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Change "child prostitute" to "child sex trafficking victim". Children can not consent so can not prostitute themselves
The section I am referring to
In September 2012, former Philadelphia child prostitute Greg Bucceroni alleged that in 1979 and 1980 Philadelphia philanthropist Ed Savitz brought him from his New Jersey residence to State College Second Mile fund raiser for the purpose of child trafficking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robertheadley (talk • contribs) 13:31, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
First Sentence: Probability in Justice System
Dear editors, since there is a lock on the page, I cannot make the simple correction.
"American convicted serial..." should be changed to "American convicted of serial..."
this is due to jury decisions being made on probabilities that never completely equal 1. 73.203.247.131 (talk) 12:58, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
- Should be changed to " American serial child molester" and the retired coach part should be removed. 2602:63:c3e6:4400:814a:c9:37ff:5309 (talk)04:48, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 1 December 2017
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The opening statement in Misplaced Pages "Sandusky is a convicted serial rapist" is flatly inaccurate in a way that impugns the credibility of the rest of the article. Sandusky was convicted of molestation, not rape. Only one rape charge was brought against Sandusky, and it was dropped when the eyewitness corrected the grand jury claim on this in trial testimony. While eyewitness McQueary was passionate that what he saw was sexual, he never described sexual contact or arousal in his multiple testimonies. 71.60.171.200 (talk) 15:55, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
Not done: And not likely to be done. Sandusky's complete verdicts shows Guilty verdicts by the jury on no less than nine counts of "Involuntary deviate sexual intercourse" against five victims. These are rapes of underaged victims by any reasonable definition and therefore the sentence in the lead is fully supported by reliable sources in keeping with the policy on biographies of living persons. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:13, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
Jim Clemente's report
"There is no other way to say it: on the most critical aspects of the Sandusky investigation, the SIC report is a failure. It does a tremendous disservice to Penn State, Joe Paterno, and the victims of Jerry Sandusky.” -jim clemente
while mostly agreeing with freeh report, he disagrees with the conclusion and its approach to combating pedophilia. Why is it not even mentioned in the article/entry on this site? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joshuadgibbs (talk • contribs) 23:16, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
why is crack locked??
the crack and meth pages are controversial????
O_o — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.223.187.27 (talk) 20:50, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
"at his age, effectively a life sentence"
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- at his age, effectively a life sentence
This should be removed from the lede. It serves no encyclopedic function whatsoever. --2A0A:A541:658D:0:3D2A:FAE6:FAF2:55F7 (talk) 10:37, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Done Glaring Typo in "Early Life and Family," Section
There is an obvious typo in the "Early Life and Family," section near the middle of paragraph 2. The paragraph & error in question read as follows:
"At home, Jerry Sandusky adopted his own personal code.. He also vowed to not be disrespectful to his teachers and **swear** to himself that he would tell the truth if he was caught breaking any rules" (emphasis added: **).
"Swear" is not the right word; it should say "swore" instead.
Here, the word "swear,".. (1) is the incorrect verb tense, (2) disagrees with the preceding verb in the same clause ("he vowed" vs. "he swear"), and (3) is the wrong conjugation of "to swear" when speaking in third-person past-tense
Can someone with sufficient edit privileges please fix this? PodbertMippy (talk) 05:49, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- PodbertMippy, thank you for pointing this out. I undertook a review of the original edit and found it was added with the grammar error, however there was a reliable source provided (his biography) and I was unable to view the book online to verify the citation. I have assumed good faith on the part of the original editor and corrected the grammar as you suggested. Thanks again, happy editing! Elizium23 (talk) 06:39, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- Surely the word here takes its tense from "He vowed to..." which means that "swear" should be used as when he vowed the action was in the future, as in "he would swear"? Britmax (talk) 19:11, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request
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In the third paragraph under Verdict and sentencing, please change “virtually assuring he will die in prison” to “effectively a life sentence” as it provides certainty in an uncertain situation, thus being WP:SYNTH. It also serves no encyclopediac function.2603:8081:160A:BE2A:84D2:B618:1BD7:990 (talk) 02:30, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
Done. I've just taken the whole thing out. ◢ Ganbaruby! (Say hi!) 09:43, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 16 April 2022
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EDIT REQUEST: Under the subtitle “Trial”, third paragraph (victim 4), please change “unwanted oral and anal sex” to “forced…”. These children did not “want“ the abuse. Thanks 2001:569:F951:5700:9CB8:F9BA:55F:9FD5 (talk) 20:34, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Not done - Perhaps I'm missing something here, but I'm not sure what the issue is - the children did not "want" the abuse, therefore it was "unwanted". PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 01:28, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- I understand the edit request. An eventual allegation of a witness of repeated forced anal/oral sex is something which the witness had no way to prevent repeating over and over again despite attemtping not to attend anymore. A similar allegation was Victim 1 being collected in his own home in a car, and pulled out of class at school repeatedly against his will (although the defense unsuccessfully claimed he was never pulled out of class even once), and another victim was repeatedly held prisoner in a basement while screaming and trying to escape. Unwanted only implies the witness would have tolerated it but would have been able to prevent attending while repeated forced intercourse is more consistent with prosecutor McGettigan's careful characterisation of the Second Mile charity having been set up as a conveyor belt for abuse. However I also understand that the request (while valid) is not hugely important as no-one should need to think closely about any particular witness statement. Createangelos (talk) 16:46, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- (talk page watcher) ScottishFinnishRadish, I just noticed the change and wondered about it. I haven't followed this issue, so if it's discussed above, please forgive me. Is there evidence of "force"? That implies physical violence, rather than grooming, manipulation, or inducements of a young and naive child. Without evidence of physical violence, "forced" is the wrong word and "unwanted" or "improper" would be better words. What is legally defined as "rape" takes many forms, from clear physical force and violence to unwanted acts that occur without strong physical resistance from the fearful or petrified victim. It's still "unwanted" abuse and rape, even when not accompanied by physical, overpowering, force. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:39, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
Over time, Sandusky’s advances became more forceful and sexual, including wrestling the boy to the ground and forcing him to perform oral sex, he testified.
I think that covers it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:45, 29 April 2022 (UTC)- Valjean, sorry, forgot the ping. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:46, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, that certainly covers it. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:06, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Valjean, sorry, forgot the ping. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:46, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- (talk page watcher) ScottishFinnishRadish, I just noticed the change and wondered about it. I haven't followed this issue, so if it's discussed above, please forgive me. Is there evidence of "force"? That implies physical violence, rather than grooming, manipulation, or inducements of a young and naive child. Without evidence of physical violence, "forced" is the wrong word and "unwanted" or "improper" would be better words. What is legally defined as "rape" takes many forms, from clear physical force and violence to unwanted acts that occur without strong physical resistance from the fearful or petrified victim. It's still "unwanted" abuse and rape, even when not accompanied by physical, overpowering, force. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:39, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
Good short summary of the innocence position
Certainly John Ziegler's With the Benefit of Hindsight podcast is hands down the best summary of innocence and overwhelmingly proves that Jerry Sandusky is very clearly innocent, but it is about 70 hours long. Certainly AJ Dillon's three year sting of Andrew Shubin and the therapist deserves a selection segment somewhere. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-fourteen-secret-agent-man/id1562078872?i=1000526052032
But for a short readable summary of the innocence position, this is quite good. https://www.bigtrial.net/2021/11/jerry-sandusky-deserves-new-trial.html Wikinovice1 (talk) 17:12, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
Franco Harris
Franco Harris frequently spoke out regarding Mike McQueary and the grand jury pronouncement. Just before death he was working on documenting his conversation so it would not be lost when he died. Fortunately, he did release his third segment just before death and it is the most important of the three segments. For posterity, I am linking to that here so that there is a record of those who have worked to right this outrage which may be the greatest prosecutorial injustice since Salem. https://www.uponfurtherreviewpsu.com/
Wikinovice1 (talk) 17:20, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
AJ Dillon Sting
One of the most remarkable events in this fascinating case is the story of AJ Dillon. AJ is a Second Mile kid who attended the trial and knew that Jerry was innocent and set about trying to expose the hoax. For three years he pretends to be a Jerry Sandusky victim. He records attorney Andrew Shubin changing his story to put abuse on the Penn State campus. AJ also records his therapy sessions for three years showing how the Sandusky case worked. Ie no vetting of any claim for being in any way real. Remarkably, AJ also has a discussion with Ira Lubert of Penn State who also on tape admits they just paid money again with no vetting. These tapes are part of Jerry Sandusky's latest appeal and therefore they too should be part of the permanent record in this case. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-fourteen-secret-agent-man/id1562078872?i=1000526052032 Wikinovice1 (talk) 19:37, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
Wrongful Conviction Beliefs
Jerry Sandusky has a new appeal hearing May 25, 2023. This page should be updated to reflect wrongful conviction beliefs in my humble opinion. In looking at proposed edits here, there seems to be a lot of misinformation. I am new to Wiki and don't know how to edit. The page is locked anyhow. I did prepare some things that should be included.
In the wake of the publication of books and other media asserting the innocence of Jerry Sandusky such as Mark Pendergrast’s “The Most Hated Man in America,” Malcolm Gladwell’s chapter on the case in “Talking to Strangers,” and John Ziegler’s podcast, “With the Benefit of Hindsight,” many people now believe Jerry Sandusky was wrongfully convicted in a moral panic rush to judgement. This topic has been further developed in former Penn State President Graham Spanier’s book “In The Lion’s Den: The Penn State Scandal and a Rush to Judgement”
The narrative that Jerry Sandusky is innocent is based on many factors. Most people are familiar with assertions by government prosecutors that Penn State assistant Coach Mike McQueary witnessed Jerry Sandusky engaged in a sexual act with a 10 year old boy. Prosecutors illegally leaked the Grand Jury prouncement to Patriot News cub reporter Sarah Ganim who published the unfounded salacious allegations setting off a media firestorm leading to Penn State offering payments to anyone who would make a claim against Jerry Sandusky. In the November 5, 2011 Harrisburg Patriot News story, Ms. Ganim wrote: “On March 1, 2002, the night before Spring break, a Penn State graduate assistant walked into the Penn State football locker room around 9:30 p.m. and witnessed Sandusky having sex with a boy about 10 years old. The graduate assistant immediately left the locker room and told his father what he’d seen, noting that both the boy and Sandusky had turned and seen him. The next morning, the witness and his father told head football coach Jo Paterno, who immediately told athletic director Tim Curly.”
The ”Grand Jury Prouncement” and Sarah Ganim’s reporting has now been completely discredited. The boy in the shower, was in fact 14 year old Allan Myers who at the time gave testimony that stating “the grand jury report says Coach McQuery said he observed Jerry and I engaged in sexual activity. This is not the truth and McQuery is not telling the truth. Nothing occurred that night in the shower.”
Allan Myers also penned a tribute/letter to the editor professing Jerry Sandusky’s innocence published in the Center Daily Times. allanmyerslettertoeditor.pdf (framingpaterno.com)
Mike McQuery also stated that the grand jury report was a fabrication in emails stating “I feel my words were slightly twisted and not totally portrayed correctly in the presentment.” http://notpsu.blogspot.com/2017/10/correcting-record-part-1-mcquearys-2001.html#more
Deputy Attorney General Jonelle Eshbach emailed Mike McQuery back stating “I know that a lot of this stuff is incorrect, and it is hard not to respond. But you can’t.”
Testimony given by Mike McQueary casts doubt on the February 9, 2001 date of the event. This date varies by one year from the state stated by Sarah Ganim in her original story. Many including Jerry Sandusky and Allan Myers believe the date was December 29 2000.
Settlement documents between Penn State and the alleged victims have been leaked casting further doubt as to any validity to any claim as those do not match court testimony. The veracity of the claims are also questionable as the attorney for several of the victims has been recorded in a sting operation by Second Mile participant AJ Dillon in which a fake claim is made and Mr. Shubin changes the claim to put the crime on the Penn State campus ostensibly to facilitate a potential payout. Relevant audio is linked here:
Jerry Sandusky continues to maintain his innocence. Frustrated with the slow pace of his appeals he recently drafted his own appeal based on accusations made in Sara Ganim’s recent podcast “The Mayor of Maple Avenue.
Citations.
The Most Hated Man in America: Jerry Sandusky and the Rush to Judgment Paperback – October 28, 2017
by Mark Pendergrast
· Publisher : Sunbury Press, Inc. (October 28, 2017)
· Language : English
· Paperback : 400 pages
· ISBN-10 : 162006765X
· ISBN-13 : 978-1620067659
Talking to Strangers: What We Should Know about the People We Don't Know Paperback – September 28, 2021
· Publisher : Back Bay Books (September 28, 2021)
· Language : English
· Paperback : 416 pages
· ISBN-10 : 0316299227
· ISBN-13 : 978-0316299220
It is Part II “Case study: The boy in the shower
WTBOH: With the Benefit of Hindsight... on Apple Podcasts
In the Lions' Den: The Penn State Scandal and a Rush to Judgment Hardcover – September 6, 2022
· ASIN : B09XRPL7P8
· Publisher : Gryphon/Eagle Press (September 6, 2022)
· Language : English
· Hardcover : 512 pages
· ISBN-13 : 979-8985699494
AJ Dillon Tapes:
With the Benefit of Hindsight...: Episode Fourteen: Secret Agent Man on Apple Podcasts
Patriot News Nov. 5. Penn Live is Patriot News
https://www.pennlive.com/midstate/2011/11/readers_digest_indictment.html
Discussion of Settlement Docs:
New appeals June 2022 filed by Jerry on his own.
Summary of the latest appeal with hearing scheduled for May 25, 2023
https://ralphcipriano.substack.com/p/expert-witness-in-penn-state-case
Wikinovice1 (talk) 17:49, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Hi,
- I did think a lot about your notion of having a separate section of the article about wrongful conviction beliefs....that sounds sort-of weak in some ways. One thing I was thinking is, virtually all the kids described strangely intimate -- but not sexual -- types of affection like kissing the lower stomach when putting a kid to bed at night, or hugging children regardless of whether they are in a shower or not, or having his hand on their knee while driving. These are abundant and Sandusky readily admitted doing all these things in repeated reports, interviews and witness statements. And all the children (virtually) reported that there was no sexual contact, in any of their early poice interviews.
- Yet somehow, the press decided from the beginning to call the witnesses 'victims' -- this was because of the witnessed act of abuse in the Grand Jury presentment, which seemed like this decides the case prima-facie -- even though the jury later decided it didn't happen.
- The great consistency of stories of Sandusky paying for things for Second Mile children, being intimate in tthe ways I mentioned above, described what for many people was the MO of a paedophile. Many pepole (e.g. the lawyer Shubin talking to Dillen) say that their only actual evidence is the argument, why would someone devote their whole life to being that kind if there weren't a motive like a sexual motive somewhere.
- Yet, the stories of sexual abuse are completely different one from the other. They change from one retelling to the next, are completely different from one 'victim' to the next, they are retracted, re-invoked, etc etc.
- The article could reflect that reality better, if there were a way to do that without lengthening it. But instead to be concise it compresses things, for instance, the sentence in the article "The boy's parents reported the incident to police in 2009" refers to AF and the way that he eventually arrived at a story of any type of sexual incident is described in great detail by the expert Moulton report, and also in AF's book "silent no more." That it was over the sitting of two grand juries that AF consented to allow his therapist to read evidence into the first grand jury record, without making any accusation of his own. Pendergrast's book describes eventually AF accusing Sandusky while sobbing in court. His Mom had wanted a financial settlement. And Pendergrast says the sobbing was misunderstood by the jury, as if he was sobbing because he had been abused.
- For Misplaced Pages to refer to "the incident" is good, it does clarify that the report of abuse is somehow less significant than the long months it took to produce it. I can't think how to improve that...Createangelos (talk) 12:02, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for the comments. I somehow missed a notification on this. I am a rookie at this and can't really think of a way to shorten the whole Misplaced Pages page. I think what I wrote has to be somewhat soft since there is a conviction. But more and more are accepting the wrongful conviction position. Graham Spanier mentioned in a CSPAN book signing event that Penn State Lawyers relooked at the case and after listing to With the Benefit of Hindsight, have privately cleared him of any wrongdoing. The topic is too toxic for them to make a public statement. You are certainly well versed. I hear you on the motivation. But if he truly walked the walk of his religion, then that just makes this story so much sadder since there are so few who do. It is like Judas turning on Jesus. Allan Myers, V2, the boy in the shower was Jerry's biggest defender until with no job, a wife and a new baby, he took the $ 7 million dollars to shut his mouth. In my humble opinion somebody just needs to take a stand on this start somewhere and moving the innocence discussion to the formal Wikipeadia page is a good place to start. Did you listen at all to the interview with the reporter who fact checked everything in the Pendegrass book "Most Hated Man in America." The this journalist is broken by his profession not willing to tell the truth in this story. Thank you for your response. It means a lot! Wikinovice1 (talk) 22:43, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
- This is the link to the interview with the Insider reporter who spent over a year fact checking everything in "Most Hated Man in America." He and a came out team innocent. If you listen, he is just broken by his industry in that journalists can't admit they got this story very wrong and his publisher will not let his story see the light of day. Someone has to start telling the truth and I think Misplaced Pages is as good as any to just have a "Wrongful Conviction belief" section. I would bet the reporter, Keenan Trotter, would provide could solid documentation to that section. Again, listen to his anguish to understand why I say that. The Death Of Journalism: Episode Fifty Eight: All In On Iowa on Apple Podcasts
- It is morally wrong to ignore the innocence belief when there is so much evidence of innocent people being prosecutred daily in our nation. Why can's society even discuss the possibility in this case. It is time to take this to the formal wiki page on Jerrry Sandusky and the Penn State Scandal page. https://innocenceproject.org/all-cases/ Wikinovice1 (talk) 18:20, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
- I looked at the Misplaced Pages page for Dr. Spanier. I see there is a section on his book acknowledging the Freeh report was a sham and then this: "Edward Rendell, former Pennsylvania governor, wrote a testimonial for Spanier's account, saying “It is undeniable that this book raises real questions about our justice system.” Yes, Dr. Spanier had his passport taken away, judges ignored the most basic constitutional protections that Americans cannot be tried if a law did not exist at the time to put an innocent man in prison. This case may be the greatest case of judicial misconduct and moral panic of our lives and it is time for the Sandusky page to at least acknowledge wrongful conviction beliefs when the evidence for those beliefs is everywhere. Wikinovice1 (talk) 19:35, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
Case for Innocence section
Per WP:Undue weight concerns, I reverted this "Case for Innocence" material added by Aerkem and AmiLynch. I'll alert the WP:BLP noticeboard to this matter for further input. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:14, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- Mark Pendergrast is a well-known writer, and a specialist of repressed memory. His book on the case of Jerry Sandusky should surely be mentioned, and used as a source. I would admit that a dedicated subsection might not be warranted, but I did not find a more logical way to mention the book, any suggestions? The existing article is structured around legal proceedings, while Pendergrast's book is an independent investigation motivated by an academic debate, so it does not fit naturally. Aerkem (talk) 21:34, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- Special Agent John Snedden investigated the case for the FBI to evaluate whether former University President Spanier’s Top Secret security clearance should be renewed and found there was no sexual abuse at PSU in this case, nor a cover-up. John Ziegler, another author (he is also a documentary filmmaker and former broadcaster), also did years of research and came to believe Sandusky was innocent. Certainly a section on this possibility is warranted.
- It will quickly be discarded if some explanation is not given, hence the work I put in to write those couple paragraphs. I had intended to add a third as well. AmiLynch (talk) 03:34, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- See Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Jerry Sandusky, where I've also pinged you both. A permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:03, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- Ami, In regards to Mark's book, two reporters for Insider spent over a hear fact checking everything in it. When finished, their editor would not publish it because telling the truth in this case is considered to be too toxic. However, I did just learn that the one of the reporters, Keenan Trotter will be putting out his story in what I hope is in a month from now on Substack. I second your request. Too much has come out, too much has been verified to continue the ruse that Jerry Sandusky is a molester. It is well past the time for a Case for Innocence section. Let's hope Keenan''s article moves the debate forward. Also, I see your comment predates John Ziegler's "With the Benefit of Hindsight," podcast. Because of the interviews, etc. that is hands down the best history for this case. Wikinovice1 (talk) 19:51, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
- Looking at the reverted edit, I see way too much speculation being put into wikivoice, and a handful of claims which should be attributed stated as fact. Whether or not the community eventually determines that this is WP:DUE for the article, the text that was reverted should stay out. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:19, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
- The WP:BLP discussion has been archived at Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive266#Jerry Sandusky. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:14, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
- Under the title "What did Joe Paterno really know about the Sandusky scandal at Penn State?", a recent article in the Washington Post reviews the case at length. That article has its own 'case for innocence' section under the subtitle 'The earlier accusers and the Sandusky supporters'. It mentions Mark Pendergrast's book, plus the fact that Elisabeth Loftus would testify in favour of Sandusky in a new trial. John Ziegler is also mentioned. So the theory of Sandusky's innocence is now reflected in a mainstream source. How can we mention some of this in the Misplaced Pages article? Emulating the Washington Post writer and resurrecting a 'Case for innocence' subsection seems the easiest thing to do. Aerkem (talk) 20:20, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry I'm late to this discussion. I tried to add a review of Pendergast's book to the Sandusky page and it was reverted. And now I see you all are aware of it. The citation I was using is from a notable source (Skeptical Inquirer Magazine) and it is secondary (a book review). I was really interested when repressed memories was mentioned as that is a pseudoscience and the WP page is a mess and hopefully soon about to get a rewrite. So my two-cents is that we can't use Pendergrast's book as a direct citation, but reviews of the book can be used. Something needs to be added, or people like myself are going to keep trying to add it, it is a very detailed book that must be mentioned. The author is notable so we have no choice.Sgerbic (talk) 17:47, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- Given what has been stated at Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive266#Jerry Sandusky, I'm not sure. If there are criticisms, at least one criticism should also be added. MPants at work, what are your thoughts on Sgerbic's addition, which I reverted? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:03, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
- Sgerbic, I am new here and have no clue about Wikiediting. It seems like you are familiar with the case for innocence which has gained a lot of traction of late. Will the page be edited to contain exculpatory evidence or is to too much of a political hot potato? Seems like with the new evidentiary hearing in May that the page should reflect wrongful conviction beliefs. Wikinovice1 (talk) 18:06, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry I'm late to this discussion. I tried to add a review of Pendergast's book to the Sandusky page and it was reverted. And now I see you all are aware of it. The citation I was using is from a notable source (Skeptical Inquirer Magazine) and it is secondary (a book review). I was really interested when repressed memories was mentioned as that is a pseudoscience and the WP page is a mess and hopefully soon about to get a rewrite. So my two-cents is that we can't use Pendergrast's book as a direct citation, but reviews of the book can be used. Something needs to be added, or people like myself are going to keep trying to add it, it is a very detailed book that must be mentioned. The author is notable so we have no choice.Sgerbic (talk) 17:47, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- I did another attempt: two lines in the Imprisonment subsection, citing the (more mainstream) Washington Post article in addition to the (more detailed) Sekptic magazine article. I hope that being brief and citing a Washington Post article address the criticisms about previous attempts. Aerkem (talk) 20:09, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
- That edit is okay, I suppose since it briefly puts the repressed memory stuff into the context of requesting a new trial. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:16, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Flyer22 Reborn: I am happy that you find the edit okay, although I am a bit surprised at your reason. You seem to say that the case can be viewed only through the judicial lens. Justice and crime are related, but not identical topics though, and I do not see why the psychological point of view should be subordinate to the judicial point of view. As it stands, this article is heavily biaised towards the judicial point of view, to the point of mentioning procedural trivia that seem out of place in a biography. I wonder if you would give the same deference to a foreign judicial system. Aerkem (talk) 11:18, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
- I wouldn't state that I'm happy with the edit. Just not as opposed. I stated what I stated based on WP:Due weight and the aforementioned BLP noticeboard discussion about this. We can take the matter to that noticeboard again, but I'd rather not. Also, since this page is on my watchlist, there is no need to ping me to it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 11:10, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Flyer22 Reborn: As an anon observer of this page, and a reader of Pendergrast's book, I find your deletions unhelpful and your justifications suspicious. You appear to me to be an officious type who smuggles in his biases under the guise of obeying rules and regulations. In my opinion it is IMMORAL to create a biography that willfully omits materials that might vindicate him, no matter how unconvincing those materials may be. The WP:Due weight rule does not say no mention of the minority point of view can be allowed. There is not a single reference to Pendergrast's work. According to the page as it stands, the reader would never know a comprehensive argument for Sandusky's innocence had ever been made. This, again, is IMMORAL. This is a man's life, and his guilt and possible innocence should be fairly weighed in a public document claiming authority of an encylopedia. As for @Zareth's claim that "The subject was obviously chosen for his high-profile status (sells more books that way)" the Pendergrast explains that publishing the book was almost impossible. Nobody wanted to touch it. So, not obvious at all. When a notable lifelong contributor to the literature debunking recovered memories writes a book about recovered memory therapy abuse in a high profile case, a book with a blurb from the matriarch of psychological establishment's criticism of recovered memory, Elizabeth Loftus, it warrants a brief mention I'm sorry to inform you. @ValarianB writes that Pendergrast's book received "A lone mention in Skeptic Magazine along with a lot of primary source links to the book. That is pretty much textbook promotional." The reason Pendergrast's book on Sandusky was extensively analyzed in Skeptic magazine was because they knew nobody was going to read it. It's not "textbook" promotion, but the last opportunity for Pendergrast's arguments to see the light of day. Effectively half of the book's argument has been made available in the Skeptic article, highly unusual for a book review I'm sure you will agree. Not "textbook" at all. To summarize, I find all the reasons offered to keep Pendergrast's book out of the Sandusky article highly biased to the point of mental retardation. I'm going to leave you now to read books (not online articles) and write books (not online articles). Enjoy your REEEE while it lasts. (CC: @Aerkem) 113.11.226.208 (talk) 17:56, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
- You are not just an "anon observer of this page." Your proper WP:Indenting and use of the WP:Ping give you away on that. And as for Zaereth, since you messed up pinging him, I've pinged him for you. As for the rest, I'm not going to debate you on any of it. I know this site's rules and I stand by what I stated. Your faulty opinion of me matters not. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:38, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Flyer22 Reborn: As an anon observer of this page, and a reader of Pendergrast's book, I find your deletions unhelpful and your justifications suspicious. You appear to me to be an officious type who smuggles in his biases under the guise of obeying rules and regulations. In my opinion it is IMMORAL to create a biography that willfully omits materials that might vindicate him, no matter how unconvincing those materials may be. The WP:Due weight rule does not say no mention of the minority point of view can be allowed. There is not a single reference to Pendergrast's work. According to the page as it stands, the reader would never know a comprehensive argument for Sandusky's innocence had ever been made. This, again, is IMMORAL. This is a man's life, and his guilt and possible innocence should be fairly weighed in a public document claiming authority of an encylopedia. As for @Zareth's claim that "The subject was obviously chosen for his high-profile status (sells more books that way)" the Pendergrast explains that publishing the book was almost impossible. Nobody wanted to touch it. So, not obvious at all. When a notable lifelong contributor to the literature debunking recovered memories writes a book about recovered memory therapy abuse in a high profile case, a book with a blurb from the matriarch of psychological establishment's criticism of recovered memory, Elizabeth Loftus, it warrants a brief mention I'm sorry to inform you. @ValarianB writes that Pendergrast's book received "A lone mention in Skeptic Magazine along with a lot of primary source links to the book. That is pretty much textbook promotional." The reason Pendergrast's book on Sandusky was extensively analyzed in Skeptic magazine was because they knew nobody was going to read it. It's not "textbook" promotion, but the last opportunity for Pendergrast's arguments to see the light of day. Effectively half of the book's argument has been made available in the Skeptic article, highly unusual for a book review I'm sure you will agree. Not "textbook" at all. To summarize, I find all the reasons offered to keep Pendergrast's book out of the Sandusky article highly biased to the point of mental retardation. I'm going to leave you now to read books (not online articles) and write books (not online articles). Enjoy your REEEE while it lasts. (CC: @Aerkem) 113.11.226.208 (talk) 17:56, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
- I wouldn't state that I'm happy with the edit. Just not as opposed. I stated what I stated based on WP:Due weight and the aforementioned BLP noticeboard discussion about this. We can take the matter to that noticeboard again, but I'd rather not. Also, since this page is on my watchlist, there is no need to ping me to it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 11:10, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Flyer22 Reborn: I am happy that you find the edit okay, although I am a bit surprised at your reason. You seem to say that the case can be viewed only through the judicial lens. Justice and crime are related, but not identical topics though, and I do not see why the psychological point of view should be subordinate to the judicial point of view. As it stands, this article is heavily biaised towards the judicial point of view, to the point of mentioning procedural trivia that seem out of place in a biography. I wonder if you would give the same deference to a foreign judicial system. Aerkem (talk) 11:18, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
- That edit is okay, I suppose since it briefly puts the repressed memory stuff into the context of requesting a new trial. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:16, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
- It is definitely time to push for an innocence section. How is it that Allan Myer's statement that he gave to Joe Amendola's investigator not on the Misplaced Pages anywhere? The emails from Jonelle Eschbach essentially stating they made up the allegations. Allan Myers's letter to the editor. Certainly John Ziegler's With the Benefit of Hindsight is on par with Most Hated Man in America. But the evidence that has come out in the last 11 years shows that Jerry Sandusky is very clearly innocent. Graham Spanier's book was a little lacking. But he sure did a great job demolishing the Freeh report. https://www.bigtrial.net/2022/10/a-shower-of-lies.html Wikinovice1 (talk) 17:08, 27 April 2023 (UTC)