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{{Old AfD multi |date=16 January 2023 |result='''keep''' |page=15.ai |date2=2 December 2024 |result2='''Delete''' |page2=15.ai (2nd nomination)}}
{{Old AfD multi |date=16 January 2023 |result='''keep''' |page=15.ai |date2=2 December 2024 |result2='''Delete''' |page2=15.ai (2nd nomination)}}
{{Not a forum}}
{{DYK talk|9 July|2022|entry=... that the developer of ''']''' claims that as little as 15 seconds of a person's voice is sufficient to clone it up to human standards using ]?|nompage=Template:Did you know nominations/15.ai}}
{{DYK talk|9 July|2022|entry=... that the developer of ''']''' claims that as little as 15 seconds of a person's voice is sufficient to clone it up to human standards using ]?|nompage=Template:Did you know nominations/15.ai}}
Revision as of 09:50, 20 December 2024
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the 15.ai article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
A fact from 15.ai appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know column on 9 July 2022 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
Did you know... that the developer of 15.ai claims that as little as 15 seconds of a person's voice is sufficient to clone it up to human standards using artificial intelligence?
15.ai was one of the Engineering and technology good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
How should the current status of the 15.ai web site be listed in the infobox?
A. Under maintenance.
B. Abandoned.
C. Omit the Current Status field from the infobox.
Please enter A, B, or C, with a brief statement in the Survey. Please not reply to other editors in the Survey. That is what the Discussion section is for.
(invited by the bot) Leave it out. WP:Ver requires sourcability for whatever is put in there and there is no source in the article for any such characterization. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:35, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
However, there is a source for the website being down for maintenance since 2022.
Since this was clearly from DRN, I wonder what its participants have to say and am surprised they have not commented yet. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
This throws a wrench in things... the inline citation confused me into thinking it cited the entire sentence. I'm now not sure what we should do. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:17, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
Regarding DRN. Two of the participants at the DRN have said the conversation went on too long and noted they did not wish to participate in the RfC or continued dispute, one of the editors was indef blocked for a different issue, one of the editors didn't participate in the DRN at all basically, and I have been busy (as my userpage indicates) with school. That should explain why they have not commented. Brocade River Poems (She/They)02:15, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
I stand corrected! Abandoned, nonetheless. That's not a permanent state, it can be revised if that ever changes. – SJ +03:33, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
C, because there is no requirement to have the website current status listed in the infobox. Second Choice B. I find the argument of using an archive from the website as under maintenance from 2022 as a source to be uncompelling. I could equally point to the https://pony.best// Credits page, a more recent page, which lists 15.ai as "Stuff I've worked on", past tense with a link to the Misplaced Pages article, to indicate the project is abandoned, and it'd probably be equally dubious, no? I mean, it isn't listed as "Currently Working" or "Current Projects", it is quite plainly past tense. Anyways, I don't realistically believe that would be an appropriate source for the claim, nor do I think a 2 year old "under maintenance" notice is a valid source to say it's under maintenance. At some point the fact that the project is abandoned becomes self-evident, but we don't have any real sources to substantiate its status. Better to just leave it out. --Brocade River Poems (She/They)02:00, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
My original opinion was made under the assumption that a secondary and reliable source claimed the site was down for maintenance since September 2022. Since the assumption has been proven false, I now also support C per Brocade. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:04, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
There's no specific timeframe, though 30 days is the general limit. In this case, I think a WP:SNOW close would be appropriate, given the sheer weight of editors in favor of option C after two weeks of discussion. — The Hand That Feeds You:20:38, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
Especially given how the only (either one or three, depending on whether they're telling the truth in their appeal) editor(s) who were in favor of another option decided to start an ANI thread instead of respond to the RfC. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:59, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
C In the interests of ending edit wars, I think removing this from the Infobox would help this disputed fact from being a flashpoint. Liz06:16, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
I wonder if this RfC is still needed. I haven't followed the dispute but it looks to me like it might only exist because a sock-farm was trying to keep option A and with this sock farm now hopefully gone it might be unnecessary. I appreciate one editor is supporting B above while the rest are supporting C and maybe the RfC having started it's too late but it just looks to me like the sort of thing which could have been resolved via normal discussion were it not for the sock farm. Nil Einne (talk) 17:40, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
It seems the original cause of this entire thing was caused just because of the current status section- It is very disputed between multiple people and many accounts can be created for spamming/reverting the final decision- This dispute has been active for about a month, and it is taking way too long in my opinion Cooldudeseven7join in on the tea talk17:48, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
it just looks to me like the sort of thing which could have been resolved via normal discussion were it not for the sock farm. Incidentally, it had actually been resolved normally. The entire reason it became an RfC was because the sockfarm returned and reverted the edits that were decided upon at DRN. Everyone who participated in the DRN case had no problems with the proposed solution that it should be removed from the infobox. Brocade River Poems (She/They)05:25, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
I should have warned you sooner, but there will likely be one person who will resist and attempt that you make to do such edit. I personally am fine with this decision. Thought 1915 (talk) 18:43, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
I agree that it should be rephrased to past tense -- that user does seem to be edit warring against the general interest of most people here? Any thoughts? DrawWikiped05:06, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
I would like to mention that this is the fifth (5th) talk page topic regarding this very question, and that each time, a majority of editors seemed to agree with the suggested change. Thought 1915 (talk) 16:17, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
Software can exist in the present tense long past its last update, as people continue to use it. Web apps can not. I see no meaningful sense in which this still exists today. I converted the rest of the article to past tense. @RocketKnightX: don't get into a revert war; if you want the project to still be active, convince its authors to bring it back to life. – SJ +17:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Sirfurboy and User:Pokelego999, I rewrote this article from scratch last night. You can see the edit history to prove it. I even asked the closing admin to not give me the old version of the article because I wanted to do the subject justice. I even asked User:Liz what the proper steps I should take to make sure that I was doing everything correctly. I spent hours writing up a neutral, original version of the article as a draft, submitted it to AfC, and continued to make edits throughout the day. Please reconsider the speedy deletion, because it isn't an unaltered and unimproved version of the article. GregariousMadness (talk to me!) 15:40, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
I'm admittedly not too involved in this discussion, so I'll refrain from saying much, but I have no issues with keeping this article around since it seems to meet bare notability and can be verified as being a new version of the article via the creator's edit history. I'd appreciate an admin verifying the edit histories are different so as to dispel all reasonable doubt. However, I do have concerns about the fact there's an ongoing deletion review for the subject. I'm admittedly unsure as to how it's handled when the article is recreated while the deletion review is ongoing, but I do have concerns it may interfere with the discussion. It's still not grounds for a speedy to my knowledge, but there may be problems there. Magneton Considerer:Pokelego999 (Talk) (Contribs) 15:50, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
That's my mistake. When I was creating the draft, it said that approvals could take up to 8 weeks, so I decided to submit it and continue editing it. I wasn't expecting it to be approved so quickly. But it's definitely not true that what I wrote is an unchanged draft, which was the rationale for this speedy delete. I spent so much time researching and writing this up, and this version of the article has a lot of sources that weren't present in the now-deleted one. The second AfD for the original article was closed as a "delete" due to the sockpuppetry and canvassing, so my new research that was posted after the re-listing was never taken into consideration in the AfD. This version of the article includes all of the new sources that meet reliability and significant coverage. GregariousMadness (talk to me!) 16:13, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
Reliable sources
I'm posting this as a reference. According to archived discussions on the Teahouse, a good rule of thumb is three independent and reliable sources that demonstrate significant coverage to establish WP:GNG. Here are the major reliable sources that provide significant coverage for the subject:
United Daily News. Reliable as one of the largest and oldest-running newspapers in Taiwan. Listed as one of the three major Chinese-language newspapers in List of newspapers in Taiwan. Significant coverage includes an overview of the technology behind 15.ai, particularly noting its ease of use and limited data, and also discusses how 15.ai works, its features, and the viral videos that have spawned using 15.ai. Over 400 (approximate since the article is written in Chinese) words of coverage.
Den Fami Nico Gamer. Reliable as listed in WP:VG/RS. Significant coverage includes an overview of the DeepMoji technology used for emotiveness, applications of the voices not restricted to viral videos, and how to use it. Over 400 (approximate since the article is written in Japanese) words of coverage.
AUTOMATON. While not listed in WP:VG/RS, AUTOMATON is one of the largest and reputable gaming news outlets in Japan, and has been used in multiple GA's like Only Up!, Visions of Mana, and Sprigatito, Floragato, and Meowscarada. Significant coverage includes DeepMoji, a list of characters available on the application, examples of video content users have created with the platform, an overview of the pronunciation capabilities of the model, as well as a mention of how to use ARPAbet strings. Almost 800 (approximate since the article is written in Japanese) words of coverage.
Towards Data Science. While the website itself is written on Medium (which is not considered reliable), Medium is only being used as a vessel to host the article itself (similar to how Google Docs can be used to host an article), which is part of a very popular newsletter called Towards Data Science, which has almost 800K followers on social media. Following alone means nothing in determining the reliability of a source, but Rionaldi Chandraseta, the author of the article, is an IEEE-published machine learning specialist who has published papers that are listed on Google Scholar . The newsletter has a solid editorial board that consists of multiple masters and PhD's in machine learning and computer science. Over 1,000 words of English-language coverage detailing every facet of 15.ai, from its capabilities to its underlying research.
Yongqiang Li . Since the article is locked to foreigners without an account, I asked a friend to translate this for me. The article goes into great detail about the technology behind 15.ai and talks about its features, its future, and potential problems. The author is a professor at the Harbin Institute of Technology and has multiple publications listed on Google Scholar .
Eurogamer. Reliable as listed in WP:VG/RS. While the main focus of the article isn't 15.ai, it goes into detail the controversy and Twitter exchange that happened when Voiceverse NFT misappropriated 15.ai's work. From However, in now-deleted tweets, Voiceverse was found to have boasted about using its tech for the voice of a cartoon character - which was in fact created using 15.ai, a popular non-commercial text-to-speech service. to "Hey @fifteenai we are extremely sorry about this," Voiceverse NFT wrote. "The voice was indeed taken from your platform, which our marketing team used without giving proper credit. Chubbiverse team has no knowledge of this. We will make sure this never happens again.", this is about 300 words of coverage.
Stevivor. After doing more research, I found that Steven Wright, the author of this article, also writes for Inverse, a solid and well-known technology and gaming publication. In addition, Stevivor is reliable and independent, and it is the most-read independent gaming news network in the Oceanic region.
Kotaku. While Kotaku is in WP:VG/RS, it's still debated whether an article from the "Odds and Ends" category is considered "News". There is no clear consensus to this, but the description for the "Odds and Ends" category is "Odds and Ends - Gaming Reviews, News, Tips and More.". The argument in the previous AfD was that this article did not meet reliability, although it met independence and significant coverage.
Game Informer, PC Gamer, and Rock, Paper, Shotgun All three of these sources are found under WP:VG/RS, but there has been a debate whether these three met significant coverage. While they all pass WP:100WORDS, it is not a Misplaced Pages policy and their significant coverage can be debated.
NME. WP:RS notes NME is reliable in its expertise, and it has been debated whether gaming is one of their areas of expertise. The Misplaced Pages article for NME states that this is so, and gaming is listed as one of NME's header sections, but there has been debate whether NME's expertise extends outside of music. Similar coverage to Eurogamer, but with fewer words, but still above the threshhold for WP:100WORDS (which, again, is not Misplaced Pages policy).
However, some of these have been contested in some form, the arguments for which I personally disagreed with. Think of these sources as you will. I still haven't gone over many of the the sources that are used in the newly written page, but I will continue to do my research and update this.
Yes, I'm aware that this is a contentious article that was submitted to AfD. But the AfD was closed largely due to the misbehaving of new Misplaced Pages editors, who are likely to be children, which is not surprising given the popularity of the application among younger people. I'm committed to doing this subject justice, and I argue that this subject not only meets the bare minimum of notability, but meets it well-within question. GregariousMadness (talk to me!) 17:11, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
These sources look largely reliable to me. It was a large part of why I accepted the original draft in the first place, since it's rare to see a draft with such good sourcing. I personally believe this meets notability, especially since it's been clarified outright this is much expanded from the deleted article. Magneton Considerer:Pokelego999 (Talk) (Contribs) 18:45, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
Thank you. Sorry for all the trouble. I never meant for all this to happen. I can get carried away at times and I felt a fire light up inside me when I was writing the new article. I really hope this version gets to stay. GregariousMadness (talk to me!) 21:42, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
