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**:Reading comprehension skills and writing skills in foreign languages are very frequently not at the same level, it is extremely plausible that someone will be able to understand whether the AI output is what they want to express without having been able to write it themselves directly. ] (]) 11:41, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
**:Reading comprehension skills and writing skills in foreign languages are very frequently not at the same level, it is extremely plausible that someone will be able to understand whether the AI output is what they want to express without having been able to write it themselves directly. ] (]) 11:41, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
**::That is very true. For example I can read and speak Polish pretty fluently, and do so every day, but I would not trust myself to be able to write to a discussion on Polish Misplaced Pages without some help, whether human or artificial. But I also wouldn't ''want'' to, because I can't write the language well enough to be able to edit articles. I think the English Misplaced Pages has many more editors who can't write the language well than others because it is both the largest one and the one written in the language that much of the world uses for business and higher education. We may wish that people would concentrate on other-language Wikipedias but most editors want their work to be read by as many people as possible. ] (]) 12:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
**::That is very true. For example I can read and speak Polish pretty fluently, and do so every day, but I would not trust myself to be able to write to a discussion on Polish Misplaced Pages without some help, whether human or artificial. But I also wouldn't ''want'' to, because I can't write the language well enough to be able to edit articles. I think the English Misplaced Pages has many more editors who can't write the language well than others because it is both the largest one and the one written in the language that much of the world uses for business and higher education. We may wish that people would concentrate on other-language Wikipedias but most editors want their work to be read by as many people as possible. ] (]) 12:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
**:::There is a high degree of racism from Anglos evident throughout this discussion. English is a universal language my friends, and not the property of colonial imperialists. ] <span
**:::{{rpa}} ] <span
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* '''Support''', more or less. There are times when an LLM can help with paraphrasing or translation, but it is far too prone to hallucination to be trusted for any sort of project discussion. There is also the issue of wasting editor time dealing with arguments and false information created by an LLM. The example {{u|Selfstudier}} links to above is a great example. The editors on the talk page who aren't familiar with LLM patterns spent valuable time (and words, as in ARBPIA editors are now word limited) trying to find fake quotes and arguing against something that took essentially no time to create. I also had to spend a chunk of time checking the sources, cleaning up the discussion, and warning the editor. Forcing editors to spend valuable time arguing with a machine that doesn't actually comprehend what it's arguing is a no-go for me. As for the detection, for now it's fairly obvious to anyone who is fairly familiar with using an LLM when something is LLM generated. The detection tools available online are basically hot garbage. ] (]) 12:55, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
* '''Support''', more or less. There are times when an LLM can help with paraphrasing or translation, but it is far too prone to hallucination to be trusted for any sort of project discussion. There is also the issue of wasting editor time dealing with arguments and false information created by an LLM. The example {{u|Selfstudier}} links to above is a great example. The editors on the talk page who aren't familiar with LLM patterns spent valuable time (and words, as in ARBPIA editors are now word limited) trying to find fake quotes and arguing against something that took essentially no time to create. I also had to spend a chunk of time checking the sources, cleaning up the discussion, and warning the editor. Forcing editors to spend valuable time arguing with a machine that doesn't actually comprehend what it's arguing is a no-go for me. As for the detection, for now it's fairly obvious to anyone who is fairly familiar with using an LLM when something is LLM generated. The detection tools available online are basically hot garbage. ] (]) 12:55, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
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By my read of this conversation, there is a consensus that portals are in fact part of the encyclopdia. I don't see a strong consensus on the matter of redirects to them, valid arguments were made all around, so we'll have to just keep muddling through on that point. A narrower discussion specifically about individual dates redirecting to current events portals could possibly yield a different result if there is any appetite for doing that in the future. Just Step Sideways03:52, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
16 August 2006 points to the current events portal as a result of this discussion. However, date redirects will continue to come up at RfD, some some wider community discussion and input is helpful on whether or not the current events portal is an appropriate target for mainspace redirects. See also: this ongoing discussion for some context.
The second question is easy: Yes, portals are part of the encyclopaedia. As to the first question, portals are reader-facing content and so I see no reason why they wouldn't be appropriate targets for mainspace redirects, given that uncontroversially target mainspace redirects to reader-facing templates and categories when they are the best target. Whether the port is the best target for a given date will depend on the specific date but in general the portal should always be an option to consider. Thryduulf (talk) 01:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
I agree with this. The portal is definitely not always the best option and it has its limitations, but, as I wrote at WP:RDATE it should be considered and assessed along with mainspace articles. Cremastra (u — c) 01:44, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
If a namespace doesn't have the same standards as mainspace, then the reader shouldn't be redirected there while possibly not realizing they are now outside of mainspace. Yes, there is more content at Portal:Current events/August 2006 than at 2006#August, but the reader is now facing a decades-old page with no quality control, where links to Breitbart are misleadingly labeled as (AP). Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 00:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
Portal does have the same standards as mainspace. That a portal is not up to those standards is no different to an article being in bad shape - fix it. Thryduulf (talk) 00:54, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
No, because they are not articles. Two things can be held to the same standard without being the same thing. Criterion P1 previously allowed that (indirectly) but it was repealed in 2023 due to lack of use. Thryduulf (talk) 19:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
Then they aren't held to the same standards... More in general, no, they obviously aren't held to the same standards, e.g. a portal page doesn't have to be a notable topic but may be purely decorative or (as is the case with the date pages) be a list of mainly non-notable things, failing WP:NOTNEWS and WP:LISTN. That some standards are the same (BLP, copyvio, ...) can also be said for e.g. user talk pages, and we don't redirect to these pages either. Fram (talk) 20:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
We don't redirect to user talk pages because they aren't reader-facing, so that's irrelevant. We don't hold reader-facing templates and categories to article content policies (because they aren't articles) but we do redirect to them. Don't conflate quality standards with inclusion policies, they are not the same thing. Thryduulf (talk) 21:15, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
I wasn´t aware that the standards we were talking about were solely quality standards, whatever these may be, and not content standards, sourcing standards, ... I´m sadly not amazed that you consider these irrelevant when deciding what to present to our readers. Fram (talk) 21:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
In theory, I think portals should be held to the same CSD criteria as articles. But of course the A criteria actually only apply to articles. Cremastra (u — c) 22:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
There's a lot of random junk in portalspace, but yes, it is part of the encyclopedia. Just like categories and templates, portals are reader-facing content. C F A💬
I didn't really have super strong opinions on portals until seeing this one link to Breitbart, twice, in a misleading way. This is not okay. I agree with Fram that clearly Portals are not being held up to the same standards as regular articles and it might be a bad idea to redirect readers to them. Toadspike23:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
I saw this on CENT, and I am confused by the question. Portal:Current events/2006 August 16 is very different from something like Portal:Belgium, and it doesn't make sense to pretend they are the same to establish policy. And what does "part of the encyclopedia" even mean? "Interpreting a confusing phrase" is a terrible way to decide redirect targets. For the specific question of "Should dates redirect to the Current Events portal rather than to a page like August 2006 ... I don't know. I don't see a compelling reason why they can't, nor a compelling reason why they should. Walsh90210 (talk) 15:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Hey, that's a nice Portal! Thank you for restoring my faith in portals. Clicking on "Random Portal" took me to Portal:Trees, which is also pretty nice. My opinion is now that yes, portals can be good, but it seems to me that we currently have no Ps and Gs to apply to their content or measure their quality, no consensus about how to direct readers to them, and a very checkered and controversial history of deletion. I really dunno what to do about them. Toadspike16:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
No, we should not redirect dates to the current events portal subpages. It's a cross-namespace redirect that takes readers from somewhere they expect to be (an encyclopedia article on the topic "16 August 2006") to somewhere they don't expect to be (a navigational aid(?) that highlights some things that happened that day). I'm not 100% sure what the current events portal subpages are for, but they're not meant to stand in as pseudo-articles in places we lack real articles. Ajpolino (talk) 22:04, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Cross-namespace redirects in and of themselves are not a problem. They only cause issues when they take someone expecting reader-facing content to "backroom" content (e.g. project space). Both article and portals are reader-facing content, so this is not an issue. Thryduulf (talk) 22:17, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Is there another case where we link a reader from an article to a non-article without clearly denoting it? E.g. I have no problem with the {{Portal}} template folks often use in the See also section. Ajpolino (talk) 01:12, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
There are lots of redirects to templates and categories. Many navigation templates link to other navigation templates. Thryduulf (talk) 08:12, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
Any examples of these lots of mainspace pages which are redirects to templates? 08:42, 9 November 2024 (UTC) Fram (talk) 08:42, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
Thanks. Okay, Citeweb is a bad example, not something readers look for but something editors look for. The other 2 are among the 6 existing reader facing redirects to templates (from Category:Redirects to template namespace, the only ones which are from mainspace and not editor-related like the cite templates). Not quite the "lots" you seemed to be suggesting throughout this discussion, but extremely rare outliers which should probably all be RfD'ed. Fram (talk) 11:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
Yes, the current events portals are valid redirect targets for dates and preferred in this case of the best article redirect for a specific date being the month section of an article on an entire year. I agree with Fram that portals are not held to the same standards as articles, but I disagree with Ajpolino's stance that a cross-namespace redirect is so disruptive that they are prohibited in all cases, given that WP:Portal says "portals are meant primarily for readers." ViridianPenguin 🐧 ( 💬 ) 23:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Commenting strictly on the "are portals part of the encyclopedia" question, yes it is. Unfortunately there was one extremely loud, disruptive voice who kept making portals less useful and suffocating any discussions that would make it more beneficial to readers. Plenty of willing portal contributors, including myself, left this space and readers are still reaping the seeds of what that disruptive user planted even after they have been ArbCom banned over a year ago. So it may given some people an illusion that portals aren't doing much towards the encyclopedic goal, because the current status is handicapped by its history. I'm reserving my views on the redirect part of the discussion. OhanaUnited07:29, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
Not, portals are not held to the standards of articles, and if something for whatever reason shouldn't be or can't be an enwiki article, this shouldn't be circumvented by having it in portalspace. Either these date pages are acceptable, and then they should be in mainspace. Or they are not what we want as articles, and then we shouldn't present them to our readers anyway. Fram (talk) 11:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
These current events pages differ from articles in many respects, but the referencing standards are similar. Whether they happen to be prefixed by "Portal:" or not is not reflective of their quality. J947 ‡ 23:18, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
The current events portal example listed seems encyclopedic enough, in that apart from some formatting differences it might as well be a list article, but I've seen other portals that have editor-facing content that is more dubiously appropriate for mainspace. Consider, for example, Portal:Schools § Wikiprojects (capitalization ) and Portal:Schools § Things you can do, and the similar modules at many other portals. Sdkb18:27, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
Yes per J947, especially given that the current event portals function like an encyclopedic list for the given date. --Tavix16:46, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Yes, speaking as a recognized portalista, portals have not yet been excised from the pedia. In this case, User:J947 makes the essential point. I'm not convinced that even incomplete, out-of-date portals are any less encyclopedic than the 2 million or so Misplaced Pages articles nobody bothered to edit last year. BusterD (talk) 14:53, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
Portals are not part of the encylopedia as we understand encyclopedias: sources of information. They serve as navigation within an encylopedia. We would not see a Portal as the final delivery of information, any more than we would see a contents page, index, blurb, or advert as the final information page. These are all ancillary. People mostly land on a Misplaced Pages article page without a Portal. I have used Misplaced Pages for nearly twenty years without ever needing a Portal to direct me to where I want to go, and I would assume this is true for the majority of people. Redirects are designed as a signpost, and we frown upon a signpost simply pointing to another signpost. People would generally only arrive at a Portal if directed there from a link that should more helpfully point to the appropriate article. The Belgium Portal is mentioned above as a good Portal. If we go to the Belgium article and scroll down, there is a link to the Belgium Portal. But the Portal mainly provides us with a digest of the Belgium article, including a link back to the Belgium article, which itself contains more links to Belgium related articles than the Belgium Portal. Huh? Seriously? Why are we taking readers away from a sublime source, rich with information and links, to an inferior source? There is nothing on the Belgium Portal that is not available on the Belgium article page - including links to news. But there is much on the Belgian article page that is not on the Belgium Portal page. My suggestion is that ALL links to portals such as the Belgium Portal should instead go to the main article page. Why are we redirecting people to a redirect page when we can send them to the main article on the topic? Portals are a waste of our time and resources, and are a misdirect for readers. SilkTork (talk) 22:33, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
@SilkTork Your argument breaks down as soon as you realise that disambiguation pages and set indexes exist and that redirects to those pages are extremely common and uncontroversial. We also redirect people to outlines, broad concept articles and overviews. What is the "main article page" for a date? In all but a few exceptional cases there isn't a single article but multiple, and so just as if they had searched Mercury, Bitter ash or Stuffed flatbread we present them with a menu of content that is relevant to their search term and let them choose what it is they want to read about. Thryduulf (talk) 22:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
See my answer above. I don't see the point in duplicating signposts. We have Belgium, so we don't need Portal:Belgium; and we have 2006#August so we don't need Portal:Current events/2006 August 16. Signposts are not part of the encyclopedia, but they are navigational aids which lead us to further information. However, we have built into every article multiple signposts to further information. We don't need to have duplicate signposts outside of mainspace to which people are directed away from mainspace to consult. It is a waste of our time and resources, and a misdirection for readers. Internal links are an elegant way of signposting to further information. Navigational templates are a little clunky, but are useful. Portals take readers away from the encyclopedia, and are a pointless timesink for both editors and readers. SilkTork (talk) 23:02, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
Portals are just as much part of the encyclopaedia as set indexes and navigational templates. Portal:Belgium and Belgium fulfil very different roles in the encyclopaedia, neither is a duplicate of the other. Thryduulf (talk) 23:10, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Issues with antiquated guideline for WP:NBAND that essentially cause run of the mill non-notable items to be kept
5.) Has released two or more albums on a major record label or on one of the more important indie labels (i.e., an independent label with a history of more than a few years, and with a roster of performers, many of whom are independently notable).
6.) Is an ensemble that contains two or more independently notable musicians, or is a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles. This should be adapted appropriately for musical genre; for example, having performed two lead roles at major opera houses. Note that this criterion needs to be interpreted with caution, as there have been instances where this criterion was cited in a circular manner to create a self-fulfilling notability loop (e.g., musicians who were "notable" only for having been in two bands, of which one or both were "notable" only because those musicians had been in them.)
These appear to have been put together by a very small number of editors over a decade ago and hasn't seen much change since then and I feel it's much more lenient than just about anything else. This SNG defines a "label" that has been around for over "a few years" that has a roster of performers as "important". So, any group of people who have released two albums through ANY verifiable label that has exited for more than a few year can end up being kept and this isn't exactly in line with GNG. I believe a discussion needs to be held in order to bring it to GNG expectations of now.
Especially given how broadly the various criteria have been "interpreted" in deletion discussions, the best way to go about it is just to deprecate the whole thing. Rely on the GNG for band notability, and if that results in a heap of articles on ephemeral outfits, garage bands and local acts vanishing, huzzah. Ravenswing 09:07, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
The SNG isn't workable in the age of digital distribution. It's very easy to create "an independent label with a history of more than a few years". If someone wants to suggest a way to reform the SNG, I am open to solutions. But deprecation is a simple alternative if we can't. The GNG is always a good standard because it guarantees we have quality sources to write an article. Shooterwalker (talk) 14:22, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
I was active in AfD discussions when NBAND was pretty new, and it was useful for dealing with a flood of articles about garage bands and such, but I think our standards in general have tightened up since then, and I agree it is time to review it. There is the possibility, however, that revising NBAND may require as much discussion as revising NSPORT did. Donald Albury17:49, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
I guess the underlying question is: Is there actual harm in having a permastub about a band that proves to be borderline in GNG terms? Consider this:
"Alice and Bob are a musical duo in the science fiction genre. They released their first album, Foo, in 2019 and their second, Bar, in 2020. Both albums were released by Record Label. They are primarily known for singing during a minor event."
I'm asking this because I think that the nature of sources has changed, particularly for pop culture, since NBAND and the GNG were written. We now have subjects that get "attention from the world at large", but which aren't the Right™ kind of sources and, while these Wrong™ sources definitely provide "attention", some of that attention might not provide biographical information (which means we're looking at a short article).
For example, instead of getting attention in the arts section of a daily newspaper, they're getting attention from Anthony Fantano on YouTube. He's an important music critic, but I suspect that our knee-jerk reaction is "Pffft, just some YouTuber, totally unreliable". Consequently, we might rate a band that we theoretically intend to include ("attention from the world at large") as not meeting the GNG (because the whole field relies on the Wrong™ style of sources). WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:02, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
Keep in mind that like most other notability guidelines, it is a presumed assumption that a topic is notable if it meets these criteria. If you do an exhaustive Before and demonstrate there is no significant coverage beyond the sourcing to satisfy there criteria, the article should still be deleted. None of the SNGs are geared towards preventing this type of challenge. — Masem (t) 19:30, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
If we had to yield to presumptive notability about some random band because it released two albums with Backyard Trampoline Recordings established few years ago and had to do exhaustive search to disprove notability, we're getting setup for a situation where removal is 10x more challenging than article creation. So.. I see a great value in scrapping NBAND 5, and 6. Graywalls (talk) 00:47, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
Welcome to WP:SNGs. As Masem said, they're supposed to be a rough idea of gauging notability before exhaustively searching for sources. But pretty much all of them have ended up being used as means to keep articles about trivial or run-of-the-mill subjects. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:37, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
Graywalls listed two criteria but the main discussion seems to be about the 1st (#5). I agree with Graywalls on that. With the evolution of the industry, the label criteria is no longer a useful indicator as it once was and IMO #5 should be removed or modified. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:13, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
I've noticed that as well. I think #6 has some value still, while #5 is like saying an author who has published two or more books by a major publishing house is presumed notable. Way too low a bar without requiring some level of reception of those albums/books. (WP:NAUTHOR doesn't have that 2-book criteria, of course, just seems like parallel benchmarks.) Schazjmd(talk)13:25, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
On the other hand, in this case, I suspect that an artist that "has released two or more albums on a major record label or on one of the more important indie labels" will in 99% of cases have enough coverage to clear the GNG bar. I'd like to see an example of one that doesn't. Black Kite (talk)13:29, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
The definition of important as said in #5 is "history of more than a few years, and with a roster of performers, many of whom are independently notable". This would mean that a garage band is notable, because they've released two CD-R albums on Rotten Peach Recordings which has been around for 3 1/2 years, has a roster of performers and some of whom have a Misplaced Pages page on them. Often time "notable" is determined by the presence of a stand alone Misplaced Pages page. When you look at the page, many band member pages are hopelessly non-notable, but removal takes an AfD. So a simple deletion can become a time consuming multi-step AfD. Graywalls (talk) 19:18, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
Not opining on that band's notability, but Metal Blade is a famous independent label that has existed for 42 years, has released material by very high-profile bands, and is distributed by Sony - it's not some one-person imprint operating out of their garage. Black Kite (talk)11:28, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
I concur regarding that particular example. Metal Blade is a big label, and not surprisingly notability was quickly demonstrated in the deletion discussion through citing reliable source coverage. And that's how #5 should work - artist is on a significant label, which suggests coverage exists. And then coverage is found.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 12:08, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
The elephant in the room here is that entertainment journalism is in crisis mode right now, publications are operating on skeleton crews, and the range of coverage has narrowed dramatically. I encourage everyone taking part in this discussion to read the article I linked, there are a lot of assumptions being made about the way things work that aren't true. Gnomingstuff (talk) 20:30, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
One suggestion I would add is to make these two criteria apply only to bands before a specific year, that year being where physical releases still dominated over digital sales. I don't know the exact year but I am thinking it's like around 2000 to 2010. There may still be older groups during the time of physical releases that don't yet have articles that would fall into one of these criteria. Masem (t) 20:02, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
As someone who's had WP:DSMUSIC watchlisted for most of their editing history, and who tends towards deletion at that, I actually don't see much of a problem with these criterions. It certainly seems true that the majority of musicians who are signed to a label or a member of multiple bands with two other musicians who meet WP:GNG themselves meet GNG. I do think it is sometimes justified to accept less-than-GNG sourcing in articles where a SNG is met (see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/John LeCompt for this as it applies to c6 specifically) and more importantly, NMUSIC contains language that allows deleting articles even where it is technically met (see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Rouzbeh Rafie for an extended argument about that. Mach6123:29, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
I've understood these criterion to be supplementing GNG, that is, that if a band or individual artist meets one or more of these criterion, they *likely* are notable. However, in the past when I was a younger and less experienced editor, I think I did understand these as being additions or alternatives to GNG. So I think that should be clarified. This has come up on the deletion discussion for Jayson Sherlock. He is a member or former member of several very notable bands, and for that reason I presumed that he would easily have independent coverage about him specifically. However, to my surprise, there's only one interview of him in a reliable source that would provide notability (there's some interviews on personal blogs or minor sites that wouldn't be RS except for him making statements about himself). But at least one editor has used the above criterion to argue that the article should be kept.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 12:20, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Just as an aside, interviews do not contribute to GNG unless they include secondary independent SIGCOV (such as a substantial background introduction by the interviewer). JoelleJay (talk) 15:39, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
That's how I see most SNGs (and the outliers ought to follow their lead). At the very least, we can clarify that NBAND is meant as an indicator for the GNG, and not a substitute. Shooterwalker (talk) 02:04, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
As someone who thought the old NSPORTS was wildly overinclusive and needed cleanup... these NBAND guidelines don't seem that bad? If two plainly notable musicians were discovered to have done some obscure team-up in the 1970s, that does indeed seem to be a notable topic and useful to have linked somewhere, even if there isn't tons of info on this collaboration. It's worth mentioning because minor subtopics are often merged to the overarching topic (e.g. songs to the album), but there may not be a clear merge location for this if both parties were equal contributors, and a short separate article is an acceptable compromise. Similarly, the complaint about #5 seems to be about just how "indie" the hypothetical label is, but this seems like a solvable problem. If a band fails GNG, that implies that either their two albums really were from a very obscure indie outfit and thus also fail NBAND, or else that we have some sort of non-English sources issue where we may consider keeping on WP:CSB grounds (i.e. that sources probably do exist to pass GNG, but they're difficult to find, and we can trust they exist because this was a major and notable label releasing the band's work). About the only suggestion I can offer is that the comment in 6 about avoiding circular notability could probably be phrased in the sense of GNG, i.e. that the two notable musicians need to both meet GNG and then this will create a new, safe NBAND notability for their collaboration. SnowFire (talk) 17:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
Agreed with deprecation; "Rely on the GNG for band notability" is the correct answer. And is the correct answer for many other things about which we have SNGs that attempt to be alternatives to GNG. Perhaps the only justifiable one is WP:NACADEMIC, because special considerations apply in that sphere (academics and other journal-publishing researchers are generally unknown the public and the public-facing media coverage like newspapers but may have major impacts in particular fields and on the world; what determines their influence level is primilar the frequency of citation of their work by other academics). No such special considerations apply with regard to bands or most other categories. We have some SNGs that are helpful because they are written to comply with GNG, to explain predictively what is most likely or unlikely to pass a GNG test at ANI, rather than trying to be an end-run around GNG. If we actually needed an SNG for bands and musicians, then the current SNG for them could be replaced by something like that. However, we don't actually need an SNG for bands and musicians.
PS: The ideas in the current NBAND SNG are daft. Lots of musical acts have multiple albums (i.e. tracks released at the same time under a grouping title) and lots of indie labels (which may just be some dude in his bedroom) exist with multiple acts, some of them nominally notable , but that doesn't actually make every band on that notional label (nor the label itself) enclopedia-worthy. Some of these are farcically obscure acts . This is not 1977; you do not need a vinyl pressing plant to be a music label. You just need to figure out how to fill in a web form at Bandcamp and Spotify, and have enough of a clue about how the present music industry works (often just within a narrow subculture) that you can convince some acts (probably your friends in the same scene) that you can help them if they agree to be on your roster. PPS: A side issue is that "albums" isn't a good metric anyway, since several genres are not album-driven at all, and the entire notion of albums is being increasingly questioned in the era of on-demand music. — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 21:59, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
See WP:NPLACE, which presumes populated legally recognized places are notable. So, all it takes is prove the legal recognition and presence of people and it's assumed to be notable, unless refuted.
A legally recognized city is presumed, but not guaranteed notable. If it doesn't meet GNG, then the presumed notability can be refuted. It does essentially "override" GNG though a short cut, but is subject to removal by presenting failure to meet GNG.
Such presumption is not present for most things. For example, simply quoting a local paper about a gas station opening up and operating demonstrates existence of that gas station, but there's no presumed notability for businesses.
NBAND 5 and 6 qualifies bands and albums into Misplaced Pages far easier than they should and they stand as a burden to article deletion due to presumed notability under tenuously defined importance, such as having released two albums through an important indie label Four Legged Octopus, which is "important" because the MailBox Etc based label has been around for five years and has a roster. Graywalls (talk) 16:55, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
Not speaking to this issue directly, but the trend in subject specific guidelines, IMHO, has been to reduce the influence of SNGs relative to GNG, not override. When we started these projects 20 years ago, almost every article was low hanging fruit, almost bound to be found notable eventually. As an example, Military History Wikiproject adopted and modified WP:SOLDIER, a set of specific and non-subjective criteria which if met gave an indication of presumption of reliable sources being found somewhere eventually. This was intended to screen out a lot of "dead veteran I know" articles, not become the floor for inclusion. When it finally came up for discussion it was made clear SOLDIER was just a project thing and wasn't itself an approved SNG. It was quickly decommissioned, but SOLDIER criteria was for many years a frequently mentioned keep argument at AfD. As another example, WP:SPORTSPERSON is another project related shorthand (but consensus-approved SNG), which made it more difficult to create and keep articles about athletes without at least one source with significant coverage, which still seems a low bar indeed. IMHO the original intent of such SNGs was to screen article candidates, but as the pedia grew, we started using SNGs to keep them. Adjusting SNGs to meet the modern usage era seems the practical and accepted path. The medical SNGs are still used as exclusionary, and for the best reasons. BusterD (talk) 15:21, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
IMHO the original intent of such SNGs was to screen article candidates, but as the pedia grew, we started using SNGs to keep them. As someone who joined 10 years in, this seems to have been the trend.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:20, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
Agreed, and this makes a lot more sense to me. I haven’t paid much attention to SNGs till recent years, so it has been my impression that they are applied as supplemental options towards keeps and creates. The only one that I even think of as exclusionary is WP:NEVENT, although that’s got its own difficulties inherent.
Blind enforcement of 1RR/3RR does not serve the project. The question should not be whether one violated the rule, but whether they violated the rule in a way that does not benefit the article. If there is no objection to the violation, we can reasonably assume that they are benefiting the article, or at least causing no harm. The decision should be left in the hands of other editors. Could this be used as a weapon? Would there be editors who claim harm where none exists? Certainly, but that's preferable to what we have now.
The problem, no doubt familiar to editors reading this, is that there are often not enough "good" editors around to protect an article from "bad" editors (malicious or merely inexperienced) while staying within 1RR/3RR. There is no restriction on the number of BOLD edits by a given editor, or on the number of editors performing BOLD edits. ―Mandruss☎00:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
1RR in contentious areas should be fully maintained, with no exceptions. Otherwise, edit wars will quickly develop. GoodDay (talk) 00:11, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
If someone is repeatedly reverting reverts, then there is objection to the violation by definition. That's what edit warring is. If someone is making the same BOLD edit that needs to be reverted multiple times, then they are also edit warring. There are already exceptions with these rules for patent nonsense or obvious vandalism. If there's routine disruption, then it only makes the problem worse to revert over and over instead of taking it to WP:RFPP. If you feel the need to make more than one or two reverts in a content dispute, then it's time to either consider other options or step away from the article. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:31, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
It's not about edit warring or re-reverts; the problem exists without a single re-revert. Editor A does ten BOLD edits, five of which are detrimental to the article because they are too inexperienced (this stuff takes years to master, so that's far from uncommon). Editors B, C, D, and E contribute an additional twenty detrimental edits (along with any number of good ones, that number being irrelevant for our purposes here). Meanwhile, competent editors F, G, and H are limited to a total of nine reverts, leaving 21 detrimental edits in the article. I say F, G, and H should be allowed to revert until someone claims they are doing harm. ―Mandruss☎02:04, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
Where are you seeing thirty detrimental edits to an article in every day? Why isn't this article protected? Why aren't editors F, G, and H starting a discussion? Why are they reverting Editor A's edits individually instead of rolling them back? Why is it so urgent that these edits need to be reverted right this moment? Even on the off chance that they encounter such an article that exists, F, G, and H would not need to engage in tag-team reverting (which is still edit warring) if they knew what they were doing. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:07, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
You are welcome to reduce the numbers as you please; the problem exists regardless. The article is protected, even with ECP, and there is no shortage of registered editors who have 30 days and 500 edits and still have years to go before they are editing with any reasonable level of competence. Some never reach that point. Why aren't editors F, G, and H starting a discussion? Seriously? Why are they reverting Editor A's edits individually instead of rolling them back? Because (1) they may not have the rollback right, and the rollback right should not be required to function as an editor, (2) they would be rolling back five good edits, and (3) it's impossible if Editor A's edits are interleaved with those of any other editor(s). Why is it so urgent that these edits need to be reverted right this moment? Because (particularly in large and very active articles) the bad edits can easily be missed if not caught immediately. Then they stay in the article for some unknown amount of time until noticed by a competent editor and corrected with a BOLD edit. Could be months or even years. Is that good for the article? ―Mandruss☎02:27, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
Could you give an example or two where this has caused a problem? And I note that you have answered the two most important questions inadequately: if an article is subject to edit-warring it should be fully protected, and you dismissed "Why aren't editors F, G, and H starting a discussion?" with "Seriously?". Yes, of course it's a serious question. Starting a discussion is the best way of defusing an edit war. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
"Seriously?", while counter to the WP:DR policy, might be an honest response. I often get page protection or block requests, where my first response is often "where's the discussion?" —Bagumba (talk) 10:02, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
Unless Mandruss is extremely lazy, for which I have no evidence, I don't see how that response can be honest. It only takes a few seconds to start a discussion, no longer than it took to start this one, and the person who starts it wins some extra points. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:08, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
extremely lazy, for which I have no evidence Thank you! I have my share of faults and shortcomings, but I don't think extreme laziness is one of them. So there should be new discussions for each of the bad edits (separately for the sake of efficiency and organization), and the bad edits should remain in the article until enough editors have the time, interest, and attention span to form consensuses against them while attending to other important matters. This, at an ATP where we're struggling to keep the ToC at a manageable size even without such discussions. I don't know what articles you're editing, but I want to work there. ―Mandruss☎03:51, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
I gather the Donald Trump article is a rare anomaly where bad content is something we have to live with because the current rules are incapable of preventing it. After all, it's just one article. I would oppose that reasoning. I'd say article quality is at least as important there as anywhere else. ―Mandruss☎04:33, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
So there should be new discussions for each of the bad edits ...: Yes, or what is an alternative? Your suggestion to favor "good" edits over "bad" is problematic when everyone says their's are the "good" ones. Polarizing topics can be difficult for patrolling admins to WP:AGF determine "good" v. "bad" edits if they are not subject matter experts.—Bagumba (talk) 05:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
Remember that consecutive edits by a single editor are treated as a single revert for WP:3RR purposes. So, in your case, editor H can go back and revert the various bad edits and, even if they mechanically break it out into multiple edits, they still have done one revert... Until someone goes back and re-reverts. Simonm223 (talk) 19:58, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
If "do not repeat edits without consensus" were the rule (rather than "do not revert"), it would take care of this problem. Levivich (talk) 03:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
Who said anything about repeated edits? Am I missing something? I'm tired at the moment, so that's a possibility. ―Mandruss☎04:04, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
What do you mean, who said? I said something about repeated edits :-) If the rule were "do not repeat edits without consensus" 1x or 3x in 24 hours, instead of "do not revert" 1x or 3x in 24 hours (which leads to the whole "what exactly counts as a revert?" issue), the problem you are describing would not happen. The 'bad' editor can make 10 bad edits, and the 'good' editor can revert all 10 edits without violating do-not-repeat-3RR, and the 'bad' editor would be able to repeat 3 of those 10 edits without crossing do-not-repeat-3RR, and the 'good' editor can revert all 3 of those without crossing do-not-repeat-3RR, et voila: equilibrium. The problem is we focus on "revert" instead of "repeat." To tamp down on edit warring, we should prohibit people from repeating their edits, not from "reverting" (whatever that means, exactly) edits. Levivich (talk) 04:50, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
Blind enforcement of 1RR/3RR does not serve the project: Are you referring to page protection or blocks? On contentious topics or any subject? —Bagumba (talk) 05:11, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
What determines "global consensus"?
This ArbCom resolution established that "Where there is a global consensus to edit in a certain way, it should be respected and cannot be overruled by a local consensus."
I would like to ask what is the standard for defining that there is global consensus. If the top 100 articles in a certain category all are written in a certain way, is this considered sufficient for global consensus?
If a 100 articles are not enough, what is the threshold? Is it proportional to the number articles in that category?
Should then this warrant that all articles in that category be written in that way (unless very clearly harmful to the specific article)?
I believe that "global consensus" refers to policies and guidelines in particular, and to generally accepted practices across the whole of the English Misplaced Pages. A consensus that applies to just 100 articles out of the almost 7 million article in the English Misplaced Pages is a local consensus. Donald Albury16:14, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
Milo8505, you asked this question in a way that can't be answered. Consensus does not depend on categories, and Misplaced Pages does not deal in abstract quantities but in concrete articles. Is this about whether to have an infobox on Gustav Mahler? If so then please say so, to provide some context to your question. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:34, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
@Phil Bridger Yes, it is about that topic. I believe that there is sufficient global consensus about the inclusion of infoboxes on biographies. I am well aware that the official policy is "no policy defined", but I see a clear trend, by looking at the most read articles, that all biographies - of musicians and non musicians alike - have an infobox, except a select few classical music composers.
I do not currently have the whole information regarding exactly how many of all biographies have an infobox, and that is why I was asking what is usually considered consensus.
However, given that I'm very aware that a hundred articles out of seven million is not precisely consensus, I will attempt, when I have the time, to go through every single biography to determine an exact percentage.
If you want to spend your time doing that then I can't stop you, but I warn you that you will be wasting your time. That is not how consensus is measured. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:10, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
Obviously I will not count by hand, I have some idea of how to use an automated tool to do that.
But then, how is consensus measured?
I'm under the impression that there is a group of very determined and very vocal editors that fiercely oppose infoboxes on classical composers' articles (which leads to most of them having discussions about infoboxes, citing each other as examples of articles without infobox), separate from the majority of biographies, which have an infobox.
I see no better way of proving (or maybe disproving) my point than this, because my earlier points of infoboxes being a great thing for Gustav Mahler's article, and the fact that numerous non-classical musicians have infoboxes, and lengthy ones at that, seem to have fallen on deaf ears.
And I would like to state, for the record, that I'm not doing this out of spite, or out of a personal interest (I'm actually losing my time by arguing about this), but because I truly, wholeheartedly believe that an infobox on each and every biography, and in general, on every article where there could be one (this excludes abstract topics such as existencialism) would make Misplaced Pages a truly better place.
I would have to search the archives, but we actually held an RFC (one of the ways in which we determine GLOBAL consensus) that was focused on whether to mandate infoboxes on articles about composers… which determined that there were valid reasons not to require them (I suppose you could say that global consensus was to defer to local consensus on this specific issue). Remember WP:Other Stuff Exists is not an accepted argument here at WP. And that “standard practice” often has exceptions. Blueboar (talk) 22:06, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
I understand, but that is not my sole argument. I have provided other arguments in favor, which you can read at the aforementioned talk page which basically boil down to:
in my opinion,
Infoboxes make standardized information more easily accessible, and
They do not harm the rest of the article, as they do not displace the lead paragraph.
However, in the linked talk page, I see that opponents of infoboxes rely somewhat on the loosely established precedent/consensus that composers shouldn't have infoboxes.
That is why I wanted to bring forth a new argument, using the, as I see it, very established consensus for infoboxes in biographies, and what I want to know here is whether this consensus can be proven to exist (or what is it required for this consensus to exist). Milo8505(talk)07:30, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
This whole thing about "global" and "local" consensus seems to confuse everyone, and consequently folks make up whatever seems plausible to them. Let me give you a potted history and the usual claims, and perhaps that will help you understand the principle.
'Way back in the day, infoboxes didn't exist. AIUI the first widely used infobox template was {{taxobox}} in 2004, and the general concept appeared soon after. However, through the end of 2007, Template:Infobox didn't look like what we're used to. Originally, an 'infobox template' was literally a wikitext table that you could copy and fill in however you wanted.
While infoboxes were being developed, the editors at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Composers decided that infoboxes were a bad idea specifically for articles about classical composers, so after a series of disputes and discussions, in April 2007 they wrote a note that said, basically, "BTW, the sitewide rules don't apply to the articles we WP:OWN."
The conflict between this group and the rest of the community eventually resulted in the 2010 Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Composers/Infoboxes RfC. The result of this years-long dispute is memorialized in the example given in what is now the Misplaced Pages:Consensus#Levels of consensus section of the policy: "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope."
Or, to be rather more pointy-headed about it: WikiProject Composers doesn't get to decide that "their" articles are exempt from MOS:INFOBOXUSE.
What was then a statement about the "Purpose of consensus" or, before then, one of several "Exceptions" to forming a consensus on a talk page has since been renamed ==Levels of consensus==. Also, ArbCom (and consequently part of the community) has started talking about "global" consensus. I think that has confused people about the point.
"Levels" of consensus could mean the strength of the consensus ("This is just a weak consensus, so..."). It could mean something about the process used ("My CENT-listed RFC trumps your Village pump post"). It could mean whether the consensus applies to the whole site ("We formed a consensus at Talk:Article about the first sentence of Article, so now I need to make 500 other articles match this one"). And it could tell us something about how likely it is that the decision matches the overall view of the community.
It's supposed to be that last one. We don't want a handful of people getting together on some page and saying "Let's reject this rule. This article needs to be censored. Copyvio restrictions are inconvenient. Bold-face text helps people see the important points. And we know this POV is correct, so it should dominate." We want quite the opposite: "The community says that this is usually the best thing, so let's do this."
AFAICT, the overall view of The Community™ is that we think that there should not be any Official™ Rule saying that any subset of articles should have an infobox. We're probably doing this mostly for social reasons, rather than article reasons. For example, every single article about a US President, or atomic elements, or any number of other subjects, has an infobox – but we refuse to write any rule saying they should, or even that they usually should, even though we know the popularity is ever-increasing. For example, at the moment, Georgina Sutton is the only biography linked on the Main Page that doesn't have an infobox.
I suspect that the closest we will come to such a rule during the next few years is a note about how popular they are. It should be possible to see how many articles (overall, or in particular subsets) already use infoboxes, and to add that information to MOS:INFOBOXUSE. For now, we could add a statement that "most" articles have an infobox.
Being able to do this in wikitext was was considered an improvement, because originally, you had to code tables in raw HTML.
This was not as unreasonable back then as it sounds now. WikiProjects were a significant source of subject-specific advice back then, and the rule-making systems were quite informal. WP:PROPOSAL didn't exist until late 2008. Before then, most guidelines and even policies acquired their labels merely because someone decided to slap the tag on it, and if nobody objected, then that was the consensus for what to call it.
From what you have said, given that WikiProject composers have to follow MOS:INFOBOXUSE, there should be a discussion on each and every composer's talk page to determine whether an infobox is warranted.
I see this as a bit of a, difficult and fruitless endeavor, as the arguments presented, for either case, are always the same, and they all usually result in stalemates (like the one about Mahler).
What I propose is to change the policy, to, at least, recommend infoboxes on certain categories, given that, as you said, they are very popular. Or at the very least, as you suggest, acknowledge the fact that they are very popular.
When I have time to gather more data on the use of infoboxes, I will propose a new RfC to try to commit this change to the policy.
I am very well aware that my chances of success are slim, but, I'll do what I can do.
Well, if "they all usually result in stalemates", then that represents a change, because the last complaint I saw about this subject said that the RFCs on whether to add an infobox almost always resulted in an infobox being added. Perhaps it varies by subject, however.
Acknowledging that they're popular shouldn't require a proposal for a change. It should only require getting some decent numbers. Check the archives of WP:RAQ; they probably can't query it directly, but if there's been a request, you'll see what could be done. It might also be possible to create a hidden category for "All articles with infoboxes", automagically transcluded, to get a count on the number of infoboxes. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:45, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
First of all, thank you again very much for your continued interest.
The discussions around infoboxes (not RfCs, discussions on talk pages) as far as I have seen usually go something like:
- I propose adding an infobox
+ We have talked a lot about that and there are good reasons for which it should not be added
- But I also have good reasons for which it should be added.
(no comments for 4 years, then it begins again).
I thought a bit about counting links, and I realized maybe getting this data is easier than I thought, see:
For counting the number of transclusions to a given page, this tool is very useful, and says that there are around 3.2 million infoboxes in total, and 460 thousand infoboxes about people. (on the (Article) namespace).
This seems to suggest that only around a quarter of all biographies have an infobox? Maybe I was wrong all along in my observation that infoboxes are very popular.
I am however not too sure that the two million links to Template:Wikiproject Biography on the Talk namespace actually corresponds to two million unique biographies.
Maybe another way of getting this data would be better, I'll have to look at it on some other occasion that I have more time.
I looked at the first 10 articles in Category:Core biography articles, and 100% had infoboxes. However, those ten articles used seven different infoboxes:
The problem is, there still exist editors who strongly dislike infoboxes on most biographies -- me for one. When one writes every word of an article and then someone, who has not otherwise contributed, comes and adds an infobox it can be ... annoying. The basic use tends to highlight bits of trivial information (birth & death dates/places, nationality, spouse, children) that are not usually key to the person's notability. Even more contentious can be trying to define what a person's key contributions are, in a half-sentence. For some this is easy, and an infobox might be a good way of presenting the data, for others (including many classical composers) not so much. It can be hard enough to write a lead that presents this in a balanced fashion in a paragraph or three.
Are all good biographies written by groups? I'm not sure; probably the best are, but there are many many biographies of minor figures where 99.9% of the text was contributed by a single author, some of which are fairly well developed. Espresso Addict (talk) 05:05, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
I'm thankful for your contributions, but I'm sorry that you don't WP:OWN any article, and you can't dismiss someone else improving the article you wrote because you wrote it and you don't personally agree with the contributions made.
That said, it may be difficult to summarize why someone is important in a phrase, but it's not impossible, and, IMO actually something that should be done, as it makes the article easier (and faster) to scan. Milo8505(talk)09:39, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
What I am obviously failing to convey is that some editors write articles, far fewer than those who contribute in other ways, and some of those dislike the "improving" addition of an infobox by another editor who makes no other edits, improving or otherwise. Espresso Addict (talk) 10:40, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
Why is that relevant? Nobody owns an article, regardless of in which why they contribute to Misplaced Pages. Just because some editors dislike something does not give them a veto over things that the majority of other editors believe does improve the article. Obviously an infobox with incorrect information is not an improvement but that doesn't mean an infobox with correct information is not an improvement. In exactly the same way as a paragraph with incorrect information about an aspect of the article subject is a bad addition, this does not mean that a paragraph with correct information about that same aspect is bad. Thryduulf (talk) 11:55, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
It seems to me a great deal more like reference format and English variant. It could easily be argued that we should have standardised on US spelling and picked a mode of referencing, but we never did because it would alienate too much of the workforce. Espresso Addict (talk) 12:55, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
It's not even close to being like ENGVAR or reference formatting. Those are stylistic decisions where there are multiple equally valid choices that don't impact content. Infoboxes are a content decision where one choice directly benefits the readership and one choice placates the dislikes of a minority of editors. Thryduulf (talk) 16:40, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
We obviously genuinely disagree on the topic. But I just don't see how the usual formulation benefits readers for bios about writers, composers or the like, especially where it is difficult to encapsulate their contributions in a half sentence or single notable work. I note that biographical sources such as Oxford Dictionary of National Biography or newspaper obituaries do not generally include infoboxes, in fact I can't think of where I've seen one on a biographical article of this type outside Misplaced Pages. Espresso Addict (talk) 03:53, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
Infoboxes are not limited to a single notable work. There is no need to condense a person's life to a single notable work in an infobox. Milo8505(talk)06:34, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
But unless you list all their works there is a problem of original research. You need to provide appropriate sources that the works you have selected are appropriate to represent the subject. This is often very hard in practice, and even harder to demonstrate in an infobox (according to critics A,B,C but ignoring the non-mainstream views of D,E, and only partially incorporating the views of F–Z, the following are the major works...). Espresso Addict (talk) 07:28, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
Well, no. There are statistics for something. Notable means worthy of note, distinguished, prominent as per Merriam-Webster Dictionary. Notable works are not a collection appropriate to represent the subject as a whole, but rather those worthy of note, distinguished, prominent, in other words, popular or important (for the field in question).
But the main point being, once again, that this problem is NOT a problem with the infobox itself. Citing the lead paragraph for the Mahler article:
As a composer he acted as a bridge between the 19th-century Austro-German tradition and the modernism of the early 20th century
and
Mahler's œuvre is relatively limited; for much of his life composing was necessarily a part-time activity while he earned his living as a conductor. Aside from early works such as a movement from a piano quartet composed when he was a student in Vienna, Mahler's works are generally designed for large orchestral forces, symphonic choruses and operatic soloists. These works were frequently controversial when first performed, and several were slow to receive critical and popular approval; exceptions included his Second Symphony, and the triumphant premiere of his Eighth Symphony in 1910. Some of Mahler's immediate musical successors included the composers of the Second Viennese School, notably Arnold Schoenberg, Alban Berg and Anton Webern. Dmitri Shostakovich and Benjamin Britten are among later 20th-century composers who admired and were influenced by Mahler. The International Gustav Mahler Society was established in 1955 to honour the composer's life and achievements.
According to whom? By what research? What if I do not think that is the case?
You would rightfully say that my answers are on the references section, and that I should be WP:BOLD in changing it if I'm convinced that it could be better.
And, most importantly, from your comment on the Talk page, I see that the article actually selects three works as prominent, and, you challenge that (IMO rightfully). Then it turns out that the problem of selecting what is important is not one of infoboxes but one central to writing biographies.
That's less true than one might think. Both {{taxobox}} and {{drugbox}} have a high likelihood of containing information than isn't repeated in the article.
Those are very specific examples, although you are right that they do not conform to what I said. Anyhow the point still stands for biographies. Milo8505(talk)09:31, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
True, but I believe that there are good reasons some works can be highlighted. Anyhow, this is also a consideration when writing the lead, not only the infobox. Milo8505(talk)09:36, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
I don't think that "OWN" is a useful model here. Consider this story:
Someone saw a neglected area in his neighborhood, and he thought he'd help people by quietly picking up the trash. People mostly didn't notice, and nobody objected, so whenever he was walking out that way, he brought a trash bag with him and picked up some of the discarded litter. He carried on for a while just for the satisfaction of seeing it get better.
Then The Committee showed up.
They told him: "It's very nice that you decided to clean this up. However, you should wear gloves for your own safety."
"Okay," he thought. "There's probably something in their advice." So he started wearing gloves, and he did think that it made it a little easier to sort the recycling from the garbage.
The Committee came back another time: "Thank you for your past work. We notice that a bit of the grass here grows out onto the sidewalk. We're not saying you have to do this, because this spot isn't yours, but it would be nice if someone got a lawn edger and made that even neater."
The volunteer thought that since nobody had bothered to pick up the trash, it was unlikely that anyone else would trim the grass. Besides, he had a lawn edging tool, so the next time he dropped by, he brought a trash bag, his gloves, and his lawn edger. The little spot was looking pretty neat, if a bit plain.
Soon, the Committee came back again: "Thank you for your past work. We just wanted to let you know that our standards say that it's not enough to clean up a mess. Every area should also have some plants. So it would be very nice if you planted some trees or bushes or something in this spot, even though it's not yours."
"Can you at least buy the plants?" he asked.
"No," said The Committee. "Thank you for your past work, but you'll have to grow them or buy them yourself, or maybe you could find someone who would give them to you."
The volunteer thought that the little spot would benefit from some cheery little flowers, and he decided to do it. He planted a few yellow flowers along the edge.
The next day The Committee showed up. "What? Yellow flowers? Thank you for your past work, but we have received complaints. One of the neighbors (who happens to be part of The Committee) just filed a confidential complaint that there are now garishly colored flowers in this little spot. Those have to be removed. You don't own this place, you know, even though you're the only one who did anything to take care of it, except for the neighbor's important work complaining, and of course our even more important work ordering you around."
@Milo8505 (and others), my question is: Do you expect the volunteer to keep maintaining that little spot? Or do you expect him to quit?
It is true that the author/maintainer of an article does not WP:OWN it. But it is also true that the editor is a WP:VOLUNTEER, and if you make volunteering be sufficiently un-fun – say, by trampling the yellow flowers he planted, or by demanding an infobox at the top of an article – then it would only be logical, rational, and predictable for that editor to quit contributing. And then who is going to write the new articles? WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:29, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
What you are proposing is no different to ownership - giving an article writer control over what is and is not allowed on "their" article just because they don't like something that the consensus of the community says is important and beneficial to readers. Thryduulf (talk) 11:10, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
No. What I'm proposing is that we remember that there are consequences for every decision we make, and choose the consequences we want to live with. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:09, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
And your proposed method of avoiding consequences you don't like is to give article writers ownership of "their" articles. The consequences of that need to be justified, and I don't think they can be. Thryduulf (talk) 13:21, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
I would actually say that suppressing infoboxes is more akin to removing flowers than creating them...
I'm not asking of anyone to do anything they don't want to. They are actually asking me (and others) not to do something a good number of people consider good. Milo8505(talk)17:31, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
The problem is that what one person considers a beautiful flower, another person may consider a weed that needs pruning. Flowers are nice, but so is a manicured lawn. What we need to determine is WHETHER (in this particular lawn) we are planting flowers or pulling weeds. Blueboar (talk) 17:44, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
And for the wider distinction between WP:OWN and WP:VOLUNTEER. Nobody is forcing nobody else to do anything they don't like. Editors are free to restrain from editing whatever they feel like without any reason. What they are not free to do is to say that their substantial contributions to one article give them a more prominent opinion than everybody else on subjects related to that article. Milo8505(talk)17:41, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
The type of editor who quits the project over an infobox probably isn't someone suited to improving the project or working with others. I've worked on articles and a new editor may add something I don't like, but if they find consensus I accept the will of the community. That's how this place is supposed to work. Nemov (talk) 22:19, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
@Nemov, would you say that about me? I once objected to a template being renamed to something that was less convenient for me. It got renamed anyway, because other editors thought the new name would make their own work more convenient.
We do have to "accept the will of the community", but we do not have to continue volunteering under circumstances that aren't working for us, so I stopped doing that work. They got their advantages; we got another backlog for several years. (Eventually another editor decided to do that work.)
I really really really do not think that the spirit of How will this action make every other editor feel? is very useful to Misplaced Pages.
Although well-intentioned, it's imposible to think about every possible edge case, and sometimes it's imposible to find something that everyone will agree to, so if we stop to ask that question before every change, we will, in the end, get nothing at all done. Milo8505(talk)09:34, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
It is impossible to think about every possible edge case.
However, we're not talking about Unknown unknowns in this case. We're talking about known consequences. We either choose them and own them, or we avoid them. Take your pick – but don't pretend that a choice has no downsides after you've been told what one of the downsides is. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:39, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
Let's all take a deep breath, and not compare editing Misplaced Pages to waging deadly wars.
You're thinking about this at the wrong level, with your focus on "hurting someone's feelings".
This is more of a key employee situation, so let's tell the story a different way:
Your business depends heavily on a small number of highly valuable employees. Without these few, your business will probably fail, because you will have no products to sell. You are the manager, and you think about how you will improve the business's profitability. You come up with an idea and share it with your staff.
Most of the staff thinks it's a good idea, but some of your key employees tell you that it's intolerable, and if you implement it, they will quit.
Should you say:
"Well, I'm sorry if your little feelings got hurt, but frankly you don't own this business. Don't let the door hit your backside on your way out", or
"Um, I don't want you to quit. It's not good for any of us if you quit. Let me see if we can come up with something that meets my legitimate goals and also keeps you working here."
Misplaced Pages does not depend on "a small number of highly valuable employees". Our goal is always to best serve our readers, and we do that by including the information in our articles that they want and expect to be there. We do not do that by pandering to the dislikes of editors, especially not a small minority of editors. No matter how you try and spin it, ownership of articles is not justifiable. Thryduulf (talk) 22:10, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
No one has suggested otherwise. I have absolutely no clue where you are substantiating this accusation of WhatamIdoing arguing for article ownership. Stating that outside editors with no connection to the article in interest other than to come and enforce their pet issues unrelated to any substantive content in the article is not “article ownership” anymore than having WikiProjects that have certain editors contributing more than others not part of the Project is “ownership.” Barbarbarty (talk) 23:56, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
WP:OWN isn't complicated. No one, no matter what, has the right to act as though they are the owner of a particular article (or any part of it). You're creating a group of "outside editors." We are all editors here. One editor's "pet issue" is another editors improvement. Misplaced Pages is a collaborative effort. Nemov (talk) 00:20, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Again, no one has suggested otherwise. I am simply stating a fact that when certain editors try to present something as an “improvement” and it is roundly rejected by other editors who routinely edit the article, it is not a case of someone asserting “ownership.” Hiding behind accusations of others asserting “ownership” to obfuscate the fact that some editor’s changes are counterproductive or not accepted is not the same as finding a violation of WP:OWN. Barbarbarty (talk) 01:11, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Honestly I fail to see how I could have made myself clearer. You are accusing me of “creating a group of outside editors.” I have suggested nothing of the sort. I was merely saying that when certain groups of editors have more expertise on certain subjects, and therefore edit articles related to those subjects more than other users, that is simply how many articles have been crafted and developed. It’s not “ownership” to state that fact, nor is it elevating any group of editors above any other group. If someone who does not edit a certain article frequently adds an edit to an article and it is reverted, just because it is reverted by another user who is more active on the article does not automatically implicate WP:OWN. Barbarbarty (talk) 02:43, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
when certain groups of editors have more expertise on certain subjects, and therefore edit articles related to those subjects more than other users, that is simply how many articles have been crafted and developed. is saying that certain groups of editors should be allowed OWNERSHIP of articles they have written, it is explicitly elevating group of editors above group. Thryduulf (talk) 03:10, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
You have a very odd and confusing idea of what “explicitly” means, given what you described has absolutely no relation to what I actually said. Absolutely nowhere have I stated certain groups of editors be allowed “ownership.” For the third time, I have just stated that it is natural that some editors edit articles more than others. Sometimes they do so because they have specialized knowledge about the subject area. Nothing about that implies certain editors be given ownership, and frankly it’s ridiculous to construe what I said to mean anything like that. Barbarbarty (talk) 03:26, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
@Barbarbarty Multiple of @WhatamIdoing's posts, including the one I was directly replying to, advocate for article ownership without using that term. The post I was directly replying to explicitly claimed Misplaced Pages depends on a small number of editors.
Stating that outside editors with no connection to the article in interest other than to come and enforce their pet issues unrelated to any substantive content in the article so presumably you object to editors copyediting, typo fixing, adding conversion templates, adding/editing/removing categories and short descriptions, making the article consistent in it's language variety, citation style and/or unit ordering and any of the other myriad of improvements "outside editors with no connection to the article" make? If not, why are infoboxes different? Who gets to decide who is and who is not an "outside editor" and thus who is entitled to stand above consensus? Thryduulf (talk) 00:50, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
First off, you admit that WhatamIdoing never advocated for article ownership. I still fail to see how it can be shown otherwise. As for your point about things I would “presumably” object to, one look at my posting history would show that the vast majority of my contributions involve things like fixing typos and the like. Simple maintenance issues like adding citations and fixing typos are not “pet issues” in any sense of the term. I doubt any editor on here would think that Misplaced Pages should have articles with unfixed typos or improper grammar. Infoboxes do not fall into simple “maintenance.” Arbitrarily adding them without discussion, as history as shown, is nearly guaranteed to cause debate. They are entirely done on a case-by-case basis, dependent on a myriad of factors. As I said above, “ownership” is not simply some editors who edit an article more frequently rejecting so-called “improvements” by editors who edit the article less frequently. Barbarbarty (talk) 01:20, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
First off, you admit that WhatamIdoing never advocated for article ownership I did not do this. I said she has argued for article ownership without using that term, because no matter whether you call it "ownership" or not, when she is arguing for is exactly what we define ownership to be. Infoboxes are no more "pet issues" than fixing typos or any of the other improvements mentioned, the only difference is that some editors dislike them. As I said above, “ownership” is not simply some editors who edit an article more frequently rejecting so-called “improvements” by editors who edit the article less frequently. Except it is, as Nemov has explained in very simple terms above. Thryduulf (talk) 01:57, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Again, nothing you have pointed to shows anyone advocating for ownership. Nothing. Simply saying that one is “saying without saying” is pointless and unconvincing. Fixing typos and adding infoboxes are not the same, I find it mystifying to read you implying otherwise. If only infoboxes were as noncontroversial as typos that would save us a lot of trouble! But sadly they are not, so pretending someone adding an infobox to every article is the same as fixing typos here and there is not grounded in the reality we live in. As to your last point, that’s not a refutation. And I believe I thoroughly addressed that point already. Under your logic no person who has previously edited an article is allowed to revert someone else’s edit on that same article lest they be accused of asserting “ownership.” I fail to see the logic in such a position. Barbarbarty (talk) 03:34, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
@Thryduulf, I'd like to think that I'm arguing for acknowledging the value of content, and by extension for the people who create it.
If we choose to insist upon infoboxes, I'd rather that we did this kindly, while trying to find solutions to the identified problems, instead of with an WP:IDONTCAREWP:YOUWP:DON'TWP:OWNWP:WIKIPEDIA tone. I'm hearing a lot more of the latter than the former in this conversation. I think we can do better than that.
IMO the ideal outcome is more infoboxes and nobody quits writing articles. I think the first outcome is inevitable. I think the second outcome depends on how we treat people who are unhappy with the first outcome. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:02, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
I entered this topic about two years ago, completely unfamiliar with it until it came up in an RFC. Since then, I haven’t seen any of the content creators strongly opposed to infoboxes quit. In fact, they’re still actively creating content and opposing infoboxes. One editor even came out of retirement to create new content—so overall, it’s a net win.
Most of the RFCs over the last two years have been initiated by editors unaware of this long-standing dispute. The pattern is predictable: they ask why there’s no infobox, get dogpiled by the same group of editors, and if they persist, the tone worsens. When it eventually goes to an RFC, the infobox is approved most of the time.
This behavior seems tolerated because these editors are content creators. However, considering they haven’t quit and newer editors often face hostility for bringing up the topic, I’m not seeing the issue you’re raising. Nemov (talk) 16:01, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
You didn't quit the Misplaced Pages over it. There are some editors who have been arguing about infoboxes for over 15 years. It's only a contentious topic because that group can't let it go. I feel bad for new editors who wander into the topic not knowing the back story. Nemov (talk) 17:32, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
It's only contentious because both sides can't let it go.
If the template renaming had happened at a point when I was already unhappy with editing, it would have tipped me over the edge.
What I'm not seeing here is any acknowledgement of the costs. I see the advantages:
Pros:
I like it.
Readers like it.
but not the known list of disadvantages:
Cons:
Some editors dislike it enough that they will reduce their participation or stop writing articles altogether.
You might well say "I like it, so I and other supporters will be inspired to do 2% more editing if we get our way, and it adds 5% more value to readers in biographies and 10% more value in corporations with an WP:ELOFFICIAL link in the infobox. That benefit needs to be set against 1% of editors quitting and 2% fewer notable articles being created. That's still a net benefit, so let's go with it."
@WhatamIdoing I would urge you reread my comment. I think you'll find there was no finger pointing at a particular side. You're twisting yourself into a pretzel here to defend ownership. There's a cost to everything. I think if you review some of the newer editors who have wandered into this topic they're not being encouraged to edit or learn. Nemov (talk) 05:32, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Indeed I've seen several examples of newcomers being thoroughly bitten when they dare to ask for an infobox to be added to an article. See for example Talk:Stanley Holloway where suggestions get aggressively shut down. Thryduulf (talk) 10:09, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Yes, there are costs to every choice. What irritates me at the moment is that some costs are being ignored, and one of those costs increases our long-term risk of collapse. (On the opposite side, one of the costs is that readers won't get what they need, which is also a very serious problem.)
And I'm anti hyperbolic claims that allowing article ownership is somehow the only way to avoid destroying Misplaced Pages. Nobody is irreplaceable. Thryduulf (talk) 22:30, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Case in point Jacqueline Stieger, where the box I've just removed (1) highlighted her place of birth Wimbledon and nationality British, which -- for someone with two Swiss parents, who was brought up in Yorkshire, did some of her notable work in France/Switzerland with her Swiss husband and then settled back in Yorkshire with her Swiss stepchildren -- is undue; and (2) copied "artist and sculptor" from the beginning of the capsule, while not paying heed to the fact her notable works predominantly fall into two groups, big architectural sculptures mainly in metal, and jewellery/art medals. Espresso Addict (talk) 05:52, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
Well sure, but I just looked down my list of created bios by date till I found the first to which someone had added an infobox. I didn't drag out my historical collection of badly added infoboxes including those that had been cut-and-pasted wholesale from another article without changing any of the data, and those that introduced errors in the dates. Espresso Addict (talk) 10:40, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
Looking at the example of Jacqueline Stieger, I'm not understanding Espresso Addict's position. They object to the infobox giving her nationality as British. But the lead has always said that she "is a British artist and sculptor". And the {{short description}} is "British artist and sculptor". And there are a bunch of categories which tend to describe her as English rather than British.
The lead, infobox, short description and other structural stuff like categories are all summaries or attributes of the main content. Summarising obviously involves some loss of detail. Objecting to an infobox seems like objecting to a short description. I often don't like these myself but they seem to be unavoidable.
It's not so much the details being wrong for Steiger, they give undue prominence to trivial non-representative features of the subject's life, such as her place of birth, while not summarising the actual reasons for notability/interest -- possibly my fault for a slender lead. I'm not fond of short descriptions either but they are invisible to the reader. I'm actually not too fond of categories either, but they go at the bottom, after the references, and so again do not draw the attention of the reader. Espresso Addict (talk) 12:45, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
What makes anybody of you think that the infobox is more prominent than the lead of the article itself? Maybe are you implicitly recognizing that inboxes are actually widely used by readers? Milo8505(talk)20:21, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
The thing to remember about CONLOCAL is that almost all of our policies and guidelines (which supposedly reflect “global consensus”) contain a line noting that occasional exceptions may exist. This means that global consensus takes local consensus into account. Indeed, there are times when a consensus is reached at an article level (say through a RFC) that actually has greater participation (wider consensus) than the policy/guideline page that is at the heart of the discussion. A policy/guideline may be wonderful for most situations, but problematic in a specific situation.
As for infoboxes… yes, there is a “global consensus” that they are good things, and adding one usually improves the article. However, we have had RFC that show we also have a wide consensus that notes how infoboxes don’t alway work, that on occasion they can actually be more harmful than helpful… and that we can leave it to local editors to make that determination. This is especially true when it comes to articles about composers.
So, when there is local disagreement regarding a specific composer, when there is a question as to whether an infobox would be beneficial or harmful in that specific situation, the solution is to have an RFC to determine wider consensus about that specific situation.
Ie ASK the community whether that specific article should be considered an exception to our general consensus on infoboxes. Blueboar (talk) 13:54, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
The phrase "global consensus" indicates that we should look across all the languages, not just English. Articles about famous composers seem to have about 50 versions in the various languages and it's easy to spot-check these to see whether they do or don't have infoboxes. I looked at a few examples of English composers as they seemed to be the most likely to be disputed: Gustav Holst, Ralph Vaughan Williams, Benjamin Britten. My impression is that most languages have infoboxes for these. Apart from English, the main outliers seem to be German and Italian. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:39, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
I do not thing that is the case. Each Misplaced Pages is separate from others, and they each have their own policies and ways of doing things. Milo8505(talk)20:23, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
There seem to be at least three different meanings of "global consensus" in this discussion. The OP seems to have taken it to mean something that should apply to all articles of a particular type, but in WP:CONLEVEL I think it means a consensus reached by everyone rather than just the editors of particular articles. These are different. It is in principle possible for a global discussion to come to the conclusion that every article should be treated differently. Andrew Davidson introduces another level of "global" that includes other language Wikipedias. English Misplaced Pages has always claimed its independence from other projects, so I don't think that will fly. On the specific case of infoboxes surely the discussion should be about what to include in them, rather than first a discussion of whether they should exist. If the answer is "nothing" then we simply don't have them. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:49, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
We need to fix the admin recall process
Right now only "recall" votes count, and those opposing recall don't count for anything, nor do any points made in the discussion. So 25 quick group-think / mob thumbs-down votes and even be best admmin can get booted. And the best (= the most active) are the ones most likely to get booted. An admin that does near zero will get zero votes to recall. And with a single regular RFA currently the only way back in (which we've seen, very few want to go through) "booted" is "booted". The fix would be to have a discussion period pror to voting, with both "recall" and "don't recall" choices. And then say that the recall has occurred (thus requiring rfa) if over 50% or 60% of those voting said "recall".
Thanks. I looked for something like that but I guess I didn't look hard enough. I hope others look harder than me. :-) North8000 (talk) 21:58, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
I don't think you understand how recall works. An admin is only desysopped after the RRFA, not after the 25 signatures, unless they choose to resign on their own. You're asking to hold a vote on whether or not a vote should be held. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 20:55, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
Yes, I understood that and that is integrated into my comment above. Unless they go through and succeed at an RFA they are gone. North8000 (talk) 21:54, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
I've never heard of a petition that lets people sign because they don't support it. And I'll add that between the two recall petitions that were enacted to this point, both were preceded by many, many attempts to get the admin to correct course over the years despite egregious misconduct. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:03, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
But you've just refused to engage in a discussion with how the structure has actually worked in practice; hence, conjecture. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 00:19, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
The process at the moment does have a certain level of redundancy, with the recall and reconfirmation RFA being separate things. The reconfirmation RFA is even a standard RFA, as it has different criteria for success.
I'm not sure if anything should be done yet, as it's still very early in its adoption. However if the situation occurs that a petition is successful but the reconfirmation RFA SNOWs, it could indicate that adjustments needs to be made so that community time isn't wasted. That speculative at the moment though. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t°23:53, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
The recall petition threshold is not the recall discussion - it is just a check to prevent the most frivolous recall discussions from being held. — xaosflux00:56, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
The optics of this look alltogether terrible from my observation. I don't edit much, but I like reading a lot. Every criticism of the recall process i've seen so far just looks like old established admins thinking they might be next and having anxiety about that.
The problem of something like this is that the optics are terrible. If anyone who doesn't know you reads that, the conclusion they will draw will likely not be "this recall process is terrible" and more likely go along the lines of "wow this is a lot of admins who don't have the community's trust anymore and want to dodge accountability".
By being so vocally against any form of community led accountability, you're strenghtening the case for easy recalls and low thresholds, not weakening it.
Specifically regarding Fastily, I'll make no comment on whether or not he deserves to still be an admin or not, I don't know him well enough for that and haven't reviewed enough of his contributions, but the arguments of "ANI agreed that no sanctions were appropriate" sound a lot like "our police department has investigated itself and found nothing was wrong". You have to see how this comes across, it's eroding trust in Admins on the whole project right now. Magisch09:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
Specifically, if RFA is so toxic that nobody wants to do it, that needs to be reformed. But the recent amount of vitriol towards a process that only kickstarts having to prove that you retain community trust has me convinced that there should be automatic mandatory RRFAs for every admin every 2 years or so.
If, as of today, you don't believe the community would entrust you with admin tools, why do you think you should still have them? The criteria for losing them should not be "has clearly abused them", it should be "wouldn't be trusted with them if asked today". Magisch09:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
As an admin actively working to improve the recall process, my goal is to make it as fair as possible to all parties. That means it should not be possible to subject an admin to the process frivolously while equally making it possible to recall administrators who have lost the trust of the community, and it needs to be as non-toxic as possible, because even administrators who are actively abusing their tools are people and nobody deserves 1-2 months of abuse. It's also incorrect to describe ANI as a police department investigating itself - everybody engaging in good faith is welcome to comment there, regardless of whether they are an admin or not. Thryduulf (talk) 11:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
@Thryduulf It's the Administrator's Noticeboard, naturally the vast majority of participants will be either admins or people who are involved in the same work.
I don't think asking an admin to confirm they still retain the trust of the community (the whole basis of giving out admin tools to begin with) is ever really frivolous. The current process allows that at most once a year. If an admin had to stand for RFA every year, that might be a bit too much long term, but really, if any admin thinks they would not pass RRFA today, why should they retain their tools.
Also, the sheer optics of it being mostly (from what i've seen) established admins calling this process toxic are terrible. Anyone who doesn't know anything about this process will see this as some kind of thin blue line mentality in the admin corps - and might conclude that it is time to desysop the majority of old admins to dissolve the clique.
I have no horse in this race, except that I regret not seeing the RFA earlier so I could have voted Support, sorry about that.
But if your argument is optics, then having a bunch of recall petitions for the people who most vocally expressed a valid opinion on an evolving policy is absolutely awful optics. At best. Gnomingstuff (talk) 01:33, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
I took the stats from the first RRfA to test this theory:
1st RRfA votes
Support
Oppose
Total
Administrators
48
29
77
Non-admins
71
116
187
Total
119
145
264
Administrators made up 29% of the voters. If being an admin doesn't influence anyone's vote, then we can expect admins to make up roughly 29% of the supporters and 29% of the opposers. But this didn't happen. In the final results, administrators made up 40% of the supporters and 20% of the opposers. We can also look at the individual odds of supporting/opposing depending on user rights. It ended at 45% support, so you'd expect admins to have a 45% chance of supporting and a 55% chance of opposing. But this also didn't happen. If you choose any admin at random, they had a 62% chance of supporting and a 38% chance of opposing (ignoring neutrals). Non-admins were the opposite: they had a 38% chance of supporting and a 62% chance of opposing.
So our next question should be why it was so much more likely for an admin to support the RRfA relative to a non-admin. The obvious answer is of course as you said: admins have a perverse incentive to support here, especially if they're not-so-great admins who know they probably don't have the trust of the community anymore. Also suggested during the RRfA is the comradery that comes from working alongside a fellow admin for so long. I'd be interested in seeing how account age affects likelihood of supporting, but that's not something that can be counted up in a few minutes like admin status. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 17:48, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
I believe it may be centered on the idea that we all make mistakes, and many of us like to think we'd be given a chance to grow and learn from said mistake, instead of being forced through the RfA process again. But I recognize I may be being overly optimistic on that, and that others may not have the same thoughts on the matter that I do. Many admins I've spoken to would simply choose to give up their tools as opposed to go through an RfA again, something I've also considered despite my relatively smooth RfA. I'm also not sure Graham is the best representation of that. I voted support, recognizing that Graham87 has made mistakes, but also recognizing the significant contributions they've made and their pledge to do better. Bluntly, I did so expecting the vote to fail, and wanting to show some moral support and appreciation for their work. There's certainly a psychological aspect involved in it, but I don't think that, generally speaking, those of us who voted support or have issues with the current process are doing so out of self preservation.
There's a lot of numbers that could be analyzed, such as the history of those admins who vote at RfA (whether they often vote support or don't vote at all), but it's hard to draw meaningful conclusions from this small of a dataset. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:14, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
On paper, I get that. The thing is, I don't know whether you saw Levivich's comment or bradv's comment, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a less appropriate time to test the "chance to grow" theory than the absolutely deplorable behavior that we saw from Graham for many years with far too many chances to improve. If it were down to me, this should have been a block in 2023 rather than a desysop in 2024. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:32, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
I'm late to the discussion, but I think it's also worth pointing that only 7 of the 25 users who signed Graham87's petition and 2 of the 25 on Fastily's were admins. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 13:16, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
I would add that there is a potential wrinkle in this analysis. I'm an extended-confirmed user here (and thus would likely be counted as a non-admin), but I am a sysop on Commons so I would have my own perspective on the matter. Abzeronow (talk) 21:06, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
Well, I'm not an admin and I started this thread. I'm all for having an admin recall process by the community in place. I'm also also for a process for course correction by the community in areas where and admin has drifted off course but where the problem is fixable. Administrative Action Review has the potential to become this but that has been stymied by various things. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
I think, fundamentally, the problem is that admins have a direct and concrete conflict of interest in this discussion. Of course an admin would be naturally opposed to more mechanisms that might make them lose their permissions, especially since desysops are very rare at the moment.
I also don't really agree that the current recall process is all that toxic. You could get rid of the discussion section, as the recall is only a petition, not a consensus discussion, but that's about it. Magisch18:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
Of course an admin would be naturally opposed to more mechanisms that might make them lose their permissions – I wholeheartedly disagree with this assertion. There's a number of us that fully support a recall process, including quite a few people who have historically been open to recalls. This is an over simplification of the motives of a large group of experienced editors, many of which have legitimate and reasonable concerns about the process in its current form. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
Substantially all criticism i've seen so far of the process have boiled down to "RFA is abusive and it's unreasonable to make people go through that again". And yet, instead of attempting to change that, the only suggestions seem to be to support older admin's rights to have their permissions continue being grandfathered in. Magisch19:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
I'm sorry that that's all you've taken away from the vast amounts of criticism given by people. Perhaps consider focusing on whether the process, in its current state, makes sense instead of focusing on older admins. I'm a relatively new admin and I don't support the current iteration of the process. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:30, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
I think it's eminently sensible to have adminship not be a lifetime appointment, both by the fact that norms change even when people dont, and that I see people in every RFA expressing reluctance over granting lifetime tools. I also think that assuming RFA isn't a big deal regular reconfirmations make sense. IFF RFA is a big deal, then the focus should be on fixing that.
It seems to me that existing admins being immune to having to suffer RFA again has created a lack of pressure to actually make it into a functional, nontoxic process.
Take my opinion for what it's worth though. I'm not an admin nor do I foresee myself ever having aspirations to become one. Magisch19:43, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
Attempting to improve RFA is a very hard problem that people have been working on since before you joined Misplaced Pages, and are still working on it. I would also say that it is unreasonable to make people go through that again is a mischaracterisation of the views expressed, which are it is unreasonable to make people go through that again unnecessarily, which is significantly different. Thryduulf (talk) 19:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
I just found out about this discussion, and it looks to me like the same or similar things are being discussed in way too many different places. Anyway, I'm someone who has stated repeatedly and strongly in multiple places that I think the recall process is a disaster, and is beyond repair. And, contra some statements above, here are some other facts about me. I'm not an admin. I opposed Graham's re-RfA. And I played a central role in WP:CDARFC. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:12, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
I would be against it for a different reason: if we allow both supports and opposes, then the recall petition becomes a mini-RfA with the same amount of pressure as the RRfA itself (especially since, given the identical threshold, the recall's result would be indicative of the RRfA's subsequent result). Since anyone can start the recall petition, it functionally means that anyone can force an admin to re-RfA, which is clearly worse. On the other hand, having a set number of supports needed provides for a "thresholding" of who can open a RRfA, while not necessarily being as stressful. If anything, I would say the recall should become more petition-like (and thus less stressful for the recalled admin), rather than more RfA-like. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 20:01, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
The ones most likely to be booted are bad admins who are abusive toward the editor community and who negatively represent themselves as admins. Both of the recalls thus far were just exact examples of that and worked perfectly as designed and needed. The process worked exactly as desired and removed bad admins who deserved to be desysopped. Though I do think the discussion section of the petitions should be more regulated. Discussion should be about the admin's actions and conduct and nothing else. Any extraneous commentary should be removed. Silverseren00:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
When I first started editing Misplaced Pages almost 20 years ago, I was struck by what, to me at least, appeared to be widespread incivility. Among a number of things which have changed for the better IMHO is an all round expectation that everyone's standards of behaviour should rise (and they have). The admin role breeds a certain "culture" (for lack of a better term) akin to a conservationist, the role is to "protect" Misplaced Pages from "harm" and I can certainly see why being an admin could be a deeply frustrating experience. However, what has happened, I think, in the attrition of the admin corps, and the turnover in the non-admin corps, is that the generalised culture of "regular" non-admin editors has moved further forward towards less acceptance of a culture prevalent 10-15 years ago. I think also the rise in editors from non-English speaking backgrounds and from the Global South has caused complexities for those with limited experience outside the anglosphere. The statistics above on the vote for G87's RRFA show an interesting split between admins and non-admins, and within admins. Non-admins were almost overwhelmingly (close to 2/3) of the view that G87 had been given an almost exceptionaly long period to improve, had not, and no longer held their trust. 5/8s of admins, appeared (and comments here also seem to confirm this) split between solidarity for one of their own and displeasure with the recall process. 3/8s admins were in alignment with the majority of non-admins. FWIW, I'm not trying to point to some grand schism; A 38/62 admin split on these numbers is not that profound - if just 9 admins had changed their vote from support to oppose it would have been a 50/50 split. To reiterate, I'm not suggesting that there is a great gap between admins and non-admins, but there does appear to be some gap when it comes to generalised views around the expected behaviour of admins. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 01:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
I don't disagree, and in effect I was sort of saying the same thing in terms of the attrition of the admin corps and turnover in non-admin corps. FWIW, I do think there are some generalised feelings about admins among non-admins; for example, admins are less likely to face sanction than non-admins. How true that actually is I'm not sure and the point would be that a group of people already tested in commnuity trust (ie RFA) are less likely to breach that trust. However, comments in the G87 RRFA and the strength of the vote suggest there are (wrongly or rightly) widely felt perceptions of disparity. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 01:53, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
I'm currently compiling the data to get some statistics about voters in Graham's re-RFA. I'm a bit less than halfway through so it might be a couple of days before I can present any results. However among the first 113 support voters the maximum account age (on the day the re-RFA started) was 7919 days (21 years), the minimum was 212 days and the average was 4785 days (13 years). I have no data yet for neutral or oppose voters so cannot say how that compares. Thryduulf (talk) 02:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
Do you have a handy list of all voters for RFA? It should be simple enough to use a WP:QUARRY to find out all details about the voters if someone finds an easy enough scrape of who each user is Soni (talk) 05:51, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
I think about 6 editors were missed by the tool you linked, but it should not change overall patterns much so we can just use this as is. Soni (talk) 07:24, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
Prepare to not be surprised. Supporters/Opposers:
Median registration date 2008/2014 <-- Behold, Misplaced Pages's generational shift
At a quick glance, it seemed like editors with more edits were more likely to support while editors with fewer edits (with one exception) were more likely to oppose. - Enos733 (talk) 07:54, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
Given a single admin action may involve multiple edits, it's not so surprising the supporters' list possibly reflects a group with higher edit counts. Personally, I'd be more inclined to draw conclusions from length of registration rather than edit count. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 09:11, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
my very, very rapid count - supports 35/117 (30%) less than 10 years old, opposes 67/141 (48%) less than 10 years old. In absolute numbers, 10+ year accounts were 82 supports, 74 opposes - actually quite even. What was crucial was younger accounts. It does confirm my sense of gaps between "older" and "younger" generations in regard to perceptions of tolerable admin behaviour. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 09:50, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
We have had two recalls as of now. The people signing the recall were by and large not trolls, vandals, people blocked by that admin, ... but regular editors in good standing and without a grudge. One of these recalls has been supported by the RRFA afterwards, and the other admin decided not to go for a RRFA. There is zero evidence that the process is flawed or leads to results not wanted by the community at large. While minor issues need working out (things like "should it be closed immediately the moment it reaches 25 votes or not"), the basic principles and method have so far not produced any reason to fundamentally "fix" the issue. That the process highlights a gap between parts of the community (see e.g. the Graham RRFA) doesn't mean that the process needs fixing. The process only would need fundamental fixing if we would get successful recalls which would then be overwhelmingly reversed at RRFA, showing that the recall was frivolous, malicious, way too easy... Not now though. Fram (talk) 09:24, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
I agree with Fram. There is not any evidence that the recall process is reaching outcomes that are not supported by the Community (I voted Oppose on the Graham RRFA; I don't know how I would have voted on a Fastily RRFA). Small fixes to the process if supported would not be indicative of the process itself being fundamentally flawed. Abzeronow (talk) 21:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
I believe that desysoppings for cause should only happen when there is objective evidence of misconduct. My main concern about the recall process is that it may be wielded against administrators who are willing to take actions that are controversial, yet necessary. Examples of actions that have got administrators hounded include (1) closing contentious and politically charged AFD discussions; (2) blocking an "WP:UNBLOCKABLE" editor who is being disruptive or making personal attacks; (3) stepping up to protect a politically charged article to stop an edit war. None of these actions are administrator misconduct, but in a heated dispute the side that has an admin rule in their disfavor may quickly resort to punishing said administrator by starting a recall petition, and in a dispute involving many editors, getting to 25 may be easy. Even if that petition fails, it is so unpleasant that it may have a chilling effect on admin involvement even when needed. Sjakkalle(Check!)21:14, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
In which case, a RRFA might be overwhelmingly in favor of the administrator and thus vindicate the administrator. I would definitely vote in support of an administrator if those any of those three were the impetus behind a recall. I also trust our editors, and so far, the recall process has worked as intended. Abzeronow (talk) 21:50, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
It's driving me up the wall that people keep saying that the process has worked as intended. Come back and tell me that, after you can link to an RRfA for Fastily that resulted in whatever result you define as working as intended. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
Choosing not to do an RRfA was their own choice, particularly if Fastily thought it wouldn't be successful. It was also their choice to make no attempt whatsoever to defend the reams of evidence presented against them in the recall petition of their negative actions toward the editing community. So, yes, Fastily as well was an example of the process working as intended. Silverseren22:08, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
Or perhaps they just thought "well, I've put XX years into this and a load of random people with rationales ranging from reasonable to utterly non-existent have told me I'm not fit to do it, so f*** you". If that's the case, I don't blame them. Black Kite (talk)22:13, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
He was going to lose if he didn't apologize, and he didn't want to apologize. That simple. As others have said, that was his choice to make, and I respect it. Levivich (talk) 22:28, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
Except that he did apologize, although there were differing views of whether that apology was enough. This oversimplification is what's wrong with the way discussions happen in this process. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:34, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
He woulda had to apologize more, then, including for the stuff that came out during the petition, and any other stuff that may have come out during the RRfA. He woulda had to answer questions about it, make promises, etc., basically go through what Graham went through, and realize that even that (answering questions, making promises) might not be enough (as it wasn't for Graham). It's not at all irrational for someone to choose not go through that. Being an admin isn't worth all that to some (e.g., to me), especially if you might not get it despite your best efforts. Levivich (talk) 22:44, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
No, those two things are not the same. If you want to know why I think the process worked, it's because it stopped disruption, did it faster than Arbcom, and I think with less drama (though admittedly the third one is purely subjective and speculative). Levivich (talk) 22:56, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
Linking might help though. It doesn't seem to be on Misplaced Pages talk:Administrator recall/Graham87, Misplaced Pages talk:Administrator recall/Fastily, or on Misplaced Pages talk:Administrator recall, so it's a bit hard to know what "the petition page" is. Do you mean your 00:39, 13 November 2024 (UTC) reply to A smart kitten? The one that ended with "Does this rise to the level of requiring, for me, a desysop? I'm leaning towards no." And others leaned towards "yes", it's not as if people couldn't draw different conclusions from your post or could disagree with things you said without actually replying directly to you. You didn't contradict the evidence, you personally didn't find it severe or convincing enough, that's all. That doesn't show that the process needs fixing though, just because enough people disagreed with your opinion and the result wasn't put to the test. Fram (talk) 09:28, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
Fram, the context of what I said was clearer before there were all those intervening edits, but yes, you correctly identified the post I meant as the one that ended with the words that you quoted. Here's the diff: . From where I'm sitting, your analysis here of how people reacted to what I posted is, well, not convincing enough. There was a lot of discussion about the evidence that I analyzed, back and forth. When the editor (A smart kitten) who originally posted the evidence came back with the additional information that I requested, the discussion was still very active. I provided a very detailed examination, point-by-point, of each individual claim made in that evidence. Yes, it was based upon my opinions, but I drew specific conclusions, and justified those conclusions. And nobody came back and said that they thought anything in my analysis was incorrect, nor did anyone who signed on the basis of that evidence before my comment come back and reaffirm their signature, rejecting my analysis. If you think somebody actually did, you can provide a diff of it, but I can assure you that you won't find one. And that wasn't because the petition discussion had come to a close, because it continued for several more days after I posted that. After a whole lot of back-and-forth about that particular evidence, nobody said that they found errors in anything that I said. But a couple more editors did sign the petition after that, with brief comments saying, in some cases, that they decided to sign after reading that particular evidence.
So the question, in the light of your comment to me, becomes whether those later signers did so because they carefully read all of the discussion, including my critique, and decided to sign, implicitly having decided that my critique was unconvincing – or whether they signed after only a superficial read and had never really engaged with my critique. I cannot prove that it was the latter, and you cannot prove that it was the former. But given that their signatures came only with brief comments, and nobody found reason to actually mention that they had rejected my critique, I'm pretty skeptical of the former. And that's a problem. The petition process does not, of course, require that anyone had to say explicitly that they disagreed with me, either, but that's a shortcoming of the discussion process. A desysop via ArbCom makes room for careful examination of the facts. The petition did not. This is a half-assed way of driving someone off Misplaced Pages. And I'm arguing for a more deliberative process. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
I have to say I don’t get the recall process either. I support admin accountability but just having an arbitrary number of “support” votes, no “oppose” votes, and I guess a time limit instead of consensus forming seems… extremely weird and out of step with how virtually everything else is done on Enwiki. Dronebogus (talk) 10:56, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
The intended point of the recall petition is not to find consensus or to determine whether the admin has lost the trust of the community, has abused the tools or anything like that. The intended point of the petition is only to prove that a re-RFA is not frivolous. The Re-RFA is where consensus is formed from support and oppose, analysis of evidence, etc. Think of it in judicial terms, the petition is at the pre-trial stage and simply aims to answer the question "are there 25 people who think there is a case to answer?" if the answer is no, then it ends there. If the answer is yes, then you can please innocent or guilty. If you plead guilty you take the sentence (desysopping) and move on. If you plead innocent there is a trial and the jury finds you either innocent or guilty by majority verdict. This is an imperfect analogy of course, but it hopefully helps explain the concept.
It didn't work like that in either of the two that we've had, but that's a fault with the implementation not with the concept. Thryduulf (talk) 12:57, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
The problem is, the concept itself makes no sense. Nearly everything on Misplaced Pages is decided one of three ways: consensus democracy that must be approved/vetoed by an admin (most non-trivial issues); WP:BOLD editing, informal discussion, or admin fiat (trivial issues); or arbitration (extreme fringe cases). This resembles none of those. It’s like arbitration, only everyone can be an arb, and instead of voting yay or nay to take the case you collect signatures to see if there’s general support for a case? Dronebogus (talk) 13:11, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
The request stage of arbitration is the closest analogy, but it is indeed a process not used anywhere else on Misplaced Pages. That doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. It's sole purpose is intended to be a check against frivolous requests so that an admin doesn't have to go through re-RFA just because they pissed off a single editor once by making an objectively correct decision. The actual decision is intended to made by consensus democracy at the Re-RFA. Thryduulf (talk) 13:33, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
I think a limited vote based on a formula like “after 7 days a minimum of 2/3rds of people must support for re-RFA” would be less opaque than trying to start a Wiki-Minyan? Dronebogus (talk) 09:26, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
That sounds like skipping the petition, and going right to the RRFA, or running two successive RRFA's. I have not been involved in any of this but it is not really hard to understand why there is the two-step process of: 1) calling the question, and 2) deciding the issue. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:52, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
Honestly I think it should just go straight to RRFA, and if there’s enough opposition fast enough it can just be WP:SNOW closed. We don’t, for example, ask for 25 signatures to start and AfD discussion in order to weed out frivolous nominations— it’s patently obvious when a nomination is garbage in most cases. RRFA is clearly a last resort, and no established, good faith user is likely to abuse this kind of process so egregiously we need a two-step failsafe. Dronebogus (talk) 12:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
In other words any user should be able to start a binding RRFA on any admin at any time? No, no thank you... – Joe (talk) 12:16, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
Not any time, there should be a policy that steps must already been taken and failed, ideally multiple times, similar to ArbCom. And not any user, since the starter should probably be autoconfirmed at the absolute minimum, and probably be required to be in goof standing, have X edits, been on WP X years, and been active during the last year. If it was unambiguously required that an RRFA follow these rules or be rejected (with filing an improper case being a sanctionable offense) I don’t think anyone would realistically start a frivolous case. Dronebogus (talk) 12:33, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
Well, we also don't require a !vote to create an article but we do for an admin. I also don't think it is likely that 'any experienced user' has experience in making an RRFA -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:34, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
An admin is essentially just voted into office; they should be voted out of office in an identical way. There’s no need for some kind of novel additional process on top of that. That’s all I’m saying. Dronebogus (talk) 12:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
I think the basic complaint here is that the 25-vote threshold is too easy to meet, and therefore it is unfair to require an affirmative consensus for the admin to retain the tools. I think the 25-vote threshold is fine for weeding out frivolous nominations, but correspondingly I think we should make it harder to remove adminship, i.e. make 50-60% the discretionary range for removing adminship. This would make it in line with most of our other processes, where a slight supermajority is required to make changes, and no consensus defaults to the status quo. Whereas under the current recall system, 25 votes with no opportunity to object are enough to make removal of adminship the status quo, which seems a bit harsh. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠19:53, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
I think the 25-vote threshold, because it’s so easy to meet, is essentially pointless because it will only weed out extreme outlier cases that I don’t believe will ever happen enough to be a serious concern. We should just have a supermajority vote requirement, and if we must have a petition it should be a lot higher than 25. Dronebogus (talk) 16:06, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
We don't have evidence the 25-vote threshold is easy to meet. Of the two recalls, one only hit 25 due to a bad block during the petition period. CMD (talk) 16:14, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
One more reason I don’t like this: it’s extremely important, but we’re using it to prototype this weird system not used anywhere else on Enwiki and possibly Wikimedia (if you have examples of off-wiki precedent please share them). Dronebogus (talk) 16:18, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
Have to try new things at some point. But CMD is right, from all the evidence we do have, it looks about right. Where as there is zero evidence that a higher number is required or helpful. PackMecEng (talk) 17:09, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
It's usually called Approval voting when it's used, though that might not be precisely the right name. It's used all over the Wikimedia movement. At least until recently, both grant requests and the (technical) community wishlist used petition-like voting processes that encouraged support and disregarded opposition votes. That is, if there were 25 people supporting something and you showed up to say "* Oppose because WMF Legal will have a heart attack if you do this", then the request might be rejected because of the information you provided, and your comment might change the minds of potential/future supporters, but it would never be counted as a vote of 25 to 1. It's still counted as a list of 25 supporters. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:53, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
The original Phase I Proposal was directly written as adapting dewiki's recall policies into enwiki. I believe the Italian wikipedia also has a threshold to RRFA style process. And I think spanish too? I might be getting some projects confused. But it's directly used in recall in other projects - That's how it was recommended here (and then adapted after). Soni (talk) 18:58, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
Arbitration election commissioners are chosen by collecting solely supporting statements. Once upon a time, the arbitration election RFCs also consisted of proposals that commenters approved, without any option to oppose. Requests for comments on user conduct also used a format where support for expressed viewpoints were collected, without opposing statements. edited 18:32, 4 December 2024 (UTC) to add another example isaacl (talk) 19:50, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
That being said, different wikis have radically different governance structures. For example, Spanish Misplaced Pages is apparently much more democratic compared to Enwiki (in the literal sense, not just in the sense of “egalitarian” or “un-tyrannical”). Dronebogus (talk) 03:26, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
That any news outlet or source that refers to a government as a "regime" be considered not reliable for facts about that regime, except for attributed statements.
This would, for example, rule out using a significant proportion of reliable sources covering contemporary North Korea, Afghanistan, Cuba and Iran as well as countless historical governments (e.g. Saddam Hussein's Iraq, Franco's Spain, Gaddafi's Libya, etc). This is clearly hasn't been fully thought through. Thryduulf (talk) 04:17, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
Bad idea. A biased source does not mean unreliable. See WP:BIASED. However, it is indeed good indicator that a in-text attribution may be needed. Ca15:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
I think this does get at something which is a problem in Misplaced Pages. It just doesn't quite hit the mark. And that is that there is a core assumption in Misplaced Pages's handling of news media sources that they are largely independent and that a deviation from editorial independence represents a deviation from best practices. However this often leads to Misplaced Pages simply assuming the biases of the New York Times and other major media outlets. But there has been an accumulation of multitudinous issues - one of the most recent being accounts of Jeff Bezos influencing the Washington Post to withhold an endorsement of Kamala Harris - that demonstrate that the idea of editorial independence is frankly quaint.
This, of course, then creates problems with adjudicating those sources that have previously been demonstrated to be non-independent (see for example WP:XINHUA) as the rationale on Misplaced Pages for treating Xinhua differently from, let's say, the BBC or Al Jazeera for that matter largely depends upon the assumption of independence of those outlets that are not aligned with enemy states of the US/UK hegemony.
My personal opinion is that the use of news sources on an encyclopedia should be far more limited than it presently is as, in my case, it's not that I trust Xinhua (I don't) but that I don't trust any media outlet to produce material appropriate for a neutral encyclopedia. I don't think a "regime" test is going to improve the quality of pages that over-rely on news media. But I would suggest that it's another indication that Misplaced Pages needs to be far more critical of what news sources we depend on and in what contexts. Simonm223 (talk) 19:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
No, editorial independence is not the reason for a source being considered reliable or not. Many sources are biased, or influenced by specific governments/interest groups, and are still considered reliable for topics other than the groups influencing them (in which case, by definition, they would not be an independent source). A history of disinformation (actually making up stuff, not just reporting it in a biased way) pushes the source towards being considered unreliable.WP:XINHUA, which you link, demonstrates this clearly, stating There is consensus that Xinhua is generally reliable for factual reporting except in areas where the government of China may have a reason to use it for propaganda or disinformation. In the same way, we shouldn't rely on the Washington Post for topics related to Jeff Bezos. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 20:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
The example I gave wasn't one of a story about Jeff Bezos or a topic related to Jeff Bezos unless one contends (which, I will grant there's a case to be made) that anything to do with a US election is ultimately about the interests of the Billionaire class. But, you see, that's my point. Pretty much any media outlet will distort truth, spread disinformation or, at the most basic, bury stories that aren't to the interests of their handlers. And I do want to stress that the stories that are not covered is a key method through which media occludes truth. The only real question is whether the handler is a politbureau or a rich guy. I don't think one of those is better than the other. Simonm223 (talk) 20:12, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
The fact that a news media is influenced to not publish a story makes it biased, but not unreliable. Having a point of view when reporting (or choosing not to report) stories is what every media does, and is different from outright making up disinformation. And that is the difference between bias and unreliability. It's not about who the handler is, rich guys can also own unreliable news sources. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 20:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
I mean we certainly agree about that rich guy. I just think Misplaced Pages is too fast to treat news sources as reliable out of convenience rather than any real confidence in the quality of information. Simonm223 (talk) 20:20, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
I agree with Simonm223. I just can't understand why an encyclopedia should be largely based on news sources rather than peer-reviewed academic articles or books. For a start most of them are primary sources, by any definition other than Misplaced Pages's. This is dumbing-down at its worst. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:09, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
See the definition (specifically 2(c) and 2(d)). Regime is a synonym for "administration" or "government" (when used to describe, as example, the Biden administration or the Tory government). It makes zero sense whatsoever to block sources who use a synonym for administration just because one person feels it has negative connotations. Misplaced Pages is not the place to practice redefining words or limiting their use based on their worst definitions or connotations. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me!05:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
Prescriptivism is dead. See examples. There is zero percent usage in modern times that isn't derogatory; literally no one says unironically "our regime", "the regimes of our allies", or "regimes we'd like to do business with". Skullers (talk) 08:29, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
I agree in as much as "government" would always be a better term in any use case I can think of.
However, your polemics here have been consistently superficial and unhelpful. It seems almost self-parody to aphorize "prescriptivism is dead" amid seeking to categorically deprecate sources based on the sole criterion of whether they use a particular word, citing what you feel is the only correct definition of said word in practice. Remsense ‥ 论09:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
The attraction of the word "regime" to headline writers is often that it is simply shorter than "government" or "administration", rather than anything to do with its connotations. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:48, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
While I understand the rationale for this proposal, IMO it goes way too far. I would agree that it's important to keep in mind when a source is using biased language and consider using in-text attribution in these cases, but certainly it's not worth a blanket ban.
Furthermore, it's often the case that when the news media uses negative language about a topic, that's because that negative language is the consensus. For instance, nobody would really question the phrase "the Nazi regime" or even probably "the genocidal Nazi regime" from a reliable source, and for good reason. When everyone agrees on a contentious label that implies that in that specific case the label is not, in fact, contentious. Loki (talk) 01:21, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
This proposal is rather absurd. You can’t declare a source unreliable based on a word, especially one that’s frequently used as a harmless rhetorical flourish. What should we ban next? Sources that use swearing? Sources that use subjective adjectives like “best” or “amazing”? Dronebogus (talk) 13:16, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
I say we should also ban all sources that use the word "slam". Equally as absurd, but more likely to actually hit unreliable sources. Lee Vilenski13:58, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The Harald Winter article was created by X3ntar as a port from the German Misplaced Pages article (found here: Harald Winter). The English article consists primarily of poor English translation and promotional content, and when I was looking through the history of the article, all I saw originally were red-linked accounts created a short while before their edits to the article, leading me to begin researching to source a WP:SPI case. After almost an hour of looking into this, I don't think this is canvassing, meatpuppetry, or anything like that. More likely it's a case of German editors wanting to update the English version of the article. However, I couldn't find any policies or essays that gave advice on how to handle cross-wiki contributions or page creations. Is there a common consensus reached prior? Sirocco745 (talk) 04:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
This doesn't happen very often, so I don't think there are any advice pages. In general, it would be a lovely thing if people who created an article in one language could then do a semi-decent translation into another language.
I'm aware of two multi-editor cases of that. The first is that when a WMF staffer mentioned writing her first article (in English), a handful of staffers who are not native English speakers (but who are experienced Wikipedians) translated that into their native language as a way of encouraging her to keep editing as a volunteer. This probably happened about a decade ago, and it was very sweet.
Okay, thanks for responding. I'm going to think about what can be done to assist editors in future scenarios and draft some thoughts for an essay in my sandbox later. I don't believe that creating a policy proposal is worth it right now, since as you've observed, cross-wiki article copy-pasting isn't a major concern due to its relative uncommonness. I'm considering writing up an essay on the subject instead, maybe also creating a template later on to go at the top of an article that says something along the lines of "This article was cross-posted from the "XYZ Misplaced Pages" and is currently undergoing translation, discussion, and improvement." Sirocco745 (talk) 02:56, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
Topics on Jehova's Witnesses - article spamming issues
Polish Misplaced Pages is experiencing and uptick in Jehova's Witnesses topics article spamming, surrepticious edits pushing JW terminology etc. One of current problems is the spamming of separate articles for every "convention", which is an annual (I think) event with a theme and about 100k visitors. We are discussing their notability right now, and I was wondering whether English Misplaced Pages already discussed and cleaned this, which would be helpful? If you remember any topic discussing notability or monitoring of Jehova's Witnesses related topics, and possibly deleted articles. (I'm not sure if there is any sensible search method of deleted articles archive/log? Can I use any wildcards in Special:Log/delete? It doesn't seem to work.) Tupungato (talk) 12:04, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
@Tupungato: I'm probably one of the best people you could talk to about this. I've been trying to remove the emphasis on primary sources when JWs are talked about throughout enwiki. The Jehovah's Witnesses article used to cite the denomination's magazines 100+ times. I fixed that. Unfortunately I don't speak Polish but I have an extensive book collection on secondary sources about JWs if you ever wanted me to look something up for you. Clovermoss🍀(talk)14:09, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
In regards to notability, we don't really have articles on individual conventions. I think a few are (or should be) mentioned at the History of Jehovah's Witnesses if secondary sources talked about them, but otherwise that sort of thing definitely wouldn't meet our notability guideline for standalone articles. I'm not sure what the standards at the Polish Misplaced Pages are because I know various projects have different standards. If you're looking for AfDs, the most recent one I can think of is Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Watch Tower Society publications (2nd nomination). I've mostly been focusing on improving the content we have as there's only a handful of people editing the JW topic area and a lot of what was written a decade ago uses almost exclusively primary sources. Clovermoss🍀(talk)14:23, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Titles of articles about false theories or accusations
This seems to be a little bit inconsistent. Some have "conspiracy theory" in the title, clearly stating they are false (I don't think there's any possible way any even remotely possible theory or accusation would have the words "conspiracy theory" in it). Some go even further outright stating "myth" (not unwarranted if it is clearly false).
Vaccines and autism (Note: the fraudulent study that begun this conspiracy is titled Lancet MMR autism fraud, not using the word "study" or something not indicating it was a fraud in the title, which it used to, I don't know when it was changed)
Is there some kind of policy regarding whether to include "conspiracy theory", "myth", etc in article titles about false theories or accusations? </MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont /> 12:37, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
Generally, all articles should be titled neutrally and in line with their common name, where they have one. If the significant majority of reliable sources do not describe something as a conspiracy theory or myth (even if they are false) then our article titles should not. In most cases where "myth" and "conspiracy" appear in the article titles they are descriptive as there is no single common name for the topic(s) covered. Consistency is part of the article titles policy but it is only one criterion and generally not regarded as the most important. Thryduulf (talk) 12:50, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
I see two situations here: one where the article title wouldn’t work without the addition of “conspiracy theory” (i.e “International Jewish” is a non sequitur fragment); and one where the title would work (“999 phone charging” makes sense on its own). We don’t need to state something is a myth in the title if the article explains it’s a myth; there’s enough RFK Jr. types whining at Talk:Turbo cancer to prove that much. Dronebogus (talk) 13:10, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
Agree with Thryduulf. We should use titles that are considered the common name for the topic and that fall with the article title policy, and then after that any necessarily disambiguation steps to differentiate from other topics. And as long as the lede sentence or lede itself (as in the case of Vaccines and autism) is clear what is legitimate science or fact and what is a conspiracy theory, pseudoscience, or disproven, then its not as important for the title to reflect that as well. Masem (t) 13:31, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
Indeed there are some editors on the sceptic side who seem to feel that it is necessary to explicitly and stridently describe something as pseudoscientific at every possible opportunity. We don't need to bash our readers over the head with it, indeed doing so can be contrary to NPOV (e.g. when reliable sources disagree and/or take a more nuanced approach). Thryduulf (talk) 14:39, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
I think that what leads to adding "conspiracy theory", "myth", etc. generally boils down to whether the topic is one that perennially annoys the regular page watchers at WP:FRINGE/N. So, for instance, Fan Death isn't caused "the Fan Death Myth" largely because there's not a large proportion of editors rushing to the Fan Death article to say "this is a real serious problem guys". Simonm223 (talk) 14:48, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
I think that’s a genuine problem that we should probably address— some anti-fringe editors are among the most aggressive contributors I’ve encountered, probably because too many “skeptics” are also culture warriors who need to right great wrongs by doing everything short of calling something “stupid” and its adherents “idiots”, which of course actually damages our credibility. Dronebogus (talk) 15:09, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
I'm all for preventing the spread of quack medicine and Ufology silliness on the encyclopedia but, generally, the fringe noticeboard is poorly equipped to address assessments of what research is fringe outside of medicine, history and archaeology. I think some of these anomalous titling conventions kind of point toward that specificity of scope. Simonm223 (talk) 15:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
FRINGE should really only apply to topics where objective research have thoroughly debunked the notion, and not to areas where questions remain open or where debunking may never be possible at which point Undue becomes the answer. For example, whike most science rejects the COVID lab theory, it's still near difficult to devisicely conclude that the lab theory is not posdible, so we should avoid calling it fringe but clearly note the weight of experts that have dismissed it. — Masem (t) 16:54, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
Hmm, there is a difference between "theories that are scientific, plausible and supported only an extreme minority of sources but have not been/are unlikely to be conclusively disproven", "theories that are scientific, were previously mainstream but no longer are, but are still supported by an extreme minority of sources as they have not been conclusively disproven". "theories that are scientific but implausible to the extent that mainstream sources do not feel the need to conclusively disprove them.", "theories which are scientific and have been conclusively disproven, but still have some supporters", "theories which are pseudoscientific" and "theories which are neither scientific nor pseudoscientific". I've seen FRINGE used to describe all of these cases, which is unhelpful. Thryduulf (talk) 17:08, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
I think part of the issue is: there is a Kennedy assassination, but this article is about the conspiracy theories; there is grooming but this article is about about a conspiracy theory; there is phone charging but this article is about a myth; there are international Jewish organizations but this article is not about that, etc. So, the article title is limited to (and limits) the scope of the article. And other times, 'myth' or 'conspiracy theor' is in a common name for the subject. Also note, you really can't tell why an article is called 'this' instead of 'that', unless it has actually been discussed. Article title decisions are made in a decentralized manner, and may never be revisited. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:46, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
Alan raises a good point… when there actually are theories that postulate a conspiracy, then it is not POV to call them “conspiracy theories”. That is a neutral descriptive title, not a pejorative one. Blueboar (talk) 13:32, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
I am not sure if that's true, that those that subscribe to a theory that is based on conspiracy would necessary call it a conspiracy theory themselves. Eg those that claim there is a deep state aren't usually calling that a conspiracy theory, but a theory about conspiracies, if that makes sense. Masem (t) 15:46, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
I would like to add that, while I would like standardized article titles and would also like if some anti-FRINGE editors dropped the “angry atheist” stereotype, I think this is an exceedingly trivial issue that does not need to be “solved”. Dronebogus (talk) 16:03, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
New users required to cite sources when creating an article
This wishlist item proposes a hard edit filter which would change citation policy for new users. We've repeatedly discussed requiring sources, and the consensus has been not to require them; per current policy, articles must be on notable topics and statements must be citable, but neither need be cited.
I know changes that affect new editors typically don't ignite as much interest as those that affect established editors, but they are in some ways more important; anything that affects our retention rate will eventually substantially affect the number of active editors, and the nature of their editing.
More broadly, it might be good to set limits on policy changes done through a wishlist survey on another wiki; big changes need broader discussion. HLHJ (talk) 01:05, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
I strongly oppose implementing this on en-wiki. This is not the sort of change that the broader community should be allowed to dictate to local communities. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:22, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
It's just a wish. Anyone can male one. We don't know whether it will ever be implemented (community wishlists don't exactly have a good track record), never mind turned on on enwiki. – Joe (talk) 05:52, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
As Joe says, a wishlist item is a long way from becoming something that works. We don’t have need for limits on changes; it is very rare for any changes to be pushed on en.wiki. Those that are are large-scale changes that affect all wikis (think Vector2022 or the upcoming IP masking), and the community here is usually very aware of these ahead of time. If wishlist items turn into tools the wiki can use, they tend to require local activation, as different projects have different needs. (En.wiki for example already has WP:NPP, which will see any new pages, which may include pages that aren’t meant to have sources, like disambiguation pages.) CMD (talk) 08:17, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
The WMF Community wishlists in the past have actually had some impressive successes, particularly in 2018 for NPP's Page Curation extension improvements. It is not all that rare for any changes to be pushed on en.wiki; two slightly earlier community driven major policies largely contributed - at the time - to reducing the flow of sewage in the new page feed: the 2016 NPP user right, and after a 7 year battle with the WMF, the 2018 ACPERM. However, the number of new registrations has since grown again by users whose first intention above all else is to create a new article by hook or crook with little or no regard for notability, relevance, UPE, and spam policies. NPP has lost many of its prolific, skilled patrollers and coordinators either through burn-out and/or the constant whining either from users whose inappropriate articles have been consigned to the queues for the various trash cans or draft space, or have been driven away for good by other (non NPP) back office regulars' complaints, for the sake of complaining, over a couple of misplaced CSDs or AfDs out of thousands.
The NPP backlog sawtooth profile looks menacing - it should be a regular low-value straight line. It is well known common knowledge that NPP is hopelessly overburdened and can no longer sensibly cope with even the minimum suggested criteria for patrolling new pages. The best way to ensure that the WMF's flagship project - the one that draws all the donations - becomes an untrustworthy resource full of useless and corrupt articles, is to sit back and do nothing and let WP become a mire of misinformation and spam. Misplaced Pages has already become the buck of media satire with "If you believe Misplaced Pages, you'll believe anything". The quest is therefore for any measures that will tighten up the article quality at the source of creation.
Although they are aware of them, as usual the WMF Growth Team has played down and resisted addressing these issues in favour of pursuing other, and expensive initiatives of their own design which in the NPP realm remain ineffective. It's the responsibility of the WMF to ensure new users are aware of the rules at the point of registration.
The NPP team has handed solutions to the WMF on a plate, which at the same time will not only reduce the tide of rubbish, but most importantly, encourage the good faith new users to offer articles that have a fair chance of being published. All this project needs is to be written up in MediaWiki source code, but of course short of a mutiny by the community, the WMF will not entertain any ideas that they did not think of themselves and can collect the accolades for.
The "anyone can edit" principle is not a get out of jail free card; it should be quoted in its full context: 'Anyone can edit as long as they play by the rules'. For once and for all, just make those basic rules clear for bona fide new registrants, and help them comply. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:53, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages has already become the buck of media satire with "If you believe Misplaced Pages, you'll believe anything
This is just rhetorically dishonest. When people say this they are generally referring to vandalism, hoaxes, and information on high-profile articles, not the stuff that goes through NPP.
Like, just think about this for a second. Think about the kind of misinformation people generally disseminate and what it is about. Almost always, it's about things people already care about, which means things we have articles on. COVID. Political stuff. Current events. Not obscure new articles. Gnomingstuff (talk) 17:51, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
@Gnomingstuff : Almost always, it's about things people already care about, which means things we have articles on. COVID. Political stuff. Current events. Not obscure new articles. This is unfortunately not true as 800 patrollers will confirm. NPP needs all the help it can get. Why not enroll at the NPPSCHOOL, get qualified, apply for the user right and help out? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:43, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
I think you're misinterpreting my point. I realize that NPP obviously gets a lot of junk and unsourced stuff. But this is not the junk that makes Misplaced Pages "the butt of media satire." The media satire is about things people actually look up, such as high-profile politicians, major scientific topics, etc.
That doesn't mean that patrolling new pages is not useful, and I am glad people are doing it (I personally doon't have time to take on any more responsibilities and don't foresee that changing). But it's not an area of the project that tends to escape containment, and so should be done on its own merits without trying to make it about "what would the press think?" Gnomingstuff (talk) 07:56, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Without commenting on the merits of the core portion of this proposal, I think it's worth pointing out that certain types of mainspace pages don't need and indeed are expected not to have references. You could try to get around that by excluding pages tagged with the DISAMBIG magic word, SIA templates, etc. But that won't work if they don't properly format the page common for new users; I don't have any statistics handy for often new users create those type of pages, but I suspect its a large enough number that it should be taken into consideration. 184.152.68.190 (talk) 04:23, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
One of the commentators on the original proposal pointed out that articles created through AfC in practice are required to have references, so this would not actually change anything for new editors, who have to use AfC anyway. So it would perhaps it would apply to somewhat more experienced editors.
There is a widespread belief that references are required for every statement, let alone article. This is usually applied to edits by newcomers, who get scared off when a solid but unreferenced contribution is deleted without trying to WP:JUSTFIXIT, and who would learn how to cite if it was instead tagged "citation needed" or a cite was added by another editor (we have studied this). But I've seen a solid-but-uncited edit by an admin removed by an IP, too; this is much less serious.
There is also confusion between notable and has citations that establish notability. I recently posted an unreferenced stub article in the mainspace, and it was draftified and AfCd within the hour. The topic was notable, meaning it would not have been deleted if listed at AfD, and I think I remember an explicit statement that draftifying was an alternative to deletion and could only be used if articles met deletion criteria. The point here is not the individual editors who did this in good faith; the point is that the ensuing discussion made it clear that most of the people on the AfC board thought it reasonable to draftify any unsourced article.
We need to make a conscious choice to either:
change policy to require citations on every article (meaning we delete all the articles at Category:Articles lacking sources, or have a massive sourcing drive before the policy comes into effect) and every edit made by a new editor
find a way to teach editors to cite unsourced things, and delete them only if the are unsourcable, which is current policy.
This is not a new discussion. There is no consensus to do bullet point one, and it is very unlikely to get any. At the same time, the existence of older unsourced articles is not a good reason for new articles to lack sourcing. The example process given seems fine, the article was given time to develop in draft space and was put into mainspace when ready. CMD (talk) 00:04, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Am I right to say, then, that you favour a policy of "all new articles must have sources" (regardless of whether the editor is new)? How about "all statements added by new editors must have sources"? HLHJ (talk) 15:57, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
You might be right about my personal policy within some nuance, but the community has decided not to draw a firm line for sourcing but instead to keep a slightly fuzzier set of guidelines. This won't be changed by developments in WMF-developed tools, which we can use or not as desired. CMD (talk) 05:39, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
@HLHJ I would be very surprised if your ever saw 'an explicit statement that draftifying was an alternative to deletion...'. If you did, I would like to see the diff. As we say on Misplaced Pages: 'Serious claims need serious sources'. No qualified New Page Patroller would ever contemplate doing such a thing and if they misused their tools to that end they would quickly lose that user right. Articles moved to draft are often pages which the creator has no intention of returning to and completing. If the the creator or a member of the community does not bring the draft or stub up to an acceptable artile within 6 months, it can be deleted under the special conditions at G13 and only under those conditions. Articles can only be physically deleted by an admin and the community is under no obligation to step in and rescue such articles. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:25, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Sorry, Kudpung; I think, in trying to be brief, I was incomprehensible. What I meant is that articles that aren't fit for the mainspace, and would thus be deleted if sent to AfD, can be draftified instead of listed at AfD (assuming that they are notable topics, capable of improvement). Articles that are fit for the mainspace, and would therefore not be deleted in AfD, should be left in the mainspace. In other words, we have one standard for whether articles are fit for the mainspace. AfD and NPP do not, or should not, have separate standards. HLHJ (talk) 16:04, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
AFD isn't supposed to be deleting articles about notable topics. WP:Deletion is not cleanup. I would also question this claim that we have any "standard for whether articles are fit for the mainspace". There appear to be a wide variety of views but no agreed-upon standard.
@HLHJ: MY bad. My humble apologies. In a moment of mental aberration I totally misread what you had written. In fact I crafted and co-crafted much of the policies surrounding NPP, pretty much wrote the instructions at WP:NPP and designed and rolled out the user right. A lot has been done recently to improve and clarify the notability standards, especially on some kinds of BLP, but it's an on-going work. NPP is triage, it does mean sending stubs to draft but it's a long way off sounding their death knell. Equally important at NPP is knowing what is is an encyclopedically relevant topic. The fact that something can be sourced does not necessarily mean it belongs here. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:03, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
No worries, apologies accepted as excessive! Text-only conversations are easy to misunderstand, there's less redundancy. My thanks to WAID: the WP:ATD-I subsection of Misplaced Pages:Deletion policy#Alternatives to deletion is, I think, what I was looking for, but I misremembered it, or it's changed. It says that a notable-topic article can be deleted if it "severely fails the verifiability or neutral point of view policies", which I think of as "an article that is worse than no article". Draftifying can be cleanup, and I think in practice is done at a lower threshold, but I'm not sure.
Unlike AfD, no reason is given when draftifying. I don't very much mind what standards we have for new articles, but if I fail to meet them I'd like to know how, so I can avoid it in future. If I'm confused, new editors certainly are.
I'm actually more worried about the editors who seem to be acting on the misconception that all statements (not just BLP), or at least all statements by new editors, need to be cited. I'm pretty sure this is terrible for editor retention (from anecdote and stats). What would be a good way to let them know that they needn't delete every new uncited statement as if it were vandalism? I'm told that this is a bit too complex for a user warning template; any other ideas? HLHJ (talk) 16:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Well... I've been told that one of the best ways to retain a new editor (at least for definitions of "retain" that are as simple as "get them to edit the next day") is to leave their uncited text in the article, and add a {{citation needed}} tag at the end of it.
Agreed; there are plenty of reverts of newbies that are fully justified. It's a specific and thus perhaps fixable problem when editors think "unsourced" is in itself an adequate justification for reverting. Newbies who figure out how to source correctly on their first edit are rare.
In an attempt to fix this one specific problem, I drafted a user warning template, and tried unsuccessfully to add information to introductory tutorials, and discussed UI design for adding of inline tags using semiautomatic tools (T209797), and putting one-click templates in VE (T55590) might help a bit. But I've not gotten anywhere with any of this. Any suggestions, however wild, would be most welcome. HLHJ (talk) 05:16, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Propose to create page of block discussion in noticeboards
Hello users, I propose having a page within noticeboards in the "general" section called "Block discussion" with a list of active discussions (which could be a review request, an unblock request or a discussion on whether to block the user) (to separate from administrators ' noticeboard, to clarify further, and that within the DB there are 5 topics, 1. Evidence (evidence that the user can provide as a reason for blocking, will be ignored in the review request), 2. Defense (defense of the blocked or accused against blocking or defending its review), 3. Comments (comments from anyone who is registered and at least 10 edits whether they agree, disagree or neutrality with blocking, a filter or unblocking), 4. Administrators' evaluation (where administrators agree or disagree with blocking, unblocking or filtering, this means that the conclusion depends on the administrators' assessment), 5. Conclusion (Conclusion of the discussion if the blocking, filtering or unblocking was approved).
NOTE: And there must be verification in the discussion to prevent someone from manipulating BD through sockpuppetry. JPPEDRA218:54, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
This means I'm proposing to separate "Misplaced Pages:Block Discussion" from "Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard" to be clearer JPPEDRA218:57, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
I understand the desire to split things off of AN/ANI, but this split poses several problems in practice. Quite frequently the proposal for a CBAN only arises after discussion has been ongoing for some time, and while it could be split off at that point it creates an extra bureaucratic step for questionable benefit. The other issue is that neither CBAN impositions nor their appeals are all that common, and separate noticeboards only tend to work well for things that have a fairly high frequency threshold. Arguably, if we had to do it over again AN wouldn't be the catchall, but at this point changing that is more trouble than its worth.
Granted, CBAN and appeal procedures could be tightened up separately without splitting anything off, but there's a longstanding preference for unstructured and somewhat messy discussions, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. 184.152.68.190 (talk) 17:03, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
@JPPEDRA2: Yes, you can just close it as withdrawn, if you so chose. But don't let me discourage you if you want to leave this open for input from others; every so often perrenial proposals do get implemented, including rather recently, though its usually better to get input at WP:VPI first.
Ok, so I won't cancel now, I will let others discuss it, if it is rejected, put it in those VPI or perrenial proposals that you mentioned, thanks non-registrered user. JPPEDRA219:20, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
We need someone and other users to discuss this whether they agree or disagree, I will wait.
@JPPEDRA2: Neutral pings are allowed, but be aware of WP:CANVASS; same with {{please see}} notices. Remember we're all volunteers so it may be a while until others weigh in, and sometimes discussions just don't gain traction for whatever reason. I'm pretty busy myself so I might attend to some things for another day or two here, but after that I'll probably be away for a while.
I'm not sure why, but I was invited here by a notice on my talk page. My initial impression is that this is a solution in search of a problem - largely per the IP editor's first comment. Very few AN(I) threads start off as a proposal for a ban, and divorcing such a proposal from the preceding discussion seems suboptimal, especially ban proposals often run concurrently with proposals for lesser restrictions. Appeals of bans being moved to a new page is an easier sell from a purely practical perspective but it would be a relatively little-used, for example there are none currently being discussed at either AN or ANI, and it would be less watched than either page (which is not a good thing for a community block appeal). Thryduulf (talk) 22:58, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
@JPPEDRA2: I see that you have very few mainspace edits and you haven't participated in any AN discussions. I recommend working on some easy mainspace edits at WP:TASKS instead of proposing massive changes to areas of the encyclopedia that you don't edit in. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:43, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
While I do agree that there are problems with AN/I I don't think those problems are that blocks are discussed there. Rather, as constructed I find it is generally bad at efficiently discussing and resolving urgent issues. I think we should have improved processes in place for promptly identifying and closing spurious cases so that they don't become drawn-out time sinks that often result in either nothing happening but an argument or, occasionally, a boomerang. I respect the WP:BOLD spirit of this proposal but I think it's unlikely to cure what ails AN:I. Simonm223 (talk) 01:02, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Is the current policy to ignore WP:CRYSTAL in regards to wording in articles related to upcoming officeholders? Donald Trump had the usage "will be inaugurated" until recently and JD Vance has He will resign on or before January 20, 2025, when he will be inaugurated as vice president of the United States. Similarly, infoboxes have "assuming office on X date". Should it not be "Scheduled to assume office on X date"? There seems to be disagreement on whether CRYSTAL applies since it is almost certain that these individuals will obtain their office barring some unforeseen event. I would like community input on this since if there is CRYSTAL, changes may need to be discussed here and implemented. Noah, BSBA23:32, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
Reliable sources appear to do both. For example:
AP article: "President-elect Donald Trump will take office on Jan. 20 after defeating Democratic candidate Kamala Harris."
NY Times: "Congress is scheduled to meet on Jan. 6, 2025, to count the Electoral College results, and Mr. Trump is set to be sworn into office two weeks later, on Jan. 20."
Personally, I think this is a distinction without a difference. In common usage, saying "X will do Y on Tuesday" is always subject to the caveat that something might occur that prevents X from doing Y on Tuesday. To quote the philosopher Søren Kierkegaard: "I shall certainly attend your party, but I must make an exception for the contingency that a roof tile happens to blow down and kill me; for in that case, I cannot attend." voorts (talk/contributions) 23:50, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
This type of stuff is what is outside the bounds of what WP:NOT#CRYSTAL has, eg we can start writing the article for the 2028 Summer Olympics as there's an extremely high certainity it will happen; there may be very extreme circumstances that may cause a change but the odds of those changing events are very low. The planned inaugeration is clearly of the same ilk. — Masem (t) 00:02, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
The part I noticed was Dates are not definite until the event actually takes place, as even otherwise-notable events can be cancelled or postponed at the last minute by a major incident. The Olympics articles always say scheduled rather than will take place. Noah, BSBA00:26, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
It does not matter in this case. If the inauguration of the next US executive is delayed, I’m confident those articles will be immediately updated. Infoboxes don't handle verbiage well. CMD (talk) 01:08, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
The higher the number of electees, the more likely it is that something happens to one of them. We have had representatives-elect die before assuming office. It's an issue of saying something is certain to occur rather than very likely to occur. We have nothing to tell us it's certain they assume office on X. Does this policy simply not apply to any officeholder period and we just state they will be inaugurated/assume office on X rather than scheduled to be inaugurated/assume office on X? Noah, BSBA02:20, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
The guidance on Misplaced Pages not being a collection of unverifiable speculation, rumors, or presumptions (from Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not) is guidance on content, with most of the discussion on that page being about what warrants an article. It's not guidance on writing style, so doesn't provide guidance in choosing between writing "X will happen" or "X is scheduled to happen", but whether the statement should be included at all. isaacl (talk) 19:58, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
I think it is reasonable that we should ask editors to use "is scheduled" or "is planned" instead of "will" in cases of near-confirmed future events. Maybe for events where humans have no control on the result, such as the next solar eclipse, we can use "will", but I can't see harm to suggest we be a bit more careful for other cases. Masem (t) 22:04, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
The point is that I was echoing your statement, This type of stuff is what is outside the bounds of what WP:NOT#CRYSTAL has. The choice of verbs is something to be covered by the writing style guidelines (and personally, I think consideration of individual circumstances is sufficiently important that a blanket statement wouldn't be too helpful). isaacl (talk) 22:33, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
I would say reflecting the inherent uncertainty of future events is generally good practice (e.g., "scheduled to take place" rather than "will take place"). If the wording would be clunky, there can be some flexibility. And we should take care not to be too cautious about expected events; I find it confusing how infoboxes for a TV season will say it consists of three episodes (based on the number aired) when we have sources confirming eight have been made.--Trystan (talk) 15:06, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Infoboxes are inherently backwards looking. The number of episodes in a season should not be filled in until the season has ended. Similarly, the field for the beginning of an officeholder's term should not be filled in until it has actually occurred. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:29, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Can we hide sensitive graphic photos?
Can we hide sensitive graphic photos? I recently came across an article with a photo of a deceased man smiling right at the top—it was deeply disturbing, traumatizing, triggering, shocking, and sickening! This kind of content discourages many people who might otherwise want to read the article and could even provoke serious medical reactions, such as seizures. Imagine if that man's family came across the article and saw him like that, right in their face! Nobody seems to favor this policy, so why do we insist on keeping it? Arabic Misplaced Pages uses a collapsible template that lets readers choose whether to view such photos, without censoring informative media. Shouldn't we adopt a similar approach? ☆SuperNinja2☆TALK!21:41, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
The issue is that an image one editor might find “disturbing, traumatizing, triggering and shocking” is an image another editor will find informative and helpful. We have no way to know how others will react. It would indeed be censorship to hide such images. Blueboar (talk) 21:50, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
shouldn't we choose the option that minimize the harm to readers? That's what most companies/organization (idk what is the right term, sorry) do. ☆SuperNinja2☆TALK!21:54, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
We already have. The "harm" to a person seeing such useful images in an encyclopedia is insignificant. The true harm is hiding information from those looking for it.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 21:19, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Image censoring is a perennial proposal and really won't go anywhere. And given the topic of that page, I see no real option, since any other image will also be as disturbing. We do ask editors to use the principle of least astonishment, so that same image as the lede on corpse for example would be inappropriate, but not much can be done on that page. Masem (t) 21:51, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
That type of suggestion is part of the perennial proposal on how to deal with such images. There's nothing that can be done to properly hide it. Masem (t) 22:05, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
We already use collapsible templates for "long" lists, such as for BRICS members.While long lists are far less harmful, the goal was to avoid annoying readers and make them comfortable, encouraging them to read. This is also why we have templates like Template:Split—to make articles easier to navigate. Similarly, graphic images make readers extremely uncomfortable, not only discouraging them from reading a single article but sometimes deterring them from using Misplaced Pages altogether, which goes against the ideals of an encyclopedia.
The fact that image censoring is a perennial proposal suggests it’s a problematic topic that many, if not most, editors find uncomfortable. I suspect the primary reason it hasn’t been adopted is the lack of consensus, not because half the community opposes it outright. I propose a solution that could satisfy both groups: a collapsible template. This approach wouldn’t censor anything but would minimize harm.
Let’s focus on images that could provoke serious medical conditions and ignore the sexual and religiously offensive media for the time. Some readers may have heart conditions, PTSD, or other vulnerabilities, and we must also consider the families of deceased individuals whose photos we use. Additionally, while Misplaced Pages isn’t intended for children, they do use it, and we can’t ignore that reality.
In summery, the potential harm caused by showing these images overrides any benefit to the project. And this solution would fix this by making Misplaced Pages a safer and more inclusive without censoring anything, which is the essential goal. ☆SuperNinja2☆TALK!22:28, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
You've yet to show harm beyond you having a personal reaction to a picture that you didn't understand... an informative picture key to the article that I didn't even slightly flinch upon seeing. (If you have any records of Misplaced Pages images having provoked seizures, please put them forward.) Had you hidden it by collapsing, I might have assumed that there was something horrible that I wouldn't want to see and avoid getting that information. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 00:02, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
I know Trypophobia has been the subject of discussion of a good lede that doesn't immediately illicit a problem to readers that have that fear. Masem (t) 00:22, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Had you hidden it by collapsing, I might have assumed that there was something horrible that I wouldn't want to see and avoid getting that information
That would be your choice not to 'get that information.' However, forcing it on people who don't want to 'get it,' and risking a negative reaction as a result, is the real issue we should be concerned about
You've yet to show harm beyond you having a personal reaction to a picture that you didn't understand... an informative picture key to the article that I didn't even slightly flinch upon seeing
That is your personal experience, but we know that at least one person had an anxiety attack from that image. As a community, it is our duty to prioritize the safety of our readers and choose the least risky option. ☆SuperNinja2☆TALK!13:47, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
And you had the choice not to "get that information" that was in the picture.... you chose to go to the Misplaced Pages page about a disease. You claim to have been set off because it was a deceased man smiling... only the man wasn't deceased, he is described in the image's description as a "patient" which is not generally a term for a corpse. So what set you off was a man smiling. If you want us to police pictures based on information that you invent about them, it's hard to see how we don't have to police everything on your behalf. When it comes to safety of our viewers and medical-related images, an image can help them recognize the disease and may serve them well. The "least risky" option is simply not having Misplaced Pages. I hope we don't choose that path. If you think that Misplaced Pages provides as special danger to you, you are free not to use it. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 17:53, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
I don’t understand what you’re defending. You’re just complaining and criticizing my argument without demonstrating why leaving sensitive media as-is is a better option. Your argument essentially boils down to: “I don’t like your proposal,” which isn’t sufficient.
Anyway, regardless of whether that man was dead or not, my point still stands.
The "least risky" option is simply not having Misplaced Pages.
I don’t think that’s the goal of Misplaced Pages—to discourage its readers from using it. If the choice is “either read Misplaced Pages and risk having anxiety attacks or don’t read it at all,” then it’s clear the situation is bad and requires change. ☆SuperNinja2☆TALK!21:08, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
So far, I know of one person claiming to have had a problem, and that's because he saw a picture of a man smiling. Hiding all pictures as not-obviously-problematic as that would basically mean hiding all pictures... and it's not just pictures that upset people, plenty of the text would have to be hidden under the same logic. (People might be freaked out by seeing that a ninja edits Misplaced Pages.) Folks have pointed you to the option that would let you turn off automatic image display for yourself, and if you wanted to make some argument that that should be a standard option, that may well be a supportable argument... but hiding everything that could possibly upset anyone would basically be hiding everything. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 21:30, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Let’s focus on images that could provoke serious medical conditions and ignore the sexual and religiously offensive media for the time. ... And this solution would fix this by making Misplaced Pages a safer and more inclusive without censoring anything, which is the essential goal. I think part of the reason why no consensus was ever reached on this issue is that the editors in favour of image filtering do not acknowledge that it inherently involves an infringement on intellectual freedom, and so don't put forward a framework for how to minimize the infringement. The approach can't be "Let's just create the functionality now and then worry later about what to do when a vocal minority of editors want to be able to hide all depictions of people with disabilities, or of LGBTQ+ people, because they find those images distressing." Those considerations need to be the starting point. I don't support image filtering, but when the discussion was held back in 2011 I did put foward a framework of seven principles for approaching it from this angle.--Trystan (talk) 17:05, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
infringement on intellectual freedom
Why do you guys want to go so technical and get things so complicated when the situation isn't at all complicated? Ppl dislike seeing gore, let them choose not to? Just like that, easy peasy. ☆SuperNinja2☆TALK!21:15, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Who defines what is "gore"? There's probably only a few types of images that we universally can say are problematic to a near majority of the world population (eg when you start to get into child exploitation), but beyond that, there's no way to tell when such an image would be considered bad by a majority of the readership. Masem (t) 21:18, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
@Super ninja2, quite a lot of people agree with you, but a long time ago, this was formally proposed, and The Community™ rejected it. I have a lot of unhappy memories from that discussion, so you should not necessarily consider me to be an unbiased source {{(Redacted).
The proposed approach was that a person should be able to say, in advance, that they personally don't want to see sexual images, disgusting medical images, violent images, or contested religious/cultural images, and have images tagged like that collapsed or screened somehow, with one click to reveal. The responses tended to cluster in two categories:
Individuals should not have the freedom to control what they see, even if they are doing it for neutral reasons, like wanting to conserve bandwidth on a weak internet connection, or for safety reasons, like not wanting to risk an anxiety attack right now or not wanting to worry about the morality police looking over your shoulder at a public internet cafe. The Misplaced Pages editor has the right to put things on your computer screen, and your duty as a reader is to look at whatever disgusting, violent, or inappropriate image they want to shove in your face.
It would be impossible to figure out which (few) images draw complaints. It might be impossible to do this with 100% accuracy, but we all know that the lead image at Smallpox draws complaints even though there's a FAQ at the top of the talk page to explain why it's there, every educated person knows that Depictions of Muhammad are both easily identifiable and considered inappropriate by some religious adherents, and most of us have encountered an animated gif that we'd like to cover up or turn off.
I'm opposed to the first in principle and skeptical of the second. But that's the state of the discussion, and at this point, it will likely continue this way until multiple countries pass laws demanding that we change it. The Community™ has no empathy for people whose living situation is very different from their own. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:10, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
This context might help: Misplaced Pages was basically a spinoff from a now-defunct male-focused porn site. For years, every porn actress who was featured even once as a Playboy Playmate was automatically considered notable. If you infer from that fact something about the attitudes towards controversial content in the early days, I couldn't prove you wrong. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:22, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
There is one technically feasible solution I can come up with, although it may be complicated:
Create a list of types of images that some will find offensive (anatomical parts typically not displayed in public, religiously offensive images, etc). Create a template to mark each type.
Have the software mark these images, when used on other pages, in some way that scripts can use. Write scripts which individual users can self-apply to hide these images. Create a page with instructions for using these scripts, with a disclaimer that 100% results aren't guaranteed.
In some places a woman's hair is not typically displayed in public. Imagine if we had to hide every photo of a woman because her hair was visible, and we marked it with a template warning "Image of woman with visible hair". Valereee (talk) 18:59, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
not wanting to worry about the morality police looking over your shoulder at a public internet cafe.
If you live in Saudi Arabia, Iran, or even less religious countries like Jordan, Morocco, or Egypt, and you were reading an article in a public place when a sexual photo deemed inappropriate popped up on your screen, you could literally be jailed! ☆SuperNinja2☆TALK!13:05, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Those might be valid points if these pictures were just inserted willy-nilly into any old page. But, for example, there is no reason NOT to expect an image of Muhammad on the Muhammad page (at least if you know that the site is not made entirely by Muslims). Articles about something having pictures of that something is not something you should be surprised by. Don't want people seeing what you are looking at? Don't do it in public. This is not hard.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Actually, these pictures (and pictures that haven't been tagged for censoring yet) can be inserted willy-nilly into any old page by vandals. We do try to catch and revert such edits, but there is no guarantee that articles will not contain completely inappropriate images (or text, or ASCII art). If something important like your freedom or livelihood depends on not looking at inappropriate content on Misplaced Pages in public, you should not look at any content on Misplaced Pages in public. —Kusma (talk) 20:18, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
what a terribly sexist and racist comment, full of prejudiced assumptions about who might disagree with you. Fram (talk) 14:19, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Individuals already have control of what they see. They chose to come here. How can anyone seriously expect not to see images of such things in articles about these things? That's simply ridiculous.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 21:24, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
See our Misplaced Pages:Content disclaimer. This isn't likely to be changed because you found an image that you objected too. There are ways for you to implement ways to not see images you don't want too, see WP:NOSEE. Specifically the section about the userscript that blocks all images unless you click to see them. Lee Vilenski13:25, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
no need to change the Content disclaimer because we will still display the offensive images but this time, the reader will choose to view them. ☆SuperNinja2☆TALK!14:04, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
No, I'm not suggesting we change it. I'm suggesting that you read it and realise we aren't going to hide suitable images. Lee Vilenski15:49, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
The good of hiding disturbing or upsetting information, including images (which is real, and appropriate in many contexts) is completely incompatible with the good of presenting information in an educational and encyclopedic context, which is what we are doing on Misplaced Pages. Strongly oppose even a collapsible option or anything like it. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 19:32, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Blurring or collapsing that can be toggled off with a single click does not constitute censorship. Censorship would be only if images were removed or the users were somehow restricted from seeing them, e.g. by first forcing them to disclose their age or location. Giving everyone, including unregistered users, a reasonable default option to avoid inadvertently seeing explicit images is just a convenience feature in the user interface. This just follows from the principle of least astonishment, as most people expect to be warned before seeing sensitive content, and are used to that on other websites.
Making Misplaced Pages more convenient for a large number of users is not equivalent to being forced to adhere to culturally contingent moral prohibitions. There is quite a distance between these two positions. NicolausPrime (talk) 02:38, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
The reasonable default on an encyclopedia is that information is conveyed, not curtained. I’d counter your least astonishment argument with the fact that nobody is used to being warned about sensitive content in an encyclopedia. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 05:42, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Very strong oppose on this one. Putting together a censor board to decide what is, could be, and/or is not offensive to whoever across the globe is a terrible idea, a waste of time, and does not help the site. WP:CENSOR is a crucial ingredient in Misplaced Pages's ability to cover everything under the sun. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:01, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
I recall encountering discussions about three photos on Misplaced Pages: profile photo of the pregnant Lina Medina, napalm girl, and Robert Peary's sunbathing inuit girlfriend Aleqasina. I believe that the napalm girl is the only one currently visible on Misplaced Pages. So WP:NOTCENSORED may be the stated policy, but doesn't sound like we're following it. Fabrickator (talk) 08:43, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
The initial objection to the Aleqasina image was that it was "overtly exploitative pornography". This was objected to as a basis for removing the image. In response, someone removed the image on the basis that it was "a poor quality image compared to the other photos in the article." Fabrickator (talk) 16:40, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Is the photo at Commons, though? If not, it's possible the photo was removed from an article for that reason, but hasn't been put back under NOTCENSORED because it's not in the public domain. All of these photos could be less than 95 years old. Valereee (talk) 16:44, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
FWIW, the photo in question is from 1896. Here is the applicable "fair use" notice:
This media file is in the public domain in the United States. This applies to U.S. works where the copyright has expired, often because its first publication occurred prior to January 1, 1929, and if not then due to lack of notice or renewal.
It's used on ruwiki. The discussion started out as a complaint from inexperienced editors that the photo was offensive, but that doesn't really seem to be what editors there removed it for. They didn't remove it because she's naked. It definitely is a low quality photo, even for the period. It definitely is a fair point that it doesn't add to the reader's understanding of Peary. I'm not sure this is censorship. To me it looks like someone complained it was offensive, other editors said "Why is this image in this article?", and there was discussion of whether removal constituted censorship. I think it could probably be included in Photos by Robert Peary or something. Valereee (talk) 19:09, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
If an image is not of real educational or encyclopedic value, then it being gratuitous pornography is a fine reason to exclude it. That is not censorship. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 19:35, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Apparently hands are okayIs a mere picture of a woman's (you name the body part, someone somewhere finds it offensive) that bad? Valereee (talk) 16:46, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
I would not be opposed to an opt-in only tool or preferences setting or whatever that allows users to avoid seeing certain types of imagery. Would have to be entirely voluntary. I would imagine something that works by looking at an images categories could do it. Just Step Sideways20:44, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
NOSEE, for all its value, requires the user (who may well be just a Misplaced Pages reader, not an editor) to install a script, a process that I suspect seems daunts some of those who are not tech-comfortable, if they even know that system exists. A "require-clicking-to-view-any-image" user option that can be turned on with just a switch would serve not just those who may be concerned about being offended or disturbed by an image, but also those for whom bandwidth may be limited or expensive, and it would be in the place where a user is likely to look for such a control.... but a "don't show offensive images" option would require a huge overhead of effort on the part of the editing base, to mark the existing images, to mark every new image, and to deal with the inevitable disagreements about which images should be marked. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 23:28, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Our license allows anyone to reuse our content and to filter images in any way they like. I expect that if there truly is a need for a Misplaced Pages version with certain censorship applied, someone will write a (possibly AI-powered) tool to deliver it. But I don't see hiding relevant information as something that could ever be part of Misplaced Pages's (or even Wikimedia's) mission. —Kusma (talk) 21:34, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Something like 17 years ago there was a child-friendly clone of WP that I made available on the computers at the elementary school where I worked. I don't know if there is anything like that around now. Donald Albury21:55, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Imagine the process involved in marking content as offensive or falling within certain categories. What is sacrilegious? What is pornographic? What is violent? What is disgusting? And why is it Misplaced Pages’s problem? ꧁Zanahary꧂ 23:00, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
All of this was said more than a decade ago. I see nothing in this discussion that wasn't put forward by the opponents back then, from "NOTCENSORED gives me the right to force you see to see things you'd like to opt out of" to "whatabout this" to "we should prevent people from volunteering to do the necessary work". Apparently we haven't changed a bit. I am not really surprised. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:26, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
"NOTCENSORED gives me the right to force you see to see things you'd like to opt out of" -- I'm sorry, I can't find that quote in this discussion. If someone is actually putting forward that we should force people to look at Misplaced Pages, that's an editor we should be concerned about. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 23:33, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
So over a decade ago, this idea was rejected, and today people still reject it on the same basis. I’m not seeing the problem. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 01:08, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
What is sacrilegious? What is pornographic? What is violent? What is disgusting? Anything that would be considered WP:GRATUITOUS outside of encyclopedic use on Misplaced Pages. As evidenced by that content guideline, Misplaced Pages has been already using a notion of what content may be explicit for over a decade. Misplaced Pages also has been able to use its consensus processes to decide many other contentious and often outright controversial matters, such as WP:NPOV and WP:TITLE.
And why is it Misplaced Pages’s problem? It is Misplaced Pages's problem because a considerable portion of its readers expects this, as evidenced by this matter being discussed perennially. NicolausPrime (talk) 06:52, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Unencyclopedic content shouldn’t be on Misplaced Pages to begin with. Offensive encyclopedic content should. Good luck with identifying the encyclopedic content that will and won’t offend anybody. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 08:48, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
It is Misplaced Pages's problem because a considerable portion of its readers expects this, as evidenced by this matter being discussed perennially. Faced with the perennial problem of some users demanding warning labels on content they view as offensive, the collective response of the library profession over several decades has been to strongly oppose such systems due to the inherent infringement on intellectual freedom. From the American Library Association: Labeling as an attempt to prejudice attitudes is a censor’s tool. There is an inherent non-neutralality in identifying groups of images that users may want to avoid. The image that started this discussion is a good example of that. It was mistakenly thought to be a dead body, but is in fact a person suffering from a disease. Identifying the appropriate categories to be warned against, and which images merit those warnings, is an exercise incompatible with free and open access to information.--Trystan (talk) 15:28, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Sure. But contrast that with library selection policies (hmm, missing article – @The Interior, could I tempt you to write an article?) and collection development work. Libraries oppose putting labels like "this is an immoral book" on collection items. They've got no problem with putting an objective label like "pornography" on a collection item, nor any problem with deciding that they won't stock porn at all. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:14, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
If a "pornography" label is a viewpoint-neutral directional aid intended to help interested users locate the resource, that would be valid. But not if it is intended to warn users away from the content: 7. Is it prejudicial to describe violent and sexual content? For example, would including "contains mild violence" on bibliographic record of a graphic novel violate the Library Bill of Rights? Yes, in any community, there will be a range of attitudes as to what is deemed offensive and contrary to moral values. Potential issues could be sexually explicit content, violence, and/or language. Including notes in the bibliographic record regarding what may be objectionable content assumes all members of the community hold the same values. No one person should take responsibility for judging what is offensive. Such voluntary labeling in bibliographic records and catalogs violates the Library Bill of Rights.--Trystan (talk) 02:04, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
What is sacrilegious? What is pornographic? What is violent? What is disgusting? And why is it Misplaced Pages’s problem?
Just for logistical considerations, how many images are we talking about, and therefore how many consensus discussions, and how often could someone reopen to see if consensus had changed? I feel like there are a huge number of images that might upset someone, but very few that could get consensus for being hidden. Risus sardonicus averages 250+ views a day. The chance that image could ever gain consensus to be hidden is...well, in my mind, unlikely. But if even 1 in 100,000 people are freaked out enough and knowledgeable enough to start a discussion, we could be confirming that once a year via discussion at the talk. Valereee (talk) 13:26, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
I would imagine something that works by looking at an images categories could do it. Subject categories serve a different function than warning labels, and the two functions are not compatible. A subject category about nudity should tag those images where nudity is central to the subject of the image (where it is defining), while a warning label would tag every single image containing any nudity, however trivial. Implementing image filtering that uses subject categories would distort the former into the latter. It would need to be a separate system. I agree with NatGertler above; it would be fine to introduce user-friendly functionality that hides all photos and lets user click to view based on the alt text. But flagging all images that someone, somewhere would object to is not a viable project.--Trystan (talk) 00:33, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
I’m reminded of the deleted Zionist symbol template on Commons, which was slapped all over images of Jewish stars in any context, including a chanukiah and some blue sugar cookies—which, no doubt, would be offensive images to some. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 00:57, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
I recommend you try and imagine a position besides yours that isn’t fallacious or the result of an intellectual failure. Your approach is not a good one from the losing side of a debate. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 05:39, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
I'd be happy to have a default turn on/turn off all images mode in preferences. But anything that requires judgement or consensus for which images or category of images? I'd object. Valereee (talk) 15:36, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
The simple answer: no. Long answer: The addition of a function to turn off images by default is a great idea that’s seemingly never been implemented despite its harmlessness and relative popularity, and is best taken up at some more technical-oriented forum. But we are never hiding/censoring graphic images if they serve a legitimate purpose. True, I don’t support graphic full color images of goatse on the Goatse.cx article per the Misplaced Pages:Principle of least astonishment and Misplaced Pages:GRATUITOUS, but the grey area here is very big and very grey. I’m not talking about the strawman arguments about “what if Dictator McTyrant in Dictatorstan bans pictures of goats” or something; here are some examples of things that could legitimately be considered objectionable to certain persons in a liberal Western society:
Images or voices of deceased indigenous Australians
Spiders
Flashing/strobing lights
Blackface imagery
But are we not allowed to illustrate Indigenous Australians, Spiders, Dennō Senshi Porygon, or Blackface then? Do we need warnings for these things? Do we need warnings for articles that simply discuss distressing content? These are actual, plausible issues people actually have had to address on other, equally serious platforms. But it’s literally impossible to address every conceivable issue, so Misplaced Pages’s longstanding policy is to simply address none of them (besides the bare minimum examples provided above). Dronebogus (talk) 03:52, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
But are we not allowed to illustrate Indigenous Australians, Spiders, Dennō Senshi Porygon, or Blackface then
It’s up to the community to decide, and we’re all here to discuss this. What’s clear, however, is that we need to establish minimum criteria to guide us on what should be collapsed. We must draw a line to distinguish what can and cannot be collapsed.
This isn’t a case where passing the proposal will lead to chaos and censorship, with everyone hiding images indiscriminately. We’ll be here to make the necessary adjustments and ensure it fits the community’s needs. That’s why we are here having this discussion, right? The proposal isn’t a rigid, unchangeable set of rules—it’s flexible and can adapt. Ultimately, consensus will determine what is acceptable enough to remain visible and what warrants collapsing. ☆SuperNinja2☆TALK!04:24, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
You are completely missing my point. My line is not your line. Your line is not anybody else’s line. Your starting example doesn’t even come close to my, or really most people’s, lines. So you’re never going to establish a global minimum criterion here. And we shouldn’t allow people to establish local case-by-case criteria either— not only is that balkanization, it’s not going to get you what you want (medical editors have strong stomachs) Dronebogus (talk) 04:40, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Your starting example doesn’t even come close to my, or really most people’s, lines.What example? I never said that the "example" should be taken as a universal standard for deciding what should be collapsed. You don’t have to agree with me—or anyone else—for the proposal to work. Even if the majority decided that the "example" should not be collapsed, the process would still function. That's why discussions exist: to bring people with differing opinions together, negotiate and compromise, and form a rough consensus by analyzing what most people from both sides agree upon.
In any case, I mentioned that we would discuss what should be collapsed, and doctors and medical editors are welcome to share their perspectives like everyone else. I don’t understand your objection. ☆SuperNinja2☆TALK!07:53, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
All I see here is you getting disturbed by a very particular image, wanting it collapsed, and then slowly backtracking to “well I actually just want this generally”. Basically the answer is still no. Dronebogus (talk) 17:53, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
True, I don’t support graphic full color images of goatse on the Goatse.cx article per the Misplaced Pages:Principle of least astonishment and Misplaced Pages:GRATUITOUS.
Goatse.cx is a good example where Misplaced Pages's policies fall short on this matter. The Goatse shock image is encyclopedically relevant in that article, so WP:GRATUITOUS doesn't apply. WP:ASTONISH also doesn't seem convincing for preventing its inclusion, given that Misplaced Pages does include explicit content like defecation or feces in other appropriate articles, whereas there is also a fair number of users may expect that shock image to be there anyway, so not including it at all may be in fact against WP:ASTONISH.
If you look at the closing rationale for the ultimate deletion of this image, it is stated there that the only accepted reason why it was deleted was because it had unsuitable copyright status. So were the Goatse shock image licensed under a free license, there would be no basis in policy to keep it out of its article's reader sight.
I don’t really get how a picture of a man stretching his anus is really necessary to understand the concept of a shock site depicting a man stretching his anus. I’d say it is gratuitous because it doesn’t improve the viewer’s understanding. A better example I guess would be something like Coprophilia which has no graphic full-color photographs (or even graphically explicit illustrations) of people… engaging in it because it would not improve understanding of the topic and would just disgust 99% of the population. Dronebogus (talk) 04:45, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Seeing what the famous shock image really looked like very much increases the person's understanding of the subject. Words can convey only small parts of audiovisual content. And generally, showing the image in an article about it is helpful for people who may recognize it but not remember its name. For example, in the Lenna article I wouldn't have realized that I know this image if it wasn't shown there. NicolausPrime (talk) 05:03, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Another example: Nudity has relatively few explicit images despite the subject (most of them would be considered PG-13 by American standards) because it’s mostly discussing the societal context of nudity. There are more explicit anatomical photographs on anatomy pages because those discuss biological aspects of humans that cannot be illustrated without showing the entire unclothed body. Dronebogus (talk) 04:51, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Hi there, I've been adding some original, subtitled Latin content to some pages, from a series of readings which are available as CC-By content now at here, here and here. The content is verifiable and properly sourced. Where the readings are sufficiently significant to the topic, this seems a reasonable thing to do, eg at Martin Luther. It is also more in line with MOS:FOREIGNQUOTE to subtitle the original than to read from a translation. If an editor feels the content is not sufficiently relevant, that is fair enough of course.
I think the wording of WP:RSPYT is poor - YouTube is a publisher, not a source, and so is neither reliable nor unreliable. While most videos hosted on it are unreliable and/or copyright violations (for various reasons), there are exceptions and there should not be any prohibition on citing those exceptions. The onus is on the person wanting to cite them to show they are reliable and not copyright violations, as well as the usual DUE, etc. but once shown to be acceptable and relevant there is no reason not to cite such videos imo (unless of course there are better sources of course). Thryduulf (talk) 19:13, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
With YouTube videos, even those released by a free license, we want to make sure of a few things. First, that the account that posted the material themselves are a reliable source. To take the first image in the first link provided, File:Dr. Samuel Johnson- Letter of Thanks for His Oxford Degree.webm, the YouTube it was pulled from appears to be no-name with zero evidence of any reliability on their own (they claim to be an independent student of Latin and Greek). While the content may be accurate, we shouldn't be using that questionable reliability for such sources. Another problem, but which is not the case here, is that there are people that create CC-BY videos on YouTube that include considerable amount of copyrighted material (that is not in there control), beyond what fair use would allow, and thus belie the CC-BY allowance. YouTube itself doesn't check this, so we have to aware of such problems. Masem (t) 21:29, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
That all makes sense. But I would assume that it is OK so long as the checks can be made? The author of these videos is pseudonymous but give sources. In the case you mention, he cites the public domain Life of Johnson by James Boswell for the text; a search for "ingratus plane et mihi videar" turns up page 75 of this edition, in Latin and English, so the content is easy enough to check.
I have sufficient Latin to know that his pronunciation and diction is decent, and to check the sources linked to match up with what is said. I'm also able to translate most of the simpler texts from Latin to English where needed. Jim Killock(talk)00:07, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
It doesn't matter if the YouTube source is accurate or that it cites other sources; if it is not from an established RS outlet it is no more reliable than a forums post. JoelleJay (talk) 03:02, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Unless it clearly cites its sources, is published by an established expert in the field, or a few other scenarios - i.e. exactly the same as a text source. Thryduulf (talk) 03:05, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Either a source is the account of an official outlet with a formal editorial policy that establishes it as RS, or it's an SPS from an established expert. If you need to replace "outlet" with "verified official account of an established expert" you can do that. JoelleJay (talk) 03:23, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
To be clear I am asking about a very simple scenario here. The Johnson video foe example follows this script:
'INGRATUS planè et tibi et mihi videar, nisi quanto me gaudio affecerint quos nuper mihi honores (te credo auctore) decrevit Senatus Academicus, Iiterarum, quo lamen nihil levius, officio, significem: ingratus etiam, nisi comitatem, quá vir eximius mihi vestri testimonium amoris in manus tradidit, agnoscam et laudem. Si quid est undè rei lam gratæ accedat gratia, hoc ipso magis mihi placet, quod eo tempore in ordines Academicos denuo cooptatus sim, quo tuam imminuere auctoritatem, famamque Oxonii Iædere, omnibus modis conantur homines vafri, nec tamen aculi: quibus ego, prout viro umbratico licuit, semper restiti, semper restiturus. Qui enim, inter has rerum procellas, vel Tibi vel Academiæ defuerit, illum virtuti et literis, sibique et posteris, defuturum existimo.
There might be a question about the translation of the English subtitles, if the text is more complicated. In these, the author has generally gone with a public domain translation, which is also easily verified. Occassionally they are his own work, which obviously does need checking according to context and complexity.
Assuming the subs and original source are public domain; and the relevance of the original source can be established from secondary sources, then I'm struggling to see why there would be a problem using this content. Jim Killock(talk)08:46, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Because (in general) the only thing a video of a reading adds over the script is aural. And given Latin is a dead language I would want to see someone who has qualifications in the area reading it (I would at minimum accept a catholic priest here FYI). Because YT is self-published I have no idea if the person reading it is competent. I cant even verify from the audio if it matches the script because I dont speak latin to start with. It absolutely would be suitable for an External Link, but there's nothing you can source content from it. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:31, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
There are plenty of competent Latinists, judged competent by trained Latinists. WP has plenty of trained Latinists. Not everyone can judge everything against sources; not all of us can access all sources or other people's abilities to recite another language; the same would apply to Welsh or Gaelic for example, in that I personally cannot evaluate a spoken Gaelic source or translation. Misplaced Pages depends on a network of people evaluating sources; that is inherent in WP's work AIUI. Jim Killock(talk)13:09, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
YouTube videos are self-published, YouTube myself just acts as a way to publish those videos. So they can be reliable is they from an otherwise reliable source, so if the Associated Press upload a video of their news coverage it would be as reliable as any other work by the Associated Press. For individuals they need to be subject matter experts who have been previous published by independent reliable sources (WP:SPS) or show they have been used as a citation by other independent reliable sources (WP:USEBYOTHERS). -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t°19:51, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Right, but my use case falls outside of this scenario. Say someone sings "Jack and Jill went up the Hill" and releases it under CC-By. They cite and link a public domain music sheet. They use an anonymous name and they are not a known subject expert. According to the criteria set out above, the video is an unreliable source, as it is not published by a subject matter expert, nor used as a citation by an independent reliable source, so must be disallowed (not republished) on Misplaced Pages.
These videos are performances (recitals) not cited sources.
If it's being used for the purposes of verification then it's a reference, and must be from a reliable source. If it's only being used as an external link, rather than for verification, then it comes under WP:External links. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t°21:19, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
The intention is not that they are used for verification; they are performances for "illustrative purposes", rather like images on the page. See for example: this Martin Luther reading. The idea is that the reader can get an idea of the original source material. The performances may be verified; but the performances are not sources, they are derivative works. Jim Killock(talk)22:32, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
RSPYT only applies to verification, and this appears to be a matter of inclusion not verification. Whether a video made by an anonymous performer should be included or not is the same as if a particular image should be used. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t°22:49, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Answering my own question: MOS:IMAGES. I think there is a bit of lacuna in guidance here, as illsutative videos of performances or recordings etc don't seem to be covered in MOS, or if they are, I haven't found it. Jim Killock(talk)22:58, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Thanks. None of this content was wrapped up in ref tags. Confusion may have arise because the challenge was made over the "verifiability" of the content; as the videos are derivative works of public domain sources, eg Luther's pamphlet, it's important that the video's sources are clear and checked, even though the video is not being used as a citation. Jim Killock(talk)07:30, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.
Should admins or other users evaluating consensus in a discussion discount, ignore, or strike through or collapse comments found to have been generated by AI/LLM/Chatbots? 00:12, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
I've recently come across several users in AFD discussions that are using LLMs to generate their remarks there. As many of you are aware, gptzero and other such tools are very good at detecting this.
I don't feel like any of us signed up for participating in discussions where some of the users are not using their own words but rather letting technology do it for them. Discussions are supposed to be between human editors. If you can't make a coherent argument on your own, you are not competent to be participating in the discussion. I would therefore propose that LLM-generated remarks in discussions should be discounted or ignored, and possibly removed in some manner. Just Step Sideways00:12, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Seems reasonable, as long as the GPTZero (or any tool) score is taken with a grain of salt. GPTZero can be as wrong as AI can be. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 00:32, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Only if the false positive and false negative rate of the tool you are using to detect LLM content is very close to zero. LLM detectors tend to be very unreliable on, among other things, text written by non-native speakers. Unless the tool is near perfect then it's just dismissing arguments based on who wrote them rather than their content, which is not what we do or should be doing around here. Thryduulf (talk) 00:55, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
The more I read the comments from other editors on this, the more I'm a convinced that implementing either this policy or something like it will bring very significant downsides on multiple fronts that significantly outweigh the small benefits this would (unreliably) bring, benefits that would be achieved by simply reminding closers to disregard comments that are unintelligible, meaningless and/or irrelevant regardless of whether they are LLM-generated or not. For the sake of the project I must withdraw my previous very qualified support and instead very strongly oppose. Thryduulf (talk) 02:45, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
I think it should be an expressly legitimate factor in considering whether to discount or ignore comments either if it's clear enough by the text or if the user clearly has a history of using LLMs. We wouldn't treat a comment an editor didn't actually write as an honest articulation of their views in lieu of site policy in any other situation. Remsense ‥ 论00:59, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
I would have already expected admins to exercise discretion in this regard, as text written by an LLM is not text written by a person. We cannot guarantee it is what the person actually means, especially as it is a tool often used by those with less English proficiency, which means perhaps they cannot evaluate the text themselves. However, I do not think we can make policy about a specific LLM or tool. The LLM space is moving fast, en.wiki policies do not. Removal seems tricky, I would prefer admins exercise discretion instead, as they do with potentially canvassed or socked !votes. CMD (talk) 01:06, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Support discounting or collapsing AI-generated comments, under slightly looser conditions than those for human comments. Not every apparently-AI-generated comment is useless hallucinated nonsense – beyond false positives, it's also possible for someone to use an AI to help them word a constructive comment, and make sure that it matches their intentions before they publish it. But in my experience, the majority of AI-generated comments are somewhere between "pointless" and "disruptive". Admins should already discount clearly insubstantial !votes, and collapse clearly unconstructive lengthy comments; I think we should recognize that blatant chatbot responses are more likely to fall into those categories. jlwoodwa (talk) 02:11, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Strongly Support - I think some level of human judgement on the merits of the argument are necessary, especially as GPTZero may still have a high FPR. Still, if the discussion is BLUDGEONy, or if it quacks like an AI-duck, looks like an AI-duck, etc, we should consider striking out such content.- sidenote, I'd also be in favor of sanctions against users who overuse AI to write out their arguments/articles/etc. and waste folks time on here.. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 02:20, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
On a wording note, I think any guidance should avoid referring to any specific technology. I suggest saying "... to have been generated by a program". isaacl (talk) 02:54, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
A translation program, whether it is between languages or from speech, is not generating a comment, but converting it from one format to another. A full policy statement can be more explicit in defining "generation". The point is that the underlying tech doesn't matter; it's that the comment didn't feature original thought from a human. isaacl (talk) 03:57, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Support. We already use discretion in collapsing etc. comments by SPAs and suspected socks, it makes sense to use the same discretion for comments suspected of being generated by a non-human. JoelleJay (talk) 03:07, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Support - Someone posting "here's what ChatGPT has to say on the subject" can waste a lot of other editors' time if they feel obligated to explain why ChatGPT is wrong again. I'm not sure how to detect AI-written text but we should take a stance that it isn't sanctioned. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 04:37, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Strong Support - I've never supported using generative AI in civil discourse. Using AI to participate in these discussions is pure laziness, as it is substituting genuine engagement and critical thought with a robot prone to outputting complete garbage. In my opinion, if you are too lazy to engage in the discussion yourself, why should we engage with you? Lazman321 (talk) 05:26, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Because it's based on a potentially false premise that it will be possible to reliably distinguish between text generated by human biological neural networks and text generated by non-biological neural networks by observing the text. It is already quite difficult in many cases, and the difficulty is increasing very rapidly. I have your basic primate brain. The AI companies building foundation models have billions of dollars, tens of thousands, soon to be hundreds of thousands of GPUs, a financial incentive to crack this problem and scaling laws on their side. So, I have very low credence in the notion that I will be able to tell whether content is generated by a person or a person+LLM or an AI agent very soon. On the plus side, it will probably still be easy to spot people making non-policy based arguments regardless of how they do it. Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:52, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
...and now that the systems are autonomously injecting their output back into model via chain-of-thought prompting, or a kind of inner monologue if you like, to respond to questions, they are becoming a little bit more like us. Sean.hoyland (talk) 14:14, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
A transformer (deep learning architecture) is intrinsically nothing like a human. It's a bunch of algebra that can compute what a decently sensible person could write in a given situation based on its training data, but it is utterly incapable of anything that could be considered thought or reasoning. This is why LLMs tend to fail spectacularly when asked to do math or write non-trivial code. Flounder fillet (talk) 17:20, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
We shall see. You might want to update yourself on their ability to do math and write non-trivial code. Things are changing very quickly. Either way, it is not currently possible to say much about what LLMs are actually doing because mechanistic interpretability is in its infancy. Sean.hoyland (talk) 03:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Support and I would add "or similar technologies" to "AI/LLM/Chatbots". As for Sean.hoyland's comment, we will cross that bridge when we get to it. Cullen328 (talk) 05:51, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Support - All editors should convey their thoughts in their own words. AI generated responses and comments are disruptive because they are pointless and not meaningful. - Ratnahastin (talk) 06:04, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Support, I already more or less do this. An LLM generated comment may or may not actually reflect the actual thoughts of the editor who posted it, so it's essentially worthless toward a determination of consensus. Since I wrote this comment myself, you know that it reflects my thoughts, not those of a bot that I may or may not have reviewed prior to copying and pasting. Seraphimblade06:59, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Strong oppose. Let me say first that I do not like ChatGPT. I think it has been a net negative for the world, and it is by nature a net negative for the physical environment. It is absolutely a net negative for the encyclopedia if LLM-generated text is used in articles in any capacity. However, hallucinations are less of an issue on talk pages because they're discussions. If ChatGPT spits out a citation of a false policy, then obviously that comment is useless. If ChatGPT spits out some boilerplate "Thanks for reviewing the article, I will review your suggestions and take them into account" talk page reply, who gives a fuck where it came from? (besides the guys in Texas getting their eardrums blown out because they live by the data center)The main reason I oppose, though, is because banning LLM-generated comments is difficult to enforce bordering on unenforceable. Most studies show that humans are bad at distinguishing AI-generated text from text generated without AI. Tools like GPTZero claims a 99% accuracy rate, but that seems dubious based on reporting on the matter. The news outlet Futurism (which generally has an anti-AI slant) has failed many times to replicate that statistic, and anecdotal accounts by teachers, etc. are rampant. So we can assume that we don't know how capable AI detectors are, that there will be some false positives, and that striking those false positives will result in WP:BITING people, probably newbies, younger people more accustomed to LLMs, and non-Western speakers of English (see below).There are also technological issues as play. It'd be easy if there was a clean line between "totally AI-generated text" and "totally human-generated text," but that line is smudged and well on its way to erased. Every tech company is shoving AI text wrangling into their products. This includes autocomplete, translation, editing apps, etc. Should we strike any comment a person used Grammarly or Google Translate for? Because those absolutely use AI now.And there are also, as mentioned above, cultural issues. The people using Grammarly, machine translation, or other such services are likely to not have English as their first language. And a lot of the supposed "tells" of AI-generated content originate in the formal English of other countries -- for instance, the whole thing where "delve" was supposedly a tell for AI-written content until people pointed out the fact that lots of Nigerian workers trained the LLM and "delve" is common Nigerian formal English.I didn't use ChatGPT to generate any of this comment. But I am also pretty confident that if I did, I could have slipped it in and nobody would have noticed until this sentence. Gnomingstuff (talk) 08:31, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Just for grins, I ran your comment through GPTzero, and it comes up with a 99% probability that it was human-written (and it never struck me as looking like AI either, and I can often tell.) So, maybe it's more possible to distinguish than you think? Seraphimblade20:11, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Support - Ai-generated comments are WP:DISRUPTIVE - An editor who has an argument should not use ChatGPT to present it in an unnecessarily verbose manner, and an editor who doesn't have one should not participate in discussion. Flounder fillet (talk) 13:14, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
They exist, and I found myself collapsing some long, obviously chatbot-generated posts in an AFD, and after I did so wondering if policy actually supported doing that. I couldn't find anything so here we are. Just Step Sideways20:04, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Yes, of course, and I know that's the right answer because ChatGPT agrees with me.
What ChatGPT thinks
I started by asking:
Currently at the English Misplaced Pages, there's a discussion of the following proposal: "Should or other users evaluating consensus in a discussion discount, ignore, or strike through or collapse comments found to have been generated by AI/LLM/Chatbots?" I wonder if you have an opinion on that question.
My friend the bot initially proposed a requirement that any AI-generated content be labeled as such by the person posting it. After some further discussion between us, I finally said:
You say that labeling AI-generated content, instead of outright discounting it, might be an appropriate middle ground. But if someone is unable to formulate their own thoughts and put them in writing, of what use is it to the discussion for this person to simply ask you to make something up, and then post your output to the Misplaced Pages discussion with the proviso that "ChatGPT, who/which doesn't actually know anything about anything, said this ..."? How is it different from saying, "My grandmother, who knows nothing about what we're talking about, said ..."?
And it said:
That’s an incisive question, and it highlights the crux of the issue: the value of contributions to a discussion. Here’s why AI-generated comments might still differ (slightly) from your hypothetical grandmother’s input, but why their usefulness is often limited:
Synthesis vs. Subject Expertise: While I (or any AI) lack personal understanding or expertise, I can aggregate and articulate relevant ideas from a vast dataset. This means I can sometimes present arguments, summarize perspectives, or surface considerations that a non-expert human might overlook. Your grandmother, unless she's an AI-trained polymath, wouldn’t be able to provide this breadth. However, this advantage evaporates if participants lack the ability to evaluate and critically engage with my output.
The Problem of Proxy Voices: The act of outsourcing one’s contribution to AI undermines the deliberative process central to Misplaced Pages’s discussions. Participants are expected to bring their own informed perspectives, shaped by personal understanding of Misplaced Pages’s policies and content. A disclaimer like “ChatGPT said this” doesn’t change the fact that the human posting it has abdicated their role in the discussion.
Accountability and Intent: In a collaborative setting like Misplaced Pages, contributions are ideally linked to a person who can clarify their intent, respond to questions, and engage dynamically. An AI cannot do this. Saying "ChatGPT said this" distances the poster from the content, making it unclear whether they endorse or even understand the comment.
Potential for Misdirection: Allowing AI-generated contributions risks introducing noise into the discussion. AI can produce plausible-sounding arguments that may be tangential, misaligned, or even factually incorrect. Without the judgment of a well-informed poster, such contributions can derail or dilute meaningful discourse.
Conclusion: If someone cannot formulate their own argument or understanding, then their reliance on an AI—or anyone else—to contribute doesn’t meaningfully advance the discussion. Labeling AI-generated content is better than passing it off as human, but the real issue lies in whether such contributions enrich or degrade the collaborative process. In most cases, they would seem to belong more to the realm of rhetorical curiosities than substantive engagement.
In keeping with the proposed guideline, I have of course collapsed the above AI-generated content. But I must confess it's a pretty good analysis, and worth reading. EEng07:47, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
That's because, just by interacting with me, ChatGPT got smarter. Seriously ... you want it to say 99% every time? (And for the record, the idea of determining the "chance" that something is AI-generated is statistical nonsense.) EEng03:07, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
What I really want is a 100% chance that it won't decide that what I've written is AI-generated. Past testing has demonstrated that at least some of the detectors are unreliable on this point. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:28, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Strong Oppose I support the concept of removal of AI-generated content in theory. However, we do not have the means to detect such AI-generated content. The proposed platform that we may use (GPTZero) is not reliable for this purpose. In fact, our own page on GPTZero has a section citing several sources stating the problem with this platform's accuracy. It is not helpful to have a policy that is impossible to enforce. ThatIPEditor08:46, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Strong Support To be honest, I am surprised that this isn't covered by an existing policy. I oppose the use of platforms like GPTZero, due to it's unreliability, but if it is obviously an ai-powered-duck (Like if it is saying shit like "as an AI language model...", take it down and sanction the editor who put it up there. ThatIPEditor08:54, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Support at least for WP:DUCK-level AI-generated comments. If someone uses a LLM to translate or improve their own writing, there should be more leeway, but something that is clearly a pure ChatGPT output should be discounted. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 09:17, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
I agree for cases in which it is uncontroversial that a comment is purely AI-generated. However, I don't think there are many cases where this is obvious. The claim that gptzero and other such tools are very good at detecting this is false. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:43, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Moral support; neutral as written. Chatbot participation in consensus discussions is such an utterly pointless and disdainful abuse of process and community eyeballs that I don't feel like the verbiage presented goes far enough. Any editor may hat LLM-generated comments in consensus discussions is nearer my position. No waiting for the closer, no mere discounting, no reliance on the closer's personal skill at recognising LLM output, immediate feedback to the editor copypasting chatbot output that their behaviour is unwelcome and unacceptable. Some observations:I've seen editors accused of using LLMs to generate their comments probably about a dozen times, and in all but two cases – both at dramaboards – the chatbot prose was unmistakably, blindingly obvious. Editors already treat non-obvious cases as if written by a human, in alignment with the raft of only if we're sure caveats in every discussion about LLM use on the project.If people are using LLMs to punch up prose, correct grammar and spelling, or other superficial tasks, this is generally undetectable, unproblematic, and not the point here.Humans are superior to external services at detecting LLM output, and no evidence from those services should be required for anything.As a disclosure, evidence mounts that LLM usage in discussions elicits maximally unkind responses from me. It just feels so contemptuous, to assume that any of us care what a chatbot has to say about anything we're discussing, and that we're all too stupid to see through the misattribution because someone tacked on a sig and sometimes an introductory paragraph. And I say this as a stupid person. Folly Mox (talk) 11:20, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
I would be careful here, as there are tools that rely on LLM AI that help to improve the clarity of one's writing, and editors may opt to use those to parse their poor writing (perhaps due to ESL aspects) to something clear. I would agree content 100% generated by AI probably should be discounted particularly if from an IP or new editors (hints if socking or meat puppetry) but not all cases where AI has come into play should be discounted — Masem (t) 14:19, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Support, cheating should have no place or take its place in writing coherent comments on Misplaced Pages. Editors who opt to use it should practice writing until they rival Shakespeare, or at least his cousin Ned from across the river, and then come back to edit. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:29, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Support atleast for comments that are copied straight from the LLM . However, we should be more lenient if the content is rephrased by non-native English speakers due to grammar issues The AP (talk) 15:10, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Support for LLM-generated content (until AI is actually intelligent enough to create an account and contribute on a human level, which may eventually happen). However, beware of the fact that some LLM-assisted content should probably be allowed. An extreme example of this: if a non-native English speaker were to write a perfectly coherent reason in a foreign language, and have an LLM translate it to English, it should be perfectly acceptable. Animal lover|666|16:47, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Oppose - I think the supporters must have a specific type of AI-generated content in mind, but this isn't a prohibition on one type; it's a prohibition on the use of generative AI in discussions (or rather, ensuring that anyone who relies on such a tool will have their opinion discounted). We allow people who aren't native English speakers to contribute here. We also allow people who are native English speakers but have difficulty with language (but not with thinking). LLMs are good at assisting both of these groups of people. Furthermore, as others pointed out, detection is not foolproof and will only get worse as time goes on, models proliferate, models adapt, and users of the tools adapt. This proposal is a blunt instrument. If someone is filling discussions with pointless chatbot fluff, or we get a brand new user who's clearly using a chatbot to feign understanding of wikipolicy, of course that's not ok. But that is a case by case behavioral issue. I think the better move would be to clarify that "some forms of LLM use can be considered disruptive and may be met with restrictions or blocks" without making it a black-and-white issue. — Rhododendrites \\ 17:32, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
I agree the focus should not be on whether or not a particular kind of tech was used by an editor, but whether or not the comment was generated in a way (whether it's using a program or ghost writer) such that it fails to express actual thoughts by the editor. (Output from a speech-to-text program using an underlying large language model, for instance, isn't a problem.) Given that this is often hard to determine from a single comment (everyone is prone to post an occasional comment that others will consider to be off-topic and irrelevant), I think that patterns of behaviour should be examined. isaacl (talk) 18:07, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Here's what I see as two sides of a line. The first is, I think, something we can agree would be inappropriate. The second, to me at least, pushes up against the line but is not ultimately inappropriate. But they would both be prohibited if this passes. (a) "I don't want an article on X to be deleted on Misplaced Pages. Tell me what to say that will convince people not to delete it"; (b) "I know Misplaced Pages deletes articles based on how much coverage they've received in newspapers, magazines, etc. and I see several such articles, but I don't know how to articulate this using wikipedia jargon. Give me an argument based on links to wikipedia policy that use the following sources as proof ". Further into the "acceptable" range would be things like translations, grammar checks, writing a paragraph and having an LLM improve the writing without changing the ideas, using an LLM to organize ideas, etc. I think what we want to avoid are situations where the arguments and ideas themselves are produced by AI, but I don't see such a line drawn here and I don't think we could draw a line without more flexible language. — Rhododendrites \\ 18:47, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Here we return to my distinction between AI-generated and AI-assisted. A decent speech-to-text program doesn't actually generate content. Animal lover|666|18:47, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Yes, as I posted earlier, the underlying tech isn't important (and will change). Comments should reflect what the author is thinking. Tools (or people providing advice) that help authors express their personal thoughts have been in use for a long time. isaacl (talk) 19:08, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Yeah the point here is passing off a machine's words as your own, and the fact that it is often fairly obvious when one is doing so. If a person is not competent to express their own thoughts in plain English, they shouldn't be in the discussion. This certainly is not aimed at assistive technology for those who actually need it but rather at persons who are simply letting Chatbots speak for them. Just Step Sideways20:10, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
This doesn't address what I wrote (though maybe it's not meant to). If a person is not competent to express their own thoughts in plain English, they shouldn't be in the discussion. This certainly is not aimed at assistive technology for those who actually need it but rather at persons who are simply letting Chatbots speak for them is just contradictory. Assistive technologies are those that can help people who aren't "competent" to express themselves to your satisfaction in plain English, sometimes helping with the formulation of a sentence based on the person's own ideas. There's a difference between having a tool that helps me to articulate ideas that are my own and a tool that comes up with the ideas. That's the distinction we should be making. — Rhododendrites \\ 21:23, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
I agree with Rhododendrites that we shouldn't be forbidding users from seeking help to express their own thoughts. Getting help from someone more fluent in English, for example, is a good practice. Nowadays, some people use generative technology to help them prepare an outline of their thoughts, so they can use it as a starting point. I think the community should be accepting of those who are finding ways to write their own viewpoints more effectively and concisely, even if that means getting help from someone or a program. I agree that using generative technology to come up with the viewpoints isn't beneficial for discussion. isaacl (talk) 22:58, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Non-native English speakers and non-speakers to whom a discussion is important enough can already use machine translation from their original language and usually say something like "Sorry, I'm using machine translation". Skullers (talk) 08:34, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Oppose Contributions to discussions are supposed to be evaluated on their merits per WP:NOTAVOTE. If an AI-assisted contribution makes sense then it should be accepted as helpful. And the technical spectrum of assistance seems large and growing. For example, as I type this into the edit window, some part of the interface is spell-checking and highlighting words that it doesn't recognise. I'm not sure if that's coming from the browser or the edit software or what but it's quite helpful and I'm not sure how to turn it off. Andrew🐉(talk) 18:17, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
But we're not talking about spell-checking. We're talking about comments clearly generated by LLMs, which are inherently unhelpful. Lazman321 (talk) 18:29, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, spellchecking is not the issue here. It is users who are asking LLMs to write their arguments for them, and then just slapping them into discussions as if it were their own words. Just Step Sideways20:12, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Andrew's first two sentences also seem to imply that he views AI-generated arguments that makes sense as valid, and that we should consider what AI thinks about a topic. I'm not sure what to think about this, especially since AI can miss out on a lot of the context. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:04, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Written arguments are supposed to be considered on their merits as objects in their own right. Denigrating an argument by reference to its author is ad hominem and that ranks low in the hierarchy – "attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the substance of the argument". Andrew🐉(talk) 23:36, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
On the other hand, "exhausting the community's patience"/CompetenceIsRequired is a very valid rationale from stopping someone from partricipating. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:50, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
The spell-checking was an immediate example but there's a spectrum of AI tools and assistance. The proposed plan is to use an AI tool to detect and ban AI contributions. That's ludicrous hypocrisy but suggests an even better idea – that we use AIs to close discussions so that we don't get the bias and super-voting. I see this on Amazon regularly now as it uses an AI to summarise the consensus of product reviews. For example,
Customers say Customers appreciate the gloves for their value, ease of use, and gardening purposes. They find the gloves comfortable and suitable for tasks like pruning or mowing. However, opinions differ on how well they fit. AI-generated from the text of customer reviews
I asked Google's Gemini to "summarise the consensus of the following RFC discussion", giving it the 87 comments to date.
AI summary of the RfC to date
This Misplaced Pages Request for Comment (RfC) debates whether comments in discussions that are found to be generated by AI/LLM/Chatbots should be discounted, ignored, or removed.
Arguments for discounting/removing AI-generated comments:
AI comments don't represent genuine human engagement or thought. They can be disruptive, waste time, and even fabricate information.
AI can be used to manipulate discussions. Editors might use AI to generate arguments they don't actually believe in, or to flood discussions with low-quality comments.
Relying on AI undermines the integrity of Misplaced Pages's consensus-based process. Discussions should be based on the genuine opinions of human editors.
Arguments against discounting/removing AI-generated comments:
Difficulty of detection. AI detection tools are not always reliable, and it can be hard to distinguish between AI-generated text and human-written text, especially as AI technology improves.
Potential for misuse. False positives could lead to legitimate comments being dismissed, potentially silencing non-native English speakers or those who use AI for legitimate assistive purposes (e.g., translation, grammar checks).
Focus on content, not origin. Comments should be evaluated based on their merits, not on how they were generated. If an AI-generated comment is relevant and well-reasoned, it shouldn't be dismissed simply because of its origin.
LLMs can be helpful tools. LLMs can help editors express their thoughts more clearly, especially for non-native speakers or those with language difficulties.
Current Status (as of Dec 3rd, 2024):
No clear consensus has emerged. There is significant support for discounting or removing AI-generated comments, but also strong opposition.
Concerns about enforceability and potential harm. Many editors are worried about the practical challenges of implementing and enforcing such a rule, as well as the potential for it to be used unfairly against certain editors.
Ongoing discussion. The discussion is still active, and it remains to be seen whether a consensus will form.
It's important to note that this is an evolving situation, and the outcome of the RfC could have significant implications for how Misplaced Pages handles AI-generated content in the future.
That seems quite a fair and good summary of what's been said so far. I'm impressed and so my !vote stands.
Support Just the other day, I spent ~2 hours checking for the context of several quotes used in an RFC, only to find that they were fake. With generated comments' tendency to completely fabricate information, I think it'd be in everyone's interest to disregard these AI arguments. Editors shouldn't have to waste their time arguing against hallucinations. (My statement does not concern speech-to-text, spell-checking, or other such programs, only those generated whole-cloth) - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 19:39, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Oppose Without repeating the arguments against this presented by other opposers above, I will just add that we should be paying attention to the contents of comments without getting hung up on the difficult question of whether the comment includes any LLM-created elements. - Donald Albury19:45, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Strong support If others editors are not going to put in the effort of writing comments why should anyone put in the effort of replying. Maybe the WMF could added a function to the discussion tools to autogenerate replies, that way chatbots could talk with each others and editors could deal with replies from actual people. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t°19:57, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Strong oppose. Comments that are bullshit will get discounted anyways. Valuable comments should be counted. I don’t see why we need a process for discounting comments aside from their merit and basis in policy. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 23:04, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Oppose - as Rhododendrites and others have said, a blanket ban on even only DUCK LLM comments would be detrimental to some aspects of editors. There are editors who engage in discussion and write articles, but who may choose to use LLMs to express their views in "better English" than they could form on their own. Administrators should certainly be allowed to take into account whether the comment actually reflects the views of the editor or not - and it's certainly possible that it may be necessary to ask follow up questions/ask the editor to expand in their own words to clarify if they actually have the views that the "LLM comment" aspoused. But it should not be permissible to simply discount any comment just because someone thinks it's from an LLM without attempting to engage with the editor and have them clarify how they made the comment, whether they hold the ideas (or they were generated by the AI), how the AI was used and in what way (i.e. just for grammar correction, etc). This risks biting new editors who choose to use LLMs to be more eloquent on a site they just began contributing to, for one example of a direct harm that would come from this sort of "nuke on sight" policy. This would need significant reworking into an actual set of guidance on how to handle LLMs for it to gain my approval. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me!23:19, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Comment: It would appear Jimbo responded indirectly in a interview: as long as there’s a human in the loop, a human supervising, there are really potentially very good use cases. 2601AC47 (talk·contribs·my rights) Isn't a IP anon 12:39, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Very strong support. Enough is enough. If Misplaced Pages is to survive as a project, we need zero tolerance for even the suspicion of AI generation and, with it, zero tolerance for generative AI apologists who would happily open the door to converting the site to yet more AI slop. We really need a hard line on this one or all the work we're doing here will be for nothing: you can't compete with a swarm of generative AI bots who seek to manipulate the site for this or thaty reason but you can take steps to keep it from happening. :bloodofox: (talk) 01:13, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Just for an example of the types of contributions I think would qualify here under DUCK, some of User:Shawn Teller/A134's GARs (and a bunch of AfD !votes that have more classic indications of non-human origin) were flagged as likely LLM-generated troll nonsense:
But thanks to these wonderful images, I now understand that Ontario Highway 11 is a paved road that vehicles use to travel.
This article is extensive in its coverage of such a rich topic as Ontario Highway 11. It addresses the main points of Ontario Highway 11 in a way that isn’t just understandable to a reader, but also relatable.
Neutral point of view without bias is maintained perfectly in this article, despite Ontario Highway 11 being such a contentious and controversial topic.
Yes, this could and should have been reverted much earlier based on being patently superficial and/or trolling, without needing the added issue of appearing LLM-generated. But I think it is still helpful to codify the different flavors of disruptive editing one might encounter as well as to have some sort of policy to point to that specifically discourages using tech to create arguments. As a separate point, LTAs laundering their comments through GPT to obscure their identity is certainly already happening, so making it harder for such comments to "count" in discussions would surely be a net positive. JoelleJay (talk) 01:18, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
For the purposes of this proposal, I don't think we need, or should ever rely solely on, GPTzero in evaluating content for non-human origin. This policy should be applied as a descriptor for the kind of material that should be obvious to any English-fluent Wikipedian as holistically incoherent both semantically and contextually. Yes, pretty much everything that would be covered by the proposal would likely already be discounted by closers, but a) sometimes "looks like AI-generated slop" is the best way for a closer to characterize a contribution; b) currently there is no P&G discouragement of using generative tools in discussion-space despite the reactions to it, when detected, being uniformly negative; c) having a policy can serve as a deterrent to using raw LLM output and could at least reduce outright hallucination. JoelleJay (talk) 02:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
If the aim is to encourage closers to disregard comments that are incoherent either semantically or contextually, then we should straight up say that. Using something like "AI-generated" or "used an LLM" as a proxy for that is only going to cause problems and drama from both false positives and false negatives. Judge the comment on its content not on its author. Thryduulf (talk) 02:39, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
If we want to discourage irresponsibly using LLMs in discussions -- and in every case I've encountered, apparent LLM-generated comments have met with near-universal disapproval -- this needs to be codified somewhere. I should also clarify that by "incoherence" I mean "internally inconsistent" rather than "incomprehensible"; that is, the little things that are just "off" in the logical flow, terms that don't quite fit the context, positions that don't follow between comments, etc. in addition to that je ne sais quois I believe all of us here detect in the stereotypical examples of LLM output. Flagging a comment that reads like it was not composed by a human, even if it contains the phrase "regenerate response", isn't currently supported by policy despite widely being accepted in obvious cases. JoelleJay (talk) 03:52, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
I feel that I'm sufficiently unfamiliar with LLM output to be confident in my ability to detect it, and I feel like we already have the tools we need to reject internally incoherent comments, particularly in the Misplaced Pages:Consensus policy, which says In determining consensus, consider the quality of the arguments, the history of how they came about, the objections of those who disagree, and existing policies and guidelines. The quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view. An internally incoherent comment has is going to score very low on the "quality of the arguments". WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:33, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Very extra strong oppose - The tools to detect are at best not great and I don't see the need. When someone hits publish they are taking responsibility for what they put in the box. That does not change when they are using a LLM. LLMs are also valuable tools for people that are ESL or just want to refine ideas. So without bullet proof detection this is doa. PackMecEng (talk) 01:21, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
We don't have bulletproof automated detection of close paraphrasing, either; most of that relies on individual subjective "I know it when I see it" interpretation of semantic similarity and substantial taking. JoelleJay (talk) 04:06, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
One is a legal issue the other is not. Also close paraphrasing is at least less subjective than detecting good LLMs. Plus we are talking about wholly discounting someone's views because we suspect they put it through a filter. That does not sit right with me. PackMecEng (talk) 13:38, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
For sure and I can see that concern, but I think the damage that does is less than the benefit it provides. Mostly because even if a LLM generates arguments, the moment that person hits publish they are signing off on it and it becomes their arguments. Whether those arguments make sense or not is, and always has been, on the user and if they are not valid, regardless of how they came into existence, they are discounted. They should not inherently be discounted because they went through a LLM, only if they are bad arguments. PackMecEng (talk) 14:57, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
While it’s true that the person publishing arguments takes responsibility, the use of a large language model (LLM) can blur the line of authorship. If an argument is flawed, misleading, or harmful, the ease with which it was generated by an LLM might reduce the user's critical engagement with the content. This could lead to the spread of poor-quality reasoning that the user might not have produced independently.
Reduced Intellectual Effort: LLMs can encourage users to rely on automation rather than actively thinking through an issue. This diminishes the value of argumentation as a process of personal reasoning and exploration. Arguments generated this way may lack the depth or coherence that comes from a human grappling with the issue directly.
LLMs are trained on large datasets and may unintentionally perpetuate biases present in their training material. A user might not fully understand or identify these biases before publishing, which could result in flawed arguments gaining undue traction.
Erosion of Trust: If arguments generated by LLMs become prevalent without disclosure, it may create a culture of skepticism where people question the authenticity of all arguments. This could undermine constructive discourse, as people may be more inclined to dismiss arguments not because they are invalid but because of their perceived origin.
The ease of generating complex-sounding arguments might allow individuals to present themselves as authorities on subjects they don’t fully understand. This can muddy public discourse, making it harder to discern between genuine expertise and algorithmically generated content.
Transparency is crucial in discourse. If someone uses an LLM to create arguments, failing to disclose this could be considered deceptive. Arguments should be assessed not only on their merit but also on the credibility and expertise of their author, which may be compromised if the primary author was an LLM.
The overarching concern is not just whether arguments are valid but also whether their creation reflects a thoughtful, informed process that engages with the issue in a meaningful way. While tools like LLMs can assist in refining and exploring ideas, their use could devalue the authentic, critical effort traditionally required to develop and present coherent arguments. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
See and I would assume this comment was written by a LLM, but that does not mean I discount it. I check and consider it as though it was completely written by a person. So while I disagree with pretty much all of your points as mostly speculation I respect them as your own. But it really just sounds like fear of the unknown and unenforceable. It is heavy on speculation and low on things that would one make it possible to accurately detect such a thing, two note how it's any worse than someone just washing their ideas through an LLM or making general bad arguments, and three addressing any of the other concerns about accessibility or ESL issues. It looks more like a moral panic than an actual problem. You end with the overarching concern is not just weather arguments are valid but also if their creation reflects a thoughtful, informed process that engages with the issues in a meaningful way and honestly that not a thing that can be quantified or even just a LLM issue. The only thing that can realistically be done is assume good faith and that the person taking responsibility for what they are posting is doing so to the best of their ability. Anything past that is speculation and just not of much value. PackMecEng (talk) 16:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Well now, partner, I reckon you’ve done gone and laid out yer argument slicker than a greased wagon wheel, but ol’ Prospector here’s got a few nuggets of wisdom to pan outta yer claim, so listen up, if ye will.
Now, ain't that a fine gold tooth in a mule’s mouth? Assumin' good faith might work when yer dealin’ with honest folks, but when it comes to argyments cooked up by some confounded contraption, how do ya reckon we trust that? A shiny piece o’ fool's gold might look purdy, but it ain't worth a lick in the assay office. Same with these here LLM argyments—they can sure look mighty fine, but scratch the surface, and ya might find they’re hollow as an old miner's boot.
Moral panic, ye say? Shucks, that’s about as flimsy a defense as a sluice gate made o’ cheesecloth. Ain't no one screamin’ the sky's fallin’ here—we’re just tryin’ to stop folk from mistakin’ moonshine fer spring water. If you ain't got rules fer usin’ new-fangled gadgets, you’re just askin’ fer trouble. Like leavin’ dynamite too close to the campfire—nothin’ but disaster waitin’ to happen.
Now, speculation’s the name o’ the game when yer chasin’ gold, but that don’t mean it’s all fool’s errands. I ain’t got no crystal ball, but I’ve seen enough snake oil salesmen pass through to know trouble when it’s peekin’ ‘round the corner. Dismissin’ these concerns as guesswork? That’s like ignorin’ the buzzin’ of bees ‘cause ye don’t see the hive yet. Ye might not see the sting comin’, but you’ll sure feel it.
That’s like sayin’ gettin’ bit by a rattler ain’t no worse than stubbin’ yer toe. Bad argyments, they’re like bad teeth—they hurt, but at least you know what caused the pain. These LLM-contrived argyments, though? They’re sneaky varmints, made to look clever without any real backbone. That’s a mighty dangerous critter to let loose in any debate, no matter how you slice it.
Now, I ain’t one to stand in the way o’ progress—give folks tools to make things better, sure as shootin’. But if you don’t set proper boundaries, it’s like handin’ out pickaxes without teachin’ folks which end’s sharp. Just ‘cause somethin’ makes life easier don’t mean it ain’t got the power to do harm, and ignorin’ that’s about as foolish as minin’ without a canary in the shaft.
Quantify thoughtfulness? That’s like measurin’ a sunset in ounces, friend. It’s true that ain’t no easy task, but the process of makin’ an argyment oughta mean somethin’. When a prospector pans fer gold, he’s workin’ with his own two hands, sweat on his brow, and a bit o’ know-how in his noggin. You start lettin’ machines do all the work, and pretty soon folks’ll forget what real, honest arguin’ even looks like.
Fear o’ the unknown, is it? Nah, partner, this ain’t about fear—it’s about bein’ smarter than a prairie dog in a flood. Progress don’t mean tossin’ caution to the wind like a fool. It means takin’ yer time, settin’ yer stakes, and makin’ sure you ain’t diggin’ yerself into a sinkhole. Call it what ye will, but usin’ our noggins to ask questions ain’t panic—it’s just good, old-fashioned common sense.
So there ya have it. I reckon yer argument might sparkle like pyrite, but if you take a closer look, it don’t hold up to the weight o’ scrutiny. Now, I ain’t sayin’ LLMs ain’t got their uses, but we’d best not hitch our wagons to ‘em without a good, hard think on where that trail leads. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:26, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
To make my actual point, you said, I check and consider it as though it was completely written by a person. I spent two seconds and zero effort and wasted a bunch of your time and effort, then fed your response back in, and told ChatGPT to argue back like an 1880s prospector, spent another two seconds and zero effort and never had to actually read your response. Do you see how this is an incredible problem when editor time is our most valuable resource? Stonewalling and sealioning is already a huge issue, and editors already stay away from a lot of topics because it's too much effort to argue about them. Allowing an automatic sealion-and-argue button isn't good. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:30, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
And it took me just a couple minutes to read it, note it was AI, but still consider the points and respond. It was not a high burden on someone's volunteer time. If someone wants to spend their time on something that is on them. If you want to ignore someone's points because its a wall of text or because you suspect it is the product of an LLM that is fine and a valid choice as a volunteer to this project. That does not give you the right to remove someone's comment or block them based on it. I don't see it as disruptive unless it is nonsense or wrong. PackMecEng (talk) 16:43, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
I disagree that just because I'm not compelled to read comments by others, that any time spent is on me when someone repeatedly makes redundant, overly verbose, or poorly-written comments. Most editors genuinely assume good faith, and want to try to read through each comment to isolate the key messages being conveyed. (I've written before about how being respectful of other editors includes being respectful of their time.) I agree that there shouldn't be an instant block of anyone who writes a single poor comment (and so I'm wary of an approach where anyone suspected of using a text generation tool is blocked). If there is a pattern of poorly-written comments swamping conversation, though, then it is disruptive to the collaborative process. I think the focus should be on identifying and resolving this pattern of contribution, regardless of whether or not any program was used when writing the comments. isaacl (talk) 00:14, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
It's a pitfall with English Misplaced Pages's unmoderated discussion tradition: it's always many times the effort to follow the rules than to not. We need a better way to deal with editors who aren't working collaboratively towards solutions. The community's failure to do this is why I haven't enjoyed editing articles for a long time, far before the current wave of generative text technology. More poor writing will hardly be a ripple in the ocean. isaacl (talk) 18:21, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
I tend to agree with this.
I think that what @ScottishFinnishRadish is pointing at is that it doesn't feel fair if one person puts a lot more effort in than the other. We don't want this:
Editor: Spends half an hour writing a long explanation.
Troll: Pushes button to auto-post an argument.
Editor: Spends an hour finding sources to support the claim.
Troll: Laughs while pushing a button to auto-post another argument.
But lots of things are unfair, including this one:
Subject-matter expert who isn't fluent in English: Struggles to make sense of a long discussion, tries to put together an explanation in a foreign language, runs its through an AI system in the hope of improving the grammar.
Editor: Revert, you horrible LLM-using troll! It's so unfair of you to waste my time with your AI garbage. The fact that you use AI demonstrates your complete lack of sincerity.
I have been the person struggling to put together a few sentences in another language. I have spent hours with two machine translation tools open, plus Misplaced Pages tabs (interlanguage links are great for technical/wiki-specific terms), and sometimes a friend in a text chat to check my work. I have tried hard to get it right. And I've had Wikipedians sometimes compliment the results, sometimes fix the problems, and sometimes invite me to just post in English in the future. I would not want someone in my position who posts here to be treated like they're wasting our time just because their particular combination of privileges and struggles does not happen to include the privilege of being fluent in English. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:04, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Sure, I agree it's not fair that some editors don't spend any effort in raising their objections (however they choose to write them behind the scenes), yet expect me to expend a lot of effort in responding. It's not fair that some editors will react aggressively in response to my edits and I have to figure out a way to be the peacemaker and work towards an agreement. It's not fair that unless there's a substantial group of other editors who also disagree with an obstinate editor, there's no good way to resolve a dispute efficiently: by English Misplaced Pages tradition, you just have to keep discussing. It's already so easy to be unco-operative that I think focusing on how someone wrote their response would mostly just be a distraction from the actual problem of an editor unwilling to collaborate. isaacl (talk) 06:01, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
It's not that it doesn't feel fair, it's that it is disruptive and is actually happening now. See this and this. Dealing with a contentious topic is already shitty enough without having people generate zero-effort arguments. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:54, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
People generate zero-effort arguments has been happened for far longer than LLMs have existed. Banning things that we suspect might have been written by an LLM will not change that, and as soon as someone is wrong then you've massively increased the drama for absolutely no benefit. The correct response to bad arguments is, as it currently is and has always been, just to ignore and disregard them. Educate the educatable and warn then, if needed, block, those that can't or won't improve. Thryduulf (talk) 12:13, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Ah, so you think you’ve got it all figured out, huh? Well, let me tell ya somethin’, pal, your little spiel ain’t gonna fly without me takin’ a crack at it. See, you’re sittin’ there talkin’ about “good faith” and “moral panic” like you’re some kinda big shot philosopher, but lemme break it down for ya in plain terms, capisce?First off, you wanna talk about assumin’ good faith. Sure, that’s a nice little dream ya got there, but out here in the real world, good faith don’t get ya far if you’re dealin’ with somethin’ you can’t trust. An LLM can spit out all the sweet-talkin’ words it wants, but who’s holdin’ the bag when somethin’ goes sideways? Nobody, that’s who. It’s like lettin’ a guy you barely know run your numbers racket—might look good on paper till the feds come knockin’.And moral panic? Oh, give me a break. You think I’m wringin’ my hands over nothin’? No, no, this ain’t panic, it’s strategy. Ya gotta think two steps ahead, like a good game o’ poker. If you don’t plan for what could go wrong, you’re just beggin’ to get taken for a ride. That ain’t panic, pal, that’s street smarts.Now, you say this is all speculation, huh? Listen, kid, speculation’s what built half the fortunes in this town, but it don’t mean it’s without a little insight. When I see a guy sellin’ “too good to be true,” I know he’s holdin’ somethin’ behind his back. Same thing with these LLMs—just ‘cause you can’t see the trouble right away don’t mean it ain’t there, waitin’ to bite ya like a two-bit hustler double-crossin’ his boss.Then you go and say it’s no worse than bad arguments. Oh, come on! That’s like sayin’ counterfeit dough ain’t worse than real dough with a little coffee stain. A bad argument from a real person? At least ya know where it came from and who to hold accountable. But these machine-made arguments? They look sharp, sound slick, and fool the unsuspectin’—that’s a whole new level of trouble.Now, about this “accessibility” thing. Sure, makin’ things easier for folks is all well and good. But lemme ask ya, what happens when you hand over tools like this without makin’ sure people know how to use ‘em right? You think I’d hand over a Tommy gun to some rookie without a clue? No way! Same goes for these LLMs. You gotta be careful who’s usin’ ‘em and how, or you’re just askin’ for a mess.And don’t get me started on the “thoughtfulness” bit. Yeah, yeah, I get it, it’s hard to measure. But look, buddy, thoughtful arguments are like good business deals—they take time, effort, and a little bit o’ heart. If you let machines churn out arguments, you’re missin’ the whole point of what makes discourse real. It’s like replacin’ a chef with a vending machine—you might still get somethin’ to eat, but the soul’s gone.Finally, fear of the unknown? Nah, that ain’t it. This ain’t fear—it’s caution. Any smart operator knows you don’t just jump into a deal without seein’ all the angles. What you’re callin’ fear, I call good business sense. You wanna bet the farm on untested tech without thinkin’ it through? Be my guest, but don’t come cryin’ to me when it all goes belly-up.So there ya go, wise guy. You can keep singin’ the praises of these LLMs all you want, but out here in the big leagues, we know better than to trust somethin’ just ‘cause it talks smooth. Now, get outta here before you step on somethin’ you can’t scrape off.
Oppose. I agree with Thryduulf. Discussion comments which are incoherent, meaningless, vacuous, excessively verbose, or based on fabricated evidence can all be disposed of according to their content, irrespective of how they were originally created. Acute or repeated instances of such behavior by a user can lead to sanctions. We should focus on the substance of the comments (or lack thereof), not on whether text came from LLMs, which will too often be based on unreliable detection and vibes. Adumbrativus (talk) 05:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
I can detect some instances of LLM use perfectly OK without having to use any tool. The question then raised is of how often it is used not-so-ineptly. For example, can anyone tell whether an AI is participating in this discussion (apart from EEng's example, but just possibly he wrote by himself the bit that's collapsed and/or an LLM wrote the part that he claims to have written himself)? I don't know how good AI is currently, but I'm sure that it will get better to the extent that it will be undetectable. I would like all discussions on Misplaced Pages to be among humans but I'm not sure whether this proposal would be enforceable, so am on the fence about it. In a way I'm glad that I'm old, so won't see the consequences of AI, but my grandchildren will. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:32, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
In my opinion, having a policy that permits closers to discount apparently-LLM-generated contributions will discourage good-faith editors from using LLMs irresponsibly and perhaps motivate bad-faith editors to edit the raw output to appear more human, which would at least involve some degree of effort and engagement with their "own" arguments. JoelleJay (talk) 00:51, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Oppose. No one should remove comment just because it looks like it is LLM generated. Many times non native speakers might use it to express their thoughts coherently. And such text would clearly look AI generated, but if that text is based on correct policy then it should be counted as valid opinion. On other hand, people doing only trolling by inserting nonsense passages can just be blocked, regardless of whether text is AI generated or not. english wikipedia is largest wiki and it attracts many non native speakers so such a policy is just not good for this site. -- Parnaval (talk) 11:13, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
If someone is a non-native speaker with poor English skills, how can they be sure that the AI-generated response is actually what they genuinely want to express? and, to be honest, if their English skills are so poor as to need AI to express themselves, shouldn't we be politely suggesting that they would be better off contributing on their native Misplaced Pages? Black Kite (talk)11:37, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Reading comprehension skills and writing skills in foreign languages are very frequently not at the same level, it is extremely plausible that someone will be able to understand whether the AI output is what they want to express without having been able to write it themselves directly. Thryduulf (talk) 11:41, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
That is very true. For example I can read and speak Polish pretty fluently, and do so every day, but I would not trust myself to be able to write to a discussion on Polish Misplaced Pages without some help, whether human or artificial. But I also wouldn't want to, because I can't write the language well enough to be able to edit articles. I think the English Misplaced Pages has many more editors who can't write the language well than others because it is both the largest one and the one written in the language that much of the world uses for business and higher education. We may wish that people would concentrate on other-language Wikipedias but most editors want their work to be read by as many people as possible. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Support, more or less. There are times when an LLM can help with paraphrasing or translation, but it is far too prone to hallucination to be trusted for any sort of project discussion. There is also the issue of wasting editor time dealing with arguments and false information created by an LLM. The example Selfstudier links to above is a great example. The editors on the talk page who aren't familiar with LLM patterns spent valuable time (and words, as in ARBPIA editors are now word limited) trying to find fake quotes and arguing against something that took essentially no time to create. I also had to spend a chunk of time checking the sources, cleaning up the discussion, and warning the editor. Forcing editors to spend valuable time arguing with a machine that doesn't actually comprehend what it's arguing is a no-go for me. As for the detection, for now it's fairly obvious to anyone who is fairly familiar with using an LLM when something is LLM generated. The detection tools available online are basically hot garbage. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:55, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Soft support - Concur that completely LLM-generated comments should be disallowed, LLM-assisted comments (i.e. - I write a comment and then use LLMs as a spell-check/grammar engine) are more of a grey-area and shouldn't be explicitly disallowed. (ping on reply) Sohom (talk) 14:03, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
With my closer's hat on: if an AI raises a good and valid argument, then you know what? There's a good and valid argument and I'll give weight to it. But if an AI makes a point that someone else has already made in the usual waffly AI style, then I'm going to ignore it.—S MarshallT/C18:33, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Oppose as written. I'm with Rhododendrites in that we should give a more general caution rather than a specific rule. A lot of the problems here can be resolved by enforcing already-existing expectations. If someone is making a bunch of hollow or boiler-plate comments, or if they're bludgeoning, then we should already be asking them to engage more constructively, LLM or otherwise. I also share above concerns about detection tools being insufficient for this purpose and advise people not to use them to evaluate editor conduct. (Also, can we stop with the "strong" supports and opposes? You don't need to prove you're more passionate than the guy next to you.) Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:04, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Oppose as written. There's already enough administrative discretion to handle this on a case-by-case basis. In agreement with much of the comments above, especially the concern that generative text can be a tool to give people access who might not otherwise (due to ability, language) etc. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 06:12, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Strong support LLMs are a sufficiently advanced form of the Automatic Complaint-Letter Generator (1994). Output of LLMs should be collapsed and the offender barred from further discussion on the subject. Inauthentic behavior. Pollutes the discussion. At the very least, any user of an LLM should be required to disclose LLM use on their user page and to provide a rationale. A new user group can also be created (LLM-talk-user or LLM-user) to mark as such, by self or by the community. Suspected sockpuppets + suspected LLM users. The obvious patterns in output are not that hard to detect, with high degrees of confidence. As to "heavily edited" output, where is the line? If someone gets "suggestions" on good points, they should still write entirely in their own words. A legitimate use of AI may be to summarize walls of text. Even then, caution and not to take it at face value. You will end up with LLMs arguing with other LLMs. Lines must be drawn. Sentiment analysis to evaluate civility may also be legitimate, if not taken at face value and if mutually consented to by both parties. See also: WikiProject AI Cleanup, are they keeping up with how fast people type a prompt and click a button? Skullers (talk) 07:45, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
I support the proposal that obvious LLM-generated !votes in discussions should be discounted by the closer or struck (the practical difference should be minimal). Additionally, users who do this can be warned using the appropriate talk page templates (e.g. Template:Uw-ai1), which are now included in Twinkle. I oppose the use of automated tools like GPTZero as the primary or sole method of determining whether comments are generated by LLMs. LLM comments are usually glaringly obvious (section headers within the comment, imprecise puffery, and at AfD an obvious misunderstanding of notability policies and complete disregard for sources). If LLM-ness is not glaringly obvious, it is not a problem, and we should not be going after editors for their writing style or because some tool says they look like a bot. Toadspike10:29, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
I also think closers should generally be more aggressive in discarding arguments counter to policy and all of us should be more aggressive in telling editors bludgeoning discussions with walls of text to shut up. These also happen to be the two main symptoms of LLMs. Toadspike10:41, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Criteria for speedy deletion § RfC: Enacting T5 (unused template subpages). HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 03:01, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
Comment: It would appear Jimbo responded indirectly in a interview: 
