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Luigi Mangione

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Luigi Mangione (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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WP:BLP1E; see also Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Luigi Mangione Launchballer 20:55, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. E_F 20:57, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

  Keep. Deleting will let those in power silence us. 2600:1700:5192:4930:8451:D5CE:E12B:AC93 (talk) 03:40, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

• Delete. This article is wholly unnecessary, and it has duplicate scope with Killing of Brian Thompson#Suspect. guninvalid (talk) 20:57, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

  As with the MfD, this is probably going to WP:SNOWBALL Delete. Leave it as redirect, if even that. guninvalid (talk) 20:59, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

• Keep of course, WP:BLP1E clearly states as the third requirement for omitting someone on that basis 3. The event is not significant or the individual's role was either not substantial or not well documented. and then proceeds to provide examples. We have significant reliable sources, the content in the article is verifiable and the subject of the article, even in these early days, receives consistent ongoing coverage. Little reason to believe this article won't simply continue to expand. —Locke Cole • t • c 20:59, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
• Delete and keep working on the Killing of Brian Thompson article. Reason 1 According to WP:PERPETRATOR, a separate article of someone only known in connection with a crime or trial should not normally be a separate article but may be created "only if this is necessitated by considerations of article size." Killing of Brian Thompson currently is 4,107 words, whereas article split criteria is >8,000 words for "May need to be divided or split" per WP:SIZERULE.

Reason 2: WP:PERPETRATOR also does say "Editors must give serious consideration to not creating an article on an alleged perpetrator when no conviction is yet secured." I do think the subject meets contemporaneous notability, but based on the article size criteria not being met and there being no conviction yet, I do not think there should be an article on this topic yet.

Reason 3: I am also not sure if the historical significance criteria in WP:PERP has been met yet as “Generally, historic significance is indicated by sustained coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources which persists beyond contemporaneous news coverage and devotes significant attention to the individual's role.” All the reporting on the subject is currently contemporaneous. Maybe the Killing of Brian Thompson article scope could be expanded, or are we not supposed to be putting suspect biographical info there? Wafflefrites (talk) 21:34, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

• Keep very clearly notable with the amount of media coverage and large online fanbase- if this were merged into Killing of Brian Thompson then the latter would rapidly become a WP:COAT article. Chessrat 23:33, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People and United States of America. Comr Melody Idoghor (talk) 23:47, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
• Delete. WP:BLP1E Andre🚐 23:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
• Redirect and protect. Misplaced Pages's longstanding consensus is not to have a standalone article on a person accused of a crime who has not yet been found guilty. For now, we have not seen either condition met for a standalone article on a perpetrator per WP:CRIM: The victim of the crime is a renowned national or international figure, including, but not limited to, politicians or celebrities; or The motivation for the crime or the execution of the crime is unusual—or has otherwise been considered noteworthy—such that it is a well-documented historic event. Generally, historic significance is indicated by sustained coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources which persists beyond contemporaneous news coverage and devotes significant attention to the individual's role. Thompson was not a "renowned national or international figure" prior to his killing, and we are not yet at the point of weighing the "historic significance" of the event. Furthermore, creating this page treads on WP:CRIM's guidance that Editors must give serious consideration to not creating an article on an alleged perpetrator when no conviction is yet secured. If/when Mangione is found guilty, this page can come right back. For now, the redirect to Killing of Brian Thompson#Suspect should be restored and protected to enforce this consensus pending a verdict. Dclemens1971 (talk) 01:02, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Dclemens1971 You've quoted quite a bit of WP:CRIME here, but you've missed important parts sadly that make your claim of consensus troubling. In particular, the first passage you quoted (the bit about renowned national or international figures, etc) is only relevant if this is true: Where there are no appropriate existing articles, the criminal or victim in question should be the subject of a Misplaced Pages article only if one of the following applies:. We do, of course, have an "appropriate existing article" (Killing of Brian Thompson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)), so that whole bit (and your arguments based on it) is moot. That also includes the "alleged perpetrator" quotation, which is really just a rehash of WP:BLPCRIME.

  If we turn to WP:BLPCRIME then, it states For individuals who are not public figures—that is, individuals not covered by § Public figures—editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed or is accused of having committed a crime, unless a conviction has been secured for that crime. The argument for exclusion falls apart when you consider that Luigi Mangione is definitely a "public figure" and WP:WELLKNOWN with the amount of scrutiny they have received since they were arrested and charged for the killing. Turning our attention back to WP:CRIME, we're left with article size being a potential reason to WP:SPINOUT to a separate article. Killing of Brian Thompson has certainly grown in size in just the past two weeks since the killing took place, and size concerns will only become more significant as more sources and information about Luigi is released in reliable sources. But I'd argue keeping the biography in the event article are WP:UNDUE and WP:BALASP concerns: certainly some discussion of the alleged killer is relevant in the event article, but there will be concerns if his biography expands to things beyond those relevant to the event itself (and certainly if things aren't proportional to the overall event). —Locke Cole • t • c 14:12, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Delete with no prejudice against recreating at a later date if Killing of Brian Thompson gets too long or something changes to justify a separate article. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 01:36, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep - absolute given. notable given the coverage around him. More coverage is focused on him than the target. 97.115.189.88 (talk) 02:01, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep. Guy is famous enough by now. Then again, Dclemens1971 makes a valid point. The thing is that it is only sometimes that we get really picky about our guidelines and it's especially so in the case of crime/criminal, and I don't really see the point of that pickiness. Drmies (talk) 02:15, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  I get the impulse to go WP:IAR here, but the redirect both meets informational needs and upholds the consensus guidelines. Dclemens1971 (talk) 02:27, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  My main reason is because of WP:BLPCT. BLPs are contentious topics per arbitration enforcement committee. With contentious topics, you must “comply with all applicable policies and guidelines”. Having come from over a year of editing in another CT area on Misplaced Pages, I definitely know that Ignore All Rules does not apply to contentious topics. Wafflefrites (talk) 02:52, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Keep per above.-🐦DrWho42👻 02:20, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• delete as per Dclemens1971. There is no need yet for an article about the suspect. This is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. We don't have to add every detail about him that the media reports. The Killing of Brian Thompson limits narrowly what we can say about the suspect, because we are only including things related to the crime and his alleged involvement. And that's how it should be. Kingturtle = (talk) 02:49, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep as per Chessrat's reasoning. Kyleroo (talk) 03:54, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Keep as per Locke_Cole's response above. The article is already long as it is. It's inevitable that more information will continue to flow in especially in the coming weeks. Kokaynegeesus (talk) 04:14, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: California, Hawaii, Maryland, and Pennsylvania. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 04:15, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Keep as per Chessrat's reasoning. ]
• Keep He is clearly notable and is receiving plenty of media coverage. Here's a couple of articles that are primarily focused on him and not the killing There's currently content in the Killing of Brian Thompson article (i.e. the last paragraph of the #Possible motives and views section) regarding his views/political views, etc. that are more appropriate for a biography than for the event article. Some1 (talk) 04:48, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. Just because newspapers are reporting things does not mean they are encyclopedic. Kingturtle = (talk) 12:18, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  We’re in luck, in this case what they’re reporting is encyclopedic. —Locke Cole • t • c 12:43, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Keep, per WP:CRIME articles on perpetrators are deemed notable if motivation for the crime is unusual - Mangione has had extensive media coverage about his motives allegedly being a revenge killing. The execution of the crime has also been covered as being meticulously planned. I don't think WP:BLP1E applies to this page as the event is significant and the individual's role is substantial - there seems to be more coverage on him than the actual victim. jolielover♥talk 05:14, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• Redirect per Dclemons. Killing of Brian Thompson#Suspect already has all the content, because it is all relevant to the event. The sources above are still within the sphere of the killing and its background and response. A WP:DUPLICATE WP:REDUNDANT page or is not warranted. Reywas92 05:32, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep - that is what i am leaning toward.--In 2011, this killer had an article (and is still in isolation, even though a model prisoner). Wiki's guidelines have not changed significantly since then, regarding suspects. The killer had an article two days after the crime - and a year before the first conviction. 2001:2020:32F:E6A2:E8A1:CBF8:BC0:B10E (talk) 05:56, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep: Responsibly written and very well sourced. The subject is receiving new reliable coverage from quality sources every day. There is intense interest, and this responsibly written article is a strong example of the excellence of Misplaced Pages in providing reliable and current information. SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:59, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  The article should be allowed to continue, collecting the best sources as they arrive. Should coverage not continue long term, only then should it possibly be redirected as a flash in the pan lacking ongoing interest. Given the current ongoing coverage, it is not reasonable to assume that there will not be long term interest. SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:11, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Merge and Redirect to Killing of Brian Thompson#Suspect. A person who is accused of a crime is innocent until proven guilty. Misplaced Pages should not have a separate article about a suspect who is only notable for the crime he is accused of, before conviction. see WP:CRIME in addition to WP:SUSPECT. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 07:26, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• Comment: Fixed subsection indicator, which appears to have been signed by Comfr—that is, by writing four tildes. Kyleroo (talk) 10:20, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep: Obviously very notable.CallumPaxton (talk) 10:32, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep. What is clear to me is that he is not only notable but will only become more notable over time in the event of his trial and any ensuing protests.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Electricmaster (talk • contribs) 13:04, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• Merge and Redirect to Killing of Brian Thompson per WP:BLP and connected. Sjö (talk) 13:13, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• Redirect to Killing of Brian Thompson for the time being, per Wafflefrites, Reywas92, abd Cameron Dewe. I agree that WP:BLPCT, WP:CRIME, WP:DUP, are WP:REDUNDANT all apply here. Of course, the full article can be restored to the mainspace if and when future events/circumstances warrant it, but there's no need to be hasty. A. Randomdude0000 (talk) 13:36, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Keep Idek mann (talk) 13:38, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Keep. You could make an article about the impact that Luigi has had alone. AdrianHObradors (talk) 13:41, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Keep: Subject has received a lot of attention for his suspected role in killing that CEO. However, even outside of that event, he has also received much attention that focuses on him solely as an individual. Articles on Mangione's political views, his background, and also how the populace has responded to his actions. Although one could argue that recentism comes into play, I don't think the interest surrounding him will necessarily die out; especially with a documentary on the way. I guess we could wait until mid-January and see whether he's still relevant or not.--PanagiotisZois (talk) 14:09, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep We have an article on Dzokhar Tsarnaev and Derek Chauvin, who are about as BLP1E as you can get. Mangione has received international media attention, and has become the subject of a notable antiestablishment political movement: . 🐔 Chicdat   16:52, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  Comment This event is not remotely comparable to the murder of George Floyd, nor the Boston Marathon bombing. Also worth nothing both of those individuals were found guilty in highly publicised, discussed and protested trials. MB2437 22:59, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Merge and Redirect (at this time) to Killing of Brian Thompson as this is all he is notable for, he does not have independent notability, note as well, he has not yet been found guilty, so he may not even be notable for thisSlatersteven (talk) 16:56, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. ~Darth Stabro 17:12, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep Lots of attention in the media. We have articles for even obscure topics, this as an internet meme is notable, let alone the crime side of it. Bedivere (talk) 17:19, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep This article is helpful in knowing Luigi's life up to the incident and to help understand why he killed the CEO. Rager7 (talk) 17:29, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

The problem with that justification is that we do not know if he killed the CEO. He has not been found guilty. Moreover, we do not know his motivations. This page simply allows people to assume those things and make implications. Clear violation of policy. ~Darth Stabro 17:37, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Be very careful with your wording. Misplaced Pages cannot say he killed anyone until a court of law says so. Kingturtle = (talk) 18:46, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Not true. Eadweard Muybridge “shot and killed Major Harry Larkyns” and was never convicted. SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:30, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Keep The sheer amount of media attention he's received is enough to justify this in my opinion. Thief-River-Faller (talk) 17:48, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep - Mangione was something of a folk hero even before he was identified, with look-alike contests. Despite the fact that he hasn't been convicted, his life apart from the (alleged) killing has been subject to considerable coverage in reliable sources. He meets the GNG. Guettarda (talk) 18:27, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  He has generated this news coverage, look alike contests, "folk hero" status as you say, etc. solely because of his status as a suspect/accused in the killing. That's the definition of WP:BLP1E. I have no doubt there will be a future article on Mangione, but as long as he's not pled guilty or been convicted, he should be covered as part of the alleged crime. Dclemens1971 (talk) 18:58, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  It's not though.

  • Reliable sources cover the person only in the context of a single event - as Chicdat mentioned, we have articles on Derek Chauvin and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. That's because sources discuss Chauvin's and Tsarnaev's lives more broadly - just as they have discussed Mangione's life more broadly.
  • The person otherwise remains, and is likely to remain, a low-profile individual - Mangione has become a folk hero. Even if they were acquitted, they're unlikely to fade into obscurity.
  • The event is not significant or the individual's role was either not substantial or not well documented - Thompson's murder has become significant in way many other murders are not. NY is planning to create a special line for CEOs who feel unsafe. And Mangione has been charged with the murder now, so his role appears to be substantial.

  Guettarda (talk) 21:13, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Keep and a trout to the nom for completely skipping over the part of BLP1E that requires "3. The event is not significant or the individual's role was either not substantial or not well documented." Obviously, BLP1E does not apply to this person, who had a substantial and well-documented role in a significant event. Even if he's not convicted, he is notable as a suspect. Passes WP:GNG by a mile with sustained international news coverage. Shouldn't be merged with the article about the murder itself, as the biography of the suspect would overwhelm the article about the murder. Levivich (talk) 19:09, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Keep we have an article for the two would-be Trump assassins. Luigi is such an infamous guy at this point, he definetally deserves his own article. KILLGOESE (talk) 19:35, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Keep - (1) as noted above by several other experienced editors, there is now significant coverage about the subject beyond the crime itself, and (2) ignore all rules if the deletion would be so controversial as to harm the project. Bearian (talk) 19:49, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  Ignore all rules does not apply to BLP or BLPCRIM. Kingturtle = (talk) 19:53, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  I read over the twelve words at WP:IAR and didn’t see any that exempted BLP. Regardless, there’s not really any valid BLP concerns so far worth considering. —Locke Cole • t • c 21:02, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Redirect No need for a separate page. Reflecktor (talk) 21:44, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep There has been massive media coverage worldwide, and it shows no sign of abating. Edwardx (talk) 22:00, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  "No sign of abating" is hyperbole. His name has seen a significant drop in trending. Kingturtle = (talk) 22:32, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  I think it may probably go up/down due to court developments. His indictment charge recently went up to first degree murder, so I expect that to be breaking news. Wafflefrites (talk) 23:26, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Keep So many different reliable sources talking about this mans life, job, schooling, beliefs, etc. Definitely notable. Shoot for the Stars (talk) 22:34, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• keep Luigi is an individual outside of the assassination, and there are individual wikipedia pages for many criminals/terrorists/assassins separate from the page about the crime specifically. Iristhescorpio (talk) 23:30, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Keep A lot of the rationales cited for deletion no longer apply to Luigi Mangione. As noted by others. WP:BLP1E allows for the article per criterion #3 (the event is significant and his role in it is central and well-documented). He has become too famous/notorious for WP:BLPCRIME to apply, whether found guilty or not, he is already a notable person. Sources are, for example, discussing his celebrity/folk hero status - . This article for example says that his popularity has already far eclipsed any of the would-be Trump assassins who are not household names (and those two persons have their own articles). WP:PERPETRATOR also permits this article through perpetrator criterion #2 - the presumed motivation is unusual and notable and has sparked wider discussion about the health care system in the US. I see no reason to delete or redirect it. Hzh (talk) 23:51, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep. At this point in time Mangioni and the killing have both become far more than even the normal suspects/crimes that are notable for Misplaced Pages. The second and third prongs of BLP1E would seem to no longer bar creation. We still have to be very careful to not presume guilt per WP:BLPCRIME, but a standalone article, given the overwhelming amount of sources, including many which delve into information that would not be suitable on the killing page, is probably warranted. -- Patar knight - /_{contributions} 00:05, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
• Delete per nom and also as per guidelines at WP:CRIME which state: "Editors must give serious consideration to not creating an article on an alleged perpetrator when no conviction is yet secured." In my view this article has been created too soon. Mangione has not yet been convicted in court. Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 00:14, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep - clearly notable. He will definitely have long term significance. Current coverage is massive. Paul Vaurie (talk) 00:53, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

• Delete per Dclemens1971 Pdubs.94 (talk) 01:18, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
• keep Wikiuser3315 (talk) 01:46, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep. The issue is... WP:BLP1E doesn't apply anymore as Luigi has been declared a "hero" online. He has an ample amount of coverage both in context of the event and as an individual. , , . - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:28, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

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