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Latest revision as of 18:44, 28 December 2024

This is an archive of past discussions about Ariana Grande. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Spotify metrics in lead

Per WP:BADCHART, her statistics being the most streamed person on Spotify etc cannot be in the lead as it goes against Misplaced Pages's content guidelines that charts pertaining to one retailer/music provider should not be used. Ergo, this is the same reason why iTunes or Amazon Music charts are not used in Misplaced Pages articles. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 14:43, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

The 98 billion info should still be re-added. It's important, as it as its describes her as the most streamed artist in general, and there is no mention of Spotify or other provider in it. Mirrored7 (talk) 18:58, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

@Ben0006 Please re-add the 98 billion data. Thanks. Mirrored7 (talk) 19:01, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Upon reviewing WP:BADCHART, PHShanghai's edit was indeed consistent with that guideline (BADCHART and WP:CHART apply to prose as well as discography charts). Unless there is a compelling reason (and consensus) to bypass a Misplaced Pages content guideline (and I don't see either here), this shouldn't be readded. Aoi (青い) (talk) 19:16, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

In what way goes this sentence: "With over 98 billion streams globally, she is the most-streamed female act as of 2021", aginst the guideline? It's described without naming any provider like Amazon/Spotify specifically. Isn't it the reason why it was removed in the first place? @Aoi Mirrored7 (talk) 20:00, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the guideline's intention is that a single retailer chart is ok to use, just as long as you don't say which chart. That would be even worse. I think the problem is not with including a count of Spotify streams, but in the use of a Spotify chart that ranks that count against others. That's a fair point. While Spotify is a major player in streaming, it is only one platform. Its counts are not necessarily representative of streaming activity across the entire internet. Which is a bias the guideline is about avoiding. I assume the 98 billion figure is across all platforms? Where does it come from, is it sourced?--Escape Orbit 21:45, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, those numbers are in general. It's sourced by two reliable sources. I would agree to remove the Spotify numbers, they are still in her Achievements section anyway. However, her having 98 billion streams across all streaming platforms, is a rare achievement and one of her biggest accomplishments, which should stay in the lead. Especially as it not says Spotify or any other platform specifically. @Escape Orbit Mirrored7 (talk) 22:11, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think I misunderstood Mirrored's proposal. It looks like the 98 billion figure is sourced in the article body to this article, which reads in part, By age 28, she released six albums which have all gone platinum and has surpassed 98 billion streams globally – she's Spotify’s most streamed female artist of the past decade – while rapidly becoming one of the biggest pop stars of our generation with her powerhouse vocals and unmatched presence both on stage and with her fans. It's not clear whether the 98 billion streams is a Spotify-only figure, but Spotify is mentioned in the same sentence.

The article also doesn't say anything about being "the most streamed female act ." That's from a second source, this article, which says Grande recently surpassed 90 billion streams consumed worldwide, the most ever by a female artist.

The way the sentence is proposed to be written, it reads like WP:SYNTH since there's no source that directly references both the 98 billion streams and the "most-streamed female act" part. Given the Synth issue and the fact that the two sources cite different figures, I would propose simply leaving out the figure altogether and just say that, as of 2021, she was the most-streamed female artist worldwide. Aoi (青い) (talk) 22:14, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

First source was from April 2021, which stated that she recently surpassed 90 billion consumed streams, the most by ANY female artist. The second was from months later, November 2021, stating 98 billion. I would trust the later more, as it's the most recent. She only recently surpassed 50 billion streams on Spotify, so I doubt this comes from the platform only, especially in 2021. Those numbers are mostly from Spotify, Apple Music and YouTube.

Just re-add the senetence with the 98 billion data as it was. There's nothing wrong with that, it's all sourced and doesn't go against guidelines. Mirrored7 (talk) 22:44, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Unless you provide a source that explicitly states: "Grande has surpassed 98 billion streams across multiple streaming platforms including Spotify, Apple Music and YouTube", I don't see why the data should be re-added to the lead when there's not enough sources to support it.

Furthermore, why is this information lead-worthy and not on Ariana Grande singles discography or the Achievements section instead? What does her high amount of streams contribute to the conversation regarding her commercial success; which we can use other metrics for instead, like her amount of Billboard Hot 100 number ones? Why does the content need to be included? PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 08:51, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Why you need a source that explicitly states it. It's obvious why what is meant by that. Grande has been very successful in streaming, why not mention it in the lead? There are two major sources of the 98 billion streams info. So we should ignore her streaming accomplishments all together, just because you're not satisfied with it? Mirrored7 (talk) 09:26, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Because every text in every Misplaced Pages article requires a clear and reliable source, per WP:RS. Using two vague sources to conclude something is WP:SYNT. I didn't say her streaming accomplishments should be ignored; I said that her streaming accomplishments should be sourced properly according to the guidelines. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 11:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

They are sourced properly. It depends, on what mean with "properly". For me, the source has been very clear. And since the three years the source has been up, no one has ever complained about it either. Mirrored7 (talk) 13:10, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I look up the sources again. It 98 billion is the most recent reported number. "The most by any female artist", which makes her the most streamed female artist, AT LEAST for that time, that's why, "as of 2021". Since then, there has been no higher figure reported for any other female artist. It has no provider listed, it has TWO reliable sources. Mirrored7 (talk) 20:46, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Is it okay, to at least re-add "With over 98 billion streams globally, she is the most-streamed female act as of 2021" on the lead again. I don't think it's okay to ignore her streaming success in the lead, especially when she is primarily known for that. It has its sources and doesn't mention Spotify or other streaming platforms specifically. Mirrored7 (talk) 08:10, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

@PHShanghai @Escape Orbit @Aoi

Can you take part on the discussion again?

60 % of Grande's success has been in streaming. I don't think, it's right to ignore it all in the lead. I would be for it, to at least re-add the 98 billion streams part again, as it has no provider like Spotify or Apple Music linked to it. I also would be open to rephrase it differently. Mirrored7 (talk) 18:09, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I find the 98 billion streams part to have weak sourcing and overall just reads WP:PUFF. (Just because it is verifiable does not mean it needs to be included). Unless there is a broad, strong consensus that she is VERY NOTABLE for having very strong streaming numbers, it should not be readded. There are other artists like Drake who have amazing streaming records, but the numbers aren't mentioned in the lead. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 15:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Image

@19Arham:, the new picture that you changed to might potentially be copyvio, as there is no indication that "Our Movie Guide" was the one who actually filmed/interviewed Ariana at the Wicked premiere, and the description says "All materials provided by EPK.TV". PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 14:17, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay, thank you for the clarification. 19Arham (talk) 15:12, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 November 2024

This edit request to Ariana Grande has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add a section for "Controversies." To include in this section: Grande has been accused of cultural appropriation. Grande is ethnically Italian-American, and commentators have remarked upon her skin color appearing to change dramatically, altering her hair color and hairstyles, and adopting different vernacular and slang, in manners that make her appear ethnically ambiguous. Grande has been accused of "Blackfishing," in which "individuals often use makeup, Photoshop and cosmetic surgery to change their natural appearance" to look Black when they are not racially or ethnically black. At the 2018 Billboard Women in Music Awards, Grande also stated to fans, "thank you so much for coming to my Quinceanñra," despite not being Latino or Hispanic and never having a Quinceañera. Grande has also more recently been accused of "Asianfishing" after sharing photos of herself "her makeup seemingly imitating Asian features."

Of course, please edit as you see fit. Thank you! Allbirdy (talk) 10:43, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:CRITS, which is admittedly an essay, not an official policy, "Controversies" is not a recommended section title. Rather the title should address the specific issue at hand (such as "Allegations of cultural appropriation.") if it is determined to be WP:DUE under the WP:BLP policy. PianoDan (talk) 19:01, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

References

1. https://www.hercampus.com/school/columbia-barnard/ariana-grande-is-white-dont-let-her-make-us-forget-it/
2. https://www.vice.com/en/article/ariana-grandes-wax-figure-is-her-minus-pretending-to-be-black/
3. https://berkeleybside.com/thank-u-next-to-racial-identity-pop-star-ariana-grandes-record-of-racebending/
4. https://www.newsweek.com/ariana-grande-asianfishing-controversy-explained-1656807
5. https://www.billboard.com/music/awards/ariana-grande-woman-of-the-year-women-in-music-2018-speech-video-8489109/
6. https://www.newsweek.com/ariana-grande-asianfishing-controversy-explained-1656807

Not done for now: There are a number of issues with this request. First, there currently isn't a "controversies" section in this article (nor should there necessarily be one per PianoDan's comment). If there is another part of the article that you think this material would fit within, please let us know.

In addition, there are sourcing issues with this content. First, there are concerns about the reliability of Newsweek (see WP:NEWSWEEK), and I'm honestly not comfortable supporting its use in a WP:BLP article. There is also no consensus on whether Vice is a reliable source. The Billboard article supports the statement that Grande said, "thank you so much for coming to my Quinceañera" but doesn't mention anything about controversy coming from that statement.

I haven't assessed the other sources, but ideally this content should be discussed before it's added to the article. Aoi (青い) (talk) 03:02, 28 November 2024 (UTC) Aoi (青い) (talk) 03:02, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Re-instate Impact section

Grande used to have an impact section, however for some reason it was removed and merged into a different section. I see it has been said on here already that someone planned on reinstating it, but it hasn’t been done yet. Grande has had a massive impact, whereas Selena Gomez, who obviously has had impact but not to the scale of Grande’s, has an impact section on her page. I would appreciate it if the impact section is reinstated, especially now with the release of Wicked and with Grande’s recognition from Billboard as the 9th best pop-star of the 21st century and the only performer who debuted in the 2010’s to make an appearance in the top 10 TIA :) Olivergrandeee (talk) 13:05, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

@Olivergrandeee: Just be bold and reinstate it yourself. You don't typically need to ask permission to add content unless someone else reverts you. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:01, 28 November 2024 (UTC)