topic ban on the self-identification or citizenship of living or recently deceased people and a warning for casting aspersions and making accusations. Barring any administrator objection I'll close with that result soon. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Pyramids09
Pyramids09 is p-blocked for a week from Zionism and is warned not to violate the the consensus required provision and our policies on edit-warring. Vanamonde93 (talk) 04:40, 5 November 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Pyramids09
The user was reminded of the consensus required provision on their talk page 25 October after they violated the 1RR (first revert, second revert). They said they would propose on talk page. To date the user has 0 edits on the talk page.
Discussion concerning Pyramids09Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Pyramids09Hello. I am not going to try to defend my actions, because I am clearly in the wrong. I did not familiarize myself with the rules around contentious topics, such as the I/P conflict. I have been informed of my mistakes, and am now going through the proper procedure about editing. Thank you. Pyramids09 (talk) 21:11, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by xDanielxThis isn't the most experienced user, and the consensus-required restriction isn't obvious. I know it's one of the items in the edit notice, but it's visually similar to the usual extended-confirmed notice which we're all used to skipping over. Users probably need to be personally notified before we can really expect compliance. — xDanielx /C\ 05:35, 1 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by Selfstudier@XDanielx: Reported editor was advised in edit summary here and acknowledged the crp here along with a statement that they would seek consensus on the talk page. The subsequent reversion with a disguised edit summary simply ignores this. Still, at least now, they are making an attempt in talk. Selfstudier (talk) 10:35, 1 November 2024 (UTC) Selfstudier (talk) 10:35, 1 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Pyramids09
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LivinAWestLife
LivinAWestLife blocked for 24 hours for a straightforward violation of WP:1RR. The next block will be longer. Vanamonde93 (talk) 20:21, 31 October 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning LivinAWestLife
These are four of their five edits to that article . They have made two edits to the talk page : 1, 2. I don't think we should wait for them to make a fifth attempt; they should be formally warned not to do this again.
Discussion concerning LivinAWestLifeStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by LivinAWestLifeStatement by SelfstudierThink we are beyond a warning now. Clearly no intent to comply with crp or 1R.Selfstudier (talk) 20:16, 31 October 2024 (UTC) Result concerning LivinAWestLife
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Shahray
Appeal declined. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by ShahrayI was topic banned by another editor for three months from editing "anything related to history of Ukraine or Rus', broadly interpreted". I was accused in "edit warring" in this topic. I acknowledge the fact that I was banned previously for edit warring, and understood the issue. But regarding this case, I believe I was wrongly banned, because of the following reasons: 1. This ban was initially appealed by Mellk. After a few responses on the talk page where I tried to discuss with them proposed changes in the article, they dropped out of discussion , refused to answer afterwards and headed to Asilvering's talk page instead, where they stated:"I still find it impossible to discuss with Shahray" . Asilvering supported their behavior and even suggested to go to Notice Board, basing it solely on the fact that I was banned two times previously (one time by Asilvering). Mellk themself made some unconstractive reverts and edits with barely any explanation given , and even could respond to me from other editor perspective without their approval first. I didn't have any such problem with other editors and followed the suggestions they've given to me . 2. I usually followed one revert rule everywhere and didn't continue to revert Mellk and tried to discuss instead. 3. Asilvering might unconstractively target me. Besides the support they gave to Mellk's behavior mentioned above, on their talk page, they ignored my comment and concerns about Mellk , and told them instead to "use it as evidence". Their block doesn't appears to be constructive either. I recently made RFC in Second Bulgarian Empire article about "Russian" anachronisms, but they removed it even though there was not a single word about "Ukraine" or "Rus'". I genuinely apologize where I could have made a few more reverts and didn't initially discussed. I won't revert (restore my changes) entirely if that helps. I will only revert changes done by other editors without reaching consensus. At least I am requesting to allow me to edit talk pages to broadly request comment from community for my changes like I did in Second Bulgarian Empire article.
Statement by AsilveringNothing much further to say, but happy to answer any questions. Please also see User talk:Asilvering#topic ban? -- asilvering (talk) 14:46, 3 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 1)Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by ShahrayStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by YmblanterSince the user does not seem to have understood why they were topic-banned, it might be a good idea to make the topic ban of indefinite duration, appealable in 3 months.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:58, 3 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)Result of the appeal by Shahray
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Request for 1RR at Fascism
Fascism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
This article had 1RR imposed indefinitely in 2009, by KrakatoaKatie, as an individual admin action. Judging based on comments so far, there's uncertainty about whether the restriction is enforceable. The options are to leave the restriction in limbo, remove the restriction, or have an admin adopt the restriction explicitly under CT, potentially AmPol. Are any admins willing to do so? There has been recent, AmPol-adjacent disruption of the article. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
- I think there's a serious issue with an article restriction stuck in limbo like this. Some admins and editors think it's in place and enforceable, and others think it's misplace and unenforceable. We should move in one direction or the other. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
- That is a bit of a pickle, since the content being edit warred over isn't really AP2, persay, so placing 1RR as a CTOP action is a bit squirrely. I don't think anyone would object to using AmPol in this way, but if someone did they would have a point that it is a borderline use of CTOP sanctions. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
- To make the connection a bit more explicit:
- The main person recently edit warring to remove "far-right" as a descriptor of fascism is Johnny Spasm. I'll drop a formal notice at their talk page, but to be clear, I'm not advocating for enforcement action against him. Diffs of removal: 1, 2, 3, 4.
- JS contextualized this repeated removal as an American-politics-related action in comments at the talk page:
- dismissing the view of another editor and making assertions about their politics because they
"live in Seattle, Washington"
(diff) - identifying as an
"American with far right beliefs"
and arguing that"it is the far left in America that displays more fascist values than the far right"
, calling Biden out specifically (diff) - Criticizes the descriptor's inclusion while
"both candidates in the US Presidential election are throwing around the word fascism"
()
- dismissing the view of another editor and making assertions about their politics because they
- If that's not enough of a connection, it's unlikely that enforcement of the 1RR could be reasonably connected to any other CT, and the restriction should be removed. Admins here, with experience judging which articles are covered by which CTs, are best placed to make the call to either adopt the restriction or remove it. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:22, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
- Before assuming this as a CTOP action, has there been much edit warring other than the recent edit warring that resulted in a block? For an indefinite 1RR there should be a substantial history of edit warring. That 1RR looked like it was a response to an edit war almost 15 years ago, so absent more disruption I'd say let it lapse. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- It's pretty actively edited, with multiple reversions in the past week. I have no objection to allowing it to lapse, though, replacing it if needed. KKatie hasn't edited in a week, maybe suspense for a few days as not urgent? Valereee (talk) 16:43, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
- There has not been any other recent major edit warring. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:13, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
- There was a minor edit war over the same left v. right issue on 10 November. Three editors involved, and one reverted twice. That editor has a brief enough edit history that it's easily gleaned that they are American or have a predominant interest in American topics. Only edit to a political bio is an American political bio.
- Again, I wouldn't object to someone determining that this is not enough disruption and removing the restriction. Either side of this knife's edge would be good. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that we should have a decision one way or another, but unless it's pressing I'm willing to wait a bit longer for KrakatoaKatie to weigh in. At this point I'm coming down on the side of removing 1RR. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- Gosh, I missed this discussion somehow. Sorry, everybody. :-( If there's no need, by all means let's lift it. I remember placing this, which is a minor miracle considering I don't remember to rinse the conditioner from my hair sometimes, and it was a barn burner of an edit war back then. I'm all for lifting stuff that's no longer necessary. Katie 14:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that we should have a decision one way or another, but unless it's pressing I'm willing to wait a bit longer for KrakatoaKatie to weigh in. At this point I'm coming down on the side of removing 1RR. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- Before assuming this as a CTOP action, has there been much edit warring other than the recent edit warring that resulted in a block? For an indefinite 1RR there should be a substantial history of edit warring. That 1RR looked like it was a response to an edit war almost 15 years ago, so absent more disruption I'd say let it lapse. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- To make the connection a bit more explicit:
- That is a bit of a pickle, since the content being edit warred over isn't really AP2, persay, so placing 1RR as a CTOP action is a bit squirrely. I don't think anyone would object to using AmPol in this way, but if someone did they would have a point that it is a borderline use of CTOP sanctions. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
- It looks like lifting the restriction is agreed but I checked a couple of recent edits that asserted fascism is a far-left ideology (one editor went on to make the same claim regarding Nazism), and it is crystal-clear that it is an AP issue. I know we're supposed to be nice but edits like that warrant a NOTHERE or CIR indef, IMHO. While we have to welcome new editors, we also have a duty to support established editors who get worn down by the grinding river of ignorance. Johnuniq (talk) 01:11, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
CoolAndUniqueUsername
Closing with no action. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:13, 5 November 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning CoolAndUniqueUsername
CoolAndUniqueUsername has obviously gamed the system to get ECP.
They're clearly not here to build an encyclopedia. Building up an account with hundreds of minor fixes in article space to get EC, then immediately quitting once hitting the EC boundary is very suspicious. It's more indicative of a person trying to farm edits on an account for the sole purpose of influencing discussions/content on-wiki. The strategy of making several edits to fix CS1 errors then switching to POV-pushing is the MO of the "Tech for Palestine" Discord/influence operation so this is the biggest giveaway.
Discussion concerning CoolAndUniqueUsernameStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by CoolAndUniqueUsernameStatement by SelfstudierGaming ECR is not to be condoned, pretty sure that fixing maintenance categories is engaged in by more than a few, here's a recent example, the question arises whether there is actual evidence of reported editor being instructed by T4P (for ease of writing) rather than it being
Statement by ÏvanaApparently I need to comment here since months ago I shared a category with CS1 errors so that means anyone fixing them is my pawn. I'll just link to what I have already said in ARCA here. Thanks. - Ïvana (talk) 22:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by (Butterscotch Beluga)I went and notified Smallangryplanet at their talk page as they are currently being accused of tag-teaming & participation in an off-site campaign - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 23:04, 4 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by SmallangryplanetHey, I'm not sure why I've been pinged here. As far as I can tell it just looks like CoolAndUniqueUsername and I have similar interests, we've interacted on a talk page maybe once or twice? But again, it is not against wikipedia policy to be interested in the same things as other editors. This feels like WP:ASPERSIONS because of a coincidence, rather than a serious accusation. Smallangryplanet (talk) 14:06, 5 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning CoolAndUniqueUsername
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Snowstormfigorion
Appeal declined. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED). Appealing user : Snowstormfigorion (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Snowstormfigorion (talk) 21:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by SnowstormfigorionThe ban concerns two edits (first and second), as well as what the imposing-admin states to be re-inserting of content where verifiability is in dispute without engaging in discussion in the talk page; see here. As I have explained to the admin, I did not participate much in the discussion as I truly had no strong preference for either of the options listed. And regarding the verification concerns, I was genuinely under the belief that the verification issue was a matter of debate between the two sides, rather than an established fact; had I known the latter, I would not have made the two edits restoring the original phrasing and removing the verification tags. The admin also mentions that I responded to being told I was inserting misinformation and that the tags were not removed by an editor, Andrevan, making the same reverts as I was. As with the former, I truthfully believed that the issue was a topic of discussion, and thus, that what I was told was a side of that discussion and that Andre was misled in this case; clearly, I was. I understand the significance of administrators' role in ensuring a healthy environment for all users, and I very much respect your decisions. I have been on Misplaced Pages for just over a year, and have certainly made my share of mistakes, as shown on my talk page. I have only really started editing contentious topic articles this September, with all the regulations and protocols that apply to them being newfound to me and frankly somewhat intimidating. It was, wholeheartedly, never my intention to create conflict or undermine the efforts of others, I was simply trying to contribute to the topic based on my understanding at the time. To that end, I have already taken the initiative to familiarize myself with the relevant policies and guidelines and best practices to avoid similar issues in the future, and, in the event that I do not adhere to the former, will be ready to accept any measure administrators deem necessary. I genuinely value the opportunity to participate, improve, and constructively contribute to the site, therefore, I ask for a last and final chance to demonstrate that I can be a positive member of the community.
Statement by Vanamonde93I stand by this sanction. Snowstormfigorion was told "you are inserting false information", and responded to that claim, yet chose to both revert in the content where verifiability was in dispute and subsequently reverted even a failed verification tag. All of this was on a page they'd previously been blocked from for edit-warring, so this was a second offence. Vanamonde93 (talk) 04:33, 5 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 1)Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by SnowstormfigorionStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)Result of the appeal by Snowstormfigorion
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Iskandar323
No action, broader case currently before Arbcom. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:01, 12 November 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Iskandar323
Iskandar has engaged in POV pushing, in the process systematically manipulating content to favour specific interpretations of facts or points of view in violation of the UCoC. Requested MovesIskandar takes differing positions on whether to refer to an event as a massacre depending on who the victims are; they consistently support using the word when the victims are Palestinian, and oppose its use when they are Israeli. The double standard can be seen in their justifications for these moves; at Engineer's Building airstrike they argue that "massacre" should be used as a descriptive title - in other words, using independent reasoning. At Attack on Holit, however, they argue that the title should reflect the sources, and that independent reasoning should not be used to support "massacre". While individually these !votes can be justified, collectively they demonstrate a systematic effort to manipulate content to advance a specific POV. Language in articlesIskandar uses different words to refer to the Palestinian POV than the Israeli POV. This can be demonstrated by reviewing under which circumstances they add or remove the word "claim"; they consistently remove it when used in relation to the Palestinian POV, and frequently add it in relation to the Israeli POV. The double standard is very evident in some of these edits. For example, at Anti-Palestinianism during the Israel–Hamas war they corrected a MOS:CLAIM issue in relation to a Palestinian POV, explaining Three weeks later, at Al-Shifa ambulance airstrike, they took a statement by the IDF which was already attributed with "said" and "double-couched with a 'claimed'"; the only explanation here was In isolation, some, but not all, of these edits can be justified - but collectively, the pattern demonstrates a systematic effort to manipulate content to advance a specific POV.
@Ealdgyth: The scope of that case request is limited to activities including an off-wiki component, which is why I didn’t include these originally - and unless ArbCom decides on a different scope, these probably don’t fit in there. BilledMammal (talk) 21:27, 6 November 2024 (UTC) @Vanamonde93: The massacre data is before ArbCom; the word use analysis is not. To respond to your request about whether the disparity in language use exists in the sources, it does not. Reviewing some of the examples, I find the following where Iskandar deviates from sources. They include presenting positions aligned with a pro-Palestinian POV as statements when sources present them as claims, and presenting positions aligned with a pro-Israeli POV as claims when sources present them as a statements or even facts:
BilledMammal (talk) 01:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Iskandar323Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Iskandar323Statement by xDanielx@Ealdgyth: could you explain what you mean by I'm not commenting on the merits of this particular case, but the general approach of demonstrating a pattern of inconsistencies seems sound. There will never be incontrovertible proof of POV pushing, at least of the more covert type that experienced editors might engage in. Isolated instances of source misrepresentation could also be simple mistakes. I think the question is whether there's sufficient evidence of a pattern. — xDanielx /C\ 16:33, 6 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by Zero0000BilledMammal put his "massacre" statistics before ArbCom more than two months ago and they are still there. Why is it permitted to introduce them again here? As to their value, in this RM about a massacre of Israelis Iskandar323 actually proposed two alternative titles which both have "massacre" in them. This isn't in BilledMammal's table, but when I suggested that it would make his table more balanced, BilledMammal refused with an excuse that I consider tendentious. More generally, the table says nothing about what the sources say, and nothing about the occasions when editors declined to intervene in an RM on talk pages they were already active on. BilledMammal in particular has not refuted the claim that changing the titles of several articles on killings of Palestinians was required to correct a glaring NPOV imbalance. Zero 11:58, 7 November 2024 (UTC) I couldn't help noticing that BilledMammal lists this diff about an Assyrian ruler circa 720 BCE as "Advances the Palestinian POV". This is simply ridiculous. I also notice that about 1/3 of the "claim" examples are addition of attribution to assertions made by the Israeli military or government that had been added as facts in wikivoice. Zero 03:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC) @BilledMammal: Thanks for confirming that it wasn't an accident. I'll leave aside the fact that "claim" is entirely appropriate for the boasts of ancient rulers. The relevant point here is that Iskandar323 did not make the connection you claim, not even the slightest hint of it. The connection is only being made by you, according to your own POV. It doesn't even make sense; if Sargon didn't deport the Jews it means they remained in Samaria, which hardly supports the Palestinian POV. Zero 10:40, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
To editor ScottishFinnishRadish: Are you going to propose that all ARBPIA reports should go to ArbCom? That's the way it is heading. This is a report about one person and I don't see the slightest reason that AE can't deal with it. Zero 14:30, 11 November 2024 (UTC) To editor ScottishFinnishRadish: No administrator has given an opinion that there is even prima facie evidence of a case to answer. A "nebulous case" isn't a case at all. Vanamonde93 wrote "I looked at your first five links, and they don't hold up to scrutiny". He is right. The closest is that Ealdgyth prefers that BilledMammal add it to an existing case. BilledMammal is on a drive to get his POV-opposites banned and will continue for as long as his nebulous cases are taken seriously. Another point is that Iskandar323 has not edited since several weeks before this case was opened and might not even be aware it exists. Zero 15:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by ABHammadFollowing this filing I decided to take a look at Iskandar323's recent edits from September (as far back as I had time to check). I clearly see that Iskandar323 is doing edits that can be described as POV pushing.
Most of the edits are not policy violations (though there are cases of gaming of policies used to remove content that doesn't seem to align with the general ideological line promotedf by this editor), but it is consistent with a systematic attempt to strengthen one side. ABHammad (talk) 15:14, 7 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by Vice regentScottishFinnishRadish, I think both of those diffs are justified.
Of course, I agree that instead of using the word "claim" Iskandar should have said "according to" or "stated by" etc.VR (Please ping on reply) 19:24, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by HuldraJust a note on one of the diffs: Al-Shifa Hospital siege: ™Says that it is a "claim" that tunnels exist beneath Al-Shifa. The source presents it as a fact.". The problem is that the Israeli source is highly disputed. There is even a wp-article about it: Alleged military use of al-Shifa hospital. Yes, he should have brought other sources, but the reality is that it is a much-disputed claim, Huldra (talk) 23:47, 11 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by WafflefritesI don’t think these mos:claim issues are too big a deal. They can easily be fixed by another editor. Iskandar323 does have a tendency to mass remove content, but usually provides a legitimate reason (for example, removing unsourced content). I can’t comment on whether his removal of info based on source unreliability requires additional scrutiny because I am unfamiliar with the sources. Some of his edits, like mass removals (or replacing a long-standing user generated map, or changing the Star of David black) can be jarring but I think most of the time they are based on legitimate wiki policies. Except changing the Star of David Black. I (and I think other editors) probably assumed he was under a lot of stress and maybe looking at too many graphic images, videos, and news about the war. Recently, Iskandar323 was heavily involved in a discussion that downgraded the Anti-Defamation League’s reliability ranking on Misplaced Pages. I do not agree with the extent of the downgrade, especially when there are real cases of current antisemitism . However, he did have a point that the ADL needs improvement. It needs improvement in its methodology and presentation of numbers and in explaining/giving examples of how anti-Zionism can lead to antisemitism, rather than just equating the two and changing definitions. I did see his username being written about in some articles outside of Misplaced Pages about this ADL thing. Ultimately I think downgrading ADL to the extent that it was downgraded was the wrong move (should have been downgraded to additional considerations in that category), and there is public backlash. So in conclusion, I think Iskandar323 is an editor who mostly is following Misplaced Pages policies but sometimes his very bold POV can draw anger and may result in situations and outcomes (like the ADL outcome and backlash) that really should have been more moderate. I also appreciate BilledMammal bringing up his concerns here. Sometimes I don’t think editors take Talk page discussions seriously. And if there is a real issue with editing, editors should try to determine if it is a real issue that is in line with policies. BilledMammal could be wrong or he could be right at times. Wafflefrites (talk) 15:03, 12 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Iskandar323
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CarmenEsparzaAmoux
Closed as moot Valereee (talk) 17:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning CarmenEsparzaAmoux
CarmenEsparzaAmoux has engaged in POV pushing, in the process systematically manipulating content to favour specific interpretations of facts or points of view in violation of the UCoC. Source misrepresentationCarmenEsparzaAmoux has repeatedly misrepresented sources, in a way that advances a Palestinian POV. This includes making claims not supported by the source, making claims in Wikivoice that the source attributes, and including only the Palestinian POV even when the source they use prominently includes the Israeli POV. The following is a small sample of these edits; if helpful I can provide many more, although please be aware I only reviewed a small sample of their edits and there will be many I overlooked:
This issue has been raised with them previously, but it was not rectified. Language in articlesCarmenEsparzaAmoux uses different words to refer to the Palestinian POV than the Israeli POV. This can be demonstrated by reviewing under which circumstances they add or remove the word "claim"; they consistently remove it when used in relation to the Palestinian POV, and frequently add it in relation to the Israeli POV. This double standard can be seen in edits like this one, where in regards to competing positions they say that Hamas "states" while Israel "claims". It can also be seen in the differing ways they treat sources based on whether the content aligns with their POV; in this edit, they change the appropriately-attributed "New York Times reported" to the "New York Times claimed", while in this edit Al Jazeera "states" while Israel "claims". In isolation, some, but not all, of these edits can be justified - but collectively, the pattern demonstrates a systematic effort to manipulate content to advance a specific POV.
None
@Liz: The only connection between the two reports is the editor - the evidence presented and the activities I'm asking to be reviewed are unrelated. BilledMammal (talk) 11:42, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning CarmenEsparzaAmouxStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by CarmenEsparzaAmoux
Statement by FortunateSonsPlease note that the reported party has been blocked following a CU. I believe that this report can now be closed. FortunateSons (talk) 17:11, 7 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning CarmenEsparzaAmoux
Just noting that their is a current arbitration case request at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Covert canvassing and proxying in the Israel-Arab conflict topic area involving these same two editors. I know Arbitration and AE are two separate forums but I want to make sure there isn't "double jeopardy" or the same claims being made in two different noticeboards. Liz 08:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
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Nableezy
Rough consensus among uninvolved administrators that the Arbitraiton Comittee is better able to determine what, if anything, the problems are and any appropriate sanction. Will be referring it to them at WP:ARCA. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Nableezy
Nableezy has engaged in POV pushing, in the process systematically manipulating content to favour specific interpretations of facts or points of view in violation of the UCoC. Requested MovesNableezy takes differing positions on whether to refer to an event as a massacre depending on who the victims are; they consistently support using the word when the victims are Palestinian, and oppose its use when they are Israeli. They support this by applying double standards. For example, at Attack on Holit, they argue that massacre shouldn't be used because "attack" is more common in reliable sources. At Engineer's Building airstrike they argue that we shouldn't follow WP:COMMONNAME but should use a descriptive title, with them arguing that "massacre" is that descriptive title. While individually these !votes can be justified, collectively they demonstrate a systematic effort to manipulate content to advance a specific POV. Language in articlesNableezy uses different words to refer to the Palestinian POV than the Israeli POV. This can be demonstrated by reviewing under which circumstances they add or remove the word "claim"; they consistently remove it when used in relation to the Palestinian POV, and frequently add it in relation to the Israeli POV. While less blatant than the behavior of CAE or Iskandar, this manipulation is still clear. For example, at List of Palestinian civilian casualties in the Second Intifada, they changed Three weeks later, at Al-Shifa Hospital they One week later, at Ahed Tamimi, they are back to correcting MOS:CLAIM violations by changing In isolation, some, but not all, of these edits can be justified - but collectively, the pattern demonstrates a systematic effort to manipulate content to advance a specific POV.
That source was published on November 14; ten days before your edit, and three days before the tunnel was discovered. The source used for the statement was published two days before your edit, and says in its own voice that the tunnels exist and that they have visited them. However, the issue isn't the specific edits - the issue is the pattern, which demonstrates you apply different standards to claims aligned with the Israeli POV than you do claims aligned with the Palestinian. BilledMammal (talk) 05:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
@Vanamonde93 and Seraphimblade: Looking at the specific edits of the claim review, I believe there is evidence of the sort you ask for. In addition to the previously discussed Al-Shifa Hospital example, where they use "claim" to attribute a statement to Israel when the source put the statement in their own voice, we have:
(Note that I could continue - including with edits outside the narrow scope of MOS:CLAIM, but I'm already approaching the word limit and so would need a word extension) In contrast, when Palestinian claims are discussed, they consistently reflect the language of the sources. I believe this demonstrates them misrepresenting sources, and distorting content to advance a particular POV - is this the sort of evidence you require? BilledMammal (talk) 12:09, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning NableezyStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by NableezyI can’t seriously believe I’m going to explain edits from 2023, but MOS:CLAIM isn’t a prohibition on using the word. Sources, such as the Associated Press, said of the Israeli claims that Shifa is Gaza’s largest and best-equipped hospital. Israel, without providing visual evidence, claims the facility also is used by Hamas for military purposes. Changing a sentence of Misplaced Pages using its own voice to present an unsupported claim by a combatant that sources have repeatedly said was lacking any evidence as fact and correctly saying that it was an Israeli claim is showing caution to only use the word where appropriate. The idea that Btselem was claiming something that no source has questioned is the equivalent of that is what is actually POV pushing. Given the low quality of the evidence here, if there is some specific diff that admins think I need to answer for, even if it’s from a year ago, let me know. But I’d advice them not to simply accept BilledMammals *claims* as they likewise fail even the slightest scrutiny. As far as move requests, I saw lots of requests for massacres in Israel that I saw no need to oppose calling massacre. I got involved in the ones I thought were an issue. But again, if there is something in this mishmash of diffs going back a year I should pay attention to please let me know. nableezy - 04:47, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000This has to be one of the weakest reports here for quite a while. In the third example of BM's "claim" list, Nableezy added a sentence "Hamas has repeatedly denied the claims of sexual abuse." which BM classified as "Added 'claim' to content related to an Israeli POV (Advances the Palestinian POV)". Note that Nableezy added the sentence immediately after a sentence noting allegations of sexual abuse by Hamas, with no mention that the allegations were denied. Turning to Nableezy's CNN source we read "Hamas has repeatedly denied allegations that its fighters committed sexual violence". So Nableezy's hanging offence was to balance the POV with a close paraphrase of how the source balanced it. In the next example, which includes "claim of Hamas fighters surrendering..." using "claim" rather than stating the surrendering as fact is in conformity with the NYT source, which explicitly says that it could not verify the account. Note also that Nableezy gave two additional sources that directly challenge the truth of the account. So this is a perfectly good (and, more importantly, accurate) use of "claim". Zero 11:55, 6 November 2024 (UTC) That's as far as I plan to look, but I propose that these are representative examples of this "evidence". There's no secret that every regular editor in the ARBPIA area has a POV. Nableezy and BilledMammal have one, and so do I. A report here should provide some evidence of wrongdoing, not just evidence of a preference for editing certain content. Zero 11:55, 6 November 2024 (UTC) "Alleging" someone did wrong and "claiming" someone did wrong have exactly the same meaning. Moreover, editors have every right to extract the factual content of sources without bringing the opinion content along with it. Even more so when our article already states the opinion in the previous sentence. Zero 13:45, 6 November 2024 (UTC) To editor ScottishFinnishRadish: "AE is too small scale to address the depth of allegations of this sort." — What depth are you talking about? This report is just one editor with a strong POV complaining that another editor doesn't share that POV. And BilledMammal's misleading RM statistics are at ARCA already, so why are they here again? Every single regular editor in every single contentious area will be in trouble if you pick their edits apart under a microscope. Zero 11:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by NadVolumMy reading of WP:CLAIM is that it should not be used if it is undue. I take that as meaning it should not be used unless there is good reaon for considering what was said was false. On that basis I believe it is quite correct to use the word in statements like 'Al-Jazeera reported that the claims of babies being beheaded and were killed en masse were false' and to remove it from statements like 'B'tselem claims that 2,038 were civilians' when changing to 'According to the Israeli human rights organization B'tselem, 2,038 were civilians'. I see very little to dispute in the changes. I can see a person with an 'Israeli POV' might wish things were different but that doesn't mean they break NPOV. NadVolum (talk) 15:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by Chess
In Nableezy's case, BilledMammal's table shows consistent opposition to the term "massacre", then a flip to saying that the term "massacre" is fine after a series of losses. From that point onwards, Nableezy only argues in favour of the term "massacre", until a loss at the Engineer's building RM forced Nableezy to re-evaluate their views. Nableezy uses the term "massacre" consistent with prior consensus but will only actively use that reasoning to benefit Palestinians. It's unrealistic to expect otherwise because we are volunteers, and we devote our limited time to what we are passionate about. This can create a double standard when something conflicts with unwritten consensus and the closer doesn't recognize that. Oftentimes this happens when actual POV-pushers flood specific articles. I would call the current system a failure of our existing guidelines. Nableezy, unlike the majority of people in this topic area, actually respects consensus and tries to create objective standards. A better way to utilize Nableezy's experience and credibility would be to collaborate on writing up an Israel-Palestine specific MOS for terms like "massacre" or "claim", and a central discussion board for the conflict. BilledMammal's skill at identifying examples of systemic bias could be more effectively used there. Because global consensus trumps local consensus, we could ban "massacre" across all articles in the recent war. Then, when an influence campaign tries to POV-push, we can ignore that campaign citing WP:NOTAVOTE. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 23:17, 6 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by ABHammadI've also noticed the same conduct from Nableezy. Sharing here an example I also provided on another Wiki page: When I pointed out that Samidoun is an unreliable source (after another editor used it on the article for Samir Kuntar), writing him that they are a terror organization according to multiple countries, Nableezy responded with, On two very odd consecutive edits, Nableezy also removed information on a British counter-terrorism investigation into Asa Winstanley, who is an associate editor of Electronic Intifada and removed that its Executive Director Ali Abunimah said Nasrallah gave his life to liberate Palestine . saying it is undue, but this standard of thinking was not applied by them on Jewish News Syndicate, where Nableezy restored the assertion of the newspaper promoting Islamophobic and anti-Palestinian ideas in Misplaced Pages voice even though it is not sourced. ABHammad (talk) 15:13, 7 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by Selfstudier@Valereee: Although I have said previously that content issues cannot entirely be ignored, I agree about the pile of complicated diffs issue. How about making better use of the Misplaced Pages:Template_index/User talk namespace#Multi-level templates, maybe make a new one for CPUSH, such that in order to bring a case to AE, several such warnings need to have been given (responses mandatory), with diffs (say two or three at a time). Then most of the work will have been done by the time it would get here.Selfstudier (talk) 16:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Nableezy
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Gianluigi02
Page blocked for a week by ScottishFinnishRadish. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 17:37, 10 November 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Gianluigi02
Engaged in edit-warring at November 2024 Amsterdam attack, violating WP:1RR and WP:3RR. Reverts include, but aren't limited to:
When asked to self-revert, instead promised to continue edit-warring.
Discussion concerning Gianluigi02Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Gianluigi02Statement by (username)Result concerning Gianluigi02
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Butterscotch Beluga
There is consensus among uninvolved admins that Butterscotch Beluga's editing does not qualify as gaming. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Butterscotch Beluga
Also made their account within a day of CoolAndUniqueUsername.
Butterscotch Beluga CoolAndUniqueUsername Discussion concerning Butterscotch BelugaStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Butterscotch BelugaI'll be honest, I didn't know this source was being discussed until I was checking sources for November 2024 Amsterdam attacks &, as I couldn't find the Jerusalem Post listed at perennial sources, I checked to see if there were discussion on it. I'll be clear that, no, I don't hold them in high regard as a source, but I did not think it'd be unreasonable for me to participate there. I guess I'm sorry for being a newer editor who wants to contribute to a topic I know about. In regards to the accusation of gaming, I understand in hindsight why it looks sketchy, so apologies for that. I've honestly been wanting to go through & remove deprecated/unreliable sources & would actually like to get back to doing that, but I've recently discovered that every minor edit I make in this topic becomes surprisingly exhausting & time consuming. I would like to note however that this is the second time Chess has accused (or implied in this case, if you want to be pedantic) an editor in that RFC of being a WP:SPA. I do understand this is a rather low-trust topic area (in a way, rightfully so), but I genuinely did not mean to rush towards extended confirmed. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 23:24, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning Butterscotch Beluga
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Nableezy
Withdrawn, with apologies to Nableezy and to everyone for the time wasted. I wasn't going to be the one to close this to make sure I took my licks, but with Nableezy's suggestion, I'm going and closing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Nableezy
Made another editor aware of the CTOP
I am making this report as an uninvolved administrator to elicit the opinions of other administrators about the contents of the diffs presented. I will be putting my thoughts in the administrator's section. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning NableezyStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by NableezyUm, the idea that any state has a right to exist is a contested topic in international law. Misplaced Pages does not present contested views as though they were uncontested facts. We have an article on the topic, right to exist, largely written by Buidhe. This is utterly surreal. See also Rosguill's statement. Barkeep49, nobody discusses a German or US right to exist, that simply is not a topic that anybody in academia discusses. Because it isnt asserted, basically ever. States exist by virtue of existing. There is no inherent right of a state to exist. People have a right to exist, states exist when they have the power to assert their existence. See for example one United Nations special rapporteur discussing this. Objecting to a user inserting a partisan talking point, sourced to a partisan newspaper (a newspaper for an international law topic!), meriting this reaction is absurd. I have no idea how anybody can fault me for thinking that SFR has been fishing for a way to sanction me at this point. This is unreal. nableezy - 19:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by SimonM223I think this is rather surreal that, at this point, we have three separate arbitration enforcement requests against one user who appears not to have violated any wikipedia policy. Regardless of the connotations of the specific example the idea that any state has a right to exist is not a universally accepted one. And, frankly, the context in which the statement was made is one of an absurd inclusion in which a source is claiming that a bromine coloring book with pictures of Palestinian journalists, Nelson Mandela and Edward Said in it is calling for the elimination of Israel simply for using the phrase "From the River to the Sea." I hope that no action is taken here. And perhaps we could go a day without another attempt to get Nableezy kicked off the island. Simonm223 (talk) 18:52, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by RosguillI agree that this is a surreal request, that appears to be motivated by a lack of familiarity with contemporary historical and philosophical literature. Outside of polemic declarations by nationalists of one side or the other in political discourse, historical literature typically challenges the idea that any state has an abstract right to exist. E.g. , , . Note that none of these are anarchist publications: setting aside the question of whether we *should* have states, historians and philosophers generally approach the states that they study as historical fact, not as moral propositions, and only study the question of a state's "right to exist" when a political conflict has explicitly called the issue to question in those specific terms. The discourse of handwringing over a state's right to exist is thus largely unique to protracted conflicts of self-determination, and is by far the most prominent with respect to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in particular. Nableezy is well within the bounds of academic discourse to note that a state's "right to exist" is not something that should be casually asserted in wikivoice. The fact that this assertion was only tangentially related to the content at issue, makes the purpose of this AE report even less clear. signed, Rosguill 19:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by LevivichI'd like to see SFR link three RS that say Israel has a right to exist. If the negation of that claim were WP:FRINGE, it should be trivially easy to do. Levivich (talk) 19:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by IvanvectorI'm not directly involved in this, I just came to see what absurdity resulted in there being three sections on Nableezy here. @Barkeep49: you linked to right to exist, but did you read it? The largest section in the article, #Israel/Palestine, describes in summary many of the historical arguments surrounding the question of Israel's right to exist, a question that has been debated since at least the end of the second world war, and indeed whether such a right exists at all for any state. I don't expect we are going to settle that debate on Misplaced Pages, but I do think that would be enough to reject outright Misplaced Pages taking an affirmative stance one way or the other in that longstanding debate. Or to put it another way, do we say in wikivoice that the United States or Germany have (or don't have) a right to exist? Or is this something that's only debated in the context of nationalist conflict? Ivanvector (/Edits) 19:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by IOHANNVSVERVSAt the top of this page there is the text "Please use this page only to:" and four reasons are listed. "To get input from other administrators" on something doesn't seem to be in line with any of those reasons. Content disgareements are also explicity said to belong at other fora, though the filer here has stated this report is "about the diffs above that say Misplaced Pages cannot presuppose Israel has a right to exist and that it is something that should not be put in wikivoice." And now admins appear to be discussing whether or not Israel has a right to exist, something which I believe is more of a propaganda/ideological point rather than an actual matter of international law. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC) (Edited significantly) 20:50, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Huldra3Countries exists -or not. That is a very different question to if it has a "right to exist". I don' think any country has the "right to exist", why should I? I grew up hearing "God gave Israel to the Jews" -but I have been an agnostic/atheist since my late teens (over half a century ago), and I no longer believe in any country's "God-given right to exist", how could I? If that's a bannable offence on Misplaced Pages, then you better ban me, too. And ban Noam Chomsky, who "has argued that no state has the right to exist, that the concept was invented in the 1970s" (to quote our Right to exist-article.) Or:
It is a question much debated, also in academic literature (see Rosguill refs), or just google "does Israel has a right to exist?" I don't think anyone has the right to ban this opinion, even if you disagree with it, (I certainly don't want to ban anyone because they think Israel has a God-given right to exist), Huldra (talk) 21:16, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by AndrevanEven the PLO recognizes Israel's right to exist. For some sources see, Morris, Benny (2009-04-28). One State, Two States: Resolving the Israel/Palestine Conflict. Yale University Press. ISBN 978-0-300-15604-1., Beinart, Peter (2012). The Crisis of Zionism. Melbourne Univ. Publishing. ISBN 978-0-522-86176-1., Carter, Jimmy (2010-02-18). We Can Have Peace in the Holy Land. Simon and Schuster. ISBN 978-1-84983-065-2., Gans, Chaim (2008-06-23). A Just Zionism: On the Morality of the Jewish State. Oxford University Press, USA. ISBN 978-0-19-534068-6. Andre🚐 22:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by BilledMammalSince it is being discussed, just contributing here to say that this edit was done to align our content with the source, which says I will add that I am very discomforted by the fact that some editors advocate for Jewish sources being classified as less reliable than non-Jewish sources on this topic. The position that Israeli sources are unreliable is debatable, but extending it to all Jewish sources, as some editors do or appear to do, comes far too close to the "dual loyalty" canard. BilledMammal (talk) 22:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by LokiTheLiarWhile I'm not totally uninvolved in the topic area, I'm uninvolved for this specific dispute and I frankly think the idea that this deserves to be at AE is completely ridiculous to the point where it hurts the credibility of both the other two sections here with Nableezy's name on them and SFR's credibility as an admin to boot. This is just so clearly bog-standard content dispute stuff that I can't even imagine why SFR thought it was reasonable to bring it here. Loki (talk) 00:06, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Silver serenWell, all three of the related sections on this page are ridiculous. The only POV pushing I see being brought up here is by ScottishFinnishRadish in making this embarrassing report. And Barkeep49 for even entertaining this. I'm ashamed for both of you right now. You're literally trying to use a content disagreement being rationally discussed as an argument for sanctioning. Even your statements below are just actively arguing the content dispute from your own POV and not as an actual AE issue. Just shameful. Silverseren 00:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by Zero0000This is ridiculous. Nableezy didn't say that Israel has no right to exist. Nableezy only wrote that Misplaced Pages shouldn't say so in wikivoice. Nableezy is correct and policy-conformant. We should not state in wikivoice that any state has a right to exist or not. For example, Misplaced Pages should not say in wikivoice that the USA has the right to exist either (will I be up on charges now?). Zero 01:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by DaveosaurusUser:ScottishFinnishRadish, once you have climbed down from the Reichstag and changed out of your Spider-Man outfit, while it may be an interesting discussion to have about whether any nation-state at all has a "right to exist", this is not the place for it. In fact there may not be a place for it on Wikpedia at all (Village Pump, maybe?). There is an administrators' noticeboard for discussion matters with admins. To start you thinking: does Palestine have an inherent right to exist? Does Western Sahara have an inherent right to exist? Does Scotland have an inherent right to exist? Did Yugoslavia have an inherent right to exist? Daveosaurus (talk) 05:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by ParabolistWill no one rid SFR of this troublesome priest? Parabolist (talk) 11:21, 13 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by TarnishedPathThe fact that there are three separate reports here on Nableezy is absurd. If the situation is really that bad this should be a ArbCom referral where all participants (including fillers and others commenting in the AE referrals) are parties. TarnishedPath 14:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Nableezy
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Southasianhistorian8
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Southasianhistorian8
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- GhostOfDanGurney (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Southasianhistorian8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:ARBIPA
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 21:37, November 12 Ignores WP:ONUS, edit warring in order to restore POV-pushing/WP:COATRACK content after that content had been removed by Nyttend.
- 02:11, November 14 Repeats the same WP:COATRACK behaviour at another article, just over 24hrs after Nyttend (a longstanding administrator) warned them about WP:COATRACK on their talk page.
- 08:49 November 14 Personal attack towards me on their userpage in response to sharing my concern about diff2 and agreeing with Nyttend, claims I'm
"piling on my t/p over a topic that does not concern you as a form of petty bullying/harassment and revenge."
(bolding mine; Nyttend was the only other user with a message on their talk page) - 10:05 November 14 Leaves a retaliatory message on my talk page, spurned by my reverting of their edit in diff2.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- 20:47, 2022 May 30 Indeff'd for abusing multiple accounts in the area of conflict as per Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/Suthasianhistorian8/Archive. Unblocked in December 2022 following a standard offer.
- 19:06, 2021 November 11 48hrs for edit warring in the area of conflict.
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 16:31, 2021 November 27 (see the system log linked to above).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
SAH continues to push their anti-Sikh POV into articles. Diff1 shows them adding repetitive content which was already covered in the article, not to mention that it has its own article. Repeating in such detail can only be interpreted as an attempt to draw a equivalency between Khalistan movement and the Canada-India row that is not supported by sources.
Diff2 shows them doing them same at Hardeep Singh Nijjar, using that article as a COATRACK to add content about a tangentially relevant person, content which belong in an article about that person, and attempting to further their POV that Nijjar was a "militant".
Diffs 3 and 4 showcase an unwillingness to self-reflect when conduct concerns are brought up, getting defensive with personal attacks, retaliatory warnings, and digging up of past dirt (which they already mentioned in the last AE thread about them). At no point do they acknowledge WP:COATRACK either in response to Nyttend or myself.
Contribution history shows they nearly-exclusively edit about Sikh topics, suppressing positive information and restoring negative information. Talk page history shows numerous NPOV warnings. At this point, we either have a LISTENing issue or a WP:NOTHERE issue. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 17:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- @103.251.217.66: I disagree with your evaluation of this as only a content dispute. I am reporting conduct; specifically violations of WP:EW (after the user made an agreement to never edit war as part of their SOCK unblock request), WP:NPOV, and WP:NPA. I am aware that AE does not and should never rule on content. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 01:14, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Southasianhistorian8
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Southasianhistorian8
LOL. Talk about desperation. Any outsider can take a look at my handling on Khalistan movement and see that I handled myself very responsibly as opposed to GhostofDanGurney who keeps lobbing personal attacks at editors he dislikes. I only made one revert, and when Nyttend posted on my t/p, I told him I would not revert further, and initiated a discussion on the t/p. The content I added was literally a direct result of the killing of Hardeep Singh Nijjar, a Khalistan activist, and the RCMP's allegations of India's operations against Khalistan activists, so clearly the event is relevant to the page at least to some degree and I'm extremely confident that editors at 3O or DRN will agree. The content there wasn't even authored by me, I copied it (with attribution) from the Canada-India diplomatic row. If I was so biased, wouldn't I be trying to suppress this information? I figured that precluding such a consequential event would be irresponsible and make it appear as though the page was skewed towards a pro-India narrative. What more do you want from me?
Now, in line with GhostofDanGurney hastily making edits to get one over me such as here-where he engaged in interpretation of a primary source to publicy discredit a figure, as confirmed by ScottishFinnishRadish on A/E, here where he falsely accused me of plagiarizing his workNow he falsely called Arsh Dalla a "low profile" individual thus wrongly invoking BLPCRIME; Ghost could have spent at least 10 minutes researching this guy or at least initiated a respectful discussion on the t/p instead of piling attacks on my t/p. Instead he made a rude condescending post on my t/p, threatening to escalate matters and stating that I need to confirm whether I understand Misplaced Pages's policies to him, as if he's my boss or something. He has yet to engage in the t/p of the article where I laid out sources and arguments, instead coming here to again win a content dispute illegitimately.
Now just days after his failed A/E request where he was also criticized for making personal attacks and making nonconstructive edits, he's again wasting everyone's tie over this drama. This ridiculous BATTLEGROUND behaviour should not be given carte-blanche here.Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 19:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- There are numerous sources including a very prominent Globe report which speaks about Dalla's potential connection to Nijjar and a recent CTV news report which asserts that Dalla was a former associate of Nijjar's. There are also a multitude of Indian sources which assert a connection between the two. Regarding BLPCRIME, we have a Misplaced Pages page for Lawrence Bishnoi who is an Indian gangster accused of directing political violence and has only gained notoriety through accusations of his involvement in crime. Arsh Dalla has gained a similar level of notoriety and media attention as Bishnoi over the past few years. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 19:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223, can we discuss Dalla's BLPCRIME status on the t/p of Hardeep Singh Nijjar. We already have a section on Nijjar in which potential connections between Nijjar and unconvinced individuals is laid out, such as with Mandeep Singh Dhaliwal. I'm happy to have a respectful conversation there. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 20:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- Again to everyone here, I'm perfectly content with having respectful discussions on an article talk page when others are respectful and I have used dispute resolution numerous times to resolve conflicts amicably. GhostofDanGurney however has made numerous personal attacks against me, made edits clearly intended to cause distress and annoyance as detailed in the first A/E, and is clearly intent on encumbering me as much as possible. Look at his t/p history, he constantly responds to warnings/other disagreements in such a hostile manner: saying things such as "Go fuck yourselves" or "be gone thot" (yes really) or "Actually, I'll let people see how much of a hypocrite you are for posting this fucking bullshit". He harassed another user on Twitter after being upset over a content dispute. He consistently made personal attacks against me in his edit summaries, and instead of having a respectful discussion, he's taken swipes at me at any possible opportunity. He alleges POV pushing on my part even though he's far more overt, brazen and disruptive to push his POV. And I'm being inflammatory? I'm the one being bullied here. The fact that Ghost hasn't been actioned yet for his personal attacks and battleground mentality makes me feel like I'm living in crazy-land. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 21:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- I'd also like to address the BLPCRIME tag surrounding Arsh Dalla + Simonm's claims that Misplaced Pages must not comment or write about accusations/charges laid against a unconvicted person. Simonm, on my talk page, alleged that in order to do so, one must first establish an unconvicted person's notability independent of any criminal accusations, and if that pre-existing condition exists, we can then write about any allegations.
- This is not true and I've asked Simonm to provide quotes from a Misplaced Pages policy page which states as such, which as of yet has not been provided.
- On the other hand, we've detailed charges and written about the charges laid against Derek Chauvin prior to his conviction- in the murder of George Floyd. Chauvin, as far as I know, did not attain any notability outside of his arrest.
- We included the suspect's name and charges laid against him here even though he's presumably innocent and has not been convicted. The suspect also did not attain any notability outside the accusations laid against him.
- Here we've detailed the suspect's criminal record prior to the arrest, even alleging that they have a dungeon in their basement. Again, no notability outside the arrest.
- So clearly, we establish someone is "high profile" (which in this case refers to the ability to allege their involvement in a crime/crimes) by first ensuring that there is a number of reliable, secondary sources which report their name and the accusations against them and then we
simply document what these sources say
- There are numerous sources and extensive media coverage which talk at length about Dalla dating back years; his potential involvement in crime, his media interviews in which he himself claimed to be behind murders, his absconding to Canada, and most recently his supposed involvement and arrest in connection to a shooting in Ontario etc.
- See various Indian news reports: , ,, , , + In March 2024, it was reported that the Indian government shared Dalla's coordinates to Canadian officials seeking his arrest
- This July 2024 Globe and Mail report talked at length about Dalla and his potential connection to Nijjar, it also claimed that Dalla (Gill) gave an interview to a journalist in which he claimed to have killed someone.
- This CTV report also speaks at length about his criminal activiites and India's allegations of his connection to Nijjar, and also claims that Dalla gave interviews to a prominent journalist, again claiming to have killed people
- This CTV news video also claims that Dalla was a former associate of Nijjar's.
- So when we have extensive media coverage surrounding Dalla going back at least since Jan 2023, claiming he's a low profile individual is simply absurd. Not to mention, according to Misplaced Pages's policy-
Persons who actively seek out media attention are not low-profile, regardless of whether or not they are notable.
Dalla has willingly and actively sought media attention by giving numerous interviews to journalists. He most certainly cannot be considered low profile. - My stance on the talk page of the Hardeep Singh Nijjar t/p was simply that we incorporate the Globe's and CTV's articles in which they claim that India alleges that Nijjar was associated with Dalla. Before this whole debacle, GhostofDanGurney explicitly agreed to incorporate the July 2024 report into the Nijjar Misplaced Pages page which contains similar content such as Nijjar's association with Jagtar Singh Tara and Mandeep Singh Dhaliwal—, yet conveniently, now has an issue with including similar content related to Arsh Dalla, even though it was also reported in the same Globe report. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 23:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- Again, @Simonm223, I've asked you multiple times to provide an explicit quote which states what you are alleging. I've literally provided an excerpt from a Misplaced Pages policy page, which you have not acknowledged or addressed.
- If Wiki policy states that anyone who seeks media attention cannot be low profile, and Dalla clearly did on multiple occasions, how is he then low profile?
- Provide an actual quote from a policy page, and put this whole thing to rest. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 23:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- Again to everyone here, I'm perfectly content with having respectful discussions on an article talk page when others are respectful and I have used dispute resolution numerous times to resolve conflicts amicably. GhostofDanGurney however has made numerous personal attacks against me, made edits clearly intended to cause distress and annoyance as detailed in the first A/E, and is clearly intent on encumbering me as much as possible. Look at his t/p history, he constantly responds to warnings/other disagreements in such a hostile manner: saying things such as "Go fuck yourselves" or "be gone thot" (yes really) or "Actually, I'll let people see how much of a hypocrite you are for posting this fucking bullshit". He harassed another user on Twitter after being upset over a content dispute. He consistently made personal attacks against me in his edit summaries, and instead of having a respectful discussion, he's taken swipes at me at any possible opportunity. He alleges POV pushing on my part even though he's far more overt, brazen and disruptive to push his POV. And I'm being inflammatory? I'm the one being bullied here. The fact that Ghost hasn't been actioned yet for his personal attacks and battleground mentality makes me feel like I'm living in crazy-land. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 21:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223, can we discuss Dalla's BLPCRIME status on the t/p of Hardeep Singh Nijjar. We already have a section on Nijjar in which potential connections between Nijjar and unconvinced individuals is laid out, such as with Mandeep Singh Dhaliwal. I'm happy to have a respectful conversation there. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 20:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (103.251.217.66 (talk))
- I think both needs to calm down. both should talk on the article talk page before making changes to the article and stop reverting changes.
- I see this is only as content dispute... I don't think Southasianhistorian8 is attacking you op.. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:GhostOfDanGurney&diff=prev&oldid=1255952101 you should assume good faith.. and you are also trying gatekeep article it seems to me... https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Canada%E2%80%93India_diplomatic_row#NPOV
Statement by Simonm223
I would concur that both editors should probably both get some space from each other for a few days. A short-duration 2-way iBan might be a reasonable remedy here. Most of the edits in contention from both editors don't seem disruptive although both could be a bit more careful with sourcing to avoid primary sources and to ensure that secondary sources are included in major edits. The only point of contention I'd take with either's position (as I don't think either is actually entirely wrong so much as operating at cross-purposes) surrounds the interpretation of WP:BLPCRIME. Arsh Dalla is not a public figure per the definition laid out by WP:PUBLICFIGURE because his notoriety is entirely from the circumstances of him having been accused of a crime. As such the guidance, editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed or is accused of having committed a crime, unless a conviction has been secured for that crime
very much applies here. Simonm223 (talk) 19:46, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Southasianhistorian8 there is a key difference between Bishnoi and Dalla. Bishnoi stood trial and was convicted. My understanding is that Canada has declined to arrest and extradite Dalla. As such, since he is a free person and considered innocent both under Canadian law and by Misplaced Pages's standards, and since all the media coverage around him is about whether he did any criminal acts, we should not be commenting on him on Misplaced Pages. I hope this clarifies WP:BLPCRIME for you. Simonm223 (talk) 20:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- Honestly my attempt to provide some friendly help regarding the BLPCRIME issue has left me a bit more concerned about WP:IDHT than I was at the outset. Especially since WP:OSE statements do not override BLP policy. Simonm223 (talk) 23:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Swatjester
Regardless of which side is correct on the merits of the arguments, it does *not* help SAH's case that they've presented their opposition to Ghost of Dan Gurney in an uncivil and excessively inflammatory manner. "he clearly has an extreme vendetta against and is desperate to hound me off this page" fails to assume good faith. So does accusing them of having "a long history of suppressing any critical information on the page... saw this opportunity and rushed to try to hound me further." Vaguely handwaving at a previous report does not suffice to make that anything less than an aspersion. Saying "I find it reprehensible that this bullying behaviour has carte-blanche on Misplaced Pages" is both uncivil, inflammatory, and presumes that the behavior is 1) bullying, and 2) has "carte-blanche" despite this AE request existing and there having been discussion about it in multiple talk page forums already. Regardless of how this case gets decided, I'd admonish SAH to find a more constructive, less inflammatory way of expressing their positions. I think all involved would do well to be reminded that in a contentious topic area you need to be on your best behavior. ⇒SWATJester 21:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Southasianhistorian8
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.