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November 28

Nudity in US media

Today I discovered something really interesting, but I'm not sure I understand it, so I need to ask a question. How much did social mores about nudity in the media change in the US over the entirety of the 20th century? I'm not talking about the history of fashion, which is fairly well documented, but the use of nudity in newspapers, magazines, television, and film. I recall reading that they changed quite a bit for this or that reason, but I don't remember the precipitating events. Here's why I'm asking this question:

Google hosts a free archive for Life magazine, which I recall being adventurous, experimental, and innovative, but also fairly socially conservative for its time given that it was a vehicle for American advertisers to sell their products and they wouldn't want to upset their readers. Fast forward to today. I was browsing the Feb 4, 1952 issue, when there on page 77 is a woman turned away from the camera, completely naked. For 1952, and for Life magazine, this seems unusual. European readers might be laughing about now, but in the US, the only nudity in the media that was ever allowed, at least from what I recall, was in National Geographic, and I don't even know the history or story behind that, so that's a separate question.

My hunch is that the 1952 photo in Life got by the censors because 1) the photo is used to illustrate an article about art, and in this case, life drawing, and 2) if one isn't looking closely the nude woman looks like a statue, not a real person. Did this photo get by the censors, or was it allowed? The reason I'm asking, is that aside from National Geographic in 1952, I was unaware of nude photos in major American media. There's probably a really interesting history behind this, so if someone knows the answer, I'm all ears. Viriditas (talk) 23:38, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Life Magazine treated art photography as art. Here is a 1948 example. --jpgordon 04:59, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

It looks like things changed from 1947-1959 during the era of McCarthyism. Am I reading this right? Did the US become more conservative just before the rise of the counterculture in the 1960s? I was completely unaware that nude art photography was ever published in mainstream magazines. And it looks like it became quite liberal in the 1970s, swinging back to conservatism again in the 1980s. I remember in the 1970s there were all these seedy adult movie theaters that disappeared in the 1980s. Then in the late 1990s you had another liberalization occur. And now we're back to conservatism again. Viriditas (talk) 06:47, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Have you read Censorship in the United States? Shantavira| 11:25, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes. There's nothing about this specific topic, namely art photography in magazines during this time. Viriditas (talk) 17:20, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

See also: Hays Code. 136.56.165.118 (talk) 20:41, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Possibly tangential, but The Pawnbroker (1964) was "the first film featuring bare breasts to receive Production Code approval. Although it was publicly announced to be a special exception, the controversy proved to be first of similar major challenges to the Code that ultimately led to its abrogation." -- Jack of Oz 01:25, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

But of course the Code was industry self-regulation, in a uniquely organized industry.

As for what a U.S. magazine could get away with in 1954: consider that Playboy was founded in 1953 and was running "tasteful" nude centerfolds from the outset, so for Life in 1954 it was probably more a matter of how their readers and advertisers would react than a serious likelihood of being accused of obscenity, at least at the federal level. I am sure there were jurisdictions where either or both had some problems. - Jmabel | Talk 04:50, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Curiously, from 1955 to 1963 Playboy centerfolds' nipples were obscured more often than not. (I cannot say about the rest of the magazine; I have never seen one earlier than late sixties.) —Tamfang (talk) 20:38, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

In the United States, serious attempts to legally outlaw artistic nudes pretty much ended with the immmediately pre-WW1 "September Morn" controversy. Controls on importing literary works with references to sexuality into the United States were diminished with the 1933 United States v. One Book Called Ulysses case. If there were any "censors" in 1952 reviewing the contents of Life magazine before publication, they were employees of Time Inc., and not from any government or publishing industry organization. By the way, for an interesting 1957 humorous take on commercial limitations to free expression and what would today be called "political correctness", see the song and spoken-word performance "Elderly Man River", by Stan Freberg... AnonMoos (talk) 11:30, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

December 1

Who designed the flag of the American Indian Movement and when?

The flag of the American Indian Movement is fairly iconic and featured in the article about the movement. However I haven't been able to find any sources about who made the flag and when. Does anybody have any information on when it was first flown, who made it, etc? Thanks! Intervex (talk) 00:09, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Googling "who designed american indian movement flag" yields an AI item that says it was designed by someone named Jon Lurie. More about it here, though it doesn't say when. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:45, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Looks like Lurie was the author of the encyclopedia entry, I'm afraid: . Intervex (talk) 00:51, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I found a similar flag that has the same central symbol which is attributed to the first Longest Walk in 1978 (File:Longest Walk at Washington, 1978.jpg). This is the earliest version of the flag I've been able to find. Intervex (talk) 04:15, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Editing a Misplaced Pages subtitle (?) seen in Android but not Windows

When I open Charles-Émile Trudeau on my Android phone I see in what I will call a subtitle below his name that he was a "French Businessman (1887-1935)". (Charles-Émile Trudeau was father of Canadian Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau and grandfather of current Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.) But he was French-Canadian (born in Quebec), not French, and I would like to correct this.

But I prefer to edit on my computer in Windows, where I don't see "French Businessman..." at all.

What Misplaced Pages 'element' is the (visible only on Android) subtitle "French Businessman (1887-1935)", and how can I edit it in Windows? Hayttom (talk) 00:14, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

It's in the "Short description" (WP:SHORTDESC)... -- AnonMoos (talk) 00:27, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm in Windows, so it doesn't show up on the normal article page, but if you EDIT, it's the first line of the article. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:38, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you both, @AnonMoos and @Baseball Bugs for your quick supportive responses. The "how to edit" did not work for me - I don't see it the way it is described - but I do indeed see the Short Description when editing as @Baseball Bugs explained. Hayttom (talk) 00:43, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

If you go into your Preferences on desktop, in the Gadgets section there's a tick box under Editing which allows you to see and edit the short description. --Viennese Waltz 06:56, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

What can I cite about Tommy Lasorda pitching during batting practice?

This is obviously for Baseball Bugs... Our Charles-Émile Trudeau article leads to the Montreal Royals article which leads to our Tommy Lasorda article which does NOT mention him often (?) throwing pitches during Dodgers batting practice, which I think I saw him do (before an Expos game) but possibly only on TV. I Googled "tommy lasorda pitching batting practice" but I don't think that provided any good enough information source. Baseball Bugs, can you find one? (Do you remember seeing Tommy throwing pitches at batting practice?) Hayttom (talk) 01:07, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

That sounds familiar. I would have to look in Newspapers.com. There might be something in his obituary, if nothing else. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:15, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

There were a couple of anecdotes in the wake of Lasorda's death which mentioned him throwing batting practice, at least during the time he was a coach for the Dodgers. Don't know if he still did that once he became the Dodgers' manager. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:06, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

December 2

East Pakistan minorities

An editor named pigsonwing removed my question as trolling. Don't know why he thinks like that.

Above it is written that "We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need."

I read two Misplaced Pages articles 1950 East Pakistan riots and 1964 East Pakistan riots and thought how media reported it at that time when it happened.

I am trying to find more old newspaper archives like this:

1- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/131860850?searchTerm=1950%20east%20pakistan%20hindu

2- https://www.nytimes.com/1950/02/24/archives/pakistan-incited-riots-says-nehru-india-leader-says-antihindu.html

3- https://www.nytimes.com/1964/01/24/archives/riots-arouse-moslem-shame.html

4- https://www.nytimes.com/1964/02/23/archives/hindus-and-christians-fleeing-east-pakistan-throngs-of-refugees.html Sistersofchappel (talk) 03:41, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @User:Pigsonthewing. Shantavira| 16:03, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

You could try Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request, especially if you have a particular publication in mind. Alansplodge (talk) 20:31, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Not any particular publication but any newspaper report(scanned or archived) during that period which mentions violence against minorities, like you posted few hours ago and then changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sistersofchappel (talk • contribs) 02:23, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Apologies, it wasn't intentional. Here it is again: https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/digitised/issue/indiandailymail19500316-14

That's all I could find. Somebody with a newspaper archive account might do better. Alansplodge (talk) 16:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Behaviour of a monkey in this painting

What would you say the monkey dressed in yellow and red, in the foreground, is doing in this painting?

https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:David_Teniers_(II)_-_Smoking_and_drinking_monkeys.jpg 194.120.133.17 (talk) 23:17, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Preparing to grind more tobacco for his friends to smoke? Clarityfiend (talk) 01:13, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Or is collecting the ground tobacco in a paper? Tobacco was supplied as whole dried and pressed leaves that had to be prepared at home. Alansplodge (talk) 16:38, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Based on the attire and attitude, the foreground monkey is not a member of the jolly company but a servant or perhaps the innkeeper.  --Lambiam 10:23, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

BTW, this wikicode:
]
makes a nice wikilink to the image:
File:David Teniers (II) - Smoking and drinking monkeys.jpg
--CiaPan (talk) 19:16, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

The Amsterdam Pipe Museum states "we can hardly imagine how difficult it was to get your pipe lit. Our seventeenth-century ancestors used a coal, removed from the open fire with a fire tong and handed it in a brazier. With the fireplace tongs or a smaller one you could put a glowing coal on the pipe bowl." I think the monkey is crouched over a brazier, and the two little sticks propped up in the brazier are a tiny pair of tongs, another pair being in use by the monkey at the table. The monkey of interest certainly appears to be doing something with tobacco and paper, over the hot brazier. I don't know what.

In fact I'm not even right about the tongs: in this similar painting the same objects are clearly stick-like. But I think they hold embers somehow. There's a lot of them, I count 10, so presumably they're consumable, something like a Splint (laboratory equipment)?

Looking through Teniers's many paintings of smokers (there's a commons category), I see many figures doing the exact same thing over a little pottery brazier. #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6. Some are apparently rubbing the tobacco (what's meant by "ready-rubbed"?) but some are just heating it and placidly staring at it.  Card Zero  (talk) 09:25, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Drying it, perhaps? Johnbod (talk) 16:28, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps, but why do they all have wet tobacco? Perhaps the idea is to make the fragments shrivel up so they pack more densely into the pipe.  Card Zero  (talk) 16:32, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

It might be much fresher than we get it, pre-dried, today. Also at this period Netherlandish smokers of the rougher sort typically mixed their (expensive) tobacco with rather dangerous local plants like deadly nightshade, in English going under the rather non-specific term dwale (which we cover very poorly). That might need drying. Johnbod (talk) 16:56, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Wow, that sounds very dangerous (especially the lettuce). I thought Curing of tobacco was always done, and since it involve weeks of drying, sometimes up a chimney, five minutes extra drying seems confusingly futile. But maybe they cut corners on the curing in the early days?  Card Zero  (talk) 17:41, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, "ready rubbed" means you don't have to rub it with your fingers/ in your palms to break it up into strands. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:49, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Is it our erstwhile leader preparing a White Paper for the Tobacco and Vapes Bill? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:31, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

December 3

Duchess Marie's adopted child.

According to Gill, Gillian (2009). We Two: Victoria and Albert: Rulers, Partners, Rivals. New York: Ballatine Books. p. 408. ISBN 978-0-345-52001-2. "By 1843, Duchess Marie had adopted a child of humble parentage and was bringing him or her up as her own." Do we know anything more about this child? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 20:51, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

December 4

Subnational laws

In all federations, are there laws that differ between subdivisions, such as states, provinces, cantons or parts of countries like Bosnia-Hertzegovina or Belgium? Are there any laws that are dedicated to provinces of Argentina, Brazil, India, Mexico, Germany or Austria, or cantons of Switzerland? And in countries like US, Canada or Australia, are there any local laws that differ between local governments? --40bus (talk) 20:16, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Links to a number of relevant articles at State law... -- AnonMoos (talk) 21:17, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, not sure I'm a big fan of that page. It has one blue link, to US state law. All the other links are red, and many are to titles that would not naturally exist at all, unless maybe as redirects-from-misnomers or something. For example state law (Germany)? What's that? The German Länder are not called "states". --Trovatore (talk) 21:56, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

(I went ahead and searched, and to my bemusement our article on the Länder is at states of Germany. Hmm. I don't think that's a good title. I've always heard them called Länder, untranslated. They're broadly analogous to US states, I suppose, but not really the same thing.) --Trovatore (talk) 22:13, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I've been looking at Law of Texas in order to verify if its specifical statutes visibly differ from the German cases where the concept of Succession of states comes into question: following analyses exposed in de:Land (Deutschland) in German Misplaced Pages. "Succession of states" as discussed in that last article has a focus probably more highly contrasted in matter of "rights and obligations" than would apply to U.S. States. In the case of Texas law for example I note the importance of Common law as a defining influence, whereas in German law the same unifying level is rooted very differently. I imagine that the american linguistic pluralism at root also implies some repercussions in classes of problems turning to the inside rather than to abroad. Consequently perhaps the specific problems that appear and were shown in the idea of Secession. --Askedonty (talk) 00:16, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

@Askedonty: I'm really having trouble following that. What are you trying to figure out here? Is it about whether Land is reasonably translated as "state" in the sense that it's used in "US state"? If it is, I don't really follow the argument; I'm not even sure whether you're arguing for or against. If it's not then I'm even more confused. --Trovatore (talk) 01:06, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

German Misplaced Pages define the U.S.A. as a "föderal aufgebaute Republik" which is absolutely similar to the German "Bundesrepublik". To anybody there is a strange feeling at equating "State" with "Land" so I do not see what reluctance there has to be seeing there is an explanation for it. --Askedonty (talk) 01:19, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

No reluctance; I just wanted to understand better the structure of your argument. It was a little hard to figure out what you were getting at. --Trovatore (talk) 01:22, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

(Actually now I'm not sure about the "no reluctance" part, because on re-reading "I do not see what reluctance there has to be", I don't actually understand what that means either.) --Trovatore (talk) 01:28, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Ok, no problem. "Länder" means that Germans living there might be have their families rooted there for ages. I do not think that aspect can be translated without some circumlocutions. --Askedonty (talk) 01:44, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

In several languages, the usual term for a Land of the FRG uses a part that is cognate to state. For example: Basque Alemaniako estatuak (pl), Danish Tysklands delstater (pl), Italian Stati federati della Germania (pl); Spanish Estado federado (Alemania). When used for a specific Land and no confusion with the sense of "federal state" can occur, this is often simplified, as in Italian lo stato di Baden-Württemberg.  --Lambiam 08:21, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

If the subdivisions have separate legislatures, there are bound to be differences.  --Lambiam 22:33, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

The original question asks in countries like US...are there any local laws that differ.... In the US, "local" usually means city or county level. This will vary from state to state, but typically city and county laws are called "ordinances" and regulate comparatively lesser matters than state law (state law handles almost all one-on-one violent crime, for example). City ordinances tend to be about things like how often you have to mow your lawn or whether you can drink alcohol in public. Violations are usually "infractions" with relatively light penalties (though fines can be fairly heavy in some cases, like for removing a tree that you're not supposed to remove in Woodside, California). --Trovatore (talk) 23:02, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Like the USA, Australia is a federation of states, so it has federal (national) laws, state level laws, and municipality based laws. The latter are like city laws in the US, but not all our towns are called cities. Unlike the USA, our constitution is primarily about what states are responsible for and what the federal government is responsible for. HiLo48 (talk) 03:33, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

As with most things in the US, the distinction (if any) between "town" and "city" varies state-to-state. I'm most familiar with California, which has no official legal distinction, but the municipality in question can call itself "town" or "city" as it pleases, usually depending on whether it wants to give the suggestion that it's semi-rural (see Town of Los Altos Hills). Completely different are the New England towns, which I don't know much about except what I've read in Misplaced Pages. --Trovatore (talk) 03:56, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

The US Constitution does, in fact, delineate the powers of states and of the federal government. American states are not "subdivisions", they are separate entities which joined the USA. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 07:14, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Many subdivisions of current sovereign states, all over the world, were at some time themselves independent sovereign states that later gave up their sovereignty, sometimes not entirely voluntarily, and joined a larger entity. The USA is not exceptional.  --Lambiam 09:42, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

The American states have not given up their sovereignty. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:08, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Then why don't they apply for UN membership? Too much effort?  --Lambiam 03:40, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

It's a different concept of sovereignty. The theory of sovereignty in much of the world is that it has to be unique; there is only one sovereign at a given place and time. The US, at least historically, explicitly rejects that idea, embracing divided sovereignty instead. --Trovatore (talk) 03:49, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

For that matter, recognized Indian tribes in the U.S. also have partial sovereignty, their own courts, etc. - Jmabel | Talk 05:12, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Readers who want to know more about this can check out our article on tribal sovereignty in the United States. Lots of interesting complications if you like that sort of thing. --Trovatore (talk) 19:44, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Lambiam -- In the second half of the 1940s, when Stalin was arranging things so that the Byelorussian SSR and the Ukrainian SSR had separate memberships in the United Nations (distinct from the Soviet Union's overall membership), he offered to agree to several U.S. states being admitted to the U.N. but the U.S. didn't take him up on it. AnonMoos (talk) 00:03, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I did not know that. Wow. Which states in particular were OK with Uncle Joe? Or was it just a number, let the states play musical chairs for it? --Trovatore (talk) 20:01, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Texas, Texas, Texas, Texas and Texas. —Tamfang (talk) 20:42, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it didn't get that far (probably stayed within the Truman White House and State Department), since it would have been a violation of the U.S. Constitution ("No State shall, without the Consent of Congress...enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power"). AnonMoos (talk) 00:12, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I suspect that the U.S. is at the extreme of how much laws about rather important matters vary from one jurisdiction to another: at the state level, differences include: whether or not there is a death penalty and (if so) under what circumstances it can be applied; whether cannabis is legal, and almost everything about its regulation (and more or less the same about alcohol, though no state currently has an outright ban); what is the minimum wage (defaulting to the federal minimum wage if the state does not pass its own); almost everything to do with education; almost everything about how elections are run. Also, since Dobbs, pretty much everything about abortion. In some areas, federal law reliably trumps state law, but not in everything (there is relatively little the federal government can do to prevent a state from passing a criminal law, other than either challenge it as unconstitutional or threaten to withhold funds unless they change it).

U.S. states usually have more ability to limit what smaller jurisdictions can do, so they can preempt local ordinances (usually the term, rather than "laws", at the city/town/etc. level, but just as enforceable). Still, often they don't do that, even in ways where you'd think they would. Where I live in Washington state, the minimum wage varies from county to county and city to city, with the state setting only a "minimum minimum". And it gets even more confusing because, for example, King County sets a minimum wage for unincorporated areas of the county, with incorporated communities able to go higher or lower. In Texas, the legality of selling alcohol is a "local option" patchwork. And sovereignty gets trickier in terms of Indian reservations, hence the "Indian casinos" even in states where gambling is otherwise illegal.

And, yeah, that's just more about the U.S., but I think people from elsewhere have trouble imagining what a patchwork it is here. - Jmabel | Talk 05:12, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

In Mexico: I know Mexico City legalized gay marriage years before the rest of the country. But if we have a decent article on federalism in Mexico, I haven't seen it.

In Spain, Catalonia semi-legalized cannabis (allowing "cannabis clubs"); there has been a bit of a fight back and forth with the central government over whether they can do that. And, of course, in Spain each autonomous community makes its own decisions about much of the educational system (which often involves laws) and most have opted to have responsibility for a health system devolved to them, though some have chosen not to take that on. For more on Spain, you can look at Autonomous communities of Spain#Constitutional and statutory framework. - Jmabel | Talk 05:23, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

December 5

BAA

BAA ambiguous meaning in context of aviation in UK, could you please check the discussion here 🙏 Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 07:30, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

@Gryllida This is the humanities reference desk. Do you have a question on humanities? Shantavira| 10:15, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 10:20, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

UK politics/senate

Hi, is this factually accurate link Thanks. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 07:59, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

See above. Shantavira| 10:15, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 10:21, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Scipion-Virginie Hébert (1793-1830)

December 6

Provenance of some sculptures

There are a bunch of reliefs worked into the wall of the garden (rear) side of the former Casa Storck, now Frederic Storck and Cecilia Cuțescu-Storck Museum, in Bucharest. I can't tell whether they are older pieces collected by Frederic Storck (he certainly collected a number of such pieces; some are in the museum) or his own work, or a mix of the two. Clearly for some of these, if they are his own work they would have been imitative of older styles, but he was enough of a chameleon at times that I would not rule that out. (I had originally presumed they were all his, but I'm having second thoughts.) Wondering if anyone might know something more solid than I do; there is nothing in particular about this I've been easily able to find, except that they seem to date back at least very close to the origin of the building (1910s).

• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• Several more here

Jmabel | Talk 04:20, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Given my uncertainty, I've put these in a new commons:Category:Unidentified works in the Frederic and Cecilia Cuțescu Storck Museum that does not imply authorship by Frederic Storck. - Jmabel | Talk 04:28, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

No one with an idea on any of these? - Jmabel | Talk 19:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Georges Jacques Danton

December 7

Why did Pippi Longstocking end up never getting married in her adulthood?

AKA her actress, Inger Nilsson. A lot of suitors would admire famous actresses and trample on each other to have a chance to court them, so a lot of actors and actresses end up getting married, but how come Pippi's actress never got married nor had kids after growing into an adult? --2600:100A:B032:25F0:1D7A:CC5D:1FC2:21E2 (talk) 06:17, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Do you know for certain that she wasn't/isn't married and/or has children? If so, from what source?

Some actors do not choose to make their private life public, so perhaps she was/is and does, and if not, many people (including my elderly single self) are simply not interested in getting married and/or having children. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.211.243 (talk) 11:37, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

She's still among the living, so maybe you could find a way to contact her, and ask her that nosy question. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:24, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

If she really could "lift her horse one-handed", I suspect even male fellow equestrians would be very wary suitors. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:35, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

As an adult, she has chosen to keep her private life private. So be it. --136.56.165.118 (talk) 19:48, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I suspect that famous actresses actually try to avoid suitors that admire famous actresses. They don't want to marry someone who is in love with a fake public persona created by the PR department of a studio. Not only actors and actresses, but also a lot of bakers, chemists, dentists, engineers and so on do end up getting married. Being famous does not help.  --Lambiam 13:05, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I imagine she particularly would not welcome suitors who admired her as a preteen. —Tamfang (talk) 20:47, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

December 8

Petosiris of Arabia

The rendering of פטסרי as Petosiris seems to take inspiration from the far-flung. Is this the same name? If osiris is Osiris, what's the pt pt? Temerarius (talk) 22:49, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

The source to which this is cited has throughout Peṭosriris. However, the transcription of Briquel-Chatonnet has pṭsry. Roche states the name means « qu’Osiris a donné ».  --Lambiam 18:33, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

December 9

Tribes and inceldom

One common saying in incel subcultures is that women are "programmed" to only have relationships with the 20% top men. This appears to be consistent (o at least not contradicted by) this phrase in the polygamy article: "More recent genetic data has clarified that, in most regions throughout history, a smaller proportion of men contributed to human genetic history compared to women."

Then again, while I've heard of modern tribes with weird marriage practices (for example the Wodaabe or the Trobriand people) I've never heard of tribes where 70% of men die virgins. Is there any tribe/society where something like that happens? (I realize that modern tribes are by definition different to Paleolithic tribes)90.77.114.87 (talk) 13:51, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

From what I've read in the past, it seems that hunter-gatherer cultures over the last 50,000 years ago probably tended to be mildly polygynous -- that is, certain men, due to their personalities and demonstrated skills, managed to attract more than one woman at a time into a relationship with them. (Usually a small number -- some men having large numbers of wives is associated more with agricultural civilizations, and women there could often have less freedom of choice than women in hunter-gatherer groups.) Everybody of both sexes is likely to be most attracted to high-status individuals, but under hunter-gatherer conditions, women also need help with child-rearing, which factors into their mating strategies. AnonMoos (talk) 14:19, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

P.S. Under the classic anthropological band-tribe-chiefdom-state classification system (on Misplaced Pages, covered in the vaguely named Sociopolitical typology article), most historical hunter-gatherer cultures were "bands", while the Wodaabe and Trobriand people sound more like "tribes". AnonMoos (talk) 14:26, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Worth remembering, though: who has "sanctioned" relationships is not necessarily equivalent to who actually has sex. - Jmabel | Talk 19:15, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

It has been said (in mammals at least) that each 5% difference in mass for males means that their harem (zoology) has one more female. The sexual dimorphism#Humans article says that human males are 15% heavier that the females (previously I had heard 20%), suggesting that the harem-holder has three mates (or 4, if the 20% is correct). But this does not mean that 75% of human males never had sex. Firstly, holding a harem is a dangerous, short term job if other animals are any guide, with the harem master regularly killed or overthrown. Secondly, in current polygynous human cultures and in polygynous animals, there is a huge amount of cheating. Evidence from animals shows that when females cheat, they are statistically more likely to produce offspring from that mating than from a mating with their main male. Abductive (reasoning) 11:09, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

It's doubtful that there were commonly "harems" at any stage of human evolution which is very relevant to modern human behavior. Gorillas have moderate harems of often around 3 or 4 females (as opposed to elephant seals, which commonly have a harem size in the thirties). Robust Australopithecines may have been similar, but modern humans are not descended from them. What we know about attested hunter-gatherer societies strongly suggests that during the last 50,000 years or so (since Behavioral modernity) the majority of men who had wives had one wife, but some exceptional men were able to attract 2 or 3 women at a time into relationships. Men having large numbers of wives (real harems) wasn't too feasible until the rise of social stratification which occurred with the development of agriculture. AnonMoos (talk) 16:50, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

How do we know that? Because the same evidence is that prior to 50,000 years ago, humans did have harems. Abductive (reasoning) 20:22, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Where can we find this evidence?  --Lambiam 08:31, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Scattering in US elections

What does scattering mean in the context of US elections? Examples: 1944 United_States presidential election in California#Results 1886 United States House of Representatives elections#Mississippi. Searching mostly produces Electron scattering, which is not the same thing at all! Is there (or should there be) an article or section that could be linked? Cavrdg (talk) 14:32, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

If you click on the source for Frederick G. Berry in the 1886 election, then on Scattering on the following page, it says it's for those with "No Party Affiliation". Clarityfiend (talk) 14:44, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Presumably from the phrase "a scattering of votes" (i.e. for other candidates than those listed)... AnonMoos (talk) 15:52, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

December 11

Shopping carts

Where were the first shopping carts introduced?

• shopping cart and Sylvan Goldman say the Humpty Dumpty chain
• Piggly Wiggly says the Piggly Wiggly chain and quotes the Harvard Business Review

Both articles agree it was in 1937 in Oklaholma. I believe that Humpty Dumpty is more likely, but some high quality sources would be useful. TSventon (talk) 11:55, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

It seems to be a matter of some dispute, but Guide to the Telescoping Shopping Cart Collection, 1946-1983, 2000 by the Smithsonian Institution has the complex details of the dispute between Sylvan Goldman and Orla Watson. No mention of Piggly Wiggly, but our article on Watson notes that in 1946, he donated the first models of his cart to 10 grocery stores in Kansas City.

The Illustrated History of American Military Commissaries (p. 205) has both Watson and Goldman introducing their carts in 1947 (this may refer to carts that telescope into each other for storage, a feature apparently lacking in Goldman's first model).

Scalable Innovation: A Guide for Inventors, Entrepreneurs, and IP Professionals says that Goldman's first cart was introduced to Humpty Dumty in 1937.

Make of that what you will. Alansplodge (talk) 13:30, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely. I remember that the power lift arrangement mentioned in the Smithsonian's link was still an object of analysis for would-be inventors in the mid-sixties, and possibly later, even though the soon to be ubiquituous checkout counter conveyor belt was very much ready making it unnecessary. Couldn't help curiously but think about those when learning about Bredt's rule at school later, see my user page, but it's true "Bredt" sounded rather like "Bread" in my imagination. --Askedonty (talk) 15:33, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

On Newspapers.com (pay site), I'm seeing shopping carts referenced in Portland, Oregon in 1935 or earlier, and occasionally illustrated, at a store called the Public Market; and as far as the term itself is concerned, it goes back to at least the 1850s. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:18, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

But perhaps referring to a cart brought by the shopper to carry goods home with, rather than one provided by the storekeeper for use in-store? Alansplodge (talk) 16:14, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

@Alansplodge, Askedonty, and Baseball Bugs: thank you for your help, it seems that the Harvard Business Review is mistaken and the Piggly Wiggly chain did not introduce the first shopping baskets, which answers my question. The shopping cart article references a paper by Catherine Grandclément, which shows that several companies were selling early shopping carts in 1937, so crediting Sylvan Goldman alone is not the whole story. TSventon (talk) 17:22, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Lilacs/flowers re: Allies in Europe WWII

At 53:20 in Dunkirk (1958 film), British soldiers talk about 'flowers on the way into Belgium, raspberries on the way out', and specifically reference lilacs. I imagine this was very clear to 1958 audiences, but what is the significance of lilacs? Is it/was it a symbol of Belgium? Valereee (talk) 21:40, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I think it's just that the BEF entered Belgium in the Spring, which is lilac time. DuncanHill (talk) 22:04, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

There are contemporary reports of the streets being strewn with lilac blossom. See here "Today the troops crossed the frontier along roads strewn with flowers. Belgian girls, wildly enthusiastic, plucked lilac from the wayside and scattered it along the road to be torn and twisted by the mighty wheels of the mechanised forces." DuncanHill (talk) 22:26, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

December 12

The USA adding a new state

If my understanding is correct, the following numbers are valid at present: (a) number of Senators = 100; (b) number of Representatives = 435; (c) number of electors in the Electoral College = 538. If the USA were to add a new state, what would happen to these numbers? Thank you. 32.209.69.24 (talk) 06:30, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

The number of senators would increase by 2, and the number of representatives would probably increase by at least 1. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 09:23, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Thus, to answer the final question, the minimum number of Electors would be 3… more if the new state has more Representatives (based on population). Blueboar (talk) 13:54, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

In the short term, there would be extra people in congress. The 86th United States Congress had 437 representatives, because Alaska and Hawaii were granted one upon entry regardless of the apportionment rules. Things were smoothed down to 435 at the next census, two congresses later. --Golbez (talk) 14:58, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

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