Talk:Killing of Brian Thompson: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 22:08, 14 December 2024 editJonathan f1 (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users1,754 editsm →Name pronunciation in Italian ← Previous edit		Revision as of 22:43, 14 December 2024 edit undoLocke Cole (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers18,893 edits →Draft: Luigi Mangione: ReplyTag: Reply Next edit →
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	::::Also tagging @]. Please read the guideline ]. I know you gave the example of ] being an article that was created the next day after the Charleston church shooting (the timing of that article was created against guideline). There is also Daniel Penny, who does not currently have a Misplaced Pages BLP, from ], as well as countless other LPs who have been convicted of crime. ] (]) 20:48, 13 December 2024 (UTC)		::::Also tagging @]. Please read the guideline ]. I know you gave the example of ] being an article that was created the next day after the Charleston church shooting (the timing of that article was created against guideline). There is also Daniel Penny, who does not currently have a Misplaced Pages BLP, from ], as well as countless other LPs who have been convicted of crime. ] (]) 20:48, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::::We also have ], which is an enforceable policy. ] (]) 20:58, 13 December 2024 (UTC)		:::::We also have ], which is an enforceable policy. ] (]) 20:58, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::BLPCRIME has nothing to do with the draft article. —] • ] • ] 22:43, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
	:"He lived in Honolulu until the killing" is not assuming innocence.		:"He lived in Honolulu until the killing" is not assuming innocence.
	:"While on his Twitter (X) account he had an X-ray picture of a spine. Which was posted during 2016" is not good grammar. ~{{Smallcaps\|]}}<sup>]{{nbsp}}•{{nbsp}}]</sup> 19:51, 13 December 2024 (UTC)		:"While on his Twitter (X) account he had an X-ray picture of a spine. Which was posted during 2016" is not good grammar. ~{{Smallcaps\|]}}<sup>]{{nbsp}}•{{nbsp}}]</sup> 19:51, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

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"Assassination"

Thread retitled from "Reliable sources aren't calling this an assassination".

It was already agreed at Brian Thompson (businessman) that reliable sources aren't referring to this as an assassination, so we shouldn't either. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 18:21, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

That's why this article isn't called an assassination. If you'd like to make a move request, please discuss on the existing move requests in Talk: Brian Thompson (businessman). guninvalid (talk) 18:23, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

@Guninvalid It was until about 10 minutes ago until I moved it and replaced all uses of assassination in the article (except for one direct quote). I am explaining why I made those changes and making it clear that they shouldn't be reverted. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 18:27, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

a number of reliable sources have referred to it as an assassination. Misplaced Pages editors seem to have the tendency to heavily cherry pick articles. 2601:447:CE00:8AB0:CE30:1D34:E3CC:6C37 (talk) 22:16, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, they are:

"...Dawn Assassination." New York Times + "CEO assassination..." ABC (local affiliate) + "CEO's assassination..." Newsweek + "...before shooting assassination." Irish Times via MSN + "Thompson’s family was devastated by the news of his apparent assassination." Boston Herald + "...the apparent assassination..." Newsweek (again, but a different article) + "...assassination-style slaying." NYT (again, different article) + "Rep. Dean Phillips, of Minnesota’s 3rd District, wrote that he was '...horrified by the assassination of my constituent, Brian Thompson...'" Representative Phillips via X via CNN
That being said… I don't believe WP:Assassination supports the title of "Assassination of Brian Thompson." WP supports "killing of…" until either/or a conviction is made (at which point WP:MURDEROF takes us to "Murder of Brian Thompson") or sources begin regularly referring to this as an assassination (looks like it may happen, but it is currently used too sporadically to justify it here, IMO).MWFwiki (talk) 05:52, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

A teratocide is a more accurate description. Fustbariclation (talk) 12:27, 10 December 2024 (UTC) Fustbariclation (talk) 12:27, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

TIL of WP:MURDEROF. I had come to suggest using that title, but then saw your comment. Hàlian (talk) 13:34, 11 December 2024 (UTC) Hàlian (talk) 13:34, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Cont. ("Assassination")

I believe this article would be best moved to Assassination of Brian Thompson, because this act targeted the CEO of a company, and not a random civilian.

I am not making a Move Request at this time, I'm merely asking why we are using "Killing" instead of "Assassination". Do we need to know the assassin's motive? What information is missing for this event to be called an assassination? It seems like "Killing" inappropriately paints the act as wonton and random, but the use of a silenced weapon, the plan to lie in wait at the specific spot Thompson would be, and the plan to escape feels more like an assassination plan. Please let me know what I am (or the sources are) missing. RobotGoggles (talk) 20:44, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

@RobotGoggles See the section #Reliable sources aren't calling this an assassination where I already discussed this. We go by reliable sources. Until/unless the majority of reliable sources the refer to it as an assassination, we should not. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 21:04, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

A number of reliable sources have referred to it as an assassination. Misplaced Pages editors seem to have the tendency to cherry pick articles. 2600:1014:B0C3:2D47:A9B6:ED5D:E948:53DE (talk) 22:14, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

A number of reliable sources have referred to it as an assassination. Misplaced Pages editors seem to have the tendency to cherry pick articles. 2601:447:CE00:8AB0:CE30:1D34:E3CC:6C37 (talk) 22:15, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

This is pure conjecture on your part. Please refrain from introducing your preconceived biases to the discussion. 136.52.31.24 (talk) 10:51, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure why so many are adamantly opposed to referring to this as an assassination, at least within the body of the article. Sources are indeed using the term:
"...Dawn Assassination." New York Times + "CEO assassination..." ABC (local affiliate) + "CEO's assassination..." Newsweek + "...before shooting assassination." Irish Times via MSN + "Thompson’s family was devastated by the news of his apparent assassination." Boston Herald + "...the apparent assassination..." Newsweek (again, but a different article) + "...assassination-style slaying." NYT (again, different article) + "Rep. Dean Phillips, of Minnesota’s 3rd District, wrote that he was '...horrified by the assassination of my constituent, Brian Thompson...'" Representative Phillips via X via CNN

That' being said… I don't believe WP:Assassination supports the title of "Assassination of Brian Thompson." WP supports "killing of…" until either/or a conviction is made (at which point WP:MURDEROF takes us to "Murder of Brian Thompson") or sources begin regularly referring to this as an assassination (looks like it may happen, but it is currently used too sporadically to justify it here, IMO).

MWFwiki (talk) 06:01, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

It's not the "common established name." The fact the victim was targetted not random is irrelevant since most homicides are targetted. Also, subjects are consiered innocent till proved guilty in Misplaced Pages articles. TFD (talk) 06:01, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

lol since then are victims innocent until proven guilty? I spent a weekend reading the talk pages of the duke lacrosse case and Misplaced Pages has repeatedly and utterly failed to hold themselves to that standard. 2601:18F:801:1D20:880C:5091:930C:94FD (talk) 20:03, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

"Assassination" come on, this isn't Tupac or Biggie Smalls.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:f90:4320::660 (talk) 00:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Sources for "The Adjuster"

The shooting occurred early in the morning, and the suspect, colloquially referred to as the Co-Pay Killer and described as a white man, fled the scene.

Anecdotally, I've seen him referred to as "The Adjuster" more than "the Co-Pay Killer", and google trends substantiates this, however I cannot find any non-social-media sources to substantiate this. Given the lack of searches for "Co-pay Killer" I am tempted to WP:BOLD remove it, as it is therefore not "colloquial", but would prefer to replace it with "The Adjuster" if anybody can find some reliable media calling him this. Thanks, Scaledish! Talkish? Statish. 20:39, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I already removed both titles - the sources seemed bad. I have seen people use the adjuster, but I haven't seen that title get news coverage. HelenaBertrand (talk) 20:47, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

rolledback edits by @IRDM pending this discussion Scaledish! Talkish? Statish. 21:29, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

do any of these three sources count? 1 2 3 iRDM 19:43, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Additional sources substantiating "Adjuster" conjecture: Wired, nbc, and Yahoo!News. Trilomonk (talk) 01:14, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

thank you! added it back with these better sources iRDM 04:44, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Luigi Mangione article

Thread retitled from "Draft on Luigi".

I've made a draft on Luigi Draft:Luigi Mangione If you would like to contribute please do. PopularGames (talk) 22:48, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the work you put in so far, but he does not need an article. He is not notable beyond this incident I can almost guarantee it will be declined to be approved when moved to mainspace. People like Adam Lanza, Jesse Osborne, Anthony Dwayne McRae, etc all do not have their own articles; it simply stays in the main event article. It is possible that in the future he may become notable enough for his own article due to events surrounding the trial, etc, but for now he is just a person of interest and if he is arrested and charged in connection to the crime it'll still be best to have the info remain in this article. ~Darth Stabro 22:56, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Darth Stabro. --ZimZalaBim 23:28, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

People like Adam Lanza, Jesse Osborne, Anthony Dwayne McRae, etc., were not subjects of nation-wide manhunts. Mangione was. 32.209.69.24 (talk) 03:17, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Irrelevant. --ZimZalaBim 03:19, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, correct. Being the subject of a nation-wide manhunt ... for an infamous murder ... is, ummmmmm, irrelevant. Because ZimZalaBim on Misplaced Pages said so. LOL. So glad that I ignore that $2.75 Misplaced Pages donation appeal, when it pops up. 32.209.69.24 (talk) 03:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is based on consensus. If you don't like the consensus, you're welcome to make an account and join the discussion more fully. ~Darth Stabro 04:20, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Right now, I'm at a weak keep for the Luigi article. A burst of news coverage isn't enough, but if the news and other secondary sources keep covering the ongoing legal proceedings and other things about Luigi, that would clearly warrant a standalone article. HorseDonkey (talk) 11:45, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

To add, the donation appeal is for the Wikimedia Foundation. This article is under the English Misplaced Pages. Two related, but different groups. --Super Goku V (talk) 01:17, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I think that it's probably imprudent to rule out the possibility of him getting an article just yet. His trial is likely to yield more press coverage, which could add to the importance of his actions. His early life, political beliefs, alleged crime, manhunt, and upcoming trial seems enough to constitute an article. Trilomonk (talk) 20:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

but did we not give Ryan routh an article even though barely anyone remembers him, as mangione was successful in his assassination, doesn't that make him noteworthy enough for a separate article? 149.22.219.132 (talk) 21:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ryan Wesley Routh. This was a discussion to delete the article you mentioned. The discussion was closed as No Consensus. The main point of discussion appears to have been WP:BLP1E and the condition that appears to have mattered the most was the third condition: The event is not significant or the individual's role was either not substantial or not well documented. John Hinckley Jr., for example, has a separate article because the single event he was associated with, the Reagan assassination attempt, was significant, and his role was both substantial and well documented. It is not clear if the same condition is met or not for this individual. --Super Goku V (talk) 01:22, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

He should have an article. He's quickly becoming a known name in the public eye. However, I think we should wait a bit more until the trial begins and more information comes out. At that point, there will be too much information that we will need to have a separate article to avoid excessive clutter on this page. Kokaynegeesus (talk) 01:12, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Category:Assassins by nationality Dreameditsbrooklyn (talk) 01:02, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Why is there not yet a biography page, and a link to his manifesto? Fustbariclation (talk) 12:29, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@Fustbariclation: I moved your comment from the top of the page to here as I think you are addressing the same thing as the users above. WP:BLP1E or WP:BIO1E may be of interest. I am not sure if the manifesto is released to the public Justi yaya 14:09, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm a bit surprised that Luigi Mangione doesn't have his own article. Thomas Matthew Crooks has his own article and is only notable for one event (the Trump assassination attempt). Mangione is getting way more coverage in the media and reliable sources than Crooks ever will. Some1 (talk) 01:27, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Cont. (Luigi Mangione article)

Thread retitled from " Is it time to create an article for Luigi Mangione?".

Is it time to create an article for Luigi Mangione?

A page for Dylann Roof was created on June 18, 2015, the day after the Charleston Church Shooting and his arrest.

As of today, Misplaced Pages is not allowing the creation of a Luigi Mangione page, but is instead diverting to the Killing of Brian Thompson page. ProfessorKaiFlai (talk) 17:00, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Can you be more specific with what "Misplaced Pages is not allowing" means. Is that based on a policy or on a consensus that was made? Kingturtle = (talk) 17:08, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

The redirect Luigi Mangione is protected, that's probably what they mean by "not allowed" 331dot (talk) 17:19, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Correct ProfessorKaiFlai (talk) 19:34, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Are you aware of Draft:Luigi Mangione? 331dot (talk) 17:19, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:OTHERCONTENT is not a convincing argument, and there is a tendency to leap in and create articles that have problems with WP:BLP1E. Personally I wouldn't support a separate article at the moment.--♦IanMacM♦ 17:22, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for not being clear- I'm not arguing for a separate article, just pointing out the existence of the draft as a counter to the idea it is "not being allowed". 331dot (talk) 17:32, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

As I have replied here, the Dylann Roof article should not have been created at that time per WP:PERPETRATOR. It is possible that a Luigi Mangione page could be created in the future but per the policy, this would be when the coverage is not contemporaneous and when there is an actual conviction. Wafflefrites (talk) 02:34, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for all your answers. I don't have an opinion in the matter. I was more interested in the process. "Misplaced Pages is not allowing" makes it sound like something or someone above us made the decision, when in actuality, it was wikipedians who made the decision. Kingturtle = (talk) 17:29, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes - there is a group of wikipedia editors making the decision. I suppose that editors can contribute to/improve the Draft:Luigi Mangione article until it is deemed acceptable to publish.

This article is needed - just as we have articles on Sirhan Sirhan and Lee Harvey Oswald, in order to tell the full story ProfessorKaiFlai (talk) 19:38, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

There simply isn't enough information on Mangione yet to justify a separate article. Everything substantial in that draft is contained in this main article.

Adam Lanza, perpetrator of the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, doesn't even have his own article. Patrick Crusius of the 2019 El Paso Walmart shooting doesn't have his own article. Especially given the delicacy of people perhaps *wanting* infamy, giving in to this and granting their own article in cases like this should be very delicately considered. He shouldn't be lionized, nor should there be any appearance of or opportunity for that. ~Darth Stabro 00:03, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

It's inherently difficult to compare Luigi Mangione to other "shooters" but I think your examples are apples to oranges here. Those examples are mass shooters that did not induce a national manhunt. The indiscriminate nature of their actions (and less complex motivations) places them into a different part of the American political zeitgeist.

They are most often brought up in regards to gun violence and public safety, a field where they unfortunately have several more notable peers that *do* have articles.

What Luigi did was more comparable to a targeted assassination of a powerful figure and is thus more similar to Lee Harvey Oswald, etc. Trilomonk (talk) 00:44, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Would Brian Thompson be considered a “renowned national or international figure”? I had never heard of him nor is he a common household name. Even now I still have to google the name of the late ceo. Wafflefrites (talk) 00:59, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

You bring up a good point. I was more making an assertion that whether or not Luigi receives an article should be considered under the standard of "assassin" rather than "mass shooter" (those labels are reductive, I know, but you get my point) / Trilomonk (talk) 01:09, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I think right now we are trying to follow WP:PERPETRATOR. If an article is to be created due to the current article becoming too long, it would have to meet one of two criteria: if Thompson was renowned nationally/internationally or if “The motivation for the crime or the execution of the crime is unusual—or has otherwise been considered noteworthy—such that it is a well-documented historic event. Generally, historic significance is indicated by sustained coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources which persists beyond contemporaneous news coverage and devotes significant attention to the individual's role.” Wafflefrites (talk) 01:17, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

No. Brian Thompson is not a "renowned national or international figure. "

Thompson is notable only (if at all) for a single event (that is neither significant nor unusual) - this wouldn't even be an article under the policy's exclusion criteria (and is likely to be deleted in the not-so-distant future).

WP:BLP1E Pimprncess (talk) 07:21, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

It is a delusion to think that Mangione does not / will not merit an article. Talk about being a day late and a dollar short. Sheeeeesh. 32.209.69.24 (talk) 09:13, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Name of suspect

Snow closing as include. Based on the wide publication of the suspect's name in reliable sources in today's papers, this sample of wikipedians believes the name of the suspect should be included. Further discussion seems unlikely to change the outcome consensus. BusterD (talk) 13:23, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the name of the suspect of this killing be included in this article? wizzito | say hello! 07:02, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, definitely. The murder has gone extremely viral, especially on TikTok. His name is extremely known so any concerns of protecting his identity aren't really valid. 2600:8806:90A0:3B00:DC52:C339:1D55:3B4D (talk) 07:16, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Also,why include a page about Brian Thompson that describes many of the faults during his time as CEO and not have a page about the murderer that could expand on many of his motivations and activity online. It might be more important to have a page of the murderer instead of the victim. 2600:8806:90A0:3B00:DC52:C339:1D55:3B4D (talk) 07:27, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Include. WP:CRIME says cover perpetrators when the motivation/manner for the crime is unusual. In this scenario this is definitely the case given the nature of the killing and the sheer amount of press and popular discourse it is receiving. FWIW I don't think the shooter should have an article at this point, but just for his name to be included in this article. Also his name is covered overwhelmingly in RS, see: BBC, NYT, ABC, no point in even linking articles as it's everywhere you look... LVMH11 (talk) 07:31, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Comment: I ask users to refrain from adding the name until consensus is formed here. I've already reverted it once myself. I have no interest in the outcome of this RfC. BusterD (talk) 07:43, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes per LVMH11's arguments. I think we've well blown past the standards set by WP:BLPNAME. That being said, we should hold off on creating an article about the shooter for a couple weeks for a fuller perspective on their notability. Based5290 :3 (talk) 08:30, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes because this individual has become a public figure. But we need to be extremely careful what information is added to the article about this individual. Even though this is a public figure, they still deserve a right to privacy. We do not want/cannot have trivial, speculative things added to this article. This article must not become a place of experts weighing in or a place of agendas being spotlighted. Also, no matter how guilty the individual seems, an arrest is not proof of wrongdoing. Kingturtle = (talk) 08:43, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Note that suspect's name is already in his grandfather's bio which links to this article. Jonathan f1 (talk) 08:56, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. I removed it from that article with a note explaining that we are awaiting a consensus here. Kingturtle = (talk) 09:06, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes. No reason not to.—Alalch E. 09:05, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Yes. No real problems now that he has been charged, and all of the world's media has reported it.--♦IanMacM♦ 09:11, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Is there some reason not to? Kire1975 (talk) 09:12, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Nope. —Alalch E. 09:15, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages often errs on the side of caution, especially for living individuals, to maintain responsible and accurate reporting. Reasons not to share the name of this arrested person in this article may stem from several ethical, legal, and editorial reasons. Kingturtle = (talk) 09:19, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Adult person charged with murder, name widely disseminated, notable event, much coverage in the aftermath: No concerns (regarding the name as such). —Alalch E. 09:59, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes. The suspect has been charged and widely reported on. Cortador (talk) 10:33, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I think we should name him in the article but be sure to include language like "allegedly" as to continue to presume his innocence until formerly convicted in a court of law. Middle Mac CJM (talk) 12:22, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, at this point he has been charged with murder, news sources around the world have reported his name, and with his name all over social media (i.e. satisfies the threshold of public figure) Misplaced Pages should also follow suit and name him. Do note that presumption of innocence applies given he's only charged and not yet convicted. DemocracyDeprivationDisorder (talk) 12:39, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Snow close. Of course it should be. There is no conceivable purpose being served by censoring ourselves from mentioning a name that was printed on the front pages on most US newspapers today. — JFHutson (talk) 12:51, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Comment: once we add the name, we open ourselves up to a tremendous amount of BLP violations from people calling him something other than "suspect" Scaledish! Talkish? Statish. 13:11, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reminder: Be very cautious of what you write and how you write it

People accused of crime

A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations, arrests and charges do not amount to a conviction. For individuals who are not public figures—that is, individuals not covered by § Public figures—editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed or is accused of having committed a crime, unless a conviction has been secured for that crime.

Kingturtle = (talk) 08:22, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages isn't a court of law. We base articles on what sources state, not court rulings. Cortador (talk) 14:32, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

We also are very careful about how we phrase things and what we choose to include until there is a verdict. Kingturtle = (talk) 14:38, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

"Misplaced Pages isn't a court of law. We base articles on what sources state, not court rulings" @Cortador Are you being sarcastic or is that a serious comment? And if you're being serious, are you sure that's not nonsense? Also, you do realise how your two sentences are an absurd non-sequitur, don't you? What has "Misplaced Pages not being a court of law" got to do with not including court rulings in articles? In every western judiciary, court reports (i.e. the scheduling and outcomes of cases) are published in the public domain (and usually available online in perpetuity). So are you seriously claiming that if an article was to include a person's criminal conviction, an online court report from the actual court (published under a .gov domain) would not be a valid source, but a third party news website citing the court report would be valid? Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 20:35, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Court rulings are primary sources. If you want to include information in an article, it needs to be reported on by a secondary sources. If there's no secondary sources, the ruling isn't worth including. That is basic Misplaced Pages sourcing. Cortador (talk) 21:39, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

The polar opposite of academic & scientific writing then? Why doesn't that surprise me? Basic indeed. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 21:42, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

It is different in that we are not allowed to use original research. While we can include primary sources, we must cite them with extreme caution, lest we imply conclusions not supported by them. Bowler the Carmine | talk 21:58, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I guess I'll just stick to fixing punctuation and polishing up dodgy prose. Please tell me there's not a WP:PUNCTUATION? I'm not reading it even if there is. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 22:03, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

An academic article on this (future) legal case would be a secondary source, not a primary one. I doubt anyone will conduct scientific experiments on the court documents, but hey, you never know. Cortador (talk) 22:05, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Erm, no @Cortador. You've dropped your banana skin and stepped on it yourself. My point, which I made clearly, is that academic and scientific writing disparages anything other than peer-reviewed primary literature as reference material. If you ever get go to university you'll discover that students are strongly discouraged from using textbooks as source material, and are trained to focus on reading original, primary, peer-reviewed literature. I should perhaps clarify for you that in this sense, 'literature' just means written material, not Jane Austen novels. Scientific papers are literature. Post-graduates and academics will rarely if ever cite a secondary source. And of course nobody, not even first year students, will ever cite a Misplaced Pages article. Nice try at insulting me - but it back-fired I am sorry to tell you. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 22:18, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

We aren't at university here, we are on Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages doesn't consider peer-reviewed academic articles on court cases primary sources, it considers them secondary sources. The court documents themselves would be the primary sources in that case.

I recommend that you read WP:PRIMARY and familiarise yourself with what Misplaced Pages considers primary, secondary, and tertiary sources. Cortador (talk) 22:37, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

That is why I said it was a difference between academia/science and Misplaced Pages. This is your second message where you're flogging a dead horse. You were trying to be smart with your ridiculous remark "I doubt anyone will conduct scientific experiments on the court documents, but hey, you never know". A very poor deliberate misconstrual of my statement. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 23:05, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

You admitted above that you weren't aware of this difference until a few hours ago, despite working on this article. I hope you understand that it is important to know how Misplaced Pages treats sources.

I recommend that you read WP:RS, which discusses sources more broadly and isn't just about the difference between primary/secondary/tertiary sources. Cortador (talk) 23:14, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Stop trying to insult my intelligence. I was perfectly aware of the difference. I pointed the difference out - perhaps the rhetorical slant was too subtle. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 23:18, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Take a break please. Bowler the Carmine | talk 23:22, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

You just insist on having the last word don't you? Don't patronise me. I'm insulting nobody, but there is one editor trying to be clever and mock me but failing at every turn. And another telling me I'm wrong when in fact he missed a double negative. How about you take a break? Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 23:27, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I am asking you to take a break because civility is essential on Misplaced Pages. Being rude is counterproductive, and it is expected that editors assume good faith of others. It is common for editors to get emotionally invested in a dispute, and when people get too emotionally invested, they often become uncivil and disruptive. The best way to prevent that from happening is to take a break to clear your head, and that is what I'm asking you to do now. I'll step away for a bit too, and we can come back with a clear head and a focus on working together. Bowler the Carmine | talk 23:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm angry but I really don't accept I'm being uncivil. I'm telling one editor to stop attempting to mock me by deliberate miscontrual of my comments, and I'm asking another to notice that the mistake in comprehension of a question/answer was his, not mine. Quote my "rudeness" back to me please? Where is it? Stridency isn't rudeness. Defending myself isn't rudeness. This is bear-baiting and you insist on telling me to step away and calm down. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 23:45, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

During this discussion, you announced several times how you aren't going to bother to read any of the help/guideline pages that other editors linke to. If you want to contribute to Misplaced Pages, it is important that you read and understand these guidelines. You aren't helping your case here. Cortador (talk) 11:47, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm never going to go and read those WP:NOTES - so could you tell me @Kingturtle, is it really the case that an article cannot state "John Doe was charged with homicide in Any Court in Any City on DD/MM/YYYY"? Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 20:16, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Consider reading the "WP:NOTES". They answer your question. Bowler the Carmine | talk 20:56, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I was clear that I am never going to read them Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 21:21, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

No, that is not the case. Maybe you should read those notes :) Kingturtle = (talk) 21:02, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh, so it is allowed to state in articles that person X was charged with offence Y. I guess in your OP you did say editors should consider not doing this - which means it is acceptable with due consideration. Sometimes I wonder if my time spent on WP is actually just a weird hallucination or dream that's only happening in an upside down part of my unconscious mind. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 21:47, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Take a breath and re-read what it says. :) Kingturtle = (talk) 22:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

And you do the same. I asked "is it really the case that an article cannot state..." and you replied "no". Meaning therefore that 'an article can state...'. Yes? :) Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 23:07, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

The linked pages have everything you need to know. It is expected that all contributors to Misplaced Pages familiarize themselves with relevant policies and guidelines, which in this case Kingturtle linked above. Bowler the Carmine | talk 23:12, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Why are you weighing in here? I'm asking an other editor who accused me of being in error to admit his own mistake. As to your comment on my talk page - I'm the person here who is being told I'm wrong when I'm right, who's facing ludicrous deliberate misconstruals by editor 2, and being "warned" by you for being abusive when there are three of you piling in on me. My comments here may be about the guidelines but don't contravene the guidelines, and I'm not making any edits to which those guidelines are relevant. I'm discussing the guidelines and I'm expressing my disapproval of their ridiculous quality standards. And for that reason I have no interest in them and no interest in making any edits that involve them. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 23:25, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Am I right - is this in fact your mistake? Are you going to comment or just stay silent? My question wasn't a trick to catch you out on a double-negative Q&A, which (and correct me if I am wrong) you missed? Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 23:48, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Still no admission from @Kingturtle of their mistake, and their mistake in telling me it was I who was wrong. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 01:44, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Maybe just walk away for a bit? --ZimZalaBim 02:05, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

That's such sound advice and it is so interesting that you said that - it's exactly what @Bowler the Carmine has been repeating over and over. I've never communicated with you before now @ZimZalaBim, but strangely in the last few hours I know I've seen your name crop up several times. I keep getting told to stop being rude and combative and uncivil, but I can't help wonder why @Kingturtle does not simply respond to tell me again that it was I who made the mistake - which would very much close the matter off. Anyway, I need to get some sleep. We're in different time zones. I'm not in California. I'm not walking away - I'm going to bed. But feel free to continue to tell me to walk away or take a breath or re-read what it says or threaten me with sanctions. I'll pick this up in the morning, when I guess Californian folks will all be in bed. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 02:48, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Whether we've communicated before or not is irrelevant. Misplaced Pages is a collaborative project and we're all here together. Maybe you won't get the response you seem to desire, but then again, Misplaced Pages isn't about winning arguments either. Hope you rest well. --ZimZalaBim 02:56, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I think the fact that we have not communicated before is relevant. It's relevant because you just parachuted into a discussion and chose to tell me and only me to back off. Just like a colleague before you did. It makes me wonder about the process that led to you parachuting in with your point of view. You mention "winning arguments" - the issue I am sure that refers to could be construed as an "argument", but I'd rather construe it as me asking another editor, who accused me of being in error, to just admit they got it wrong and the error was theirs. I don't characterise it as an "argument" - anybody with an average level of reading competence should be able to see that what I said was objectively correct on a basic semantic basis. I assume that the person who is in error, you, and the other person who came along to tell me to "walk away" are admins - or at least aspiring admins. And instead of any of you telling me, the lowly newbie, "you know what, you're right, it wasn't your error" - the OP is silent and the other two of you tell me (in what I perceive to be condescending tones) to "walk away and leave it". It's a thoroughly minor detail and of no consequence to anything: but I hate being told I'm wrong when, objectively, I am not. When I am wrong I happily admit my mistake. Was there pride at stake, and did the OP pull in external resources to ensure I got censured and their pride didn't get dented? Maybe if I got needled enough from enough different directions I might have descended into abusive language and could have been blocked or sanctioned?

The point of disagreement was as simple as me asking:

"is it the case that X is not allowed?", the answer being,

"No, that is not the case". I reply,

"So X is allowed?", the response being

"Read it again".

It's trivial, and it's beneath us all. But instead of an admission of error ("oops, my bad"), the person in error calls in the cavalry to needle me and persistently tell me to drop it, turning it into a grand spectacle but a rather poor show. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 21:34, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Luigi Mangione's booking photo

ABC put up Mangione's mugshot a few hours ago. Is it too early to upload it or not?

Aaron Katersky. "UnitedHealthcare CEO killing: Luigi Mangione faces murder charge as new details emerge". ABC News.

Right Wing?

Judging by his manifesto and even his twitter content I wouldnt necessarily say he was right wing - rather syncretic, supporting left AND right wing ideas. Iska-Germany (talk) 15:18, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Sources universally describe him as right-wing or anti-modern/capitalist reactionary. (Yes, they exist, and the Unabomber was widely considered to be one.)

The Independent:

Earlier this year, Mangione shared a poston his X account of another user praising Musk for his “commitment to long-term civilization success.” It referenced a post by Musk from March this year where he claimed he was “in a battle to the death with the anti-civilizational woke mind virus.”... Other posts Mangione shared lamented “wokeism” in society, and he also responded to one post that claimed God had been replaced by people “worshipping at the DEI shrine, using made-up pronouns like religious mantras and firing professors for saying men can’t get pregnant.”... In response, Mangione shared a link to an article from the Daily Telegraph newspaper in the UK which railed against an anti-hate crime law introduced in Scotland in 2021.

The Cut:

Mangione had not updated his Goodreads account recently, but toward the beginning of the year, he did add Infinite Jest, Atlas Shrugged, and American Prometheus (the biography that Oppenheimer was based on) to his “Want to Read” list... His favorites list is full of the kind of nonfiction favorites that right-leaning libertarian types love to peddle.

The Spectator:

The news that UnitedHealthcare’s CEO, Brian Thompson, had been killed sent an immediate shockwave across America, prompting quick assumptions about the assassin’s motive. Early chatter on platforms such as BlueSky speculated that the shooter, who is now suspected to be “tech whiz” and UPenn graduate Luigi Mangione, might be some kind of anti-capitalist folk hero. As details emerged, these hypotheses began to fall apart. Mangione, who was taken into custody Monday, was skeptical of “woke” culture, followed several right-libertarian figures online — and curated a GoodReads list heavy on Silicon Valley self-help, futurism, psychedelics and advice on treating chronic back pain... He gravitated toward “traditionalism,” a term gaining traction in certain media spaces as shorthand for a certain right-tinged longing: for older aesthetics, more formal courtship rituals, seemingly more authentic ways of life. Thinkpieces abound about this niche of right-coded thought, which seeks permanence and depth beyond what the digital present seems to offer.

The New Republic:

In April, he posted that “modern Japanese urban environment is an evolutionary mismatch for the human animal. The solution to falling birthdates isn’t immigration. It’s cultural.” He reshared another video from June of Republican megadonor Peter Thiel talking about people with Asperger’s running start-ups. He reposted a pseudo-motivational quote, “Netflix, door dash, and true crime podcasts have stolen more dreams than failure ever will.” And he reposted several messages railing against “wokeism.”

There's also a long tradition of anti-capitalist conservatism. The vast majority of both conservative and liberal sources describe him as right-wing and opposed to liberal modernity. Need it be reminded: the reactionary German political figure Otto von Bismarck introduced universal healthcare. None of this is new. The Unabomber, who he apparently admired, was also in many ways a reactionary or conservative political figure despite also supporting environmentalism and opposing modern capitalism. His political beliefs deserve mention in the article... seeing as this is widely regarded as a political killing and he's the charged suspect. RomanianObserver41 (talk) 15:42, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@RomanianObserver41 While this is all true, most of these sources use circumstancial evidence. Books that 'libertarians like to peddle' for example. Me personally I dont think things such as that are enough to class one as right wing.

On top of that more traditionalist viewpoints/anti-wokeism are also not limited to the right wing and is seen under both left and right (A good example would be the german BSW, which is socially right and economically left)

Statements regarding the Unabomber seem to see him as having good idea, but having failed to act in a good way, the unabomber being a great example of a person similar to left wing which both denied his position in the left and had many positions that werent leftist. In fact the Unabomber is also partially popular under the right aswell, despite being ideologically closer to the anarchist left. Despite his complaints he seemingly classified the Unabomber as good and rates the manifesto positively and in his review presents clear anti-capitalist sentiment.

Citing Otto von Bismarck is also not exactly a good example, as he introduced legislation as appeasement, not because he believed in it - he wanted to destroy workers movements. He believed that the left was a plague and was both socially and economically right.

I would also at the end like to note that being socially conservative but economically left wing makes you not necessarily right wing but again rather syncretic.

Classing Magione therefore as right wing is in my opinion misrepresenting many views he had. At least he should be referred to as socially right but economically left. Iska-Germany (talk) 16:01, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

None of the added wording directly stated he was right-wing. It said he had interest in libertarian, tech community "anti-woke centrists/center-right" people, traditionalist, reactionary, and conservative thinkers who opposed modern liberal modernity and often advocated violent resistance to it. None of that is disputed by anyone..

What economically left-wing views is he confirmed to have expressed? It's very possible, for instance, that he supported a totally free-market economic system and saw government-private insurance regulations & their lobbying (private-public) against "free market"'as the reason for America's poor standard of healthcare. (Not an uncommon position among the crowds that he followed.)

The phrasing I used states that he expressed concern over the decline of Christianity and secularism, birth rates, modern industrial society, wokeism, and various other personal bugbears. His interest in the Unabomber, topics surrounding Asperger's Syndrome, and hobbies also deserve mention.

I'm fine with moving it into another section but to not list his political views in an article about an apparent political kills strains all sense of credibility. RomanianObserver41 (talk) 16:13, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@RomanianObserver41 You werent the one who added the part claiming he has been reffered to as right wing - it seems to have already been removed.

I believe due to the current uncertainty of the actual political views of Magione we cannot or shouldnt write statements speculating or citing speculation, as his positions as published seem to be very broad. His quote 'these parasites had it coming' could very much for one refer to CEOs or businessmen.

Overall I just think the section is unnecessary. It has already been removed however, so its fine now. Iska-Germany (talk) 16:23, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

It was not removed. It states i the article that he is a "right wing reactionary" which there is no evidence of this whatsoever. 2603:6011:59F0:21E0:585F:7A1C:2E10:3666 (talk) 06:01, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Literally none of those are WP:Reliable Sources, nice try though 2603:6011:59F0:21E0:585F:7A1C:2E10:3666 (talk) 05:58, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

the Unabomber was not right-wing. 2603:6011:59F0:21E0:585F:7A1C:2E10:3666 (talk) 06:00, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Simply, it doesn't matter what you think, but any label used must be supported by a reliable source applying the same lable. --ZimZalaBim 15:55, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I reinstated it. It's pretty astonishing that many here apparently seem to believe that right-wing individuals can't hold gripes against insurance companies. Much of early conservatism in Europe was against capitalism.

The New York Times, Washington Post, and conservative websites like National Review have also noted his interest in traditionalist & right-wing libertarian, and reactionary philosophy. It makes sense. The Unabomber (who he repeatedly cited online and in real life) was also a right-wing figure who is often misinterpreted as a communist or left-anarchist revolutionary. Why should we not include the political beliefs of the suspect or his interest in the Unabomber? This is the type of article where political views of the suspects are especially important.

I have a feeling that many here (particularly on the left) wanted him to be a communist, socialist, or anarchist, so that is why these cited sources are getting resistance.

No good argument for excluding it. RomanianObserver41 (talk) 16:02, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@RomanianObserver41 Traditionalist ideals again are not exclusive to the right wing. There are parties today that are considered part of the leftist spectrum yet are socially right.

Its honestly quite an american view to inherently connect social and economic issues to define the sides.

Stalin could be considered right wing if we look at the things that were enough to class Magione as right wing, despite Stalin being a member of the communists in the USSR.

(Support for more traditional views are found with stalin, alongside authoritarianism)

Interestingly enough I do however admit that Stalin is often seen as non-left by various individuals, so the whole right/left spectrum is VERY subjective. Iska-Germany (talk) 16:15, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Except every political party on Misplaced Pages has a political position on its respective page. Right and left-wing relate to support for social hierarchy. We can continue this discussion below. I'm going to get an administrator involved (to start a request for comment for me) if this can't be sorted out. RomanianObserver41 (talk) 16:22, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

An interest in something does not mean you support it. Stop being dense. 2603:6011:59F0:21E0:585F:7A1C:2E10:3666 (talk) 06:02, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

@RomanianObserver41 "The Unabomber was also a right-wing figure who is often misinterpreted as a communist or left-anarchist revolutionary."

Evidence of this? Kaczynski openly endorsed Anarchism in ISAIF. Anyone who claims that Ted Kaczynski was right-wing either hasn't read ISAIF or is functionally illiterate, since the manifesto is written in a very direct and simple language. 109.53.228.195 (talk) 03:48, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

@ZimZalaBim The problem is those sources that Romanianobserver just showed is that none of those call him right wing, rather pointing out that he followed individuals that were socially right wing. At the same time sources such as his own writings (for example the Unabomber review or the snippets of the Manifesto we have) suggest a strong opposition to business, which again is economically left.

Yahoo is one source that refers to him as 'seemingly leaning right' - calling him right wing outright would be unfitting. Ted Cruz also referred to him as leftist, which almost certainly referred to his economic ideas. Iska-Germany (talk) 16:11, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

The new paragraph would state:

Social profiles of Mangione have suggested interest in right-wing thought forms of violent resistance, including the Unabomber, against liberal modernity. He also expressed or reposted concerns about secularization and the decline of Christianity in the Western World, fertility rates, DEI programs, and "wokeism" in society. Other displayed interests included Asperger's Syndrome and Pokémon. In a review of Industrial Society and its Future, a critique of industrial civilization, he described the Unabomber as "rightfully imprisoned" while also saying, "'Violence never solved anything' is a statement uttered by cowards and predators". In April, he wrote: "Horror vacui (nature abhors a vacuum)" in relation to secularism and secularization, and posted in May 2024 an essay written in high school titled How Christianity Prospered by Appealing to the Lower Classes of Ancient Rome thatsuggested the religion's superiority over paganism.

All of this warrants mention. It's well-sourced, widely covered in dozens of news articles, and confirmed politicsl opinions of the suspect. I cannot imagine why someone would not want to include the vast majority of this into the article. RomanianObserver41 (talk) 16:19, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

This is all speculative WP:SYNTH. He could have "interst" in all kinds of things...that doesn't necessarily mean those interests are connected to the shooting. We aren't here to create a profile of him as a person, but to summarize sourced facts appropraite for an encyclopedia. --ZimZalaBim 16:25, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

It's not WP: SYNTH (after reading it) to report other newspapers and online websites have paid significant attention to all of these things. The suspect's political views are clearly important surrounding what is likely to be a political killing. RomanianObserver41 (talk) 16:28, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

The fact that he "reposted concerns about secularization and the decline of Christianity in the Western World, fertility rates, DEI programs, and "wokeism" in society" is mentioned in hundreds of articles. That link has no apparent relation to the suggested phrasing. RomanianObserver41 (talk) 16:31, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@RomanianObserver41 Looking at the section especially referring to his review of Unabomber seems to ignore how he expressed very (economically) left opinions in his review, rather focusing on his statements supporting violence and almost seems written as if he opposed the Umabomber outright, when in his review he seemingly criticized that the Unabomber wasnt accurate enough in his attacks.

As said both the articles and the writing seem very speculative and probably shouldnt be in the article until there is a clearer picture. He could very much follow people described as right wing, while not supporting all their positions. On the other hand there are also leftists who have been described as right wing, which further adds to the problem of speculating on peoples opinions based on a handful of tweets and seemingly wildly varying opinions. Iska-Germany (talk) 16:29, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Then we can just not list him as right-wing and note the political positions he has taken on social med. We're not speculating about his views if we're reporting what he has said. It's confirmed information. RomanianObserver41 (talk) 16:33, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@RomanianObserver41 Correct. What I referred to as speculation was the label right-wing

The rest is mostly fine (although to me the unabomber section still seems weirdly written - as if he opposed his writings outright, which he didnt in the review) Iska-Germany (talk) 16:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I added it back in. RomanianObserver41 (talk) 16:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I raised this issue in a talk section up top but got zero feedback.

Please see Jeffrey Sonnenfeld's and Steven Tian's piece in Yale Insights, which should be cited in main article. They talk about a "unholy alliance" between populists on the far-left and far-right, where both extremes are borrowing each other's ideas. This is consistent with recent political science research indicating that anti-elite sentiment trumps traditionally partisan ideologies these days (see)

And while I'm not personally a reliable source and so won't link my own essays, I have been researching American populism for over a year now and can vouch for the 2 sources linked above. The extremes on the right (in the MAGA movement) and the extremes on the left (say, the Bernie Sanders crowd) have more common ground with each other than the moderates in their own parties. It's here where you find a mix of both anti-woke and anti-corporate views, perhaps typified by commentators like Bill Maher and Joe Rogan, who are quite hard to pin down ideologically.

With this in mind, it's entirely misleading to link suspect's "right wing" views to this particular murder. Suspect was not hearing rhetoric against the health insurance industry from the right-wing media -this is entirely the domain of the left. Jonathan f1 (talk) 16:56, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Interest does not equal adherence. You are just shamelessly trying to paint him as a right wing nutjob. 2603:6011:59F0:21E0:585F:7A1C:2E10:3666 (talk) 06:04, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

i agree, i'd consider his politics syncretic. he followed right-wing and far-right figures and was anti-secularization and anti-"DEI", yet was critical of trump and the republican party.

he followed AOC, and was critical of billionaires and corporations, and by extension, likely american capitalism as well, but this doesn't necessarily mean he was critical of capitalism itself. i'd consider his politics syncretic, center-libertarian or anarchist instead of left or right, although i would say more influenced by right-wing views than those of the left.

i think that the part of his beliefs in the main section, such as "suggesting interest in anti-liberal thought, as well as forms of violent resistance..." should be kept, although a section should be added clarifying his beliefs were more in common with those of libertarians and some anarchists than those of an average american online conservative, at least from my point of view.

lastly, i'd definitely add how the event that apparently radicalized him was his chronic back pain resulting from a severe spinal injury. this event radicalizing him and leading to this event apparently has been confirmed by multiple sources personally knowing him, including his family and former roommates/friends. Teluguwaifu (talk) 18:07, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I feel like I'm talking to a wall here -the fact that he had hybrid views is entirely consistent with recent trends in American politics. We live in an age of mass variety, and consumers like to mix their political views as much as their Starbucks orders or the genres they watch on Netflix. To say he held some right-wing views does not imply this particular murder was motivated by right-wing ideology.

The ideas that motivate political violence have origins, and only one side of American politics has spent the last 30 odd years attacking the health insurance industry, and it isn't the right. Jonathan f1 (talk) 18:32, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@Jonathan f1 Talking to a wall? He essentially agreed with you. The Populist mixing of ideologies is often referred to as syncretic. Iska-Germany (talk) 19:12, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Right, but this murder was specific, and had nothing to do with wokeness or DEI. The far-right activist Richard Spencer, for example, is notorious because of his views on race. The fact that he has some left-wing ideas about the economy and consumerism isn't why he's notable. I 100% agree with the syncretic blend of populism as I described above, but not sure what all of Mangione's political views have to do with this particular killing. Political violence against economic elites is inherently far-left. Jonathan f1 (talk) 19:28, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

While more remains to be seen, Mangione's views are classic far right and only unreliable, highly partisan right-wing sources such as the NY Post claim otherwise. And the far right frequently attacks the elites. Look at the campaigns against George Soros, AARP, Budweiser and Disney. TFD (talk) 21:40, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

If "more remains to be seen" then you wait before publishing opinion that is more than likely false. 2603:6011:59F0:21E0:585F:7A1C:2E10:3666 (talk) 06:06, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Also what are you on about? Budweiser is "elite"? In what universe? It is known is cheap, bottom-of-the-barrel beer. And of course that has literally nothing to do with this article whatsoever, nor do his supposed political views of which little is concretely known. Your leftist bias is showing. 2603:6011:59F0:21E0:585F:7A1C:2E10:3666 (talk) 06:08, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

People across the political spectrum commit ideologically motivated crimes. It's not bias to say that the far right is included among them.

While the vast majority of Bud drinkers are not part of the elite, they don't own the company. TFD (talk) 14:41, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Lead section

I've removed two sentences from the lead section about "Mangione's social media profiles." Only a small portion of sources deal with this material and it seems unclear to me that what was on his Goodreads profile is among the most important elements on this case. Certainly, some of this might be due weight for the body of the article, but inclusion in the lead is a separate discussion. The lead section should stick to the core elements on the topic. When it doubt, we should wait and see what sources develop. Neutrality 18:30, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@Neutrality I agree. I think his political opinions remain to be seen in the close future - they are too unclear atm Iska-Germany (talk) 19:13, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Okay, it remains to be seen if Mangione has ever written anything about UnitedHealtcare being too woke or needing to get rid of its DEI department, but as it stands right now, his manifesto was very far-left in rhetoric. I suppose some political commentators are trying to dig up everything this guy's ever said about politics and link it to this murder, but this was very specific. Jonathan f1 (talk) 19:37, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

The inclusion of this in the lead is so obviously for bad-faith reasons, an attempt to split what has been a unified public opinion. It can be included and expanded on wherever else, but this is at least out of place in the lead. Ironmatic1 (talk) 22:28, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Broadly, we need to be cautious about simply restating what news sources happened to find on his social media accounts. We are an encyclopedia and it is ok for us to have higher standards and wait and see if such content becomes specifically and directly relevant to his actions. WP:NOTEVERYTHING is a good approach here. --ZimZalaBim 23:50, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, agreed. Jonathan f1 (talk) 00:06, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Manifesto text

@Bowler the Carmine There are probably tens of thousands of block-quotes this length on wiki, which policy do you think prevents it? GordonGlottal (talk) 21:29, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

While we are permitted to quote brief excerpts of copyrighted material if there is no easy alternative, we cannot reproduce sources in their entirety. It's not the length of the quote that's the issue, it's how much of the source was reproduced. A few hundred words from a book-length work isn't as big of an issue, but including the manifesto in its entirety, even though it's shorter than some blockquotes here, is absolutely out of the question. Bowler the Carmine | talk 21:41, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Again: according to what policy????????? GordonGlottal (talk) 21:44, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:COPYRIGHT is the full policy, if you're interested in reading the entire thing. Bowler the Carmine | talk 21:50, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Where does WP:COPYRIGHT, or any other wiki policy, limit the percentage of a copyrighted text work that can be included? Nowhere. No such policy exists. There is no policy which prevents us from including a 250-word passage, obviously unique and not reproduceable from free material. There is no policy which limits the percentage of a text work that can be included. Until such time as you can convince your fellow editors to accept such a policy, pleaseself-revert. And stop trying to bully me with nonsense like this. GordonGlottal (talk) 21:54, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

That's a well-reasoned and thorough rebuttal @GordonGlottal, and it seems you are extremely well acquainted with WP:COPYRIGHT. I read it myself just now and I see for myself that you are correct, which I never doubted. One reason not to reproduce the "manifesto" is that it's what Mangione would want - and there is something to be said for denying him the publicity he seeks. I wonder if anybody has ever been sued for reproducing a manifesto - since the raison d'etre of a manifesto (based on its etymology) is that the author seeks its publication en masse in the public domain? In the unlikely event that someone did sue for copyright infringement over the dissemination of a manifesto they had written, their first line remedy would necessarily be to ask the disseminator to cease and desist. Therefore, in the unlikely event that Mangione does issue a cease and desist notice, that would be a perfect trigger for its removal from WP:WIKIPEDIA. A much better trigger than citing a policy that does not exclude its reproduction in the first place. I think if you'll commit to removing it in the event that Mangione issues you with a cease and desist notice, you ought to include it, particularly since doing so does not contravene WP:COPYRIGHT. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 23:52, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure if Misplaced Pages is too concerned about "platforming" the manifesto or not. The media already has done so, and we have articles over all sorts of subjects, including Osama's Letter to the American People. That being said, that full "manifesto" isn't placed in that article either Catboy69 (talk) 00:01, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not too sure about the WP:PLATFORMING question either. As you say, it's already very much "out there". As for Osama - grrr, don't mention him to me. I can't stand that guy. Absolute scoundrel. The issue seemed to be if WP:COPYRIGHT prevented the reproduction of the "manifesto", which it does not. Other editors are arguing that "lengthy" reproductions are prohibited - which is correct. But they're ignoring @GordonGlottal's accurate assertion that the manifesto is about 250 words in length. Therefore the issue seems to be whether or not 250 words, which for those not acquainted with word counts is a paragraph or two, meets the standard for "lengthy". My WP:OR thinks not. What do you think? Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 00:21, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

It isn't even a question of copyright or platforming. Misplaced Pages simply is not a place for full-text documents. Short excerpts can be fine. Short summaries can be fine. External links to full-text documents can be fine. Kingturtle = (talk) 00:34, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Ah, now I see. Quoting full-texts is forbidden as is quoting "lengthy" excerpts. Therefore although 250 words is not lengthy, if it's the full manifesto it is prohibited. Our options going forward are either to change the WP:POLICY, or alternatively would it work for you if the editor who wants to insert the manifesto left out a couple of words from the end? In other words, neither a lengthy nor a full-text reproduction? That seems like a good way for you and @GordonGlottal to move past this impasse you find yourselves in. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 01:09, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

It would probably be better to quote at Wikisource. See WP:Wikisource for details. --Super Goku V (talk) 03:09, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Do not include the full text of lengthy primary sources is one of the policies that prevents us from including a 250-word passage. It says "Misplaced Pages is not a mirror of public domain or other primary source material. In Misplaced Pages articles, quotes of any original texts being discussed should be relevant to the discussion (or illustrative of style) and should be kept to an appropriate length."

What is normally done in instances like this is an external link is found of the text, and we put a link to it in the External Links Section. Kingturtle = (talk) 22:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I have removed the manifesto text from the citations section. It should never appear there. That isn't what citations are for. The full text should not appear in the article. If anything, create an external link to the URL in the External Links section. However, based on Klippenstein's history, we need to verify that the text he has is indeed the legit text. Kingturtle = (talk) 00:48, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

This is not an assassination

The title of this article is Killing of Brian Thompson, not Assassination of Brian Thompson. For that to ever change, according to Misplaced Pages policy (WP:Assassination), this incident would have "to have a single commonly recognized common name in reliable sources." It goes on: "Even if a death appears to be an assassination, the article title should not use the term assassination unless that term is part of the established common name."

So, until then please use the word killer, not assassin. Please do not put the word assassin or assignation in text or descriptions or in categories or see alsos.

The word may come up when newsworthy people mention the word and that is okay to include, as long as this article itself is not suggesting it was an assassination. Kingturtle = (talk) 12:16, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I suppose you meant assassination and not assignation - I'm sure you won't mind being corrected. You say that for the term 'assassination' to ever be used, according to WP:Assassination "this incident etc...." Is it true to say that another way for this to "ever change", people could discuss changes or improvements to the WP:Assassination policy? Or are WP:Policies immutable? Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 23:35, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes. People can definitely discuss any policy and work toward changing it. Misplaced Pages is not set in stone and is driven by community consensus. Kingturtle = (talk) 23:51, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Was I right - did you mean to write assassination and not assignation? The encounter between the alleged suspect and Mr Thompson looked very little like a romantic assignation - quite the opposite in fact. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 00:44, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Request for edit

In the lead, the second paragraph currently reads: "Thompson's death received reactions of online contempt and mockery from many Americans towards him and UnitedHealth Group. More broadly, many Americans criticized the U.S. healthcare system. Many social media users characterized the killing as deserved or justified; these attitudes relate to anger over UnitedHealth's business practices and those of the United States health insurance industry at large – primarily their strategies to deny coverage to clients. In particular, Thompson's death was compared to the harm or death experienced by clients who were denied healthcare."

I wish to advocate for a change to this, with the reasons following on: "Following Thompson's death, there was a significant social media reaction that characterized the killing as deserved or justifiable; these attitudes related to anger over UnitedHealth's business practices and those of the United States health insurance industry in general - in particular their strategies to reject clients' claims on their healthcare insurance policies. Comparisons were made between the harm done to Thompson and the harm caused to citizens who were denied financial support to access healthcare."

The changes are not terribly significant or controversial. There will be editors who will argue about the inclusion of much of this paragraph in the first place - and in fact I would be one of those. But given it appears just now in the way quoted, I'm simply hoping to improve on what is there and certainly not to condone or justify it. I've dropped the first sentence and merged the sense of it into the second sentence. I felt the phrase " death received online reactions of contempt..." could have been misconstrued as people reacting in the "normal" way of expressing contempt/disgust that a civilian was murdered. I've left one instance of 'clients' as was, and changed the second instance to 'citizens'. While I'm sure most/all readers 'get it', the word 'client' sounds a bit 'corporate' and it's important to make clear that the outcry was about harm to real people/members of the public/sick folk. I think 'citizens' conveys that better than 'clients'. I've tinkered round the edges of "denied healthcare" - it's not a big deal, but for the sake of adding a few words it becomes clearer that it isn't so much that citizens were denied healthcare (because the resources are all there, ready and waiting to assist patients) but were denied the financial support (that they expected from their insurer) to pay for/access what I gather is an excellent healthcare system (at the point of treatment). In other words, I simply wanted to make it clear that the issue isn't' with the medical personnel or physical infrastructure - it is about affordability and patients being let-down by their insurance policies. I've changed a couple of other small things: instead of "many social media users" I suggest "significant" - both terms provide only loose definitions of the scale, but I think 'significant' is less problematic than 'many'. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 18:34, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

As long as it's characterized as the opinion of social media users, and not implied to represent a prevailing view in American society, then it seems fine to me. The 'claim denial' data they're using comes from a single source that looked at public plans that interact with UH, like Medicare Advantage. Private plans are kept confidential so the actual rate at which UH denies claims or prior authorization requests is unknown. It is even less known what "deaths" UH is responsible for -this is pure speculation. At least one source in this article describes this social media sentiment as coming from a "vocal fringe." Jonathan f1 (talk) 20:03, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely I agree with all you've said. I have qualms about the current version (which I had no input into at all). I'm going on the basis that what is already written has been reviewed by others and is still there. Whether it's accurate or whether it should be in the lead - I really don't know and I'm not going to dwell on that. I simply thought that what is there just now is a bit wordy, a bit clumsy in places, and there were language/style points that I thought could be better expressed. So I've tried to compress the paragraph, and I think little changes like "many social media users " to "a significant social media reaction", and "clients" to "citizens" are worthwhile. The use of "many" was a case of weasel-words - it's quantitative without any actual measure. "Significant" is qualitative and more justifiable since the media coverage of the social media response supports it being noteworthy at least in a current affairs context, i.e. significant in the context of the events. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 20:57, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

"contempt and mockery" the way it is written is very vague. There is a need for such a change. Kire1975 (talk) 21:19, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Brilliant, thank you @Kire1975. My suggestions have been live for almost seven hours now - I don't see any objections but I don't see any action either. Do any of the editors controlling the article have any qualms with my semi-protected edit request that they would like to raise? Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 00:53, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

We seem to be on the same page. I too have an issue with that content but there are so many RSes discussing the social media reaction that something needs to be said about it. But the wording is critical. To say 'many social media users' -what's that supposed to mean? People on social media discuss economics, science, history, sports, true crime, gardening -not everyone is immersed in politics, and not everyone immersed in politics is following this case. Some stay glued to developments in Israel and Gaza, others are following Trump news. It's rather the case that only some small fraction of social media users have strong opinions about this case, but tend to be quite vocal about it, and many have expressed extreme views. I think "significant social media reaction" is better than "many social media users," but even here it's somewhat ambiguous. Jonathan f1 (talk) 03:01, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Be WP:BOLD. Kire1975 (talk) 08:23, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

"media reaction of significance"

That might be an okay start, before we end up with "significant media reaction". 2001:2020:319:C51C:FD35:8B20:7C7C:FD7A (talk) 22:23, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Re: Biden, Trump, Kennedy

Can someone explain how these sentences relate to the killing of the suspect's alleged involvement with the killing? I think they should all be removed.

Mangione appeared to be frustrated with the medical field and showed a skeptical attitude towards both Joe Biden and Donald Trump, while showing apparent support for Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s run for president in 2024.

In July 2024, Mangione described reactions to Project 2025, a plan for Trump's second term developed by The Heritage Foundation, as "qanon but for redditors".

Kingturtle = (talk) 00:04, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I think this was added by @RomanianObserver41 Wafflefrites (talk) 00:31, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree that a lot of this social media content stuff and the examples you gave have little relevance to the article (which is about the event, the killing of the CEO, and not Mangione himself). If he has his own Luigi Mangione article, then all that can be moved there. But again, since this is the event article, the Suspect section should include items that are relevant to the killing. I attempted to trim the Suspect section (by removing Mangione showed a skeptical attitude towards both Joe Biden and Donald Trump, while showing apparent support for Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s run for president in 2024. In July 2024, Mangione described reactions to Project 2025, a plan for Trump's second term developed by The Heritage Foundation, as "qanon but for redditors. and His social media expressed concerns over pornography, DEI programs, fertility rates, "wokeism", secularization, and the decline of Christianity, and promoted traditionalist ideas. which have nothing to do with the killing) but was reverted. Pinging The Midnite Wolf, since they reverted. Some1 (talk) 01:00, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for pinging. My issue was mostly that the edit summary invoked a page that doesn't exist. If that was the only justification, it would be better to leave the content so that it can be easily moved if the page is created. It's normal for event pages to have mini-biographies of persons related to the event if said persons don't have their own pages.

The first sentence listed should stay imo since his politics are of interest, but I'm fine getting rid of the second one. – MW_(t•c) 01:14, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. The first sentence (regarding Biden/Trump/Kennedy Jr.) is more fitting for his own article (which I honestly think he should have), but has little relevance to this event article (unless the killing was partly inspired by one of the three politicians, which reliable sources don't show). Some1 (talk) 01:19, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

For the sentences on politics, do the sources contain the word “motive”? Are the police or sources directly saying he was motivated by politics? If not, the politics should go in a separate section and not the “Motive” section, or the section should be renamed. Wafflefrites (talk) 01:22, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. – MW_(t•c) 01:27, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Typed that reply before you added the parentheses. The second sentence should be removed if only because it requires a separate paragraph explaining the Heritage Foundation, Project 2025, QAnon, and "redditors" as a derogatory term, but everything else should stay imo. In a high profile case like this people are gonna be interested in the suspect's politics, and the information is fine to give background on Mangione as a person. If we're only including stuff directly related to the case then we should also remove the following:

Mangione graduated from the University of Pennsylvania in 2020 with a Bachelor of Science in Engineering (BSE) in computer engineering and a Master of Science in Engineering (MSE) in computer and information science. He is from a Maryland-based real estate family. – MW_(t•c) 01:26, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

His educational background is basic biographical information, while his views toward the three politicians who were running for president in 2024 and social media concerns aren't. But I won't be opposed if those two sentences you quoted get removed either. Some1 (talk) 01:37, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

This was discussed up top and my opinion is that there's too much info about Mangione himself that belongs in an article about Mangione, if one ever exists. His political views don't matter much except as they relate to the murder. His education isn't relevant either -he isn't notable beyond this murder. He should be discussed simply as someone with healthcare grievances and some brief mention about the contents of his manifesto is due. If more info comes to light as to his motivations that can always be added. Jonathan f1 (talk) 03:58, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

@Alalch E.: Why do you believe these following sentences that I've removed: Mangione showed a skeptical attitude towards both Joe Biden and Donald Trump, while showing apparent support for Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s run for president in 2024. In July 2024, Mangione described reactions to Project 2025, a plan for Trump's second term developed by The Heritage Foundation, as "qanon but for redditors. and His social media expressed concerns over pornography, DEI programs, fertility rates, "wokeism", secularization, and the decline of Christianity, and promoted traditionalist ideas. are relevant to this article about the killing? Some1 (talk) 04:38, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Because they are about Mangione, the suspect. In any event article we can put as much information about participants as we deem editorially justified. This helps readers understand his views and where he's coming from a little better. —Alalch E. 04:44, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

How does His social media expressed concerns over pornography, for example, help readers "understand his views and where he's coming from a little better"? Some1 (talk) 04:47, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

It is a part of how "He gravitated toward “traditionalism,”" (from the quote/source) and how he promoted traditionalist ideas (from the article). He had a particular view of the world, and the idea of doing something might have formed within this view. This is why the topic is being covered in the sources. —Alalch E. 05:03, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Eh, that sentence (His social media expressed concerns over pornography, DEI programs, fertility rates, "wokeism", secularization, and the decline of Christianity, and promoted traditionalist ideas.) looks like a laundry list of his personal views that aren't related to his possible motives for the killing. But whatever. It's in the Background section now, which I guess is the section where people can add information about Mangione's personal life and beliefs. Some1 (talk) 05:18, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

The background section isn't for all sorts of personal life and personal belief information. It needs to be limited to things related to the lead up, the carrying out, and the aftermath of the incident. Kingturtle = (talk) 05:40, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I really don't know what's up with this. The best editors I know on here understand that the average reader has a short attention span and so it's wise to get right to the point and stick to material relevant to the main subject, in this case the killing. As the weeks go by, A LOT more info is going to come out that will need to be added, so it's best to leave room now. You don't want to have a bunch of stuff about his religious views, his education, all his political views, DEI, secularization, RFK Jr. At some point it's going to turn into an article about Mangione. Jonathan f1 (talk) 07:08, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

To make a rules-based argument, this is verging on WP:Coatrack. Jonathan f1 (talk) 07:19, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Readers with a short attention span read the first sentence and take a look at the infobox and scroll halfway through the article, looking at images; they might read a few captions. More ambitious short-attention-span readers might read the entire first paragraph, scroll all the way and might read all of the captions. Some in-between readers might even read the entire lead section. And then we get to readers who read the actual article: Those are no longer readers with a short attentions span. So yes, while there are many readers with a short attention span, wp:Misplaced Pages is comprehensive for the readers with fully functioning attention. The rest have the bits designed specifically for them: the lead and the infobox. —Alalch E. 10:16, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Killing vs. murder

I am guessing the this article is the Killing of... and not the Murder of... because there hasn't been a verdict in a trial yet? Since we are not calling the article Murder of..., should we also remove categories with the word murder in it? Or is that okay? Kingturtle = (talk) 00:12, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I would be in favor of removing those categorizations / Trilomonk (talk) 00:47, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

With a professional understanding of the mens rea that qualifies a homicide as murder, it does look on the face of it to be a murder. But you are quite correct - one can only conclude a homicide to be a murder on the basis of a court verdict. At the moment it's only an alleged murder if CNN is to be believed. So for now we should use the term homicide, provided we are content that Mr Thompson's death due to gunshot wounds was not self-inflicted. What do other editors think? Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 00:49, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:DEATHS specifies waiting for a conviction for murder. I don't see anyone contesting it as a homicide, thus us referring to it as a "killing" (as opposed to a suicide or natural cause etc.) Alpacaaviator (talk) 01:01, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Quite so, that is exactly what I wrote. Thanks, it's great to have your learned support. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 01:03, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah. Removed Category:2024 murders in the United States. —Alalch E. 10:20, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Employee or customer

Sources, even reliable ones, say different things about who called the police from the Altoona McDonald's. Was it a customer or an employee? Bearian (talk) 00:58, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree that RS are confused about this. However, it seems credible that an employee called 911 after being alerted by a customer. Dreameditsbrooklyn (talk) 01:09, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Seems like both customers and an employee were involved, but the employee was the one who actually called. Jonathan f1 (talk) 03:04, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

GiveSendGo fundraiser

"A GiveSendGo fundraiser has remained live, and has raised over $30,000 as of December 11." yet the references cited are from December 10 and don't reflect the updated amount:

🐦DrWho42 👻 08:36, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Edit warring lede

@RomanianObserver41 I looked at the sources you used. The Sky News one didn’t say the word “minority” anywhere, the National Review one is an opinion piece in an RSP yellow partisan source, and the last one is a blog. Stop edit warring this. Snokalok (talk) 18:17, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

1.) The version you're advocating for implies that a majority of Americans approved of the murder. There's no evidence for this and multiple people have stated the exact opposite.

2.) Noah Smith is an expert and self-published works are permissible in this context per the rule you cited. The exact opposite of what you claim.

3.) "Vocal minority" isn't a majority.

Alright? RomanianObserver41 (talk) 18:24, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Banners and Posters

Apparently people are now doing banner drops and putting up 'Wanted' posters of CEOs outside the NYSE. I think this probably deserves at least a mention. Reflecktor (talk) 18:23, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Non-neutral, almost celebratory lead

I changed this:

Thompson's death elicited reactions of contempt and mockery online from many Americans towards him and UnitedHealth Group. More broadly, many Americans criticized the U.S. healthcare system. Many social media users characterized the killing as deserved or justified; these attitudes relate to anger over UnitedHealth's business practices and those of the United States health insurance industry at large – primarily their strategies to deny coverage to clients. In particular, Thompson's death was compared to the harm or death experienced by clients who were denied healthcare.

to:

Thompson's death has received widespread attention in the United States and led to polarized reactions from the general public and commentators. The killing was denounced as murder, vigilantism, and based upon fundamental misunderstandings of the American healthcare system. There were also numerous online expressions of contempt and mockery from some Americans towards Thompson and UnitedHealth Group..

Many sources have stated that Thompson is a scaregoat, that the events were murder, and have given sympathy to his family. There's no evidence that a majority of Americans supported the killing. Experts such as Noah Smith have also shown that healthcare insurance companies have one of the lowest profit margins of any industry.

Clearly fails principles of neutrality. RomanianObserver41 (talk) 18:29, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:SOURCESDIFFER may be good to follow here. Wafflefrites (talk) 18:31, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Then we should use the second paragraph rather than the first. Saying that there were polarized and differing reactions makes a lot more sense than just saying everyone supported it. RomanianObserver41 (talk) 18:35, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Time and again we see these little social media mobs claiming to represent majority opinion, and time and again it's shown to be false. There are a lot of topics trending on the internet right now -sometimes this case is listed among them, oftentimes it's not. Not everyone is paying attention to this, most people aren't. And considering it's Christmas season, I think it's rather the case that "many Americans" are shopping and spending time with family, as opposed to following news stories or spam posting memes about the health insurance industry.

The social media reaction is covered extensively in RSes and so we can't avoid it in this article. But the language we use should not imply that the wider public is indulging in schadenfreude, or trying to rationalize murder over healthcare grievances. This is what these social media users want everyone to believe, and like many other claims they're making, it's unverified. Jonathan f1 (talk) 18:57, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I've renamed the section heading from Public to Online and social media, so "public" reactions (ambiguous) aren't conflated with online reactions. Some1 (talk) 19:25, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I think “ Thompson's death has received widespread attention in the United States and led to polarized reactions from the general public and commentators. The killing was denounced as murder, vigilantism, and based upon fundamental misunderstandings of the American healthcare system. There were also numerous online expressions of contempt and mockery from some Americans towards Thompson and UnitedHealth Group.” follows the SOURCESDIFFER policy better, but I didn’t see info about polarized reactions or misunderstandings of healthcare in the body. This needs to be added in the body per mos:lead. Some1’s version seems to be summarizing the body better. Wafflefrites (talk) 19:30, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, but I can't take credit for writing the paragraph, I believe @Snokalok: did? I agree that the current paragraph in the lead ("Thompson's death elicited reactions of contempt and mockery online from many Americans towards him and UnitedHealth Group...") summarizes the Responses section better than the proposed one by RomanianObserver41, which I have to say, doesn't come across as neutral to me. Some1 (talk) 19:36, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

As i said above, which you clearly felt the need to start a second thread for, I looked at the sources you used. The Sky News one didn’t say the word “minority” anywhere, the National Review one is an opinion piece in an RSP yellow partisan source, and the last one is a blog. Snokalok (talk) 19:36, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

The current paragraph reflects the body much better. Yes, this is a widespread response, the sources overwhelmingly agree on that, and trying to rewrite the paragraph as otherwise comes across as blatant povpushing. Snokalok (talk) 19:40, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I have broken down the response section. The reactions seem to be polarized between online vs. Politicians, some academics etc. one academic even called it similar to domestic terror. Wafflefrites (talk) 20:00, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I think it’s worth noting that we also have academics on the online side in the body. Regardless, I don’t think we can say polarized and have it be quite fair, simply because tens of thousands of people, even if only on social media, are still 10000x more people than the single digit number of politicians saying otherwise. “Polarized” implies a connotation of two comparable sides, when this is very much a many vs few scenario Snokalok (talk) 21:34, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

The word “polarized” has been used in several sources so that is why I am agreeing with the use of the word. Wafflefrites (talk) 22:37, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

"Widespread" response? It's widespread among the people who are immersed in this story, to claim this response is 'widespread' among the American public is completely unverified, and almost certainly not true. The same online mob thought Mangione would never be apprehended because the public would protect him, when in reality it was ordinary citizens who identified him and called 911. They're now claiming no jury will convict him, and they'll be wrong again. It's entirely naive to assume every eruption on social media reflects widespread sentiment, unless there is actual evidence indicating as much. Jonathan f1 (talk) 20:22, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Noah Smith post

I restored the article by Noah Smith. The guidelines state that Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications

He's a tenured economist, has published major papers, and his works are routinely published in the press. I'd call that a notable voice. RomanianObserver41 (talk) 18:32, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

You left this part out: "Note that any exceptional claim would require exceptional sources" and: "Exercise caution when using such sources: if the information in question is suitable for inclusion, someone else will probably have published it in independent, reliable sources". But irregardless, edit warring isn't the way to make your point so please refrain from that. Reflecktor (talk) 18:36, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

In addition to it being an SPS, it's WP:UNDUE to have an entire subsection dedicated to Smith's opinion on the matter, so I've removed that section. Some1 (talk) 19:12, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

If you're referring to Smith's recent piece about providers being mostly responsible for driving up costs -his analysis seems reasonable, but it's controversial and widely disputed. In the debate over providers vs middlemen, the dominant view is that it's the middlemen, not providers or drug companies, profiting off inflated drug prices, which has consequences that are felt throughout the entire healthcare system (anything that drives up costs causes insurance companies to scrutinize claims more closely). But the way that Smith uses the term "middlemen" to refer to an insurance business is not typically how the term's used in the industry: it more often refers to Pharmacy benefit managers, who could operate as part of an insurance company like UH, or retail pharmacies like CVS. UnitedHealth Group does indeed own one of the largest PBMs, but it operates under Optum, which is a separate subsidiary from UnitedHealthcare. Thompson was the CEO of UnitedHealthcare, not Optum. Optum's CEO is Heather Cianfrocco.

This does in fact deflect attention away from UnitedHealthcare's insurance business, and if it happens to be covered in RSes I don't see why it shouldn't be mentioned (if discussed in relation to this killing). If you do a search for PBMs/middlemen and healthcare costs, you'll find extensive coverage in both academic literature and mainsteam press. Jonathan f1 (talk) 19:54, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Inaccurate chart

The background section has a chart presented as "Claim Denial Rates Based on Insurance Company" with data from ValuePenguin. ValuePenguin's data is "Based on available in-network claim data for plans sold on the marketplace." Insurance plans sold on the marketplace are a specific slice of less than 10% of all insurance plans in the US, however the chart seems to imply that it's showing the overall denial rate for all plans. I don't think this is a fair representation of the data available. I suggest modifying the title of the chart to "Claim Denial Rates Based on Insurance Company For Plans Sold on a Marketplace". Also, the chart says "as of December 5, 2024", but ValuePenguin's data is from 2022. OberynMartellFan (talk) 20:09, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I know, I raised this issue before but got zero feedback. As I mentioned 3 times now, private plans are confidential and so the only data we have comes from public plans that interact with UH, like Medicare Advantage. No one actually knows how often private health insurance companies deny claims, but you'd never know it from the endless repeating of that one chart. Jonathan f1 (talk) 22:16, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I have removed the chart. I am also nominating the chart for deletion. Kingturtle = (talk) 23:05, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I'd support that move. It's a worthless chart for its purpose, and very likely inflates the rate at which private claims are denied. Consider the fact that, according to reports, UnitedHealthcare's denial rate shot up to 22% in 2022 for people on Medicare Advantage. Now consider this:

"According to research, a significant portion of people on public health plans request unnecessary medical treatments, with estimates suggesting that between 20-40% of medical care on public plans could be considered overutilization or unnecessary,"

So, if overutilization is going on at these rates on public plans (much higher than private plans, as you'd expect), then a denial rate of 22% or even 32% sounds about right for a company doing their due diligence. The only reason this chart is being passed around is because it makes UH look bad, but few people sharing it know where the data came from, let alone why it's potentially misleading. Jonathan f1 (talk) 06:59, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

"Real estate family". Consider changing that (non-encyclopedic; not defined if ownership of 2 or 3 houses - maketh a 'real estate family')

"... hails from a real estate family based in Maryland".--Non-encyclopedic.--If the point is that his uncle or grandfather was the 100,000th richest (or whatever) in a specific U.S. State, then say so. 2001:2020:305:9450:3C87:760A:993D:114A (talk) 20:31, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

We say what RSes say, which is that he's from a prominent real estate family in Maryland. Jonathan f1 (talk) 22:18, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I have changed the reference to "prominent family in Maryland", as widely reported in the media. Moreover, Luigi Mangione's relatives are involved in more than simply real estate. What disturbs me far more is that editors wish to delete any and all links to his family on Misplaced Pages, specifically the dedicated WP article Nicholas Mangione. The deletion seems to be squeamish oversensitivity (one editor's editorial summary said: "Shouldn't link to one person"), bias, or both. Mason.Jones (talk) 00:29, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I've encountered a lot of sniveling online whenever news networks bring up his family. Like, how dare they. And you're correct that the family has business interests beyond real estate. Jonathan f1 (talk) 06:22, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

"Prominent family", is almost as bad.--I am thinking the relevant section should be ordered something like: "His prominence or whatever", followed by naming his notable family members (and 'cousin', 'aunt' whatever). After that, fine, make a case for the "prominence" (in Maryland or whatever) of his family; are they 'on the first row, during inauguration for each governor', or is the "prominence" that someone in his family is a member at a country club.--Maybe the "prominence" is that 80% (or whatever) of the family members with college degrees - have it from Ivy League schools.--Focus of family: mother, father, siblings, and hot air about remote relatives. 2001:2020:323:E1D7:B052:B04:2CA2:999A (talk) 19:53, 13 December 2024 (UTC) /2001:2020:305:9450:3C87:760A:993D:114A

" a prominent local family", links to one person!--Yikes! Just go ahead and mention that person, and remove the link. Thank you in advance. 2001:2020:323:E1D7:B052:B04:2CA2:999A (talk) 19:57, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Very interesting BBC News article about the family with lots of detail. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crl3jkjxp75o

Tracing the powerful family roots of suspected killer Luigi MangioneItalic text 2 hours ago

Jessica Parker and Cai Pigliucci ErrorCorrection1 (talk) 20:19, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Yet another condescending sound spelling

The very notoriety of Luigi Mangione has made it so we all know how to pronounce his name. Not only that, you doubled down by doing it for the first AND last when Luigi is a name familiar just thanks alone to Super Mario Bros.. Get rid of it. 2600:4809:7270:F800:6909:3452:2B59:121C (talk) 20:38, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Edit request: Mark Rosario

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please change

“

He checked into the HI New York City Hostel on the Upper West Side of Manhattan on November 24, 2024, with a falsified New Jersey identification card and paid in cash. He stayed all but one night of the 10 days he was in New York City at the hostel, checking out on December 3, 2024

”

He checked into the HI New York City Hostel on the Upper West Side of Manhattan on November 24, 2024, with a falsified New Jersey identification card and paid in cash. His fake New Jersey ID used the name "Mark Rosario". He stayed all but one night of the 10 days he was in New York City at the hostel, checking out on December 3, 2024

The change is highlighted in green.

using the references

"Who is Luigi Mangione, the suspect in UnitedHealthcare CEO's murder?". Al Jazeerea. 10 December 2024.
Olivia Evans (9 December 2024). "Luigi Mangione Arrested at McDonald's: How Police Found Person of Interest in UnitedHealthcare CEO Death". E! News. E! Online. 1410947 – via E! Networks.

{{cite news |url= https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2024/12/10/who-is-luigi-mangione-suspect-in-unitedhealthcare-ceos-murder |title= Who is Luigi Mangione, the suspect in UnitedHealthcare CEO’s murder? |date= 10 December 2024 |publisher= Al Jazeerea }}
{{cite news |url= https://www.eonline.com/ca/news/1410947/luigi-mangione-arrested-at-mcdonalds-how-police-found-person-of-interest-in-unitedhealthcare-ceo-death |title= Luigi Mangione Arrested at McDonald's: How Police Found Person of Interest in UnitedHealthcare CEO Death |author= Olivia Evans |date= 9 December 2024 |publisher= E! Online |work= E! News |via= E! Networks |id= 1410947 }}

The E!Online reference has a photo of the fake ID itself.

-- 65.92.246.77 (talk) 22:10, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

What does the reader get out of this addition? Einsof (talk) 22:22, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

It provides the alias used as id when he was arrested, and the id used at the hostel. So, the identity of the suspect as the suspect presented himself as. -- 65.92.246.77 (talk) 04:00, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Not much, seems like. Kire1975 (talk) 07:05, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Excellent way to phrase the issue. The answer is: "nothing", except an additional sentence to an already large article. Marcus Markup (talk) 07:52, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Suggested edit

The article is so big now I wouldn't dare trying to add anything to it, but this feels related to the online responses section. Regards, RodRabelo7 (talk) 00:35, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

See the last sentence of paragraph 3 under Online and social media Wafflefrites (talk) 01:53, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Thomas M. Dickey

Should we start a page for Mangione's defense attorney Thomas M. Dickey? 🐦DrWho42 👻 02:15, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

No Alpacaaviator (talk) 02:36, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

He doesn't appear to be notable apart from this case.War (talk) 04:55, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

No, for the reason stated above. Trilomonk (talk) 06:12, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

No, I agree with War. I don't think anybody has heard of him until now. Cyb3rstarz (talk) 09:29, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Agree with all the above. Who even knows if he'll be the attorney for the New York/federal charges. ~Darth Stabro 15:23, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Linguistics (phonetics) question

Under "Suspect", the text gives a pronunciation guide for the first name "Luigi". However, the pronunciation is a bit different in American English, as there's no long vowel (i:) in English; I deleted the long vowel symbol (:) there. As the pronunciation is very similar in both languages, with English speakers tending to make diphthongs out of "u" and "i", I think the pronunciation of "Luigi" could be deleted entirely. Any comments? It's the surname "Mangione" that is truly pertinent: it has a very different pronunciation among most Italian Americans compared to Italians. Its pronunciation guide should appear as it already does—the Americanized pronunciation the family uses today in the U.S. and the original Italian pronunciation the patriarch Nicholas Mangione used when he immigrated. Mason.Jones (talk) 16:20, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

There is no source to back up the entire pronunciation, so removing it per WP:OR. E_F 16:25, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

A valid source would help, yes. Mason.Jones (talk) 16:31, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Name pronunciation in Italian

I tried removing the Italian pronunciation of Mangione's name due to the fact that he's American, but my edit was reverted with the reason that the name is "in Italian". This doesn't make sense. The name is "in" whatever Mangione's first language is, not wherever it descends from. We don't have the Italian pronunciations for DeVito, de Blasio, or Luigi himself listed for the same reason. CC:@IvanScrooge98 – MW_(t•c) 16:29, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

I had added it for sake of completeness given that even his given name is in Italian. Now the whole (English+Italian) pronunciation was removed for lack of citations so I’m primarily going to work on providing them considering the media attention he’s getting. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 16:34, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

What does "in Italian" mean? Again, names are "in" whatever language the person who has them speaks regardless of what language they descend from. – MW_(t•c) 16:35, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Luigi is a name in the Italian language. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 16:37, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

At times yes but in this instance it's a name in the English language since the person who has it is (most likely) a native English speaker. I'm only be persistent about this because by your logic we should have IPA transcriptions for every English name that descends from another language, which is the vast majority of English names. – MW_(t•c) 16:49, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

This is not a name "descending" from some other language though, it hasn't been adapted. Instead it's been taken the way it is from another language. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 16:51, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

The spelling is the same as the Italian name, but the pronunciation would have been adapted to fit with the American English sound inventory. – MW_(t•c) 17:00, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

This is also why we should wait until we have a source for the pronunciation. Depending on the family, it could've been adapted as /ˈmændʒioʊn/, /mɔːnˈdʒoʊni/, /mændʒiˈoʊni/, or something else. – MW_(t•c) 17:08, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

As for the character Luigi, the Italian pronunciation was removed by a user who thought it was too cluttering. Which I absolutely disagree on but I didn’t want to engage in a debate about that. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 16:35, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: IPAs must be cited. I had to remove almost twenty IPAs from constellation FAs because the IPAs were completely unsourced. How does someone know how his name is pronounced if it's IPA has never been covered by reliable sources? E_F 16:37, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

A pronunciation can be given in other systems from IPA, and sometimes audio pronunciations suffice to determine their IPA transcription. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 16:41, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Including the continental pronunciation of a name, for an American who does not seem to have even visited Europe, is goofy. Marcus Markup (talk) 16:53, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

It is goofy considering the fact that virtually everyone's name in this country originates somewhere else, often Europe. It'd be like putting the Irish pronunciation for a subject named Declan or Sean. Luigi is hardly an exotic name in America -it's been widely known via video games for decades. Jonathan f1 (talk) 19:08, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. There is no need for an Italian pronunciation, and IMO, no need even for how to pronounce "Luigi". ~Darth Stabro 19:15, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Agree also. The latest edit I saw, citing only the surname Mangione's pronunciation in American English, is the least jarring format. There's no need for any involved (and pretentious) prononciation lesson in Italian, a language that few of Nicholas Mangione's grandchildren speak with native fluency. They are all American-born and speak American English. Mason.Jones (talk) 21:38, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

It does come off as pretentious, and as others have said, the American pronunciation is quite different than Italian, and it is not common for Americans of Italian descent to use the Italian version. I know a family named D'Ercole who pronounce it "der" and "coal". In Italy it'd be something like dee-air-coh-lee, which no one in the family uses, and the younger generation isn't even aware of it. Jonathan f1 (talk) 00:13, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

It makes sense to me to list the pronunciation (if we know how he chooses to pronounce it), because in the US some people with the name pronounce it as man-JOE-nee while others pronounce it as man-gee-OH-nee. Kingturtle = (talk) 21:52, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

It makes no sense at all to me to list any kind of pronunciation for this guy's name. It adds no value to anybody's comprehension or needs and given that no source is being provided for a name which is pronounced multiple ways by holders of the surname, it seems like original research to me. Marcus Markup (talk) 05:47, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

No source? I have sourced the pronunciation. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 10:49, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Who even is that news reader? Citing her for an encyclopedic definition of the pronunciation of his name is... words cannot express how bad that "source" is. She is a news reader who was presenting a news story. In that business, they put a script in front of the reader, and they read it to the best of their ability. They cannot be seriously considered in any way used as a "source" except for how that one reader thinks his name should be pronounced. Marcus Markup (talk) 12:48, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Draft: Luigi Mangione

I've already posted this once, but I'm going to post it again because I need help in making the article. Draft: Luigi Mangione PopularGames (talk) 19:31, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Skimmed the early life section and there are many grammar errors. Should be *part of a notable family in Maryland, owned many *businesses, also *bought another country club (and you missed a period after this line). Maybe give this another proofread. Jonathan f1 (talk) 19:44, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

and "Firaxis" spelling, "Civilization IV" shouldn't be in quotes, etc.

I will again state my opposition to the creation of such an article, as well. He is only notable for this. He has not gained independent notoriety. ~Darth Stabro 19:49, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

That's another thing I was going to mention =if he's even notable for his own article. I think we should wait until the smoke clears. If he fades away when people lose interest in this case, then it's the case that's notable, not him. Jonathan f1 (talk) 19:59, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Also tagging @ProfessorKaiFlai. Please read the guideline WP:PERPETRATOR. I know you gave the example of Dylan Roof being an article that was created the next day after the Charleston church shooting (the timing of that article was created against guideline). There is also Daniel Penny, who does not currently have a Misplaced Pages BLP, from Killing of Jordan Neely, as well as countless other LPs who have been convicted of crime. Wafflefrites (talk) 20:48, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

We also have WP:BLPCRIME, which is an enforceable policy. Wafflefrites (talk) 20:58, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

BLPCRIME has nothing to do with the draft article. —Locke Cole • t • c 22:43, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

"He lived in Honolulu until the killing" is not assuming innocence.

"While on his Twitter (X) account he had an X-ray picture of a spine. Which was posted during 2016" is not good grammar. ~Darth Stabro 19:51, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Brian Thompson was murdered; Luigi Mangione is the suspect. There's simply no need for editors to create a separate Mangione-the-folk-hero article, so long as a WP search for "Luigi Mangione" automatically redirects to this article. While the life and life problems of the suspect should be discussed, they seem quite appropriate as part of a section in this article. Mason.Jones (talk) 21:28, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Yup, exactly. ~Darth Stabro 21:57, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Wiki-Notable - yeah, the title (article) "Luigi Mangione", is notable.--Just write the article without going thru the ' formal Draft process', and then click "Publish"/Save. (Showing your cards early, can only hurt "your" article's case.)--There is a fair chance that wiki-lawyering will get the first version of the article, Deleted (no matter how well, one actually makes the article).--What makes him stand out, among murder suspects? The entire body of commentary done by notable anchormen/-women, journalists, other commentators and politicians? Yeah, that is likely a big part of his notability. But also research being done, which has a strong relationship to him (or his actions).--Timing: if you can, then publish "your" article when there is a new development in the case, or new and significant info about the suspect or info about the alleged preparations for the crime.--If some of this post is helpful to you, then fine. 2001:2020:319:C51C:F06E:7D2A:883A:D7F6 (talk) 22:02, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Also, if another wikipedia gets an article that looks like its going to get kept - that might also be an okay time to consider publishing. 2001:2020:319:C51C:F06E:7D2A:883A:D7F6 (talk) 22:12, 13 December 2024 (UTC) /2001:2020:319:C51C:F06E:7D2A:883A:D7F6

The timing is also actually covered in the guidelines and policy, if you want to read that again. In regards to enforceable policy it goes beyond wikilawyering. See WP:BLPCT. BLPs are contentious topics per arbitration enforcement committee. With contentious topics, you must “comply with all applicable policies and guidelines”. Wafflefrites (talk) 22:23, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

It's way too early to assess his notability as an individual. He's being covered in relation to this case right now, no more or less.

Want another example? Scott Peterson doesn't have his own Wiki page, he's only mentioned on the killing of Laci Peterson article, because that's why he's known (he was previously a fertilizer salesman). And that case was arguably more of a national sensation than this one, and even distracted attention from the war in Iraq. Same thing happened there -wall to wall coverage of Scott Peterson, his affair, his whereabouts, his family. And yet, as time went on, it became increasingly clear that all that attention was generated from that case and only that case. Jonathan f1 (talk) 22:59, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

It might be better to hold off on creating a separate Luigi Mangione article for now. A separate article would basically be a repeat of the whole 'Suspect' section (and other content) from this article, plus random trivia (e.g. the video games he played). Some1 (talk) 00:07, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

'All the time', it so happens that people say "don't create the article now", and after a Deletion-discussion, an article gets kept.--Go ahead, and publish article, and make "your" case in the article.--He is still front page news in my country. Today's headline, linked from front page: 'Luigi (26) is getting massive amounts of support -
Competitions, monetary support and protests - the U.S. is supporting the alleged killer'
Link, https://www.vg.no/nyheter/i/93GvyW/luigi-mangione-26-faar-massiv-stoette-paa-sosiale-medier

Scott Peterson in comparison? Nah. The wiki-notability of Charles Sobhraj, might be a closer comparison. 2001:2020:319:C51C:3521:5326:133:7329 (talk) 08:29, 14 December 2024 (UTC) /2001:2020:319:C51C:F06E:7D2A:883A:D7F6 /2001:2020:319:C51C:3521:5326:133:7329 (talk) 08:30, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how a serial killer in Asia is more analogous than another murder case that generated widespread public interest within the US and interest in the suspect's personal life. Are you trolling? Jonathan f1 (talk) 22:02, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Luigi's Amtrak trip to Philadelphia

Authorities replied just a few moments ago that Luigi went south to New York Penn Station after crossing through the George Washington Bridge Bus Station and left New York City on Amtrak's Northeast Corridor to Philadelphia instead of a bus. Pennsylvania authorities have said Mangione then spent several days traversing the state from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/unitedhealthcare-ceo-killing-latest-luigi-mangione/story?id=116713658 2600:1702:5225:C010:7067:4B5F:E1B8:DDC2 (talk) 21:49, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Lyme disease neurologic and/or psychiatric symptoms of the suspect

Luigi Mangione lawyer might use as defence that his mental state was altered because he had brain fog and mental complication due to his Lyme disease, as some statements discussion appeared online.

Although many patients will improve with appropriate treatment, others will experience ongoing Lyme disease symptoms that may stay with them years or forever, including impaired cognitive function, with several neurologic and/or psychiatric symptoms, debilitating depression, paranoia, dementia, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, panic attacks, major depression, anorexia nervosa, and obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Mangione detailed on Reddit past posts that he had struggles with health issues including Lyme disease and severe brain fog, which he said started after losing sleep during his fraternity’s “hell week” and caused his college grades to start “tanking.” He expressed frustration about how little was understood by the medical community about brain fog, writing that “it’s absolutely brutal to have such a life-halting issue… The people around you probably won’t understand your symptoms - they certainly don’t for me.”

I never got the impression he would self-destruct:’ Friends of suspect in fatal CEO shooting left in shock CNN Retrieved 10 Decembre 2024

What is spondylolisthesis, the back condition that derailed Luigi Mangione’s life? Los Angeles Times Retrieved 11 December

Questioning the role of Lyme disease in the case of Luigi Mangione Lyme Disease Org 12 December 2024

KamiroVolta (talk) 21:51, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Folks, Misplaced Pages is an encylopedia, not a tabloid. We do not need to report on every single new tidbit of gossip, speculation, or tangential thing that might maybe possibly but who knows if is relevant to an article's topic. --ZimZalaBim 03:00, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Your repetitive arguments on this page demonstrate a certain political agenda and belligerent behavior that does not conform to this platform. The medicals facts related to the suspect of one of the most publicized crimes of the decade is highly relevant. We want you to respect the democratic system of this page and stop all redundant dominating comportment. Thanks. KamiroVolta (talk) 03:48, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I see you've been here a total of one day. Perhaps you want to check the five pillars that guide this project. --ZimZalaBim 05:07, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Also be nice to newcomers! They are not familiar with best sources and all the rules yet. I have just come from editing another contentious topic area on Misplaced Pages 🤦‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏽‍♂️🤦🏽‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏾‍♀️ so I am very often trying to follow the policies and guidelines and reliable sources (although I may misinterpret or misread them), but it can be a lot of rules and some are not that easy to understand or recognize violations. Even editors that have been on Misplaced Pages for more than a decade or have 10k plus edits, I have seen some of them making mistakes with policies. Contentious topics can be more stressful. Wafflefrites (talk) 05:52, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I think it’s too soon to add this info. The court trial hasn’t even started. I think we should wait to see if the lawyer decides it’s relevant enough to use as part of the defense. There is still a lot we don’t know, and also the Lyme disease source is a opinion blog source, see WP:blogs. Also please don’t cast aspersions, see WP:ASPERSIONS.

Wafflefrites (talk) 04:12, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Right. I agree that the tools that future lawyers will use in the case, as the outcome of a disease, are only probabilities. Sometimes probabilities are part of relevant information, could I cite here the many Misplaced Pages articles on the subject of economics, but I agree with you to restrict probabilities statements. Nonetheless, this subject of probability aside, the fact - the only fact - that the suspect had Lyme disease, and that he was treated for this long-term disease is now reported by many sources of legit media, and is a relevant information just like his back injury referred to in the article. KamiroVolta (talk) 18:07, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Polls: Americans have overwhelmingly negative views of the killing

Scientific opinion polls have shown that much of the support for the alleged killer is an online phenomenon not reflected among the general American public. The lead still incorrectly gives off the impression that it's a wide majority of Americans who support him. Could this be revised? RomanianObserver41 (talk) 16:35, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

The "Center for Strategic Politics" does not pass the smell test. Looking at an archive.org snapshot, it appears that as of two days ago this organization's website was still being thrown together, displaying placeholder text in various places. In other words, they seemingly put their website together a day after they supposedly conducted this poll. Einsof (talk) 17:08, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

This is not a reliable polling source, per Eisenhof. Stop POV pushing, you’ve been doing it for days. Snokalok (talk) 17:13, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

The original Twitter link was taken from this. Not the Center of Strategic Politics. (I have no strong opinion on whether they should be listed or not.) It's clear however that a majority of Americans do not support the killing as the lead implies. That's not "POV-pushing". The ooening paragraph in the introduction wrongly gives the impression that social media comments are the same as scientific research polling. We should of course place priority on actual, scientific polling. RomanianObserver41 (talk) 17:22, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, that's not an RS for polling, but it's hardly a surprising result. Here's a Miami Herald poll similarly showing that a majority of Americans view Mangione negatively.

This data is more nuanced, and shows a generational divide: more Americans under 45 view Mangione more favorably than Americans over 45. But even among the under 45 cohort, a plurality of responders said they "don't know" what their opinion of him is. As I said the other day, it's Christmas season and many, if not most, are probably not following this case closely. This is certainly what you'd expect of a truly random sample this time of year, verses biased social media reactions. Jonathan f1 (talk) 17:29, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

The Miami Herald is quoting the same survey by the Center for Strategic Politics, so I'm not sure that it's actually more reliable. ~Darth Stabro 17:36, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

But isn't Herald reliable and would that not lend credence to the polls? Not sure about policy here. Jonathan f1 (talk) 17:38, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Surprise, surprise. That's exactly what I said a couple days ago and cautioned editors not to use language that implicates the wider public. Jonathan f1 (talk) 17:19, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

A person reverted back my change to the introductionary paragraph (which basically says everyone supported the killing) as "POV-pushing". This is despite the reality that multiple other scientific opinion polls have also found the exact thing! The article as written is clearly intended to influence reader's perceptions and make them support the alleged killer. I'm not sure why we're placing emphasis on social media posts over actual, scientific polling. Even without the Strategic Center for Politics poll - which has been quoted in major newspapers for the time being, it's very possible that they're just a first time poster - it doesn't change the reality that a vast majority of Americans do not support the killing. (Even if they have complicated, differing, and generally negative opinions of the present American healthcare system.) RomanianObserver41 (talk) 17:31, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Dude, that's not an RS. Just use the Miami Herald poll I linked above and make sure you accurately reflect the results. Jonathan f1 (talk) 17:33, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

That's not a Miami Herald poll. That's the Miami Herald breathlessly reporting the same "Center for Strategic Politics" poll that was objected to above. Einsof (talk) 17:39, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

It was objected to because it came from an unreliable source, but once that data is referenced by a secondary RS, that's no longer the case. Or at least that's how it usually works in my experience. Jonathan f1 (talk) 17:44, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

It does not work that way. Per WP:NEWSORG, Whether a specific news story is reliable for a fact or statement should be examined on a case-by-case basis. Also probably relevant is the policy on articles that just reprint material assembled by somebody else: Press releases from organizations or journals are often used by newspapers with minimal change; such sources are churnalism and should not be treated differently than the underlying press release. There is no indication in the Herald article that the author did anything except regurgitate the poll results, and the article is therefore no more reliable than the polling agency. Einsof (talk) 17:51, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

The Napolitan Institute has a grand total of ten YouTube subscribers. Also hardly a reliable source on the topic. I'm with you in that we need to make sure not to lionize these actions but we need real, reliable sources for it. ~Darth Stabro 17:34, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

The polling is by Scott Rasmussen, a right-wing albeit widely used pollster in polling aggregates. (Nate Silver's models, DecisionDeskHQ, CNN, and others all use him; the notable exception is that post-Nate Silver 538 notably doesn't.) I don't see the problem with sourcing it with attribution. His polls are widely used on Misplaced Pages. RomanianObserver41 (talk) 17:44, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Look, you're not going to get that source in here, but the Miami Herald used the dame source, so let's stick to that. One editor said the Herald "breathlessly reported" this data, but we're not supposed to be making those assessments about RSes. If the source is generally reliable, assume good faith (that they investigated the original source, the methodology checked out and was worthy of publication). Jonathan f1 (talk) 17:49, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Just to repeat what I said above, our policies on reliable sources do, in fact, instruct us to determine whether a source simply repeats material from some other underlying source, and if, so, to assess the reliability according to the underlying source (WP:NEWSORG). That is exactly what is going on here. Einsof (talk) 17:54, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Okay, so the assumption pertaining to this totally predictable polling outcome is that a mainstream media source that's got multiple levels of corporate oversight and editorial review just "breathlessly reported" a poll like Joe Schmuck on X would. Got it. Jonathan f1 (talk) 17:59, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

To follow up on this -none of those policies you linked say anything about generally reliable news sources reporting polls. Which one are you specifically referring to? Jonathan f1 (talk) 18:05, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, those policies are generally applicable and are not suspended just because the material regurgitated by the news source happens to be a poll as opposed to some other kind of organizational press release. Einsof (talk) 18:14, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

But it's your opinion that they just "regurgitated it" and did not do any fact-checking. When a news source has a reputation for editorial oversight, we do not normally assume they just "regurgitate" whatever they read on the internet, like your average social media user. Jonathan f1 (talk) 18:18, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Yet social media comments (a non-representative sample if there ever was one) are supposed to dictate the article implying or directly claiming that a majority of Americans support the killing. Right now... jt evens claim that the social media comments are the mainstream perspective. I hate to come off as rude... but it comes across as editors manipulating and finding loopholes in the rules to push a viewpoint as the overwhelmingly dominant interpretation that is clearly a minority in real life.

It is true that scientific opinion polling and common sense (if we're going to have a "smell test" criteria that's vague and individual to the reader) shows that Americans have gripes with the U.S. healthcare system. They also show that a vast majority also disapprove of random, targetted killings.

The alleged manifesto from the alleged killer is one page, incoherent, and simply repeats common and vague gripes (many cited to smart people no doubt) about the nation's healthcare system. It also included violent threats and a "I'm too lazy to write a coherent manifesto" ending - (Unlike Industrial Society and Its Future... which be was supposedly inspired by. Which, for all its faults, is truly a coherent and detailed manifesto.) - so the claims in the article that the alleged killer was a unique genius who understood the American healthcare system seems doubtful at best. Most killers, even those with political motivations, are unsurprisingly ineffective at getting sympathy and would have been violent anyway. The alleged killer's social media also backs that up. He previously blamed institutions rather than particular individual's for societial problems.

Unfortunately with how Misplaced Pages works: a dedicated minority can override that of an exhausted or indifferent majority... which is how I suspect how this page got significant POV issues.

Unfortunately I have a feeling that no amount of scientific opinion polling, contradicting evidence, or anything else is going to change the minds of certain editors, so I don't see this page improving for awhile.

It needs significantly changed. I've offered suggestions but they're all getting rejected. RomanianObserver41 (talk) 18:19, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Here's another NY Times poll indicating that "most Americans say they have good health insurance," Also says that recent social media rage doesn't tell the whole story. Jonathan f1 (talk) 17:36, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

The final introductionary sentence should read:

According to a Scott Rasmussen/RMG Research opinion poll published by Napolitan News Service on December 13, a predominant majority of Americans opposed the killing, believe that Mangione is guilty, and would vote for his conviction if they were a juror. The killing also led to revived criticism of the American healthcare systemand a notable social media campaign online that reacted to the killing with contempt and mockery towards Thompson and UnitedHealth Group, and with sympathy and praise for the assailant. Threats against business leaders by others referencing the killing also occurred. Inquiries about protective services and security for CEOs and corporate executives surged.

I'm not sure how this is pushing a point of view. I'm still confused on why we're taking social media comments as a general reflection of the population. We should be priorizing actual, scientific opinion polls over any social media comments. If the latter was accurate: Bernie Sanders would be President after Ron Paul completed his second term. Additionally, the last paragraph was based on the debunked chart (talked about above) that wrongly showed that UnitedHealthcare uniquely denied individual's treatments. at higher rates than comparative insurers. If anything, the article as written is a POV-mess that is clearly edited in a way intended to influence reader's perception of the event.

One labeled the alleged killer's family "working class" despite the fact that his was richer than the healthcare CEO's! RomanianObserver41 (talk) 17:52, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

That would be giving WP:UNDUE weight to one polling in the lead, and the lead should be summarizing the body of the article. Please heed the advice on your talk page: User_talk:RomanianObserver41#Adding_new_information_to_articles_should_be_done_in_the_body_first. Some1 (talk) 17:55, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

That's circular reasoning. Both the lead and body obviously need to be revised. RomanianObserver41 (talk) 18:05, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I posed this question to the RS noticeboard]. Jonathan f1 (talk) 18:13, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I've also noticed circular reasoning from many of the arguments here. Claiming that the (biased) paragraphs in the body of the article means that the last introductionary paragraph can't be revised to be more neutral or that the body itself can't be revised to be more neutral. (It's very easy to find denouncements of the killing and the alleged killer as well.) This is crushing to my sanity. RomanianObserver41 (talk) 18:24, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Might be best just to start an RfC if you're struggling to gain consensus. Regardless of whether these arguments are circular or any good is somewhat irrelevant right now as there is distinct opposition to this content being added to the article, which is unlikely to change without broader input. CNC (talk) 18:32, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't know what to tell you -it's remarkable to me that in 2024 people still think every social media eruption is a glimpse into the wider public, with no actual evidence indicating as much. The lead still says "Many Americans reacted online to the killing with contempt and mockery towards Thompson," as if a mob on social media equates to "many Americans." If we go by the mob, then no one in the public would turn Mangione in (they did), no grand jury will indict him (they will), because Americans are all being brutally oppressed by their health insurance companies, when in fact this NY Times poll says most Americans rate their healthcare "good," and cautions against placing too much stock in social media rage.

Oh well don't sweat it -this article will probably improve over time as more info comes out and more people work on it. Jonathan f1 (talk) 18:41, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

The polls are soft sources, and there are better sources such as Killing of insurance CEO reveals simmering anger at US health system in the article.--♦IanMacM♦ 18:51, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

So, a scientific poll is a 'soft source', but that BBC piece, baaed almost entirely on social media reactions, unverified claims, and commentary from street activists is apparently an unmovable object. It isn't even on topic -the issue is not if many Americans have healthcare grievances (they do), but if they support the murderer of a CEO or any violence against executives. Doesn't even address this very specific issue with any data.

Your link also cites data consistent with the NY Times poll and other polls: "Most insured adults, 81%, still rated their health insurance as "excellent" or "good"." This, too, flies in the face of what we're hearing on social media. Jonathan f1 (talk) 19:01, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

BBC is top draw RS. OR will get you nowhere here. CNC (talk) 19:04, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

OR? The issue here is whether "many Americans" support the CEO killer, not the social media reactions to the killing or who has healthcare grievances. The BBC piece linked above contains no actual data about support for the killer, but does say a large majority of insured Americans are satisfied with their coverage. That isn't OR -I quoted the same source you're holding up as the gold standard. Jonathan f1 (talk) 19:09, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

"Your link also cites data consistent with the NY Times poll and other polls" reads as OR to me, and thus wouldn't be fit for inclusion. CNC (talk) 19:14, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

NY Times poll: "Most Americans say they have good health insurance.". BBC:"Most insured adults, 81%, still rated their health insurance as "excellent" or "good.".

So, not OR. Jonathan f1 (talk) 19:48, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

That content, and those sources, has nothing to do with the source you are talking about nor the content you want to include. CNC (talk) 19:53, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Someone else wanted to include a poll that's been referenced by the Miami Herald, and I don't see a problem with it, but others do, and I can see why (it's just one poll at this point, and was not conducted by the Herald, even though it seems legit to me). If the BBC piece is irrelevant to the topic under discussion, then tell it to the editor who cited that piece in response to this topic. Because I already told him that.

The topic is, "Despite online perceptions, most Americans don't support the CEO killer." This is the issue that needs to be addressed if/when more polling is published. Jonathan f1 (talk) 20:14, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Per the poll you want to include "61% of respondents said they have a strong or somewhat negative perception of Mangione,", making that quote accurate and not an issue. CNC (talk) 20:22, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

What isn't an issue? The main takeaway from that poll cited by OP is that most Americans have negative views of the killer, which is inconsistent with social media reactions. Opinions of US healthcare are also more complicated than these social media users portray it, but that's a separate issue. Jonathan f1 (talk) 20:27, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Apologies returned my comment given the reply. I thought what you quoted was already in the article, but instead this is the content you wish to include? Genuinely confused. But overall, I think just wait for further analysis from reliable sources. CNC (talk) 20:35, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Someone else wanted to include it, I didn't see a problem with that, but you've persuaded me to wait and see if other sources back it up. So, unless someone else wants to jump in here, I don't have anything more to add. Jonathan f1 (talk) 20:37, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Patience is a virtue. CNC (talk) 20:43, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

So they say.. Jonathan f1 (talk) 20:44, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

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