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Revision as of 14:56, 24 December 2024 editMikrobølgeovn (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users12,589 edits Can the Iran-Iraq War be considered an Iraqi Victory?← Previous edit Revision as of 15:34, 24 December 2024 edit undoKiddKrazy (talk | contribs)80 edits Can the Iran-Iraq War be considered an Iraqi Victory?: ReplyTags: Mobile edit Mobile app edit Android app edit App talk replyNext edit →
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::::::@] Oh. Makes sense. Thanks for explanation. ] (]) 14:14, 30 September 2024 (UTC) ::::::@] Oh. Makes sense. Thanks for explanation. ] (]) 14:14, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
{{ping|KiddKrazy}} Since you were pleased with the explanation, why did you three months later? ] (]) 14:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC) {{ping|KiddKrazy}} Since you were pleased with the explanation, why did you three months later? ] (]) 14:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

:@] The more i research this war, the more it becomes an Iraqi victory and a war caused by Iran's Radical rhetoric.
:Iran starts the war by interference in Iraq's affairs (a breach of the 1975 Algiers Agreement) by way of inciting sectarian hatred in Iraq and numerous border conflicts against Iraq. Iranian-backed terrorists also attempted to assassinate Tariq Aziz (Assyrian Ba'ath Party official) when he visited a University in Baghdad, instead killing dozens of students. Iran regards the 1975 Algiers Treaty void on 14 sep. 1980 and Iraq nullifies it on 17 sep. 1980.
:Iraq launches an invasion 22. sep 1980 (what's considered the beginning of the war) as a response to Iranian intrusions, they initially capture Zayn al Qaws and Seif Saad, areas promised to Iraq by the Algiers Treaty. They also invade Qasre Shihrin to put further pressure on Iran.
:On 28. sep 1980, the UN Security Council issues a resolution demanding a ceasefire, which Iraq agreed to, but Iran boycotted the session altogether. Iraq then continued invading to put further pressure on Iran to accept, to no avail.
:In 1982, Iraq retreats from their captured Iranian land in an effort to reconcile with Iran. However Iran continued to reject all attempts for ceasefire, instead presenting Iraq with ceasefire on impossible terms.
:Since then, the war devolves into trench warfare and both sides lose a lot of materials and money. Iraq continues to accept ceasefire attempts and Iran continues their hateful rhetoric.
:In 1987, when Iranians attempted to capture Basra, they failed spectacularly, losing their forward momentum by enormous casualties taken and only captures slivers of land in Basra.
:In April 1988, after months of Iraqi preparing, the Iraqis swiftly liberated Al-Faw. Surprised by the overwhelming success, they expanded it into a larger offensive to drive Iran out of Iraq. The offensive was a decisive Iraqi victory, with the Iranian forces on the run and Iraq liberating occupied land in Iraq and recapturing land in Iran (9600 sq.km)
:The swift and decisive Iraqi victories led to the Iranian government to accept the ceasefire and quit fighting. The Iraqis continued to occupy 9600 sq.km of Iranian land and maintained full sovereignty over the Shatt al-Arab. It was in 1990, when Iran and Iraq signed a formal peace treaty, that it went to status quo ante bellum.
:Both countries were economically devastated by this war, though Iran suffered higher losses. Iran suffered also higher casualties and lost land. The Iraqi Army was strengthened, becoming the 4th largest army in the world. Iraq also gained powerful new allies in the Middle East.
:Iran's goal in the war was to topple the Baghdad government and install a theocracy.
:Iraq's goal in the war was to defend against Iranian aggression and weaken Iran.
:Iraq achieved its goal, and therefore it won.
:Since those three months passed, i had been doing a lot more research and it became clear that the war is very different from the common narrative. ] (]) 15:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


== Too little is written about the provocations and attacks of Iran leading to the war. == == Too little is written about the provocations and attacks of Iran leading to the war. ==

Revision as of 15:34, 24 December 2024

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Section sizes
Section size for Iran–Iraq War (102 sections)
Section name Byte
count
Section
total
(Top) 32,509 32,509
Background 15 26,882
Iran–Iraq relations 2,292 2,292
After the Iranian Revolution 12,705 12,705
Iranian military preparations 6,551 6,551
Iraqi military preparations 1,460 1,460
Khuzestan 1,188 1,188
Border conflicts leading up to the war 2,671 2,671
Course of the war 66 161,081
1980: Iraqi invasion 9,590 13,155
First Battle of Khorramshahr 1,687 1,687
Iraqi advance stalls 1,878 1,878
1981: Stalemate 1,847 17,760
Battle of Dezful 6,511 6,511
Attack on H3 2,602 2,602
Introduction of human wave attacks 4,309 4,309
Operation Eighth-Imam 1,356 1,356
Operation Tariq al-Quds 1,135 1,135
1982: Iraqi retreat, Iranian offensive 1,359 9,737
Operation Fath ol-Mobin 1,999 1,999
Operation Beit ol-Moqaddas 1,952 3,260
Second Battle of Khorramshahr 1,308 1,308
State of Iraqi armed forces 3,119 3,119
Early international response 7,971 12,468
Ceasefire proposal 4,497 4,497
Iran invades Iraq and Iraqi tactics in response 4,355 11,787
Operation Ramadan (First Battle of Basra) 5,305 5,305
Final operations of 1982 2,127 2,127
1983–84: Stalemate and war of attrition 2,223 16,753
Operation Before the Dawn 2,270 2,270
Dawn Operations 3,388 3,388
Iran's change in tactics 4,128 4,128
Battle of the Marshes 4,744 4,744
Tanker war and the war of the cities 524 13,411
Attacks on shipping 8,291 8,291
Attacks on cities 3,317 3,317
Strategic situation in 1984 1,279 1,279
1985–86 Iraqi offensives 2,207 5,577
Operation Badr 3,370 3,370
Iranian counteroffensives 3,977 15,890
First Battle of al-Faw 3,480 3,480
Battle of Mehran 1,810 1,810
Situation at the end of 1986 2,932 2,932
Iraq's dynamic defense strategy 3,691 3,691
1987–88: Renewed Iranian Offensives 1,473 4,706
Operation Karbala-4 1,225 1,225
Karbala-5 (Sixth Battle of Basra) 1,015 1,015
Karbala-6 993 993
Iranian war-weariness 3,916 6,327
Strategic situation in late 1987 2,411 2,411
Air and tanker war 6,518 6,518
1988: Final Iraqi offensives 2,193 15,168
Iran's Kurdistan Operations 2,937 2,937
Second Battle of al-Faw 3,099 3,099
Operation Praying Mantis 1,203 1,203
Iranian counteroffensive 739 739
Operation Forty Stars 1,619 1,619
Tawakalna ala Allah operations 3,378 3,378
Iran accepts the ceasefire 5,308 11,758
Operation Mersad and end of the war 6,450 6,450
Aftermath 14 22,392
Casualties 5,410 5,410
Peace talks and postwar situation 10,932 10,932
Economic situation 3,839 3,839
Science and technology 2,197 2,197
Domestic situation 23 14,817
Iraq 2,326 4,607
Gaining civilian support 2,281 2,281
Iran 4,355 10,187
Civil unrest 1,408 1,408
Economy 4,424 4,424
Comparison of Iraqi and Iranian military strength 5,945 5,945
Foreign support to Iraq and Iran 5,354 18,532
Iraq 4,611 6,950
Financial support 2,339 2,339
Iran 4,032 4,032
Aid to both countries 2,196 2,196
U.S. involvement 3,498 12,325
U.S. embargo 2,446 2,446
U.S. knowledge of Iraqi chemical weapons use 935 935
Iraqi attack on U.S. warship 3,202 3,202
U.S. military actions toward Iran 1,077 2,244
Iran Air Flight 655 1,167 1,167
Iraq's use of chemical weapons 16,789 16,789
Comparison to other conflicts 11,592 11,592
Iran and Iraq's modern relationship 5,814 5,814
Legacy and memory 3,540 3,540
See also 733 4,456
Notable Iranian veterans 2,013 2,013
Notable Iranian casualties 463 463
Notable Iraqi veterans 401 401
Notable Iraqi casualties 73 73
Persons 354 354
Memoirs 147 147
Stories 132 132
Relevant conflicts 140 140
Notes 618 618
References 63 4,642
Citations 31 31
Sources 4,548 4,548
Further reading 1,430 1,430
External links 1,827 1,827
Total 345,191 345,191


USS Stark Incident

Currently the section for this notes that an Iraqi Mirage fighter jet fired the missiles at the USS Stark--but shouldn't this read more like "a modified Dassault Falcon 50" fired the missiles, or something along those lines (in correct wikipedia syntax of course)

I didn't want to make the edit because I've got no idea how to cite anything, but the USS Stark Incident page cites the following (along with two other relevant citations): https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-modified-iraqi-falcon-50-business-jet-nearly-destroyed-us-frigate-66772

Worth noting I suppose that the Stark initially thought it was a Mirage fighter, perhaps that led to the confusion? 2603:8080:7400:DF2:452:8089:9BB5:7889 (talk) 17:52, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

How the war started, and the addition of Iranian attempting to provoke war.

I have been studying the Iran-Iraq war for a couple of years now, and something the wikipedia page does not cover is how much iran actually provoked Iraq into an attack, also the page includes stuff about how Saddams regime wanted to take kuzhesthan, but this dosent have much sufficent evidence, and alot of sources differ, expescially considering Iraq had accepted a cease-fire on september the 28th, 4 days after the war offically started, which they wouldnt have accepted if they had wanted to taken iranian land,

"Within days, Iraqi forces invaded Iran. At the same time, Iraq bombed Iranian air bases and other strategic targets. In the week following the invasion, the UN Security Council called for a cease-fire and appealed to Iran and Iraq to settle their dispute peacefully. The Iraqi president replied, saying that Iraq would accept a cease-fire provided Iran did as well. Iran’s response, however, was negative. The war thus continued and in succeeding years was extended to the gulf area."Source,

Also before this, Saddam had constanly praised and congraulated Khomeini on his success, with Saddam quoting in one of his speeches, "We congraulate the Iranian people on there freedom.', even after Khomeini announced that the shias must rise up and get rid of the "Infidel" Saddam Hussein, Saddam responded yet again with praise, just wanting to establish mutual ties, instead, Iran constantly had border skirmishes, and launched artillery strikes onto the Iraqi side of the shatt-al arab, and even on populated towns.

The Iran–Iraq War: 1980–1988, Osprey Publishing "It is difficult to pinpoint when tensions began to build, but there were frequent cross-border skirmishes, largely at Iran's instigation. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini called on Iraqis to overthrow the Ba'ath government, which was received with considerable anger in Baghdad. On 17 July 1979, despite Khomeini's call, Saddam gave a speech praising the Iranian Revolution and called for an Iraqi-Iranian friendship based on non-interference in each other's internal affairs. When Khomeini rejected Saddam's overture by calling for Islamic revolution in Iraq, Saddam was alarmed. Iran's new Islamic administration was regarded in Baghdad as an irrational, existential threat to the Ba'ath government, especially because the Ba'ath party, having a secular nature, discriminated and posed a threat to the Shia movement in Iraq, whose clerics were Iran's allies within Iraq and whom Khomeini saw as oppressed."

If anyone wants aswell, i have documented violations by the Iranians on iraqi land pre-war, which are up to a 100 documented cases of Iranian violations of Iraqi soverignity, the war (unoffically) started on september 4th according to the Iraqi's, which wouldnt be far-feched, due to the fact the Iranians were already attacking Iraqi towns with artillery and attempted to assainate Tariz Aziz, which failed, and instead killed several Iraqi Students, which was one of the reasons Iraq decided to cross the border, the war was meant to last only a week, just to warn the Iranians, and attempt to force-khomeini into argeeing to non-aggression, which is why Iraq agreed to UN security councils proposal for peace.

The Myth of Iraq wanting kuzehstan is extremely debunkable, it has been proven countless times, that Iraq did not want to annex any Iranian-land, both Saddam publically declared this, and so did his Ambassdor.


"We have no claim or ambition in any Iranian territory at all, we have just said that defintely." - Sa'dun Hammadi

"So the Iraqi army will withdraw from the east bank of the Shatt-al-arab?" - Interviewer

"Certainly." - Sa'dun Hammadi

I have loads of archived footage, and videos, and documents etc etc if anyone wants more proof, the above interview was filmed, i have the footage of it if anyone wants, i am just seeking approval to make the large-ish edit to the article, to include a more correct version. Local Mandaean (talk) 02:36, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Sino Soviet split and Arab Israeli conflict

The USSR supported Iraq while China supported Iran. Also Israel launched an airstrike on the Iraqi nuke reactor Operation Opera 2A00:23EE:2738:4326:451E:A45E:F52B:498B (talk) 13:13, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Can the Iran-Iraq War be considered an Iraqi Victory?

The largely popular consensus around the war is that it was a stalemate until the war ended in 1988. This is largely incorrect, due to Iraq breaking the stalemate in 1988, months before the ceasefire was signed, which is what many consider as the end of the war, with 5 decisive victories which expelled all Iranian forces from Iraq and regained ≈9000 km² of Iranian land. This, along with Iraq being able to force Iran to the peace table, despite Iran's repeated provocations before the Iraqi invasion of Iran in 1980 and Iran's repeated refusals of any attempts at peace, whether it be by the United Nations or the Iraqi government. In addition to this, Iraq had become a powerhouse as a result of an unpreccedented military buildup. These points alone would usually constitute victory for a nation, but yet they do not in the case of Iraq. Instead, the war gets labeled as Inconclusive, largely due to the stalemate from 1982-1987 and Iraq giving back their captured land to Iran in 16 August 1990. KiddKrazy (talk) 12:12, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I also wonder why certain editors always revert the territorial change to Status quo ante bellum when the Iraqi occupation of Iranian land didn't end until many years after 1988 (which to be fair the note states) Damian Lew (talk) 12:29, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
@Damian Lew i tried to change it to include that, but someone reverted it saying that the infobox needs to be simplistic and that is what the note is for. Still though, i think the war can be considered an Iraqi Victory, largely due to the points i made. KiddKrazy (talk) 12:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
To quote WP:RESULT: The "result" parameter has often been a source of contention. Particular attention should be given to the advice therein. The infobox does not have the scope to reflect nuances, and should be restricted to "X victory" or "Inconclusive". MrOllie (talk) 13:19, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
@MrOllie True, but could there be an argument for changing it from "Inconclusive" to "Iraqi victory" based on the points i made? KiddKrazy (talk) 13:32, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
That would not be an accurate summary of the article (particularly the 'Aftermath' section) or the sources it cites. Making your own argument, not based direct statements from sources, is original research, and is not how Misplaced Pages is written. MrOllie (talk) 14:11, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
@MrOllie Oh. Makes sense. Thanks for explanation. KiddKrazy (talk) 14:14, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@KiddKrazy: Since you were pleased with the explanation, why did you disregard it three months later? Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 14:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

@Mikrobølgeovn The more i research this war, the more it becomes an Iraqi victory and a war caused by Iran's Radical rhetoric.
Iran starts the war by interference in Iraq's affairs (a breach of the 1975 Algiers Agreement) by way of inciting sectarian hatred in Iraq and numerous border conflicts against Iraq. Iranian-backed terrorists also attempted to assassinate Tariq Aziz (Assyrian Ba'ath Party official) when he visited a University in Baghdad, instead killing dozens of students. Iran regards the 1975 Algiers Treaty void on 14 sep. 1980 and Iraq nullifies it on 17 sep. 1980.
Iraq launches an invasion 22. sep 1980 (what's considered the beginning of the war) as a response to Iranian intrusions, they initially capture Zayn al Qaws and Seif Saad, areas promised to Iraq by the Algiers Treaty. They also invade Qasre Shihrin to put further pressure on Iran.
On 28. sep 1980, the UN Security Council issues a resolution demanding a ceasefire, which Iraq agreed to, but Iran boycotted the session altogether. Iraq then continued invading to put further pressure on Iran to accept, to no avail.
In 1982, Iraq retreats from their captured Iranian land in an effort to reconcile with Iran. However Iran continued to reject all attempts for ceasefire, instead presenting Iraq with ceasefire on impossible terms.
Since then, the war devolves into trench warfare and both sides lose a lot of materials and money. Iraq continues to accept ceasefire attempts and Iran continues their hateful rhetoric.
In 1987, when Iranians attempted to capture Basra, they failed spectacularly, losing their forward momentum by enormous casualties taken and only captures slivers of land in Basra.
In April 1988, after months of Iraqi preparing, the Iraqis swiftly liberated Al-Faw. Surprised by the overwhelming success, they expanded it into a larger offensive to drive Iran out of Iraq. The offensive was a decisive Iraqi victory, with the Iranian forces on the run and Iraq liberating occupied land in Iraq and recapturing land in Iran (9600 sq.km)
The swift and decisive Iraqi victories led to the Iranian government to accept the ceasefire and quit fighting. The Iraqis continued to occupy 9600 sq.km of Iranian land and maintained full sovereignty over the Shatt al-Arab. It was in 1990, when Iran and Iraq signed a formal peace treaty, that it went to status quo ante bellum.
Both countries were economically devastated by this war, though Iran suffered higher losses. Iran suffered also higher casualties and lost land. The Iraqi Army was strengthened, becoming the 4th largest army in the world. Iraq also gained powerful new allies in the Middle East.
Iran's goal in the war was to topple the Baghdad government and install a theocracy.
Iraq's goal in the war was to defend against Iranian aggression and weaken Iran.
Iraq achieved its goal, and therefore it won.
Since those three months passed, i had been doing a lot more research and it became clear that the war is very different from the common narrative. KiddKrazy (talk) 15:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Too little is written about the provocations and attacks of Iran leading to the war.

In the "prelude" section, not much is written about the provocations of Iran, despite it being a major reason for the war, it is mentioned in passing as if its a small detail. Some key details regarding provocations are not even written about here.

I translated the Farsi Misplaced Pages page regarding the war and it included speeches Khomeini made calling for an overthrow of the Ba'ath government, Iranian newspaper articles about Iranian attacks against Iraq before the war, the attempted assassination of Tariq Aziz and lots more information.

They also write about the supposed "fact" that Saddam wanted to take over Khuzestan, when this can be disproved. Both by statements issued by Saddam and his ministers saying they had no interest in a land grab and wanted to spread the message that Khomeini's regime could not threaten Iraq, which makes sense regarding previous Iranian provocations and by the UN resolution to stop the war passed shortly after the outbreak of full on war in sep. 1980, where Iraq accepted but Iran denied.

Local Mandaean raised this issue before, though it went unanswered.

So the question is: Why? Why are key details of the prelude to the war left out, as if to spread the false narrative that Iraq invaded unprovoked and out of opportunism? KiddKrazy (talk) 14:01, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Broken link

Ref. 126: "Viewpoints of the Iranian political and military elites". Archived from the original on 3 March 2016. Retrieved 31 December 2015.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.34.103.21 (talk) 19:59, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
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